Sunset 3rd rail GP7/9s

Scott,

As much as I'm interested in reading your comments about the production of your models, there is no need to apologize for anything about the GP79s. Despite whatever minimal deficiencies there may be, I very much like my B&M GP7 and am completely satisfied with it. I don't think any model can be absolutely correct in every respect, and yours are as good as any I have seen and any I own. I simply don't think the criticisms in this thread are valid or reasonable. I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Sunset B&M F3 that I have on order.

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

Scott,

As much as I'm interested in reading your comments about the production of your models, there is no need to apologize for anything about the GP79s. Despite whatever minimal deficiencies there may be, I very much like my B&M GP7 and am completely satisfied with it. I don't think any model can be absolutely correct in every respect, and yours are as good as any I have seen and any I own. I simply don't think the criticisms in this thread are valid or reasonable. I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Sunset B&M F3 that I have on order.

MELGAR

After all, the B&O wagontop boxcar 3rd rail brought in was missing 2 whole rib on each side to the right of the door, and they still sell well on ebay...

also the atsf stripes  being white not silver is a mater of when the were repainted white was common   I LIKE MINE THANKS SCOTT

I wrote this on a post in 3 rail scale forum, it's worth rebroadcast here.

Mr Mann, thank you and thank Mr Kim of your engineering staff for me and his lovely wife. You guys are miracle workers and bring great joy to my life. I am forever in your debt and the factory and all its workers for building me some things I've always wanted and without you guys I dare say I would likely never have them, these models are worth so much more than we pay for them; yet you still manage to keep the prices so reasonable which all the same makes it possible for me to buy them. Again... my sincere thanks and admiration to you all. I tip my hat and a standing ovation.

Scott did`nt have enough Rock Island GP7 orders so I got an undec unit. It took a little body work, intense masking and an old microscale decal set but now I have a pretty accurate "wings" RI unit. Nice running locomotive as usual from Sunset.   jefferson

WOW.  That is some impressive modeling.  Very nicely done and thank you for sharing!

@mr buttons posted:

Scott did`nt have enough Rock Island GP7 orders so I got an undec unit. It took a little body work, intense masking and an old microscale decal set but now I have a pretty accurate "wings" RI unit. Nice running locomotive as usual from Sunset.   jefferson

Awesome job! More photos of the layout please?

@luvindemtrains posted:

Awesome job! More photos of the layout please?

A real beauty Jefferson!

A recent video on the Jefferson AKA Mr Button's layout with the 1950 version of the Chief and some random railfan fun.

https://youtu.be/p6fOCmoekSo

I sure like my Grande Geeps

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

I sure like my Grande Geeps

I like em a lot too but couldn’t get one as it would have been #4 GP - 1 beyond my budget. Not complaining - I’m happy with my 3 !!! 😜

Erik,

The geeps look great and the bridge just takes them to the next level.

Dave

We get it.  We really do.  We love 3rd Rail!  There.  I said it. (Having some light hearted fun here).  I fully support the line, always part of the reservation cycle, and purchase dozens of models.  Here is what I think would be a more effective and less controversial method of model criticism or review.  Please read without emotion.

The new locomotive purchase aspect of the hobby pretty much may boil down to 3rd Rail. Agree or disagree, another topic and controversy for another day.  But, my opinion is that the real problem is where, when and how these percieved negative comments are written.  

This title of this thread is Sunset 3rd Rail GP7/9s.  Anything can be posted in here such as sales, delivery coments, favorite uncle stories etc.  The next run of 3rd Rail locs will have some errors.  Has to be.  We are all human and we all make mistakes.  Should we bury 3rd rail?  No.  Should we heap praise on them for making errors?  No.  I suggest a poster create a separate thread with a proper title of whatever mat be wrong with the engine.  Here is an example:

Thread title: New Sunset 3rd Rail NYC GP 7 has wrong blah blah blah. Or 3rd Rail Union Pacific GP7 Review (make sure to give a full review, positive and negatives)

Thread context:  (Presentation here is key to keep the fanboys at bay - OK, so maybe I brought out some emotion here). 3rd Rail has released an excellent new NYC GP7, the first accurate afforable attemp by anyone to do this locomotive properly.  However, they did not include engine designation numbers on the side and the fonts.....

