Soldering to Gargraves Track

Try soldering the wire to the screw and the solder should flow down into the screw hole, giving a solid connection.

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

Gunrunnerjohn talked me into soldering wire connections to power my track. This is a 16x17 layout with Gargraves track and Ross turnouts, divided into 8 electrical blocks. Operation is DCS and TMCC through DCS using 3 TIUs with all outputs fixed, in SUPER mode. No conventional operation and no Legacy.

I hadn't wanted to solder the track and was looking for some way to attach wires from the TIUs to the track without soldering. GRJ suggested that everything would be more reliable if I just soldered the connections. I believe he is right and off I went with Weller's big-butt 240 watt soldering gun.

It has all worked out pretty well EXCEPT that some sections of Gargraves track will not take solder no matter what I do. Oddly, this only occurs on the shiny outer rails. The black center rail ALWAYS takes solder (so far). I grind a clean area along the base of the rail, tin the wire and then tin the clean area of the rail. Then I apply heat and solder and 85% of the time, this all goes smoothly and I march on.

15% of the time, the shiny outer rails on a "problem track section" will not take solder. I tried different fluxes, I tried 60/40 solder and 63/37 solder (no lead-free--all real solder), I tried more aggressively grinding the base of the rail and .... no good. Finally, for these relatively few track sections, I dug out a tiny drill bit, drilled a hole in the base of the rail, wrapped a wire around a #2-32 sheet metal screw and screwed a wire connection to the rail. This yields good continuity but certainly not the reliability of a soldered connection.

Has anyone else seen this and found a solution?

Don Merz

Hmm, the fact that it is only some sections is weird, that would imply either the metal in that section had a significantly different composition then the other sections where it worked or there is something on the surface of it stopping a good solder joint. If you ground it down, though, that would kind of rule out some kind of surface contaminant.

I assume you are soldering them with them on the layout and fully in place. If possible, just as an experiment, I would take one of the problem sections off the layout (obviously, again, if at all possible) and try soldering it by itself. I wonder if maybe being where it is in the layout, the heat is being dissipated because it is connected in (the sections electrically connected are also thermally connected) and it is just too big a heat sink, so you aren't getting a hot enough joint. By taking it off by itself might test out that theory...the other place if the track can come up is to try soldering on the bottom of the rail, I used to do that with tubular track back in the day.

Is it possible you have some stainless rails mixed in with your tin rails??  I've never had any issues soldering to the shiny outside rails on tin plated GG.

I suspect you have Stainless mixed as noted above.  I had zero issues soldering to my Gargraves or Ross tin plated track.  For the blackened rails, I used a Cratex wheel to knock off the plating to solder to those.  For the tin outside rails I didn't do anything but apply heat with my Weller 100/140 gun and feed solder into the tip.  For old track, you might need to scuff it a bit to solder it, all of my track was new out of the box as well as the switches.

Another thing you can do, if you can remove the track, is open the bottom web of the rails with a screwdriver, and insert a flat wire terminator. For Gargraves track, you may have to move the ties together while you do this.

On the troublesome rail see if a small magnet acts the same as on a good rail. Normal high quality stainless is not magnetic. I THINK??

Artie--I am doing my best not to remove the track. Since this problem only affects a small percentage of my wiring, I am going to trust the screw attachment. If I have to lift the track section, I might as well replace it with a known-good track section.

GRJ and friends--it is quite possible that some stainless rail is mixed in here. I bought almost all my track USED, like everything else on this railroad! So Lord knows what is in there. I guess I am lucky that the problem is not more widespread.

Fastman--that magnet idea is worth trying and I will do that ASAP.

Don

Bigkid--I like your reasoning. But the 240 watt gun I am using should heat anything. Heck, if you hold down the button too long, the copper gun tip starts to droop!

Don

Gotcha, Don! It sounds like the magnet idea is the way to go. Good luck.

Stainless is the issue

Bob G.

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

Bigkid--I like your reasoning. But the 240 watt gun I am using should heat anything. Heck, if you hold down the button too long, the copper gun tip starts to droop!

Don

Melting point of

Copper:  1983 degrees F

Stainless Steel:  2500+ degrees F

I found it interesting looking at the chart that Tungsten melts at 6150 degrees F.

