Simultaneous control of multiple locos using the App?

Bluetooth is limited to one connection at a time.

I imagine the Universal Remote has three radios - vs one in your phone.

Roving Sign posted:

Bluetooth is limited to one connection at a time.

I imagine the Universal Remote has three radios - vs one in your phone.

True, typically Bluetooth only allows for control connection to one device at a time.  That's why you can only connect to one Bluetooth speaker instead of multiple throughout home.   Perhaps why MTH took the WiFi approach for their smartphone/tablet app.  I can easily switch between two engines with the DCS app.   Works identical to pushing the ENG button on the DCS remote.

Ken,

I think Lionel will stay basic to create openings for third party developers - search for the BlueTrain app on the forum or web - he has full operational functions like the Cab2

here's a Lionel link with Bob K's link

I'm pretty sure the universal remote just sends out the addressed packets for the specific locomotive under each number, it only has one transceiver chip inside.

This is my theory, based on my experiences with Bluetooth, Lioncheif, LCS, DCS, WiFi and all other things technology & wireless that I deal with everyday.

I suspect that this issue with the Lionchief app only running one engine at a time may never be resolved. Based on my user experience with LC & LC+ engines, these engine require a constant "Keep Alive" signal from the controlling remote. What this means is if the remote ever loses communication or power the engine stops. Here is a simple test, start your LC or LC+ engine and while it is running, switch the power off to the remote. After a few seconds, the engine stops in its tracks.

I am not convinced the Universal remote truly uses Bluetooth standards to communicate to more than one engine at a time (just like the many LC & LC+ engines before Lionel introduced Bluetooth into the mix). The Bluetooth equipped engines have this technology solely for APP control from a Bluetooth equipped smartphone or tablet. Unfortunately, Lionel will need to obey specific rules when using Bluetooth radios on devices they do not manufacture (Tablets & Smartphones). As the engines need a "Keep Alive" signal to operate continuously, the APP on the phone would need to always switching between paired devices (And may need user confirmation before making that switch <-- this would be very annoying).

So why does the Universal Remote have Bluetooth built in? Simple answer, firmware upgrades from a Bluetooth enabled phone or tablet & future expansion of the device.

Adding Bluetooth was a quick and cheap way to add app control of Lioncheif engines, but it comes with its drawbacks. I suspect Bluetooth was picked because this is common technology already incorporated into almost every smartphone and tablet out there. The only other way to pull this off would be selling a "middle man" device that would act as the go between for the engines and the app, similar to the LCS & DCS WiFi equipment.

I think the Universal remote could be used as such a device which may overcome the single engine control in the LC App. The app would create a single Bluetooth link to the Universal remote and the Universal Remote could then create multiple links to the engines using its non-Bluetooth wireless connections as it does already. The Universal Remote now becomes the "Middle Man".

I do not have any experience with Bluerail equipped locomotives, but I suspect they do not need a "Keep Alive" signal to operate continuously. They are probably using an "obey last command until a new one arrives" model. The engine will keep doing what it is told forever until something tells it to do something else.

Lionchief evolved quickly in its short time being here. If Lionel would have known 4 years ago what it knows today, every LC & LC+ engine would have had Bluetooth installed from day 1 of the product line and there would have never been any engines that ran on 27MHz.

How Lionel overcomes the single engine control limitation in the LC app will be (technically) interesting.

It is totally incorrect to state that bluetooth can connect to or control only one engine at a time. I have simultaneously controlled three BlueRail equipped locos from a single app using the multi-train setting in the app. Remember that we are currently using the fifth iteration of bluetooth technology, which is far more powerful than the earlier versions.

BOB WALKER posted:

It is totally incorrect to state that bluetooth can connect to or control only one engine at a time.

The way Bluerail works, I agree. The way Lionchief works right now, not so much.

Everyone, thanks for the discussion, very informative!

H1000 - thanks for the detailed analysis and discussion!

Thanks for the link to BlueRail!   Bluerailtrains

Interesting - and I apologize for my out of date info posted upthread.

I understand you may be able to create a remote/app that can control multiple engines - but can you have multiple connections to each engine?

My understanding of the DCS wi-fi is you can have multiple instances of the app, any of which can control any train?

Bob,

Does the Bluerail App pair with the engines from within the app or does that need to be done on your Phone/Tablet outside of the App first?

You first open the BlueRail app and then it will automatically pair up with any powered locos within the operating range. Can only control three locos simultaneously. The app will maintain all custom settings for each loco independently.

You first open the BlueRail app and then it will automatically pair up with any powered locos within the operating range. Can only control three locos simultaneously. The app will maintain all custom settings for each loco independently.