So, that is a start.  But we are 2 railers, so it is important to continue to act like one.  Don't stop there.  Add to your thread:

1) seek verification if this is indeed wrong.  2)  Ask for ideas how to fix it.  3) Or tell us how you plan to correct it.  (Of course we are not going to return it, how does that keep Scott in business and support the company?)  As an aside, paint color is an entirely different subject, which I will be glad to take on another time.

The value of a thread like this does many things:

It helps modelers learn about the prototype.  It helps 3rd Rail get even better by you offering suggestions on how to improve the next model.  It helps you learn how to fix your model.  It helps you become a better modeler.  It elevates the community.  After all we don't just buy stuff and run it at 90 mph around a loop. (kidding 3 railers, I'm a post war guy too).  The thread will stay focused on what it is about, and hopefully eliminate all the 3rd rail how great they are (and they are) stuff that is not relevant to the assistance of making your model more correct.  And it helps the brotherhood of the community by doing 2 things.  Not making a guy feel bad and isolated because he posted a 3rd rail criticism, and does not make a 3rd rail patron feel the need to post general glowing comments to a very specific thread that would be off topic.

- Crank

Rock Island!

Erik:  SantaFe Super Chief, to quote (or paraphrase) the late Lucius Beebe, "A time when form and function merged to create something both useful and beautiful".   

......and the Geeps look quite good, too !!

@Eccentric Crank posted:

...

So, that is a start.  But we are 2 railers, so it is important to continue to act like one.  Don't stop there.  Add to your thread:

1) seek verification if this is indeed wrong.  2)  Ask for ideas how to fix it.  3) Or tell us how you plan to correct it.  (Of course we are not going to return it, how does that keep Scott in business and support the company?)  

Unfortunately, that is what some folks actually did.  They returned their copies of the model.  Not all, but some.

As an aside, paint color is an entirely different subject, which I will be glad to take on another time.

I would love to hear more thoughts on the matter.  Personally, I think getting the exact shade of a color wrong is off-limits.  Unless you can prove that every time a railroad painted one of their locomotives it was the same exact color, and stayed that way after exposure to sun, rain, and soot, it's just not worth discussing.  There are obvious and bad mistakes on paint color, and I won't bother bringing up the most recent one from another manufacturer, but everything I've seen in this thread is arguably in the realm of "correctness" color-wise.

Here's a design question for Scott and Jonathan.  Would there be any interference if you had used the proper diameter wheels but with our high-rail flanges?

Jan

@mr buttons posted:

Scott did`nt have enough Rock Island GP7 orders so I got an undec unit. It took a little body work, intense masking and an old microscale decal set but now I have a pretty accurate "wings" RI unit. Nice running locomotive as usual from Sunset.   jefferson

Jeff -

Your paint and decal work is immaculate. Thanks for sharing your Rock Island GP9 produced by Sunset. She's a beauty. And thanks to Scott for producing them.

@rplst8 posted:

I would love to hear more thoughts on the matter.  Personally, I think getting the exact shade of a color wrong is off-limits.  Unless you can prove that every time a railroad painted one of their locomotives it was the same exact color, and stayed that way after exposure to sun, rain, and soot, it's just not worth discussing.  There are obvious and bad mistakes on paint color, and I won't bother bringing up the most recent one from another manufacturer, but everything I've seen in this thread is arguably in the realm of "correctness" color-wise.

Well, I had a Chessie System GP9 with black truck side frames and fuel tank. They were supposed to be dark blue. That's not a shade off, that's an entire color.

Recently found out Caboose Stop Hobbies is doing Illinois Central next run.   Just FYI. Not sure how well that is advertised.   Do not have a lot of details but sure Merlyn at Caboose stop can provide further details if of any interest.

I had ordered a GP7 with Army decoration. 3rd Rail kept me uninformed for over 1 1/2 years. When I finally contacted them I was told they decided not to paint the Army scheme. They said they forgot to notify me.

@jjwyatt posted:

Recently found out Caboose Stop Hobbies is doing Illinois Central next run.   Just FYI. Not sure how well that is advertised.   Do not have a lot of details but sure Merlyn at Caboose stop can provide further details if of any interest.

I had not seen this! Couldn't find it on their site either. If this is the case I am in 100%! I love the IC!

@catnap posted:

Well, I had a Chessie System GP9 with black truck side frames and fuel tank. They were supposed to be dark blue. That's not a shade off, that's an entire color.