@CAPPilot posted:

I found it interesting looking at the chart that Tungsten melts at 6150 degrees F.

Which is why it's used in incandescent bulbs.

Note: most tubular track is steel, with a very thin galvanized coating.   The solder will adhere well to the galvanize.  If you remove the galvanize, the project becomes much harder.  A careful clean, plumber' soldering flux might help.  I was able to solder copper wire to this steel, part of a turntable.

Also these brass washers to the turntable shaft.  Map gas /propane torch was used.

Solder to the bottom of Gargraves, with Solid14 ga. wire leads. A couple of very old Weller Soldering guns.

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

Bigkid--I like your reasoning. But the 240 watt gun I am using should heat anything. Heck, if you hold down the button too long, the copper gun tip starts to droop!

Don

That reasoning was proof of Occam's Razor, that you come up with a convoluted solution and forget the obvious (that Gargraves made stainless steel). I also thought "maybe the iron isn't hot enough" but then I re-read the message and realized what you were using, I had one of those beasts, these days I probably would have trouble picking it up *lol*

I have had exactly the same problem and no it's not stainless. I finally gave up and soldered the feeder wire to a spade terminal and shoved that into the bottom of the rail.

@Dennis Rempel posted:

I have had exactly the same problem and no it's not stainless. I finally gave up and soldered the feeder wire to a spade terminal and shoved that into the bottom of the rail.

I have done the same as Dennis.  My soldering gun is old and maybe doesn’t get hot enough.

Hard to believe a soldering gun isn't getting hot enough to solder to Gargraves Tinplate track!  I soldered hundreds of connections to my track during my build, and I did it with a 30 year old Weller 100/140 soldering gun.  Obviously, I made sure the tip was good and the tip nuts were tight.  With those obvious common sense steps, the gun got plenty hot to quickly solder to the Gargraves track and the Ross Switches.  Note that you do have to take the blackening off the center rails to solder to those, but I hope that's obvious.

@fastman posted:

On the troublesome rail see if a small magnet acts the same as on a good rail. Normal high quality stainless is not magnetic. I THINK??

IME 300 series SS is non magnetic, 400 series SS is magnetic.  400 series can oxidize (rust) .    Some auto exhaust components are 400.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hard to believe a soldering gun isn't getting hot enough to solder to Gargraves Tinplate track!  I soldered hundreds of connections to my track during my build, and I did it with a 30 year old Weller 100/140 soldering gun.  Obviously, I made sure the tip was good and the tip nuts were tight.  With those obvious common sense steps, the gun got plenty hot to quickly solder to the Gargraves track and the Ross Switches.  Note that you do have to take the blackening off the center rails to solder to those, but I hope that's obvious.

Sometimes the low voltage connects, end of gun to the replace-able soldering tips can become loose, or slightly corroded. Most Weller equipment has replace-able tips.  Some of the guns had two heat intensities built into the trigger, another part that can go bad after 30 years.  I was also able to replace the small light bulbs near the soldering tip.

Which is why I specifically mentioned the tip and the connecting nuts.   The two-level trigger is actually a part you can still buy, but the prices I see listed are a bit high.

John and Mike, Yes, I made sure the tip was cleaned and tinned, nuts tightened, the blackening was off the center rail, and the 2-position switch seemed to be working.  I forgot one thing when I was soldering a few weeks ago.  This is the soldering gun that I foolishly jammed into my wrist when it was hot.  My DNA must have damaged the tip over time.    Yah, that's it. 

I thought I had new tips, but who knows after many years, so I bought two new ones.  Hey, it solders to GarGraves rail fine now.  I know I had the mishap over 30 years ago, because our older daughter hadn't been born, and she turn 30 in a month.  Bad DNA. 

I used my soldering pencil when I built HO layouts so I didn't melt the plastic ties, so the Weller hadn't been out of the box for years.

If you run out of Weller tips, #12 solid copper wire works surprisingly well.   I've used that many times when I found out I didn't have an extra tip.

Thank you, John!!  That makes sense.

