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THIS IS WHAT MANY FEAR ABOUT CHANGING ANYTHING

 

 

I seem to recall that some of the very arguments against phones and cameras, blocking aisles, not paying attention and walking into people or displays are some of the same being made about the stroller issue and they apparently either haven't come to pass or are minimal at best. Let's just take a wait and see attitude and stop with the what if this, that and the other thing all happen at the same time.

 

Jerry

Last edited by baltimoretrainworks

I wouldn't worry too much about this at our level.  There are only a few things that could happen and not all of them are bad:

1) The few people that really want to bring strollers will and it will either work or it won't.  If it doesn't I am sure the ED can change the rules back.

2) Thousands of extra people show up who have always wanted to bring strollers but couldn't.  Yeah...the TCA is saved!

3)  No one brings strollers and nothing changes.

 

In the whole scheme of things I am more worried about declining attendance and membership than strollers at a meet.  BigRail

 

     I know this is off the topic of strollers. Most of my life I have been able to walk but for the past almost 5 years I have been in A wheelchair. I have been run down 2 times by cars that have waved me across an intersection and then ran me over. Another time I was crossing a parking lot and had a young kid that had tinted windows back over me in the wheelchair looked out his drivers side window that was down he realized he ran me over and laid tire to get away. The last time I was changing A flat tire in the pouring down rain on the parkway and someone in A blue car laid on his horn and swerved at me and I put u my hand as A reflex and hit my hand off his passenger side mirror and folding back my pinky finger on the wrong side of the palm of my hand. I had to unbend my finger to get the work glove off my hand to get the glove off when I finished changing the tire. Manny times when I try to open doors to go inside A building as I open the door men will walk around me to get into the building and not as much of A thank you for opening the door. I can see A child or A woman going in front of me but A perfectly healthy man doing it really PMO. Being in line to buy things at A store people will just walk in front of you like as if you don't even exist. It knocks you down A few pegs in life when you used to be able to get around fine and then the next day you cant walk anymore. I was brought up to be respectful of other people but it is very hard when people keep on disrespecting you but 2 wrongs don't make A right. I do my best to not run over any ones toes with my wheelchair but sometimes it gets very frustrating when people walk in front of you and just stand there for 7 or 10 minutes looking at something and you have to weight until they are through because you cant get by because of other people coming the other way. I am sorry for spewing off about this subject but I just wanted everyone to understand the point of view from someone who is disabled. Thank you for your time and take care. Choo Choo Kenny P.S. Quit parking in handicapped spaces if you don't need them it can be A $300.00 to $500.00 fine if you get caught depending on where you live.

Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by jmiller320:
quote:
What was the reason for banning cells and cameras?
 
Some of the collectors were afraid that someone would send out teams of shoppers and beat them to the treasure.

Seriously?  That's insane!

No, this was not a serious threat when smoke signals and Morse code telegrams were the only Eastern Division-sanctioned means of communications on the York Fairgrounds.

 

Of course there were some RV fires. 

 

George

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I, for one, are in favor of strollers because it means that we are allowing young folks with kids to come, enjoy the show, buy something, and get interested in our hobby. We are constantly talking about getting more young people into our hobby and allowing strollers is one way to help attain that goal.

As far as the isles being too narrow, I hope the Fire Marshall is involved to assure that a minimum aisle width is maintained at all times.  In case of emergency the aisles must be wide enough to assure that everyone walking through the exhibition halls can get safely to a fire exit without getting caught up in aisles that are too cluttered and narrow.

Originally Posted by M.D.:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I, for one, are in favor of strollers because it means that we are allowing young folks with kids to come, enjoy the show, buy something, and get interested in our hobby. We are constantly talking about getting more young people into our hobby and allowing strollers is one way to help attain that goal.

As far as the isles being too narrow, I hope the Fire Marshall is involved to assure that a minimum aisle width is maintained at all times.  In case of emergency the aisles must be wide enough to assure that everyone walking through the exhibition halls can get safely to a fire exit without getting caught up in aisles that are too cluttered and narrow.

I think strollers are good idea, too.  And with the aging of the boomers and reduction in vendors appearing at the meet (think Purple Hall with the loss of Barry's or Brown Hall with 1-2 less vendors), the widening of the aisles shouldn't be a problem.

 

George

Kenny, I'd imagine everyone here knows someone disabled.