Did you remove the chassis and repaint it?

No, I shouldn’t have to for a $700 model. I have 14 MTH & 24 Atlas locomotives and I have never had to repaint anything.

in response to nw21214 I need to ask how many of Scots models do you own???? how many do you have on order ????  and in response to joe faulty we lost out because I think we were the only ones who had that scheme on order .. its all a mater of numbers for Scott

YES CABOOSE STOP HAS COMITTED TO DO ICG     I HAVE ONE ON ORDER COMPLEMENTS OF HIS ON LINE YOU TUBE SHOW     GUYS GIVE MERLYS A CALL !!!

Marty - glad you asked. I own quite a few Sunset Models some with multiple road numbers and some cases complete train consist. And yes I do have items on order from Sunset.  I was also a dealer for Scott for many years. Anything else?

Stephen

Haha.  I finally opened up my PRR GP9.  I placed the little rail as directed.  It looks so much better!

I just ordered a new micrometer from Amazon Prime and I will be getting it on Sunday.  I will be going over this GP9 with a very fine toothed comb on Sunday into Monday.  Maybe I will find something wrong and add to the acrimony.(not the first time,right?)

Norm

Stephen,

I believe the thread only got to this point due to the amount of acrimony that has been posted, which is not my word, but very fitting.  There is an attitude in many posts that people have been personally wronged by errors.  In short we listened, then we listened again and again and again to the same comments.  It didn't matter how many times we have said, "we hear you" and "if you are dissatisfied, please return the model for a full refund", the same issues were pointed out over and over after it was too late to do much about it.  No other manufacturer comes close to being this transparent on the pages of this forum and perhaps this thread is evidence why.

Once again, I will simply state that we listen and we learn.  One of the biggest lessons is not to offer so many road names and/or variations at once.  It is too much for any manufacturer to do let alone a small operation such as Scott's.  Everyone involved has reason to be frustrated.  Just to offer one small bit of insight into this project, there were 20 horn variations alone.  Too many opportunities for someone along the line to make an error.  At the same time, the overwhelming majority of buyers have been pleased with the locomotives.  That has been overshadowed too much in this thread.

Finally, if you have been following the SD40-2 thread, we have been posting very specific information up front to address the very issue this thread has decided to focus on.  Rather than continue to drag out a discussion on a completed project that may not even see a second run, please provide positive input on the front end for SD40-2.  I plan on posting more specific road numbers this weekend for the various road names, and if you have anything to offer, my email is in my profile.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Stephen,

I believe the thread only got to this point due to the amount of acrimony that has been posted, which is not my word, but very fitting.  There is an attitude in many posts that people have been personally wronged by errors.  In short we listened, then we listened again and again and again to the same comments.  It didn't matter how many times we have said, "we hear you" and "if you are dissatisfied, please return the model for a full refund", the same issues were pointed out over and over after it was too late to do much about it.  No other manufacturer comes close to being this transparent on the pages of this forum and perhaps this thread is evidence why.

Once again, I will simply state that we listen and we learn.  One of the biggest lessons is not to offer so many road names and/or variations at once.  It is too much for any manufacturer to do let alone a small operation such as Scott's.  Everyone involved has reason to be frustrated.  Just to offer one small bit of insight into this project, there were 20 horn variations alone.  Too many opportunities for someone along the line to make an error.  At the same time, the overwhelming majority of buyers have been pleased with the locomotives.  That has been overshadowed too much in this thread.

Finally, if you have been following the SD40-2 thread, we have been posting very specific information up front to address the very issue this thread has decided to focus on.  Rather than continue to drag out a discussion on a completed project that may not even see a second run, please provide positive input on the front end for SD40-2.  I plan on posting more specific road numbers this weekend for the various road names, and if you have anything to offer, my email is in my profile.

Thank you Jonathan !!!! 👍👍👍

I have a NYC GP7 and I love it. I hope they do a second run so I can get a  Nickel Plate Road GP7.

@MR-150 posted:

I have a NYC GP7 and I love it. I hope they do a second run so I can get a  Nickel Plate Road GP7.

