Hi everyone, I'm sure some of you have seen questionsnbout this 40 year old engine.. probably from me. This train iscursed I swear. One mimute is the e-unit then traction tire then etc. Well now its the smoke unit... again...  well it seems to leak from the bottom. It looks like a factory made pin hole so is it supposed to let overflow out? And I have a sponge cramped there just so it absorbs the fluid. I'm fed up with this engine.  Any last minute advice before it goes into a box for until im 60? Im 18... so that's gonna be a long time. Please help... and does running without a traction tire cause an emhine to switch directions?

Original Post

What is the number on the loco? The smoke unit should not leak. Not sure if the hole is factory, or a defect. Is the smoke unit being overfilled? Just a few drops at a time is all that is needed. A clear picture would help. If you are having a traction tire issue, have you replaced it with a new one? A missing traction tire will not cause the loco to reverse.

 

Larry

Don't shelf it, mine are actually good runners. After a quick review of your post titles, here's what I'm guessing...

low smoke output-The smoke unit needs a repacking of the batting material so the fluid can creep up it, reaching the hot element. To get it to produce smoke now, you add lots of fluid. And it works for a short time, but really you are just getting the element a little wet, it doesn't last, you fill again, you end up overfilling it. This causes the extra fluid to drain out of the "air hole" just above the smoke units air piston (or the hole in the piston itself on some). The chamber hole is actually quite "deep". Its other end is well above the bottom, and helps to form a "bowl" of fluid that the batting/wick draws from. It is an air hole, and blocking it will cause less smoke to be blown out with each stroke of the piston.

  A missing or bad traction tire could cause reversing. But so could dirty or bent track, type of track, worn out switches, 0-27 vs Og, wiring, rollers etc. etc.

Robs suggestion about the tender roller addition would likely cure all.

 

 While I haven't read all your posts, along with the maker name there is something you should include with every request for tech help, The number/name of the items! On Lionel engines its # is printed on the engineers cab or number boards of most trains. Missing? Tell us if its a 2-4-2 or a 4-6-2 etc. We don't all know what you have, only that its one of the various SoS engines. And likely wont really remember what you have next time either. Not without a little reminder anyhow. At least with good base info we can make our guesses educated ones.     

 

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





Are you talking about your 4/4/2 C&O cab#8142?

If so that's a sealed smoke unit and does not have a wick. I've found most issues I have with this smoke unit are that it is not grounded correctly.

First check the connection underneath at the front pilot truck, even if it looks secure loosen it and make sure it's a clean connection.

If that doesn't correct the situation you'll have to remove the shell and check the wire connections first on the ground side on the way to the pilot truck. than on the power side. The headlight and the power side of the smoke unit share the same connection and are wired together during manufacturing. If you've been having trouble with the headlight too, and the shared connection looks good I believe you can trace the power back to the e unit and check that connection.

 

If the element is burnt out you can replace the smoke unit, though the replacements do not have the contacts for the Mighty Sound of Steam sound effects. I have had success adding my own contacts for the sound effects to the replacement smoke units and they smoke better than the originals. The replacements also have an LED hard wired to them I think that may be to knock down the voltage to the heat element. I usually remove the LED.

 

The picture above is from the Train Tenders website. He should have them in stock http://ttender.com He should also have the traction tires and any other parts you may need for the engine.

Patrick you have e-mail PDF file; Diagram for the C&O cab #8142, 4/4/2

Originally Posted by Matthew B.:

Are you talking about your 4/4/2 C&O cab#8142?

If so that's a sealed smoke unit and does not have a wick. I've st issues I have with this smoke unit are that it is not grounded correctly.

First check the connection underneath atwhat's sofront pilot truck, even if it looks secure loosen it and makAlleghanyt's a clean connection.

If that doesn't correct the situation you'll have to remove the shell and check the wire connections first on the ground side on the way to the pilot truck. than on the power side. The headlight and the power side of the smoke unit share the same connection and are wired together during manufacturing. If you've been having trouble with the headlight too, and the shared connection looks good I believe you can trace the power back to the e unit and check that connection.

 

If the element is burnt out you can replace the smoke unit, though the replacements do not have the contacts for the Mighty Sound of Steam sound effects. I have had success adding my own contacts for the sound effects to the replacement smoke units and they smoke better than the originals. The replacements also have an LED hard wired to them I think that may be to knock down the voltage to the heat element. I usually remove the LED.

 

The picture above is from the Train Tenders website. He should have them in stock http://ttender.com He should also have the traction tires and any other parts you may need for the engine.

Patrick you have e-mail PDF file; Diagram for the C&O cab #8142, 4/4/2

Yes thats my loco! She is my American made baby, if she collided with my chinese made #8743 loco the 8743 would be done.  But back to the original topic. But is it okay to run my engine without the traction tire? I tried using my 8743 tire but it slips off. And what would be the best way to fix my 8142? I believe the set was the Allegheny freight set but im not sure.