I would counter your well-explained points by saying that:

  1. There are jerks of every kind who simply don't care about anything outside their own skin, including some in wheelchairs
  2. There are people in those 'scooters' who have no issue other than keeping the [bleep]ing spoon out of their mouths
  3. Too many people are relying on 'carts' of various types these days, when in the past they wouldn't have had them
  4. There are people who feel it's everyone else's job in life to deal around them personally, and never the other way around
  5. And some of the people in # 4 are in wheelchairs

Now, all that said, there are also jerks who would kick a cane out of someone's hand just for laughs. The people who almost ran you down are like that, too.

But self-centered behavior goes each way. That's where the PC types fail in their arguments because, again, there are jerks both in and out of wheelchairs.

I am all for a disabled person who needs a scooter to get whatever he/she may need to do the show.  I am not for the person who is overweight and not disabled who rents a scooter.  We have all seen this.  I know the people who rent them are chasing the buck.  It would be so wrong if a real disabled person needed a scooter and they were all out already rented to some who are fat and not disabled.

 

The scooter rental for persons who need them is a good program.  

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

Lots of comment on this subject.  I can not help but wonder how many people posting on this have ever been to York.  Of course, everyone has an opinion and wants/likes to be heard

and should be.   York is a place you have to be at to understand the comments and concerns.  I have always been impressed with the quality of the EMT people who are present at York.  Having been a Police EMT back in my younger days, I always converse with some of these great people about the training they receive today.  

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

Since I have years of experience running through various types of flea markets, I'd

prefer not dancing through a minefield of strollers and aisle-wide wheelchairs centered

to impede all passage.  (not to mention the family reunions of gabbers grouped at the

crossroads of aisles to most effectively block any progress)  The solution, but maybe 

not the cheapest...rent on buildings?...would be to widen the aisles so at least two of

those wheelchairs could pass, and the ambulatory could pass a wheelchair or a stroller.

I know what I am looking for, and could get through any building rapidly, if it wasn't

an obstacle course.

It was at Timonium several years ago when on received two ripped socks and bloody flaps gouged into both of my Achilles tendons. Two separate strollers and not so much as an "excuse me" from either. I will keep my mouth shut from this point forward. If I get whacked at York in Oct, I will communicate my position to TCA ED. For now, I'm just just looking forward to October. 

For the best part, most folk in wheelchairs need them, meaning they are wheelchair bound, scooters on the other hand are NOT disable devices....they are mobility aids, most folk use them for the mall and shopping etc, not useable in the home.....unlike a wheelchair. If heavy or able people want to use a scooter (at York) I think a better solution would be rent a wheelchair and must be accompanied with a attendent to push them around. Safer for everyone......and will sort a few of the 'culprit's out!

 

Must end by saying the camera thingy baffles me......

 

 

What was the reason for banning cells and cameras?
 
Some of the collectors were afraid that someone would send out teams of shoppers and beat them to the treasure.
 
Back in the day before cellphones some enterprising individuals would use walkie talkies to fan out thru the member halls to secure the best deals around when they were there to be had in the earlier hectic collecting days. Cellphones were considered an extension of the walkie talkie and it's purpose.
I have been clocked many times by brain dead individuals with backpacks that spin around without being cognizant of their surroundings.
The isles would be wide enough if those that require the use of electric carts used them in an intelligent way without stopping in the middle of the isle to google the merchandise. Isles wide enough for 2 carts side by side and people to pass? Probably would require a 25% reduction in isles per hall.  Not enough additional buildings with decent lighting and space. Most isle problems are caused by stupid and inconsiderate actions.
The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?



quote:
(not to mention the family reunions of gabbers grouped at the



crossroads of aisles to most effectively block any progress)  The solution, but maybe 

not the cheapest...rent on buildings?...would be to widen the aisles so at least two of

those wheelchairs could pass, and the ambulatory could pass a wheelchair or a stroller.





 

Not just a Train Show phenomena, any place there are walking isles, groups will expand to block the entire isle, occasionally stopping to have a chat. Wider isles would help, but not eliminate the problem.  

Yeah, why is that? Grocery stores, department stores, you name it. I just don't put up with it anymore. If the group doesn't move in a reasonable amount of time, I politely excuse myself and walk through the middle of them.
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

quote:
(not to mention the family reunions of gabbers grouped at the

crossroads of aisles to most effectively block any progress)  The solution, but maybe 

not the cheapest...rent on buildings?...would be to widen the aisles so at least two of

those wheelchairs could pass, and the ambulatory could pass a wheelchair or a stroller.



