Speculating on cost of DCS license for atlas

I think Brian really hit it on the head with 2 quotes:

"It’s looking more and more to me that this deal was more about Atlas getting access to the MTH factory than the tooling."

Bingo!  I believe this has been Atlas' real problem over the past few years - manufacturing.  And the deal solves the issue.

"The real value in O gauge was K-Line. It’s a travesty that they couldn’t stay in business."

Amen, amen, amen!  There are some aspects of MTH that I will miss, e.g. accessories, steel-related cars, PRR N6b's.  DCS is not one of them.  K-Line, however, was on the verge of eclipsing everyone in 2004 before their somewhat sketchy decisions sank them.

George

I'm almost certain the locomotive tooling and the license to offer DCS are two completely separate deals.   The DCS system is a separate entity from any locomotive tooling deals.

It looks like the demise of TMCC at Atlas was a bit premature. TMCC locomotives are available for -order from Atlas.

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-406...e-iron-range-52.aspx

"TMCC locomotives are available for -order from Atlas."

I wonder how old that listing is given the price of $290 or so.  Seems on the low side for a TMCC equipped loco from Atlas.  Eventually they will let us know definitely what is going on regarding production of TMCC locos, no doubt. Just not yet.  Maybe they don't know for sure.

@Madockawando posted:

It looks like the demise of TMCC at Atlas was a bit premature. TMCC locomotives are available for -order from Atlas.

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-406...e-iron-range-52.aspx

Everyone knows that Atlas has some locomotives in the pipeline that were announced with TMCC that haven't been delivered.

The fact they have something available for order with TMCC really doesn't mean anything.

@MichRR714 posted:

Everyone knows that Atlas has some locomotives in the pipeline that were announced with TMCC that haven't been delivered.

The fact they have something available for order with TMCC really doesn't mean anything.

Has anyone just straight up asked Atlas if TMCC will be available on future O scale locomotives?  I just sent them an email asking just that...

@Landsteiner posted:

"TMCC locomotives are available for -order from Atlas."

I wonder how old that listing is given the price of $290 or so.  Seems on the low side for a TMCC equipped loco from Atlas.  Eventually they will let us know definitely what is going on regarding production of TMCC locos, no doubt. Just not yet.  Maybe they don't know for sure.

I'd bet money that's the price for the conventional version.  No way the list price for the TMCC version is under $300.

Since we're indulging in speculation, here is mine.

Lionel licenses TMCC for Atlas O products but has reserved the more advanced Legacy system for its own products. Atlas O hasn't used Legacy either because Lionel would not license it to them to preserve its exclusivity or Lionel required a higher license fee than Atlas was willing to pay. So, Atlas has had to use an inferior system.

It seems that MTH will be continuing to make, upgrade and license DCS, which also includes DCC that can be used for 2-rail O scale, a market segment to which Atlas sells. Therefore, by using DCS under license from MTH, Atlas O will have a system that is competitive with Legacy. That's why I expect to see Atlas O products exclusively with DCS.

Just conjecture on my part.

MELGAR

A question for Those who use DCS primarily: does it make any difference to you as an Atlas customer if Atlas offers both DCS and TMCC or would you prefer Atlas only offer DCS? I could be wrong, but my sense is that DCS users would prefer that Atlas offer DCS only. But it might be a misunderstanding on my part.

@Csxcellent posted:

Is it safe to assume that dcs is likely cheaper to license than tmcc? The sounds and remote are usually considered to be much better with Lionel (especially legacy). Furthermore, lionels brand name is also high value and compatibility with Lionel is extremely convenient….

The cost of any licensing deal has more to do with the quality of the salesman negotiating the deal than the quality of the product(s) being licensed.

@Rich Melvin posted:

The cost of any licensing deal has more to do with the quality of the salesman negotiating the deal than the quality of the product(s) being licensed.

It’s looking like mth dcs got a decent deal, as prices are either the same (44 toner) or higher (sd40-2). Also, I’m wondering if the chip shortage and inflation are showing up in train prices (we’ll see the next Lionel catalog prices).

@Madockawando posted:

It looks like the demise of TMCC at Atlas was a bit premature. TMCC locomotives are available for -order from Atlas.

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-406...e-iron-range-52.aspx

@MichRR714 posted:

Everyone knows that Atlas has some locomotives in the pipeline that were announced with TMCC that haven't been delivered.

The fact they have something available for order with TMCC really doesn't mean anything.

Yeah those have been available to order on their website for like over three years AFAIK.

@Madockawando posted:

A question for Those who use DCS primarily: does it make any difference to you as an Atlas customer if Atlas offers both DCS and TMCC or would you prefer Atlas only offer DCS? I could be wrong, but my sense is that DCS users would prefer that Atlas offer DCS only. But it might be a misunderstanding on my part.

I could care less what they offer.  But whatever they offer should work well in lash-ups, and TMCC leaves a lot to be desired in that arena.  I also want prices to remain in check, and I think offering two systems make it more challenging to keep the price lower.  Plus more SKUs usually means more complexity and makes it harder for customers to find what they want.  DCS allows you to run with DCS and DCC (as of PS 3.0) as well as conventional AC and DC operation.  Because of that, I think it makes sense for Atlas WRT their business segments.

@Madockawando posted:

A question for Those who use DCS primarily: does it make any difference to you as an Atlas customer if Atlas offers both DCS and TMCC or would you prefer Atlas only offer DCS? I could be wrong, but my sense is that DCS users would prefer that Atlas offer DCS only. But it might be a misunderstanding on my part.

It makes no difference to me.  I like and root for all the O gauge brands as it gives us more variety and quality.  Ten years ago I owned no MTH locomotives but got turned onto them by the price/quality formula after having a string of bad luck with Lionel.  Not to turn this into a debate, that is just what happened to me.  But if it makes sense for Atlas to offer both, then I view that as a good thing.  The practicalities and economics will probably dictate DCS only going forward.

One thing about this hobby I've learned, especially in this gauge, is never speculate.  It is usually incorrect.

@rplst8 posted:

I could care less what they offer.  But whatever they offer should work well in lash-ups, and TMCC leaves a lot to be desired in that arena.  I also want prices to remain in check, and I think offering two systems make it more challenging to keep the price lower.  Plus more SKUs usually means more complexity and makes it harder for customers to find what they want.  DCS allows you to run with DCS and DCC (as of PS 3.0) as well as conventional AC and DC operation.  Because of that, I think it makes sense for Atlas WRT their business segments.

I tend to agree with you on the short comings of TMCC. I also find that ERR cruise commander is more prone to stalling due power interruption on switches, crossovers, and less than perfect track. My Legacy and Proto Sound 3 Engines rarely give me these problems. TMCC speed control also feels clunky compared to the newer systems.

On another tread, I floated out the idea of using Proto Sound 3 in future Atlas O Masterline locomotives and got a very poor reception from the other members.