Well here is one for the books. I currently have six BlueRail equipped locos, three track powered and three battery powered. As a test, I fired five of them up and when I opened the BlueRail app in the multi-train mode, all five came up with an individually identified throttle and were individually controllable! Now here's the punch-line:  BlueRail uses the latest low energy bluetooth  (BLE) which can support 40 channels simultaneously. Anybody want to run 40 locos at a time?

Roving Sign posted:

I understand you may be able to create a remote/app that can control multiple engines - but can you have multiple connections to each engine?

My understanding of the DCS wi-fi is you can have multiple instances of the app, any of which can control any train?

In a Bluetooth system, one controller can operate multiple trains, but a given train can only be connected to one remote. This is a different architecture than Legacy (one example) where a centralized control mechanism allows more two or more remotes to exert control over a single locomotive simultaneously. In contrast, a Bluetooth slave has only one master.

And in a belated response to an earlier question:

>...I am not convinced the Universal remote truly uses Bluetooth standards to communicate to more than one engine at a time...

we are indeed using the BLE standard for communication between locomotives and our universal remote or iOS/Android apps.

Railsounds posted:

Roving Sign posted:

I understand you may be able to create a remote/app that can control multiple engines - but can you have multiple connections to each engine?

My understanding of the DCS wi-fi is you can have multiple instances of the app, any of which can control any train?

In a Bluetooth system, one controller can operate multiple trains, but a given train can only be connected to one remote. This is a different architecture than Legacy (one example) where a centralized control mechanism allows more two or more remotes to exert control over a single locomotive simultaneously. In contrast, a Bluetooth slave has only one master.

And in a belated response to an earlier question:

>...I am not convinced the Universal remote truly uses Bluetooth standards to communicate to more than one engine at a time...

we are indeed using the BLE standard for communication between locomotives and our universal remote or iOS/Android apps.

Hi Rudy, I’m experiencing a dropout when using the APP with my iPhone or iPad when the locomotive is at a distance of more than 15 feet or if there is a building or structure between the iphone and locomotive. The throttle bottoms out and the disconnect notice shows up on the screen...next the locomotive stops and has to be connected again and restarted in order to have it operate once again. The locomotive ID and number does not show up screen either and I understand that there is update coming sometime after the first of the year to remedy that issue. Would that update also include a fix of any kind to help eliminate the dropout issue? If not, is there any recommendation from you that would help to improve the connectivity?

Also, as I understand the system available right now, and correct me if I’m wrong...is that only one (1) locomotive can be controlled and operated at a time when using the APP, unlike the Universal Remote which will allow for controlling up to three (3) locomotives.

PDDMI posted:

Also, as I understand the system available right now, and correct me if I’m wrong...is that only one (1) locomotive can be controlled and operated at a time when using the APP, unlike the Universal Remote which will allow for controlling up to three (3) locomotives.

Paul, This is info comes from another thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...00#75903721987113000

Railsounds posted:

Yes, that is correct. The ability to keep three locomotives in motion simultaneously is a feature of the Universal Remote that is not present in the iOS or Android LionChief Apps.

Railsounds posted:

we are indeed using the BLE standard for communication between locomotives and our universal remote or iOS/Android apps.

Yeah obviously BLE would need to be used with the LC App as smartphones and tablets do not have the same wireless communication standards integrated that Lionel used before incorporating BLE into the LionCheif products.

I don't get the benefit of using BLE to communications between the LC Universal Remote and the BLE equipped engines. What advantage does BLE have over the old (proprietary?) wireless communication used on on pre-BLE 2.4 GHz engines? (Better range? More reliable?)

Again, the most visible benefits to the end user for adding Bluetooth communications is to allow direct app control over engines from a smart device and Firmware upgrades to the Universal remote. Not to mention the Bluetooth logo printed on boxes does help draw some attention to consumers!

You really have to run a train equipped with BLE to completely appreciate how well it works and all the things it can do.

Hi Rudy, I’m experiencing a dropout when using the APP with my iPhone or iPad when the locomotive is at a distance of more than 15 feet or if there is a building or structure between the iphone and locomotive. ...

...The locomotive ID and number does not show up screen either and I understand that there is update coming sometime after the first of the year to remedy that issue.

...Also, as I understand the system available right now, and correct me if I’m wrong...is that only one (1) locomotive can be controlled and operated at a time when using the APP, unlike the Universal Remote which will allow for controlling up to three (3) locomotives.

First, 15 feet seems a little short, but this depends a lot on the device your app is running on. There may be other equipment using similar frequencies in the vicinity that could affect your range. Other Bluetooth devices, WiFi networks, wireless video cameras, wireless telephone handsets can all be found operating in and around the 2.4 GHz range. But I'm speculating. There are distance limits to be sure, but it's hard to give a fixed answer--it really depends on your particular environment and the smart devices you are using.