 

Not just a Train Show phenomena, any place there are walking isles, groups will expand to block the entire isle, occasionally stopping to have a chat. Wider isles would help, but not eliminate the problem.  

 

I wonder how it's going to work getting the strollers on and off the shuttle buses?

 

I hadn't seen the rule or lack thereof concerning strollers (my daughter is too big for one at nine years old, and has school on Thursday and Friday anyway), partly because it doesn't really apply to me. I also don't know what the rules are regarding smoking on the fairgrounds for the same reason. But I do hope that the rule says that if you have a stroller, there must be a child and an adult with it.

 

Regardless, I cannot picture a scenario where a stroller is going to make me have less than a great time while I am there. Remember all the flack about backpacks last year? I don't remember seeing one there, though I'm sure there were. I remember seeing a lot of trains, a lot of friends, and a bit of food, but no backpacks (or cell phones, cameras, walkie talkies, or any other "show stoppers").

 

J White

 

 

First, let me say that I am not hostile to wheel chairs....my brother had to use one, and

at my age, I might land in one way too soon, and have twice for surgeries.  Wider aisles would help.

I do cringe when people say they go to York to socialize and not for the

trains, for I immediately think:  "Oh, so YOU are the one blocking the aisle intersections!"  So far, I have managed to suppress the desire, when encountering the conference being held in the traffic lanes, to yell, at the top of my voice, "Move your a****!", or "Get a room!"

(Of course, only a few read our complaints here, and any it will apply to, don't think it

does)

On the return trip from my recent Great Northwest adventure, I stop in Ohio to visit my one remaining aunt, she has two knee replacements and recently fell and broke an arm. Well again, and on the mend, I did breakfast with her last Sunday morning, she has a walker.  I also have a walker from hip replacement, seven years ago, a humbling experience.  It's just a matter of time, all will experience some difficulty. We need to respect our aging process.

Originally Posted by Mike CT:

On the return trip from my recent Great Northwest adventure, I stop in Ohio to visit my one remaining aunt, she has two knee replacements and recently fell and broke an arm. Well again, and on the mend, I did breakfast with her last Sunday morning, she has a walker.  I also have a walker from hip replacement, seven years ago, a humbling experience.  It's just a matter of time, all will experience some difficulty. We need to respect our aging process.

^^^ This is why the aisles need to be wider.

 

One of my favorite sound bites came at lunch before York - one of the people at the next table described the person who blocks an aisle as a "human cork".

 

And sorry to be anal about it, but it's "aisle", not "isle".  Thanks to those literate folks who get it right.

About mobility aids...I sometimes use a cane and used to have to use it even to get from the car to the shopping cart corral at the store. Chairs, walkers and canes belong with the person using them and should be considered part of their body. If you wouldn't shove the person out of the way to look at something, don't shove the chair, walker or cane. The same goes for kicking or shoving a kid in a stroller. 

 

In the same line, if you use anything to move around, you're responsible for where it goes, just as you would be were you fully able and bumping into people with your feet. I can't recall being hit by a regular wheelchair user, but I've been knocked down by people on the store's scooters. I'll be charitable and assume they were unfamiliar with the controls.

 

We backpacked our son in crowded areas. He was less likely to grab anything and could see a lot more from that vantage point. Twenty-five years ago, there were fewer people perpetually on phones, walking fast with their heads down, but people still ran into or over the stroller. They also ran into my back and knocked me forward, which pushed the stroller into things. 

 

I understand that tables are money and space at shows isn't cheap, but there are always out of the way pockets where a few well-placed folding chairs could give people the hint to stop and talk there, not in the aisles. Narrow aisles and no stopping places don't lend themselves to good traffic flow. Also, providing a sitting spot might encourage some to walk and not use a power chair. If I know I can sit when need be, I'll leave my cane in the car.

Originally Posted by Mallard4468:
And sorry to be anal about it, but it's "aisle", not "isle".  Thanks to those literate folks who get it right.


A great teacher of mine once gave the following lesson on the difference:

 

An aisle is where you will find people walking, while an isle is where you will find Gilligan (or better yet, Ginger and Mary Ann).

 

Andy

I, for one, am tired of people who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose", and it bugs the heck out of me.
 
Personally, I'm tired of lazy people and frustrated by others who defend poor grammar and spelling.
 