Me too.  I didn't know I wanted any until I saw the PRR torpedo tube GP7s.  Second run please!  But maybe after the SD40-2 run.  I need to build up my train allowance again. :-)

I have been told in the past that in order to produce an injection molded anything that the dies for such an item actually cost so much that it demands lots of buyers, or high prices on each item(like the new $100 drop bottom gon kits)  to pursue.  So why do these Sunset engines even have plastic bodies at all?  Seems like it'd be cheaper to etch brass sheets and make the bodies that way?  What's the deal?

And, if they have discovered how to make injection molding affordable in small runs, when can we expect to start seeing plastic steam engines for sale too?

@oscaletrains posted:

And, if they have discovered how to make injection molding affordable in small runs, when can we expect to start seeing plastic steam engines for sale too?

I can't see a plastic steam loco being very well "accepted". Most like the feel and heft of die cast, and brass is traditionally THE material for high end stuff, so...

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

I can't see a plastic steam loco being very well "accepted". Most like the feel and heft of die cast, and brass is traditionally THE material for high end stuff, so...

Mark in Oregon

Well, plastic apparently works for these diesels, people buy them.

Absolutely. I have several plastic diesels, from various makers, and they are fine. But you did mention "steam" engines...I once built one of those AHM IHB 0-8-0s. I put in a can motor and had to weight the heck out of it. It ran okay, but never really seemed " right" to me, so I sold it on eBay...

Mark in Oregon

@GG1 4877 posted:

Stephen,

I believe the thread only got to this point due to the amount of acrimony that has been posted, which is not my word, but very fitting.  There is an attitude in many posts that people have been personally wronged by errors.  In short we listened, then we listened again and again and again to the same comments.  It didn't matter how many times we have said, "we hear you" and "if you are dissatisfied, please return the model for a full refund", the same issues were pointed out over and over after it was too late to do much about it.  No other manufacturer comes close to being this transparent on the pages of this forum and perhaps this thread is evidence why.

Once again, I will simply state that we listen and we learn.  One of the biggest lessons is not to offer so many road names and/or variations at once.  It is too much for any manufacturer to do let alone a small operation such as Scott's.  Everyone involved has reason to be frustrated.  Just to offer one small bit of insight into this project, there were 20 horn variations alone.  Too many opportunities for someone along the line to make an error.  At the same time, the overwhelming majority of buyers have been pleased with the locomotives.  That has been overshadowed too much in this thread.

Finally, if you have been following the SD40-2 thread, we have been posting very specific information up front to address the very issue this thread has decided to focus on.  Rather than continue to drag out a discussion on a completed project that may not even see a second run, please provide positive input on the front end for SD40-2.  I plan on posting more specific road numbers this weekend for the various road names, and if you have anything to offer, my email is in my profile.

I agree. Follow the return policy for a full refund if you are not satisfied. Scott and his design team have apologized and agreed to do better if there is a second run.  

I’ve worked with Scott and spoke with Jonathan in the past. I try to do my research and help Scott when I can. Especially in regard to Sp passenger cars and IC SD40s. I will say thank you Scott for creating an NW Gp7 that is better than anyone I’ve owned in any scale. thank Jonathan and Scott for hearing me out on the IC run. I bought an CN&W and a FEC GP7 from Scott and a dealer. Easily two of the best models I’ve over owned. Despite the wheel size you guys killed it in delivering great modes. I greatly appreciate your efforts! A heartfelt thank you is beyond deserved!!!!

I’ll also add since receiving both C&NW and FEC I’ve since ordered some CB&Q models for a possible run 2.

vash44 - Please post picture of your NW GP7.

Thanks, Stephen

I would like to add that I contacted Scott via email about the matter and he responded within 24 hours, apologized for the error and offered me a full refund with zero questions asked. You cannot, as a customer, ask for better service than that because it simply does not exist.

I have 4 2-rail SD40-2's ordered and have no doubt these will be incredible. Neither Lionel nor MTH have gotten this model right so it will be great to see 3rd Rail deliver a superior version of their own. The bar has been set incredibly low by the toy train companies. As long as the 3rd Rail model eliminates the massive gap between the truck side frames and pilots and places a scale-size fuel tank between them (4K gallon in most cases) I will be thrilled with the finished product.

As for reaching out to Jonathan to provide additional info and photos for the Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2's that I have on order - It's been fun. I think he's appreciated the input and it helps to ensure that the most accurate model can be delivered. And I'm not concerned about color issues as the W&LE has one of the easiest paint jobs to create. Nothing fancy but really nice.