Southern Pacific Cab Forward by Key Model Imports

You still need to fix that eccentric crank.  Very nice photos.

That's pretty sweet Erik. They were all that clean at least once

Amazing captures! I also enjoy the bare brass close-ups on Key's website. I bet they run like heaven.

Would love to see a Youtube review by  Gary Schrader.

HO crowd be drooling!

Those truly are beautiful shots of this remarkable model.

Absolutely gorgeous!

Malcolm

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Amazing captures! I also enjoy the bare brass close-ups on Key's website. I bet they run like heaven.

Would love to see a Youtube review by  Gary Schrader.

HO crowd be drooling!

Gary is the one that did all the building on the corrected models for the builder. They were 7500.00 each and are all sold out. On ward for other importers. Any one know what the status on the big boy is?

Bob

As Roberto Duran said to Sugar Ray Leonard, "No mas, no mas!"    "No more, no more!"

Dick

Well maybe a couple more locos. 

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Would love to see a Youtube review by  Gary Schrader.

HO crowd be drooling!

Gary did a YouTube review of the pilot model a few years ago at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Uk1xiheao

Video here describing the scale wheel profile... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVptvhy_AS0

And working flexible pipe joints here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoosaBMGLQM

...gregg

The emotional impact translates nicely in your photography work, Eric.  Pulling off realism with a new penny really takes special craftsmanship IMO. 

Bruce

Bob Harris posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Amazing captures! I also enjoy the bare brass close-ups on Key's website. I bet they run like heaven.

Would love to see a Youtube review by  Gary Schrader.

HO crowd be drooling!

Gary is the one that did all the building on the corrected models for the builder. They were 7500.00 each and are all sold out. On ward for other importers. Any one know what the status on the big boy is?

Bob

These tend to be long term projects for serious investors. JMO

Beautiful model. Great photo work, Erik. Is that bridge shot the module project you guys were working on?

Are those models?

Erik     When I see you have posted, I knew Im in for some great shots, and they are, really great shots.   Thanks!        cTr.....( Choose the Right )

bob2 posted:

You still need to fix that eccentric crank.  Very nice photos.

Bob,  can expound on that.  No model is perfect, but that problem must have slipped by.  It is an incredible model that has raised the bar for steam locomotive model building. 

BH

Nice Work Erik!  It's an incredible model and many of the incredible features are not readily visible.  

BH

Just noticed Gary's review on Key's website. It seems to be an alternative mobile only site, but he goes through all the road number details and time frames. It really gives you a sense of the complexity in his research and Key's ability to deliver. What a  project! Mind blowing  really. Wow! This really makes me want to order a GS6 in WP... maybe they are next after the big boy?

Well thank you fellas, I am humbled by your comments. Yes it's a real 1/48 scale model LLKJR.

As far as the technical side there Bob2 take that up with Gary Schrader that's his deal; I just photographed it. 

AGHRMatt posted:

Beautiful model. Great photo work, Erik. Is that bridge shot the module project you guys were working on?

Yeah Matt!

In this view I still needed to add smoke pellets...  

Erik C Lindgren posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

Beautiful model. Great photo work, Erik. Is that bridge shot the module project you guys were working on?

Yeah Matt!

In this view I still needed to add smoke pellets...  

...

Nice.

I decided to dust off some bridge drawings I have to build a photo platform module. The bridge was built by Pacific Electric in 1913 and I can remember when trains ran under then backed across it to serve a steel plant on the north side (left) of the bridge. The City of Torrance had issued a Request for Proposals (RFP) to rehabilitate/retrofit the bridge. It actually appears on the city seal and was deteriorating. The RFP included  a very good set of drawings which I downloaded. I contacted the City yesterday to find out how the work turned out and they sent me this photo.

Erik - the technical side of that is the eccentric crank is probably loose, and will cause great grief during an operating session.

Eccentric cranks aim more or less at the axle center bore.  They are about 15 degrees off to impart motion to the eccentric rod.  A loose eccentric will ultimately wind up in an over-center position, bending the rod or worse.

Shaft Loctite is your friend.

I agree - your photographs are works of art.  If production runs can be considered art, then this model qualifies.

Looks like a really nice model. Enjoy.

I can't tell from those photos if the eccentric crank is in the right position or not. To me the latest shot on the bridge looks to have the rods down and the crank at an angle.

Nobody does smoke better than you do, Erik.  My hat is off!

I missed this thread the first time.

I'm always blown away by your photography.  Key sure did their part with a beautiful model.

Check the second photo of the very first post.  The eccentric is off by almost 90 degrees.  It is surely loose.

Okay, yes. I read too quickly and thought you were saying there was a general builders flaw in all of the positions of the eccentric cranks.

Great stuff. I probably will never see the finished version in person but at least I got to see the brass version they were hauling to shows some years ago and it was incredible.

