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Slow short

Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member
Please help if you can , suggestions.

I have an Old ZW I am using for my accessories.When i first turn it on the green light dims a little,not like the usual short dim, but a short dim non the less indicating a short. After about 2 hrs its breaker pops, then will recycle and kick back on for 10 minutes or so the pop again. Then on then off.(14 gauge buss)

I have checked every pair of wires that goes to an accessorie to see if hot.Nothing.
Tonight I plan to unplug each accessorie until i see which may be the culprit.Before i unplug each accessorie individiually, i have some questions that might save me some time.

From my drawing below. I have 3 Legs. The first Leg runs to about 5 lighted building and 4 small lionel accessories. The only thing that i dont have a clue if its right is the jumpers i ran from the main leg for the windmill and the LEDs.

1)For instance the windmill has a very small 6 volt DC motor I installed. Between the main buss and motor I put an 1N4001 Diode. I am not sure if this was hooked to the Ground or Hot.(if that matters) Windmill works fine.

Also I put a 10K resitor between the Buss and LED on the windmill off the same leg as the In4001 Diode as in the drawing. LED works fine.

Would any of these cause the problem.

2) I have about 16 MTH buildings in a row. Some have the Neon Blinking signs. Only some work some dont.(some never did). I noticed on the bottom of these, 2 things, when i was hooking them up. 1 there is a switch to turn off the neon sign off and 2 its marked for wireing polarity correct AC hot/common.
Although i paid attention to this i may have accidently got 1 or 2 backwards.
Would this matter?

In addition to this as per the drawing In this Leg(3) I threw in a 10k resistor between the buss and some LEDs. Again not minding if resistor was to hot or common.

Would any of these cause the problem?

3) The super streets is not the issue for i rarely turn this on.

is it just the ZW? In my experience when their is a short with a ZW the wires either discinigrate or at least get warm, but this is not happening.Its a slow slow build up to a circuit trip.

Last edited {1}
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Jim PolicastroJim PolicastroOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Patrick,

I think the ZW is just overloaded. All those bulbs, etc. add up to more current draw than you would think.

I had the same symptoms with the KW I was using for lighting my industrial buildings. Just splitting the load between two different transformers did the trick.

Just to see, I hooked everything up to a Z4000 with meters, and found I was drawing well over 7 amps with just those building lights. Smile

Jim
Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Dale Manquen:
Is the ZW getting uncomfortably warm?


Yes it gets hot. I got another one out of a box i have. I beleive this one is the more recent one i had rebuilt, The rollers seem alot smoother, not dragging. But the instant dimming is what got me thinking a short.
I am gonna try it tonight as soon as the woodburner gets the basement warmed up.
Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member



Heres where i am at , I changed out the the Zw I hooked up all 3 legs again.

I shut off leg 1 and 2. Leg 3 is the problem.Same exact symptoms as the first ZW, however like i said earlier this one has excellent rollers. Even if i switch the leg to different post on the back of the ZW same symptom.


So i cut the bus wire in half. The first half of the leg has 11 MTH buildings 4 of them have the neon blinkers, 1 of them recently quit working. Being now only the first half of leg 3. I went underneath and un plugged that building and walla , when i pull the handle up no dim, so i reconnected the 2 nd half of the leg, now the dim is back.and the 2nd half of leg has 9 buildings and 2 of the 3 blinking signs never did work . So ill unplug them and see what happens.

I may be between pulling to much voltage, but i find that hard to beleive with only 10 buildings being the max.
I have to pick up my kids at 2 different places so, i cant finish this till later. But it is frustrating. I do not have a ampmeter only Multimeter for DC/AC voltage and ohms.
Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member
Well Jim,

I did what you said, I added a second transformer.I took an exact count and had way more buildings than originally was thinkin plus 6 passenger platforms and 12 strret lamps. I guess it was a little strained. Roll Eyes I divided the the 3rd leg. The light still dims a bit but transformer hasnt heated up in 2 1/2 hours but a slight warm, where before it was getting hot.

Dale ,
yes the outside rollers where pretty bad on the one ZW the other one was real good shape. I am using the inside slides on the one that isnt so great.
Last edited by Patrick H
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Policastro:
Patrick,
It's amazing how those little bulbs add up, isn't it! Smile

Jim


All the more reason for converting to LED's when you can and where you can.

You'd think that with their wide spread use that MTH and others would go to LED's

I guess we're almost but not quite there yet.

David
Ingeniero No1Ingeniero No1OGR Forum Member
As Jim, I also am using a KW for accessories and buildings, and eventually I will change the incandescent bulbs to LED’s. For the time being, however, what size breaker or fuse would be best to protect the KW’s variable outputs? I am using the variables so I can adjust the brightness of the building lights for different conditions.

Thx!

Alex
Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member
Maybe Jim can tell you that answer, but as far as the LEDs, I ordered a 100 of them with the resistor already on them and shrunk with 8" leads. I did a building with them as well as making up a bunch of tele poles.
I am a little disappointed in the result of the look of some of them in certain areas. The are way to modern looking for certian applications. Since they where only 22 bucks I am going to order the warm white LEDS this time.
FM Former Member
Yea Pat the cool white have a blue hue I don't care for.

If you bought the LED's with just a resistor you should feed em with DC only like an old HO transformer .They don't play well with AC and won't last like you want them to.

I always use the warm white they give off that slightly yellowish glow that makes it look like real light.

David
Dale ManquenDale ManquenOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
You have two considerations - protecting the transformer and avoiding overloading the downstream wiring if you have a short.

I like to break up my accessory power feed into multiple circuit breakers that are small enough to protect the small wiring typically used near the LED. Remember that a short at/near the lighting can cause smoke and fire long before the main breaker at the transformer trips. I like the 5 amp rocker switch breakers that allow convenient control of each circuit.
Rich883Rich883OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Patrick,

Could you share your source for the LEDs?

Thanks

Also as you use more LEDs, as was noted before you may want to change to using DC. If you do, I have had great luck with a modified computer power supply much like one John Boy posted some time ago. The one I have contains 4 separate 12VDC outputs, as well as several other voltages that I don't use.
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