If it is indeed stainless steel you need an acid based flux designed to solder stainless steel:

https://www.amazon.com/Rubyflu...-Steel/dp/B007BGYQEC

and a solder that is at least 50% tin.

John

I have soldered to Gargraves-a task I do not relish even with catsup and mustard

and I have used the Gargraves power connections-the 911-1 Solder-less connectors.

They are a pain to install but electrically I find that they are sufficient to the task, and easier to use than soldering  

And I have found that if you take a spare wooden tie, and set the connector on it, after aligning the tab into the rail slot-and using a small “persuader”...one solid tap drives the tab into the slot, and then sliding the rails closer to the connector makes a useful mechanical connection.

The drill idea has merit.
But I’d rather take a few minutes to get power to the rails than spend a frustrating 5-15 minutes soldering with all it entails.

but

to each their own

@1drummer posted:

I have soldered to Gargraves-a task I do not relish even with catsup and mustard

...  SNIP ...

But I’d rather take a few minutes to get power to the rails than spend a frustrating 5-15 minutes soldering with all it entails.

5-15 minutes???  I really should post a track soldering video!  I can't imagine what you're doing to take five minutes to make a solder connection, never mind 15 minutes!

Note that we're talking about tinplate track here, it's very easy to solder!

Well, let's see....1. Check length of feeder wire(s) needed, 2) Cut feeder wire(s), 3) Strip ends of feeders, 4) Tin feeder ends, 5) Grind rails at solder points to bare metal, 6) Tin rails, 7) Drill hole through roadbed for feeders to run underneath, 8) Route wires down through hole to junction box or other connection point, 9) Solder feeders to rails, 10) Test continuity and for shorts between center rail and outer rails, and finally 11) Correct any sloppy soldering and ensure stock rolls smoothly over connection points...then move on to the next feeder.

5 to 15 minutes? Yep, sounds right.

Don Merz

You guys really need to work on your soldering.  If it took me 15 minutes for each track drop, I'd probably still be wiring my power.

First off Don, let's not stuff the ballot box here, we're talking about making the solder joint.  You have to prep the feeder wires whether you solder or use some other connection point.  You also have to drill through the roadbed, route the wires, check the continuity, etc.  Those are all tasks for any wiring of power drops to the track.

Well heck, if it's just making the connection then why even talk about it?--and come to think of it, why use a gun (that has to warm up) instead of an iron (that is already hot!).

Don

I wasn't the one that started the conversation of how difficult it is to solder to Gargraves track.

I use a gun because I find it more convenient, and the quick and plentiful heat makes the soldering job quick and easy.  I grab the gun and squeeze the trigger, by the time I have it in position to solder, it's up to temperature, no time wasted.

Truthfully, all the other stuff you mentioned doing a track drop takes far more time than the quick solder connection to the track.  If you're using new or newer Gargraves tinplate, the only cleaning you have to do is to remove the blackening from the center rail, I didn't do anything but solder to the outside tin rails for any of the Gargraves track or Ross switches.  I also just use .031 diameter 63/37 Rosin Core solder for the job, I don't screw around with extra flux, etc., it's not needed.

Yea, I know--I wuz just ribbing you!

PS: I really want that E-6!

Don

I have to admit, I was an electronics technician dating back to 1976, and I have always felt wiring whether soldering or using some kind of terminals with or without attaching lugs to the wires takes time.  I do have to admit, I have always been sort of a klutz, and with arthritis setting in early, some of those tasks have become harder.  Therefore, that is one layout building task I do not like

Back when I was in my mid 40's a younger fellow in his 20's came to work with us.  He had been required to become NASA soldering certified at his previous job.  Wow, could he could he make a terrific solder connection quickly!  He was all the things in a technician that I was not.  But, I was all the things that he was not.  We complimented each other very well.

The rail may not be as clean as you think. Add a drop of liquid solder flux first.

That is an excellent point, Jim.  When we strip the insulation off the wire, we 'call it clean', but the rail defiantly isn't.  I bought 3 Ross switches recently.  The two that were identical had a lot of an oily substance on them that I hadn't seen on their switches before.  It made me realize there must be some of whatever that was in the process of making all of them.