I really like to have at least 2 versions of any locomotive I have even if it is by different importers. I have 2 versions of these locomotives and Key Model Imports has negated any reason to get anymore with their SUPERB versions. I want their ''Big Boy'' and their Santa Fe 4-8-4s. No doubt,both will be INCREDIBLE! 

The eccentric crank is not loose...that's how it was positioned on those locomotives.  Recall, it is a locomotive running backwards (perhaps someone with a greater mastery of valve gear can explain why the eccentric crank is lagging, not leading).

mark s posted:

The eccentric crank is not loose...that's how it was positioned on those locomotives.

I don't think so, Mark. The position of the eccentric crank should not have any bearing on either forward or reverse movement of the engine. The position of the block within the link, determines valve position and length of valve stroke, no matter the direction of movement. 

 Recall, it is a locomotive running backwards (perhaps someone with a greater mastery of valve gear can explain why the eccentric crank is lagging, not leading).

Well, Mark is partially correct - some locomotive operators wanted the radius rod to be down in normal operation, so Baldwin rigged the cab forward engines for reverse running.

But look again at that photo - the crank is a quarter turn away from any reasonable setting, forward or reverse.

Somebody help me on this - this crank is way, way out of normal position.  Plenty of prototype photos exist to back me up.

Yes Bob2, I saw the now removed photo, the crank was pointing at the tread instead of the axle.  It's not a complaint against Key or Erik, it's just something the owner needs to check before running it and it causes problems.

Gene Anstine

Well, I keep forgetting to hit the "post" button after I hit the "add photo" button.

Here's a photo.  Note that, in addition to being set up to run backwards (crank set toward front of locomotive, not front of engine), the crank bolt that holds the rod is completely contained by the driver center.  That is, it is roughly 15 degrees from a centerline from crankpin to axle center.  

Oh - and the photo is still there - #2 in Erik's initial post.  I would repeat it here, but I cannot grab it without repeating the entire post.  iPad inflexibility, I guess.

Bob, you are correct. In the second photo, there is no way I see that the siderod gets to the bottom with things in the correct position. Case closed for that one.

Better get Gary to turn that thing before he runs it. I sent it back months ago. Who knows if he did it or not. I didn’t run it.. only put smoke pellets in it and turned on the whistle. Bob you should write Gary and tell him. 

Check the prototype cab forward photos on Key's website; the eccentric cranks are angled away from the cylinders, as opposed to the much more common posture of pointing toward the cylinders.  http://www.keymodels.net/id16.html                          Today's Soo Line #1003 2-8-2 has the eccentric crank pointing away from the cylinders, too.   This was a bit more common on the locomotives built in the approximate 1913 era, such as #1003. See photos of articulateds built in the 1913 +/- period......lagging eccentric cranks, not leading.

Eric's photo just above does portray the eccentric crank being in a rather extreme position; perhaps it is loose. But then, all of Eric's other photos look just the way cab forwards looked in operation, in photos of the period.

Have never heard a satisfactory explanation on why the eccentric cranks on some locomotives lag,  and on far more locomotives, they lead.

Number 90 posted:

Nobody does smoke better than you do, Erik.  My hat is off!

I agree, it's some of the better photoshopped real-life smoke effects on a model I've seen. I have noticed plenty of people in magazines (especially RMC) are doing it, but most do it very poorly. The lighting doesn't match the smoke at all and there are usually very well-defined borders between the smoke photo and the real model. These shots don't have that look (thank goodness).

This one, looked a little odd to me until I realized that I wasn't seeing the drafting from the end of the stack you'd expect from a locomotive at speed (not to mention the angle of the smoke for something that's supposed to be moving at all):

Thought not perfect, it's still better than most post-shot smoke digital effects I've ever seen.

I look at this shot and think back to when I heard that Phillip Anschutz was looking over the real loco at Sacramento in the museum one night, which led some to think he'd pondered maybe taking a page from UP's playbook and pulling that AC-12 out of there and getting her restored to operation. I'd rather have seen that happen than the 4014 restoration currently underway!

Me too!

Have never heard a satisfactory explanation on why the eccentric cranks on some locomotives lag, and on far more locomotives, they lead.

My explanation above was not satisfactory?

The other possible reason is Walschaerts gear on slide valve cylinders.  The intake ports are different, and a different motion is required.

Erik - Gary will spot it quicker than I did.  It will take him 30 seconds to fix it.  The guy is a genius with this stuff.

The other possible reason is Walschaerts gear on slide valve cylinders.  The intake ports are different, and a different motion is required.

Bob2 - a good partial explanation. or perhaps, full explanation !

For those who have this locomotive and the rods are positioned incorrectly a 3.0 mm nut drives will solve the problem. ''Just loosen the eccentric, reposition it, and re-tighten it. That's all there is to it.'' I got that from Gary Schrader 1/2 hour ago.

With respect to the question of why the eccentric cranks on some locomotives lead the main crank, while on others they lag, here's a partial explanation for Walschaerts gear, at least. 