The smoke units for current loco, (8753-200) are meant to be wired in series with the motor. They operate at a lower voltage. Wired to track voltage it will have a short lifespan. And don't have the SOS contacts. Get a original replacement. To your last question,  replace, or clean the pick-up rollers by spray with contact cleaner to clean the roller axles. They just snap into the contact spring.

Patrick I don't know about running without the traction tire. I'd be concerned that even if the engine operated without any flaws the flanges would wear down in a way that made it difficult for the tires to remain on when you gat around to putting them back on.

I have several extras but can't find the part #, if you Email me I can send a couple tires out to you in Mondays mail.

The traction tires are part #242-206. Run the loco very slowly over the problem switch and track sections until the loco loses power and reverses. Stop the loco and look at it and the track to ascertain why the loco is losing power there. It could be a bad connection between track sections, or a possibly faulty switch.

 

Larry

The 8142 uses the Scout type center rail rollers which for whatever reasons are prone

to erratic behavior.  Shortly after Lionel switched to the snap in rollers which tend to work much better and are still used today in many starter set locos.

 

Photo found online of the 8142:

  

8142

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Originally Posted by Chuck Sartor:

The smoke units for current loco, (8753-200) are meant to be wired in series with the motor. They operate at a lower voltage. Wired to track voltage it will have a short lifespan. And don't have the SOS contacts. Get a original replacement. To your last question,  replace, or clean the pick-up rollers by spray with contact cleaner to clean the roller axles. They just snap into the contact spring.

How do itake off the rollers? They don't seem to come off.

The Early type shown are not removable. Poor engineering, only lasted a year.

This type of motor will have to be professionally repaired, as the motor is staked together and not well usually. This may be a tough one to get to run properly.

 Oh, PS, no prewar engines have a smoke unit, this was before smoke was invented.

Engines with Scout rollers usually will run fine as long as the rollers are kept very clean.

postwar Lionel Scout engines were serviceable, if the repair person has a copy of Lionel's service manual for the engine, and the proper tools.
Most, if not all modern era engines with Scout rollers are not designed to be disassembled to replace the rollers. Given probable labor costs, it is likely that replacing the motor assembly would be less expensive then renewing the rollers.

 

Regardless, those rollers are fairly wear resistant. The only worn scout rollers I recall were fairly early ones, made of a copper colored metal. Modern era "Scout" rollers appear to be some sort of sintered metal. If the engine was run enough to wear them out, other parts would probably be well worn and in need of replacing too.

C.W. Burfle

Sorry, I did mix my smoke units/locos up for sure, (I bought two trains that weekend, only had to work on the SoS tender, the other, a K-4, got a smoke unit rebuild).

 

 My SoS engine runs well enough without a traction tire, but not perfect. The loco may react similar to a table with one short leg, tippy and wobbly, as the track (type?) goes in and out of the grove. Mine does. This leaves you with only two drivers firmly on the track, and the possibility of the rollers lifting during tipping too. The tire grove edges will eventually(years) wear down some. Making it so if it's replacement, it's less likely to stay on well.

 Adding a pickup roller(s) to the tender, and then running wiring to the loco from around the drawbar area might kill two birds with one stone... reversing, and traveling though switches unaffected by spreading the electric pickups out.   

 

Early engines, even many tinplate loco's, used a "smoke light bulb ". It was a bulb with a dimple to hold a bit of smoke fluid(before smoke tablets). The hot bulb would cause the fluid to smoke. The smokestacks exhaust was sometimes improved with forced air from the headlight area. The fluid didn't last long and needed refilling often because the dimple area was so small. I had a MARX Commodore Vanderbilt with a long(1/2") side-dimpled smoke bulb, wicking, and forced air. It worked very well, but I've never seen, nor heard of another. And of course I cant find a replacement bulb. 

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





 

quote:
Early engines, even many tinplate loco's, used a "smoke light bulb ".



 

Only three Lionel engines ever came with a smoke bulb: The 1946 version of the 726 Berkshire, the 1946 version of the 2020 turbine, and the 1946 version of the 671 turbine (also the 671R turbine).
Lionel did not make any smoking engines prior to 1946.
The first generation of heater type smoke units were out by 1947.
Lionel offered kits to convert smoke bulb engines to heater type smoke units starting in 1947. Those kits were still available in 1969, perhaps in the Modern era too.

 

Original Lionel Smoke Bulbs are not that hard to find, but they are expensive. These days, a good reproduction is available from most parts dealers.

Never heard of a Marx engine with a bulb type smoke unit before, I would love to see some photos of the mechanism.

C.W. Burfle

Does it hurt to run one of these locos without a traction tire. I got my 8703 used and did not realize it needed a tire. It runs just fine and pulls several cars, mostly 40's & 50's postwar stuff, on my little layout just fine even through O-27 curves. I use old school Marx all metal switches and the loco runs great through them, no e-unit shifting into reverse or anything like that.The only issue I have with the little lokie is the smoke unit. It works, but nowhere near as proficiently as the ones do in my Marx 666 and 1666.  LOL

 

Hope you get you locomotive's issues sorted out Mr. Kazy way before you turn 60!

Andy

 

When they were passing out brains, I thought they said trains and I asked for a slow one.