Well anyone can post a video if they prefer.
but that won’t change the reality I have encountered getting sufficient heat to the rail, with flux and without, then getting the tinned wire and the rail to join in a satisfactory joint

And I would be willing to compare my Soldering Experience and Expertise against anyone.

I wonder why in any group theres always that one individual who has to use their own experience as a generalization application for everyone. As if there can be no other variables in existence
when in fact there are many.

The point is, using the Gargraves connector is easier and faster and it doesn’t affect the rails  -it’s almost as if it was tailor made for the job😁

Drummer, I think everyone should use whatever methods and materials work best for him.

Soldering Gargraves track. How about contacting me via e mail,I will give you my mail address, and you can send me a 4 or 5 inch piece of the track that won't solder. The ups store [and others] sell a 6 inch padded manila envelope that will work. I have some experience, and would like to try. Be sure to include return address and phone # if you want. Charlie.

@1drummer posted:

I wonder why in any group theres always that one individual who has to use their own experience as a generalization application for everyone. As if there can be no other variables in existence when in fact there are many.

Since this seems obviously targeted to my posts, exactly what variables are you posting about.  You didn't mention the exact type of track.  Presuming your boasts about your soldering experience are true, it would not be stainless, as we know that would greatly increase the difficulty.  Maybe you're using the wrong iron or solder, again you didn't specify what you use.

Well anyone can post a video if they prefer.
but that won’t change the reality I have encountered getting sufficient heat to the rail, with flux and without, then getting the tinned wire and the rail to join in a satisfactory joint

That's the part I'm trying to understand.  First off, I never needed more flux than the Rosin Core solder provides, that that's a non-issue.  My 100/140W gun gets plenty of heat where I need it to solder to the rail, and I've also used the same gun on countless joints on Atlas solid rail connections for our club modules.

And I would be willing to compare my Soldering Experience and Expertise against anyone.

All evidence to the contrary.

We've been very fortunate in this thread in a number of ways--many knowledgable people have commented and we discovered that quite a number of folks on OGRF have seen this issue. That alone is worth the price of admission. But we were also gifted with a number of strong solutions including ways to make sure our soldering process is following "best practices" and alternatives such as the spade lug connection and my own "drill a hole in the rail and use a number 2 sheet metal screw" to make the connection.

Separately, I also looked into using a conductive glue, but the best products are VERY expensive so I discarded that approach.

Finally I neglected to report to my kind responders that I DID try the magnet on the rails--I tested both the ones that take solder and the ones that won't with the result (wait for it.....) that they are the same. The magnet has the same attraction to both "good" and "bad" rails. Ugh--I thought that test was going to be conclusive. But no, Murphy's Law applies. Classic.

Someone asked for a sample of the "bad" rail. I'll be glad to send this. I have decided to uproot the one "bad" section and replace it because it's in a critiocal spot entering my only big reverse loop. I can send a sample of "bad rail" to anyone who may be interested. My email is in my profile.

So far I have soldered just shy of 100 connections to the layout (a drop in the bucket--don't remind me!) and just TWO of them won't take solder. Bizarre. One of the cartoon strips--was it Mr. Magoo?--used to have a character that walked around while a rain cloud stayed over him pouring down rain wherever he went. That is how this problem makes me feel!

Thanks to all!

Don Merz

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

So far I have soldered just shy of 100 connections to the layout (a drop in the bucket--don't remind me!) and just TWO of them won't take solder. Bizarre. One of the cartoon strips--was it Mr. Magoo?--used to have a character that walked around while a rain cloud stayed over him pouring down rain wherever he went. That is how this problem makes me feel!

That's truly odd, and obviously something about that "bad" rail is different.

If I clean the rail too aggressively, I can take off the tin plating leaving the steel rail exposed.  Much harder to solder to the steel.

CAPPilot--now THAT is a great point. I will try this today--maybe I cleaned off the outer layer that was easy to solder to! I have to test this idea...

Don

Truthfully, I'm still not seeing what the issue with soldering to tinplate track is.  Here's two soldering samples on a scrap of the Gargraves from my build.  The first one was just leaving a spot of solder on the rail, tinning the wire to be attached, then holding them together and applying heat with the gun.  It was seconds of work, took as long to strip and tin the wire as it did to tin the rail and solder the connection.