Second, if you have a particular locomotive which does not have its unique image appear on screen, the forthcoming update will include that graphic.

And finally: yes, using the free LionChief App, you can only control one locomotive at a time. The Universal remote will operate three simultaneously.

Railsounds posted:

And finally: yes, using the free LionChief App, you can only control one locomotive at a time. The Universal remote will operate three simultaneously.

Any plans to update to control more than one?

I too would love to see control of up to three locos on the app if its possible.

Even if we need to use the universal remote as a "middle man".

Anyone heading to York can stop at the Bachmann stand and see their HO Bluetooth app and how you can bring up the multiple engine screen which will have a throttle, bell and horn control for each engine running. It is so cool to not have to leave an engine running, without any control over it, while your searching for and running a different engine. Wish we had that in these O gauge apps. The engine sounds however did not come from the engines but were transmitted to a Bluetooth speaker. Imagine that coming from your 200 watt stereo system. Does anyone know if their app is the same as BlueRail? I also watched a youtube video, about 2 years ago, where a guy put a small layout up in a field and walked to the other end of the field to demonstrate how far the Bluetooth could reach. I don't remember the yardage, but I was truly amazed because most Bluetooth speakers drop out at about 35 feet. 

The operating range for BlueRail is over 100 feet, which I have verified. The app will connect to a large number of locos simultaneously, but only one bluetooth speaker. Remember, this is Bluetooth BLE, the latest version. The YouTube video was Dave Rees of BlueRail demonstrating the range.

Hey Bob, just a quick test for BlueRail operation. Set an engine or two in motion, and then switch off your phone/tablet.

What do these engines do when the controller app is no longer available to communicate with?
Just keep keep moving with the last issued command or do they stop?

Dave Zucal posted:

The engine sounds however did not come from the engines but were transmitted to a Bluetooth speaker. Imagine that coming from your 200 watt stereo system. 

While I'm sure the sound from a large stereo system would be better, I'd have a big problem with all the sounds coming from one location as the train travels around the layout.

John, this was in their HO and only one engine could send sound to the speaker at a time. I agree with you though. On a small layout it would sound OK, but on a large it would sound odd if the engine was quit a distance away and the sound wasn't.

When the new boards arrive from Bluerail and there associate producer, there wont be an issue with sound from multiple loco's.  Dave from Bluerail is also talking about the possibility of a smaller board for tighter spaces. You have to give Dave credit for kick starting Bluetooth, it got everyone else moving on Bluetooth. Im excited to see what he will do next.         cTr....    ( Choose the Right )

Two of my bluetooth equipped locos have on-board bluetooth sound. I removed the small bluetooth amp from a $15 Targus BT speaker and mounted it in the loco along with a 3" speaker. A 5V regulator chip provides the correct voltage for the amp. The sound is controlled by the BlueRail app. Works very nicely.

Bob   You can also by these bluetooth boards ( stereo ) separately, and small bass speakers , add a dollar buck converter to set your voltage, all for less than ten dollars total.  I wont to try ( when I have time ) creating my own sound fill for my Pensy S1,  watch this one.              

https://youtu.be/7N0lldAAE_0

Dave Zucal posted:

John, this was in their HO and only one engine could send sound to the speaker at a time. I agree with you though. On a small layout it would sound OK, but on a large it would sound odd if the engine was quit a distance away and the sound wasn't.

Try to picture speakers set under the layout spread out around the room. Mainly they would deliver bass or low end sounds. Each engine would still have sounds onboard. There would be some type of signal that each zone would detect a train coming and going. The sounds would get louder at each speaker as the train arrived and lower the further it moved away. Sort of the way the Doppler effect works, just automatically.

 Well that was my planned surround sound system that never got started. To make it easier for me, I was going to use special mics that were mounted to the layout table to pick up the sounds for each zone. Making a whole new board and receiver, is out of my league.

 When Bluetooth arrived, I thought I would visit the idea again. I never did. I'm not sure how the sounds kick in and out when the board goes in and out of range?

That sounds like a neat idea Joe. Maybe block sensors to turn off and on individual speakers spread out under the layout as the train travels.

I'm a little confused, so does the BlueRail Bluetooth smart phone app work with the Lionel LionChief Locomotives? The LC 2.0 Amtrak Genesis states it is Command-Control equipped, operates by Bluetooth, Universal Remote, TMCC or Legacy Cab.

No.  Two completely different things.

LionChief uses neither the BlueRail control system nor the BlueRail app.  Lionel has it's own Bluetooth-based controller and Bluetooth app.

Mike