It's not that the rollers need replacing on the early 8142 motors, its cleaning to dust and grease between the roller and contact spring. Most likely a bad ground circuit if the motor sideplates are loose from a poor staking job. Is the motor 'solid'? If you hold the body of the engine, can you wiggle the motor from side to side? Many of these are loose and will cause problems.

Originally Posted by Adriatic:

Sorry, I did mix my smoke units/locos up for sure, (I bought two trains that weekend, only had to work on the SoS tender, the other, a K-4, got a smoke unit rebuild).

 

 My SoS engine runs well enough without a traction tire, but not perfect. The loco may react similar to a table with one short leg, tippy and wobbly, as the track (type?) goes in and out of the grove. Mine does. This leaves you with only two drivers firmly on the track, and the possibility of the rollers lifting during tipping too. The tire grove edges will eventually(years) wear down some. Making it so if it's replacement, it's less likely to stay on well.

 Adding a pickup roller(s) to the tender, and then running wiring to the loco from around the drawbar area might kill two birds with one stone... reversing, and traveling though switches unaffected by spreading the electric pickups out.   

 

Early engines, even many tinplate loco's, used a "smoke light bulb ". It was a bulb with a dimple to hold a bit of smoke fluid(before smoke tablets). The hot bulb would cause the fluid to smoke. The smokestacks exhaust was sometimes improved with forced air from the headlight area. The fluid didn't last long and needed refilling often because the dimple area was so small. I had a MARX Commodore Vanderbilt with a long(1/2") side-dimpled smoke bulb, wicking, and forced air. It worked very well, but I've never seen, nor heard of another. And of course I cant find a replacement bulb. 

Would the #1668e 2-4-2 or 2-6-2 torpedo train have one? And is there a way to add a modern coupler on it?

 

quote:
It's not that the rollers need replacing on the early 8142 motors, its cleaning to dust and grease between the roller and contact spring.



 

Here is what I do:

Put a QTip stick in the center of the roller (holds the roller up and away from the bottom plate).

Dip another QTip in some odorless Mineral Spirits, leave it a little juicy

Swab the roller with the Qtip, turning the roller with a finger.

After going all the way around, wipe off the roller with a dry QTip.

 

It may be necessary to repeat this cleaning.

 

In my experience, making the roller nice and wet with the mineral spirits cleans the contact spring as the roller turns past it.

I use pure mineral spirits, there is product out there that is diluted with water.

 

The idea isn't to make a mess. Don't flood the roller, just make it wet.

 

 

C.W. Burfle
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

 Never heard of a Marx engine with a bulb type smoke unit before, I would love to see some photos of the mechanism.

While I do still have the train, the housing was not painted and didn't survive(rust). Lost the green glass bottle for fluid. Its here, but I haven't seen it in 20 years. Might have had asbestos in the housing too. But I committed its shape to memory so I could recreate it someday(if I find a bulb). Ill try to remember to photograph the body and light socket for you, along with a later no smoke, but lighted version I have (for comparison) but here is a MS-paint pic for you till then(below) .  

 

 

Originally Posted by handyandy:

Does it hurt to run one of these locos without a traction tire. I got my 8703 used and did not realize it needed a tire. It runs just fine and pulls several cars, mostly 40's & 50's postwar stuff, on my little layout just fine even through O-27 curves. I use old school Marx all metal switches and the loco runs great through them, no e-unit shifting into reverse or anything like that.The only issue I have with the little lokie is the smoke unit. It works, but nowhere near as proficiently as the ones do in my Marx 666 and 1666.  LOL

 

Hope you get you locomotive's issues sorted out Mr. Kazy way before you turn 60!

Must be later MARX turnout switches. My early MARX locos wont run on Lionel 0-27 turnouts and my Lionel locos wont run on my MARX turnouts(0-29 or 30?). MARX wheels gear teeth run to the very edge of the flange making them too wide for Lionel turnouts. Lionel flanges bottom out on the MARX turnouts causing it to "jump"off track or loose the cars at speed.

 I think yours will last a loooong time without a tire, but ware will occur. If its good enough for you, Id flow with it off forever. I imagine the tipping issue is less noticeable on tubular, its wider overall. But I think it would round those edges quicker making constant contact on both side of the grove. T-type modern tracks I think would enter the wheel grove up to 100% making the loco more "table leg tippy". 

 

 

Originally Posted by Patrick Kazy:
Would the #1668e 2-4-2 or 2-6-2 torpedo train have one? And is there a way to add a modern coupler on it?

Sorry I don't know if the Dreyfuss had smoke or not. Adding a coupler to the front? I would just use wire, or buy a new scale version with a front coupler(if made) before cutting into an old one. But that's just me. I did add a front coupler to the chromed MPC Lionel 4-4-0 Rock Island General so I could double head 2 of those pretty bass turds around. It required mounting to the pilot truck because the pilot beam swings out to far in turns, and removing the whole pilot plus more plastic from underneath. If you cut the old Dreyfuss up... well, it just wouldn't look right

 

 

MARX

 

Edits-photo size

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





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