Here's the other sample, I've used the Dremel and removed all the tinning from the rail, that's bare steel you see.

Here is that steel patch soldered, note I marked it so I could identify which side I removed the tinning.  It soldered exactly like the other side, I had zero issues getting it to stick, and it took no longer than soldering the tinned rail.

This has always been my experience with not only Gargraves, but any other tin plate track I've worked with.  I've had plenty of tubular track that needed serious cleaning of rust/oxidation before you soldered, and soldering to the bare steel on that track was no different than this track.

The only materials used were .031 Kester 63/37 Rosin Core Solder and the Weller 8200 100/140 soldering gun.

Gunrunner

you've already demonstrated that you have disdain for me, but I like a challenge

my Point is valid and true

as far as My Soldering  have an Applied Science Degree in Communications Electronics from a world renowned institution her is St  Louis  

I won’t mention it’s name because I’m certain you will find some lame way to disparage it and me  

I am component level trained to work on any device that communicates electronically  and that includes removing and replacing micro processor chips manually  

Im NABER CERTIFIED, and also Northern Telecom Certified-but that has lapsed-repairing those items is no longer cost effective  

I also build out Surgical Operating Theaters-most for teaching and conferencing across the planet, which includes thousands of connections on everything from Audio to Video, from interconnections on various medical monitors to the surgeons Apple device of choice. All custom made cables  that fed the central boom in the operating room  

I have never failed to solder anything I set out to join  

but there are times where Gargraves track is a royal time consuming pain  

I’m glad you’re having such an easy experience with it  

You chose to begin this

maybe you’ll choose to stop

1drummer, you first posted on this thread about how much trouble it is for you to solder. Someone didn't agree with you and your defenses went up. The statements made were against your claim of how difficult soldering is and especially difficult on Gargraves track. I see no replies attacking you.

1drummer, please don't continue this tack. I started this thread and it has been valuable to me. Please don't destroy the thread with argumentative replies. I am asking you to kindly drop this in the interest of preserving the underlying value of the discussion. OK? Please just let it go. Can you do that for us?

Thanks.

Don Merz

FWIW. I have never had any issues soldering to Gargraves track...

Mark in Oregon

@1drummer posted:

You chose to begin this

maybe you’ll choose to stop

WOW!  I simply can't think of any reply to that diatribe, you win!

So maybe I missed it but if you run into some stainless rail what’s the best war to get the wire to stick? Move down the line to the next Ross curve?

I came across the same thing on the clubs new layout had 2 sections of GarGraves that was a real PIA to solder to. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was stainless we use a lot of old GarGraves that had been dropped off and donated. We went through and got the cleaner stuff and tried to weed out all the stainless but 1 pice could’ve slipped in. That section is still magnetic but as stated earlier typically “cheep” stainless is still magnetic.

@zhubl posted:

So maybe I missed it but if you run into some stainless rail what’s the best war to get the wire to stick? Move down the line to the next Ross curve?

See my post above.

John

When you use .031 Kester 63/37 Rosin Core Solder, do you need to use flux? If so what brand?

Jack

Rosin is the flux.

I haven't soldered to Gargraves (my new layout to be is Ross track, similar), but what I found worked for me was pretty much what GRR said

1)got the tinplate off the area to be soldered (this was lionel old O27). Found that it took more work then I thought, plus the rough contact area seemed to help.

2)I used rosin core solder but I also used paste solder, too (might be overkill, not professional, but I did it).

3)I tinned the wire to be soldered and I also tinned the rail.

4)I then used the iron to hold the wire in place, let it heat up, then added a dab more solder, let it flow.

Usually that was quick. I had some track that I coudn't get to solder, I think it was just old, either switched to another track, or replaced the one that was being problematic.

One of the few things I learned about soldering (besides that I could never do it professionally, my dad was an EE who worked for a company doing defense work in the military aviation sphere, saw my soldering and gritted his teeth, haven't gotten much better *lol*), is that there are a lot of variables there, it could work great one day, not the next, same kind of wire, sometimes would solder great, not the other, also learned from a friend that there is value to replacing the soldering tip of the gun/pencil solderer (which being my father's son I am loathe to do), could also be the gun itself is not always heating right.