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

 

quote:
Thanks to those literate folks who get it right.



 

 

Do you feel superior and important now?

 

Who the heck are you to judge other people's literacy?

This is a chat board, not a legal or professional document.
Nor is it a work of literature.

 

 

 




quote:
I, for one, am tired of people who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose", and it bugs the heck out of me.




 

Don't forget to, too, and two.

 

Posting a correction is one thing. Implying that other posters are illiterate is something else.

Feel free to block my posts, and those of other people who make grammatical and spelling errors. You are likely to see much fewer posts.

 

 

quote:
Mis-spelling a word like "Mississippi" is one thing.  Using the wrong word entirely is quite another



 

Long ago I learned that there are many people with interesting thoughts who are not very good at spelling, grammar, or proper word use. Some of them are very highly skilled in other areas, and are very willing to share their knowledge.

 

To call people out for their shortcomings in writing on a toy train chat board is just plain rude, and mean spirited.

 

Last edited by C W Burfle
You see the clog at malls, too. Last weekend I saw a family of four, all walking line abreast. Nobody could get by them, they were all walking so tightly together.
They were utterly oblivious to a mass of angry people behind them.
Finally, I said pretty loudly, "I bet of they handcuffed each person together, they could block all the other pedestrians in both directions!" Several people laughed and the family turned around in shock. You could see they had no idea what the consequences of having to walk side by side...


Originally Posted by Mallard4468:

       
One of my favorite sound bites came at lunch before York - one of the people at the next table described the person who blocks an aisle as a "human cork".








       
I love that, and will be using that in the future
Last edited by p51

New Jersey requires a doctor's note for handicapped ID or plates and has changed the placard to have an expiration date. Your also supposed to be carrying the "disabled persons card" they give you which while it doesn't have a photo does have your name.

A college I taught at in NJ wouldn't accept the state tag but required you go to security with all the ID and get a college issued card to park in the handicapped spots--stopped them from using Mom's tag.

Scotie

I haven't been to York, so I'm looking at this from a slight disadvantage.
But I think its general enough to group it in with the rest of our stroller encounters.
 
A stroller is not the same as allowing access for an older disabled rail fan.
 Its a parental convenience.
 
I think the strollers belong on a sidewalk for a few reasons, but here' the main one .
#1. the child isn't old enough to truly appreciate this*.
  
   When the child is old enough to walk and join us, I encourage it.
 In "the old days", I wasn't welcome till I had some sense, and still really wasn't. I hold a tiny grudge, because I was a little adult. I didn't like the attitude, but I understood it even preschool. "Kids can be animals".
  And trains can be expensive, they are not all toys. Few from outside the hobby realize this, we talk about that too. Sorry, this isn't helping that mindset IMO.   
 
  I'm not against kids being there. Just not in the halls of a crowded show, at the age bowel control isn't yet established.
That is rude to expect others to deal with it IMO.
Maybe in the open show areas with layouts to watch... ok.
 
 Setting up stroller friendly aisle times, I'd be more in favor of.
 
   Sorry to say, there also might be more than one stench, and mess to clean, as I involuntarily heave too (ok....unsuccessfully, from injury, but it hurts bad)
 It only happens from that special smell only a baby can make.
(??? I love kids, worked at "thee kids pizza place" for many years, and cleaned 100's of epic messes, no issue. It just started "coming up" one day)
  *That's where the kid in the stroller should be...a ball pit 
 
Natural? Sure, but so is B.O.
A much lesser "evil", we all cry about attention to that too. But its a cakewalk in comparison.  

    
 
Originally Posted by richabr:
The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

That depends.Will the needs of the many suffocate the few?

Will the needs of a few just mildly inconvenience the many?

     

Mike CT has a good point below.

 

Originally Posted by Mike CT: It's just a matter of time, all will experience some difficulty. We need to respect our aging process.

 Unless you're looking forward to "Carousel", a la' "Logan's Run", that's good advice.  

 

 

Originally Posted by Mallard4468:

 

And sorry to be anal about it, but it's "aisle", not "isle". But I do Thank the more literately minded folks, who got it right.

Easy enough to fix. You're welcome.

 My dyslexic Mother focused more on manners, than my writing correctly. 

 With some effort, you can even be mean and nice, both at the same time.