Engines fitted with Walschaerts gear can be arranged to derive the proper motion of the valve stem for forward travel of the locomotive by either (1) dropping the link block in the rocking link or (2) raising  the link block in the rocking link. The eccentric crank will therefore lean ahead of the crank pin, or will lag behind it, when rods are at BDC, depending upon whether the proper valve motion for forward movement (or reverse) is being derived from the top or the bottom of the rocking link. 

In the most common application of Walschaerts gear, the bottom of the rocking link is closer to the cylinder/valve chest than the top of the link when the rods are at BDC. In other words, the rocking link slants backward, like this -- \ .  When the gear is set up this way, the eccentric rod leads the crank pin.

In the less-common arrangement, however (which is geometrically opposite), with the rods at BDC, the rocking link leans forward, like this -- /.  In this configuration, because the valve motion for forward travel of the locomotive is derived from the opposite end of the rocking link, the eccentric pin lags the crank pin in order to impart opposite motion to the rocking block.

This difference can be seen in the photos below of two locomotives fitted with different configurations of the same basic Walschaerts gear. Presumably the common arrangement had some design and/or production benefits, but I don't know exactly why it became the standard. As far as I know, Baker gear was always driven by a leading eccentric crank, because the basic mechanism was not reversible in the same way as the Walschaerts rocking link.

(1) The most-common arrangement for Walschaerts gear: eccentric crank leading the main crank, with the rocking link leaning backward, when rods are at BDC:

(2) The other possible arrangement for Walschaerts gear: eccentric crank lagging the main crank, with the rocking link leaning forward, when rods are at BDC:

Much better explanation.  Here is what I posted:

some locomotive operators wanted the radius rod to be down in normal operation, so Baldwin rigged the cab forward engines for reverse running.

BOB2 -- I'd like to know more about that. What do you think might have been the reason for wanting the rod to be down in normal (i.e. forward?) operation? Perhaps it was related to the "preferred" operation of the reversing lever in the cab --whether to "push" or to "pull" for the same result. I can't think of any reason why one configuration would be mechanically preferable to the other, since the upper and lower halves of the rocking link are symmetrical and the valve events would therefore the same whether they are derived from the top or the bottom of the link (so long as the motion of the link is reversed with respect to the preference for "radius rod down" versus "radius rod up" as the normal position). 

I've never taken an in depth interest in cab forwards, but I have to say that this is OGR at its best! Decent organized and conversations were we can expand our knowledge and share our passion. Following closely.

I think it was "fail safe" - if something broke at 80 mph, at least you would not get slammed into reverse.  Not an expert at these things.

Found this on the Net:

http://www.nwhs.org/qna/ecrank.html

Simon

Alas, I need the 2 syllable version mentioned.

An interesting discussion in the http link. I'm not quite sure what's being said about "inside" versus "outside" admission -- need to read that again. Also, the eccentric crank end does not trace an ellipse (as one person asserts), any more than the main crank does. 

Just to illustrate BOB2's comment about the cab-forwards having been set up for reverse running in regular service, I've posted the photo below (again from MR Cyclopedia Vol. 1). The eccentric lags the crank (when rods are at BDC) with respect to its relation to the the cylinders, and the rocking link has been positioned opposite the common Walschaerts arrangement so that the engine will run in "reverse" (i.e. "forward" with respect to the engineer's position because the whole locomotive is turned around) when the engineer operates the reversing lever in the "normal" manner.

In other words, the engineer doesn't have to compensate in his mind for the fact that the engine is running backward when he manipulates the controls. At least, that's how I understand the purpose of the valve gear arrangement shown here: Forward motion of the engine is achieved by "dropping" the block and radius rod in the rocking link, just as the engineer would do on a regular SP cab-behind engine. This has been an interesting discussion about something I hadn't paid much attention to before. 

I often refer to The Steam Locomotive in America: Its Development in the Twentieth Century by Alfred W. Bruce, for helpful explanations, but Bruce does discuss this question explicitly.

Oops -- I mean to say "... but Bruce does not discuss this question explicitly."

Perhaps I was snoozing, but what does "BDC" stand for?

Oh, I was just using BDC as shorthand for "Bottom Dead Center" to describe the position of the main crank pins and rods.

Thank you.

Back to the Key model: I have it on good authority that Erik's shot is an anomaly, and that at least one was delivered with eccentrics secured at the correct angle.  The model in the shot may have hit something during packing/unpacking.

One of mine is correct and the other is not. I will correct it when my nutdriver arrives.

Are the eccentric cranks on the Key model held in place only by the pressure of the nut?

On the two Sunset/3rd Rail engines I own, the position of the eccentric cranks is determined by a narrow tab cast into the back face of each crank (like a "key") that fits into a slot in the main crankpin. This seems like a pretty secure arrangement, as long as the slot in the main crankpin is in the right place when it leaves the factory. 

Fantastic photos and model!