Only suggestion I have is vary the method you use when soldering, if you can, borrow a soldering gun/iron from someone and see if that works better, maybe the gun is marginal (and I am not saying that will help the original poster), use different solder/different rosin.

FYI. Solder exists in 3 states. Solid; like in the store or on your shelf. Liquid as on the tip of a hot soldering iron. Then the really critical area known as "plastic" When you solder anything the area where things go south is if you move whatever you are soldering during the "plastic" state. Mil Spec and N.A.S.A. specified 63/37 because it had a very narrow temperature range where it was "plastic" It was called a "eutectic"solder because of this characteristic. Your chances of a "cold" solder joint are somewhat reduced using 63/37. Hope this helps. Charlie

Going back to the original problem--solder that didn;t stick to the rails, I tried both 60/40 and 63/37 lead-based solder with rosin core flux. Neither one would stick. Also, this solder is fresh, not old junk. I have had problems in the past trying to use old solder. I did not try the new (to me), lead-free solder. I also tried a different flux--SRA Flux #135--a paste flux that I have used with great success on antique radios. The 135 flux DID make the solder flow better (as it will do) but it did not make the solder stick to the "bad" rails.

The problem rails are on Gargraves "Phantom" flex track, not on their turnouts or sectional track. And the problem rails are the shiny outside rails. The black center rail takes solder just fine.

I think this case is a REAL outlier. I do not expect others to see much of this problem, if any. I think most people use GG track with NO issues. And to repeat, so far I hav only seen this problem in two connections out of about 90 I have made.

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies.

Don Merz

Are you SURE that's not the stainless track Don?  That will be difficult to solder to.  I went through most of two cases of the Gargraves flex tinplate track with wooden ties, and every piece got something soldered to it without any issue.  It it's not stainless, that's a real oddity.

My technique has been to flip the target track over, pick a pair of ties, slide them apart, sprwad the rail with a flat screwdriver, insert wire parallel to the running rail, return the ties to the original position this crimping the wire.  A dab of solder is optional.  About a solid a connection as i have ever had.

@Don Merz 070317, have you tried using a magnet to compare the problem GG track sections with the others?  Stainless will show far less magnetism than the tinplate track.  If they are similar, then it is a real head scratcher.

It also could be a bad batch of rail, too, I don't know where gargraves sources their rails from, but it is possible it came from a bad batch. The other possibility if the rail is old is that it is so oxidized the solder won't take (I claim no special expertise here, mind you, other than a bit of knowledge on how oxidation works), oxidation can go deep on metal, what you see as surface rust is one type from what I dimly recall. 

Are you having trouble with all the track you have, or is it just some sections of it?

@bigkid posted:

Are you having trouble with all the track you have, or is it just some sections of it?

It appears it's only a couple pieces of track.

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

I think this case is a REAL outlier. I do not expect others to see much of this problem, if any. I think most people use GG track with NO issues. And to repeat, so far I have only seen this problem in two connections out of about 90 I have made.

Pingman, please see my reply about 10 up--yes on the magnet, with zero result. Good and bad track are equally magnetic.

Don

All the track on my layout was purchased used. I was wondering if maybe some track stored under adverse conditions could show this problem--the way paper become brittle after 15 years in the attic. Maybe the track "lost something" as a result of storage in an area that had big hot and cold swings...or ???

Don

necrails, soldering--like so many things, sigh--is a CHOICE. I chose to solder. But my mileage has varied a bit as a result of my choice!

Don

If anyone has some test they can run that would be conclusive, I'd be glad to mail them a piece of this rail. My email is in my profile. The solder rolls off of this rail, heat be dammed (deliberate mis-spelling....see if that makes the moderator cut--I feel like Clark Gable in GWTW!).

Don

Send me a piece Don, and I'll see if it solders like the stuff I used.  Even handful of used pieces I used for my turntable whisker tracks soldered fine, I didn't notice any difference in it and the new track.

I'm really surprised that a piece of tinplate rail would be so difficult. and it would be interesting to see it for myself.