 

 

Originally Posted by Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan:

About mobility aids...I sometimes use a cane and used to have to use it even to get from the car to the shopping cart corral at the store. Chairs, walkers and canes belong with the person using them and should be considered part of their body. If you wouldn't shove the person out of the way to look at something, don't shove the chair, walker or cane. The same goes for kicking or shoving a kid in a stroller. 

 

In the same line, if you use anything to move around, you're responsible for where it goes, just as you would be were you fully able and bumping into people with your feet. I can't recall being hit by a regular wheelchair user, but I've been knocked down by people on the store's scooters. I'll be charitable and assume they were unfamiliar with the controls.

 

We backpacked our son in crowded areas. He was less likely to grab anything and could see a lot more from that vantage point. Twenty-five years ago, there were fewer people perpetually on phones, walking fast with their heads down, but people still ran into or over the stroller. They also ran into my back and knocked me forward, which pushed the stroller into things. 

 

I understand that tables are money and space at shows isn't cheap, but there are always out of the way pockets where a few well-placed folding chairs could give people the hint to stop and talk there, not in the aisles. Narrow aisles and no stopping places don't lend themselves to good traffic flow. Also, providing a sitting spot might encourage some to walk and not use a power chair. If I know I can sit when need be, I'll leave my cane in the car.

 There are some well thought out statements here.

I use handicap on occasion. Legally. I will normally pass them if busy and I can get close.   "Close enough" is fine, just to help ChChK out if he's behind me.

I also look fit and able, so don't be quick to be parking judge. I'm not supposed to walk but do.

 

***Giving some extra space around that area IS NECESSARY for us to begin movement without frog spearing ankles. Often , gaps are filled by shoes before we can react. 

 

 I had to give up daily driving quite a few years ago, and spent a lot of time pedaling, on scooters, or walking, while recovering from the initial diaphragm injury (did it again, only worse).

  While being "out" was great, I would normally have at least one close call every single day just crossing at a few crosswalks.

  ChooChooKenny has confirmed it, I'm not alone.

 

"The many" are rude idiots that assume whatever they get away with in their little "its all about me lives" is OK. Its not about rules, or law, for them, it's about "get er done" and "only illegal when your caught".

  People walking or riding again after years behind the wheel, you best watch out for drivers in a hurry. The majority under 40, honestly think they have right of way at all times in a car. And even those that know better, are likely giving you the Jersey Salute below the door line, as they mouth sorry, but continue to push through!

 Ummm..... You same folks walk the same way too .

  

 

Originally Posted by Martin H:
If you are in merry old England, then by all means spell color with a "u".
 
But not here.
 
Originally Posted by Airedale:

........and its colour not color! 

 

 

Its an international forum.

He is also more correct if we follow old protocol, and avoided deviations from it, as you insist we should.

  Had others followed "the rules" in the past, you would be spelling it just like that.

 

Originally Posted by Matt01:
Originally Posted by Martin H:
... Personally, I'm tired of lazy people and frustrated by others who defend poor grammar and spelling.
 

 

Originally Posted by Martin H:
Mis-spelling a word ...... 

 

People that incorrectly insert a hyphen into the word "misspelling" make me so angry!!!!!!

 

 And some of us who don't care as much, hate being "graded" on it.

Just make the correction, then move on.

You may even get a thank you that way.

 

You can't easily stop evolution. Language evolves, and you've recognized its happened before to English...

 So I'm at a loss as to how to convey how much the correction annoys others, as deeply as the mistake bothers you folks.

 I can only say spell check is likely responsible for you missing how trivial the rest of the world actually finds this during social commentaries.

 

 If this was intended to be instructional, I might agree. But it's not. 

 

 Sometimes a spell checker is responsible for goofing a fix, worse than the first error, and done by the "app." after human review, during submitting.

(I'm curious if you use one too, as that would be hypocritical in my eyes) 

 

  I'd prefer an untrained poets pen, without the blanket of grammar being used to smother its truths.

  Where thoughts dance in fields that grow wild without the fencing of spelling casting shadows across green opportunities of the white pulp wood. 

 

 If I'm alone, I shop in isles.

 

Last edited by Adriatic

being handicapped is totally different than a stroller,,,,,yes we need to attract young people but if they need a stroller ,then I believe they are too young,,to attend,i wouldn't want my  child in that mad mass of people,,,i can see it now ,,,I can hear the lady on the mic,,,,traffic jam in the blue hall,,,,will you please move either the stroller or the scooter now !!!!!

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