Sunset 3rd Rail GP9/GP7

Sunset 3rd Rail locos are beautiful and a pleasure to work on. They run so smooth. I just finished converting two E-9 units to battery control using RailPro and RailPro sound using the installed four speakers.  

 Don

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

catnap posted:

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models, not to mention MTH and Lionel, in my opinion, Sunset/3rd Rail would be hard pressed to receive sufficient order/reservations for these.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

I would go for an accurate GP38-2.  They could run the table with the same chassis -GP38,39,40,38-2,39-2,40-2 and get some economies there.  Then again, seeing the lethargic response for the SD40-2, I don't hold out much hope.

I would ….. if they were produced in my railroad. A dynamic brake option available for each road name would be desirable for me, too …. even if like the way that Athearn does it in HO.

If 3rd Rail sees no profit in producing early ALCO road switchers, I don't see them doing GP7/9's. But, what do I know?

PRRJim, about the "2-motor jerky drives" …. I have a friend with a Atlas GP7. It runs smoothly at something less than 1 scale mph ….   .9 maybe. That's with the QSI board that Atlas was previously using. With Atlas now using the very cool ESU boards, performance certainly won't suffer. 

The MTH Premier and Atlas O GP7/GP9 models have been perfectly satisfactory for me.

MELGAR

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

The Atlas GP7. was eventually followed with a GP9.    Un-decorated model.  With the electronics at the time, EOB and the two can motor system, it ran quite well.  Note the solid bar hand rails.  There was also a straight hood piece that could be used to replace the  dynamic brake blister. 

A nice project several years ago.   

Well, if the market is saturated with Atlas GP7/8, how come I seldom see more than one or two at a train if that?    And the ones I see are usually for western roads I have no interest in.   

I have a pair of Atlas Erie-builts that usually run pretty smoothly, I do admit.   

But the Atlas are still generic, no PRR antennas etc.    And if the trucks are like the dummy C425s I bought and converted WEaver Drives, they are too wide and sit too high.    a 1/16 of an inch or so off and major dimensions is no big deal, but some of the mfg GP9s are 1/4 inch or more too high on the trucks to clear their gearings.

My experience with two motor dries is limited to MTH PAs, AS616, GP30s, Weaver RS11, Weaver U25 (sold), and the above mentioned Erie-builts.    As mentioned the erie-builts are OK, and I got them used at a very good price or I would not have tried them.    All the others are OK but they just are not as smooth as single motor drives.    Also the speed is way too high, I have had to wire them all in series to get them to not behave like slot cars.    So my personal disappointing experience with two motor drives leads me to avoid them.   

What we need are some GP18/20s!

Rule292 posted:

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

Great running, accuracy & electronics are important to most 2-railers, I'm sure. But unfortunately when the price of the "new improved product" runs into 4 figures, it's just quite simply beyond the budget of many of us. I for one would love to see a really decent 2-rail GP38-2, & a CF7, but I'd also want to be able to actually afford them as well, which rules Sunset out for me. If that somehow makes me less of a "discerning" modeller in other's eyes, well tough - it's only a hobby anyway.

Sunset 3rd Raill GGD diesels are not into the 4 digits.    When done in the typical size runs, they are between 650 and 700 - significantly under 4 digits.

For the example the current Atlas O F2/F3 is MSRP 519.95 and the currently announced Sunset F3 is 669.95 which is a difference of $150.     150 is significant, of course but to get features we want, it may be worth it to some.

No denying Sunset makes a superior model, even to Atlas, but the cost difference isn't worth it to me. With Sunset you'll have to pay that full price, with Atlas about decent dealer will give you a sizable discount. Im not trying to bash Scott's models, but when it came to the F3s, I needed two powered units so I couldn't justify paying almost $400 more for the pair. That's almost the price of another locomotive. My two cents. 

One would hope the fidelity and drivetrain of a Sunset rendition could potentially be as successful for them as the GP's were for EMD.  Include a GP9b in the roads that used them for added product variety.

I believe Sunset has had previous experience with the models.  I have a couple of their brass GP9 kits that are missing detail parts.

Bruce

Scott needs to do SW and NW switchers, GP 7/9s, GP20s, GP30s, GP40-2s, and GP15s. In my humble opinion he needs to do smaller engines for a while. I've been waiting for Atlas to bring the Erie Lack Geeps out for what 4 or 5 years now? I wish Scott would use ESU decoders like Atlas, but that can be fixed. He has made steady progress model after model to improve his diesels. Take my beloved GP30. Yes, it has been done by Lionel and MTH in 3 rail with floating pilots. The only version with fixed pilots was the Overland brass model and maybe one other older brass model. I had two of those and they weren't particularly good runners AND the interiors weren't as detailed as what Scott is doing in plastic. If Scott did a GP30 it would instantly become the best O scale GP30 ever made. I think he could do the same for the GP7/9. With the small amount that he needs to get a production run going why not dangle the idea and see how many people bite? 

I’d go for a couple Q GP7s

It seems that the large, 6 axle passenger diesels are overdone but yet Sunset sells the devil out of them. I should also mention F units.  It was my understanding that Atlas was making the uncommon models like the SD40. I thought it strange that Atlas brought out the Calif Zephyr cars but no locos to pull them. Sunset brought out the E Units. I admit I like Atlas locos but I have a couple Weaver GP38s and an RS3 that run well and are 1/2 the price of other brands when you can find them. How about SD7-9 in TrainMan, SD24, RS2,3, so many locos and so little time for a 2 railer.

Dick

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

For the PRR, I would love to see Sunset do the " Torpedo tube"  Gp7

Rule292 posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

It’s not just the Central’s that I believe would appeal to mass production. Differences in shrouded fans, and details like the bulged sides, seldom-modeled vertical grab irons and famous paint schemes like the NYC, ATSF, SP, NYSW and so many other short lines make this a popular locomotive. A loco like this is begging for single motor drive, because of the low hood constraints. 

thanks,

Mario

Sunset/3rd Rail has the SD9 tooling. A logical follow-on to that model would be an accurate SD24/SD24B/SD26//SD18. The superstructure of the SD9 is very similar and the wheelbases and length are the same -- just a matter of changing the cabs and exhaust (except for the SD18), relocating the air tanks and changing to a turbocharged prime mover (again, except for the SD18).

CentralFan1976 posted:

Rule292 posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

It’s not just the Central’s that I believe would appeal to mass production. Differences in shrouded fans, and details like the bulged sides, seldom-modeled vertical grab irons and famous paint schemes like the NYC, ATSF, SP, NYSW and so many other short lines make this a popular locomotive. A loco like this is begging for single motor drive, because of the low hood constraints. 

thanks,

Mario

I agree.  There are many variants that could be done of these classic locomotives.    Many of the big name roads seem to have dabbled in them also which would make them appealing.    Tough sell for this Pennsy guy though I love the NYC geep you have there.   "Sporty looking" is a good description though.  

And as always, the demos were typical classy EMD paint.

I would be in for at least two PRR GP7's for freight service.  Have been holding out for Sunset/3rd Rail to do them. 

Dick, you are mistaken that Atlas did not make CZ locomotives. F3’s in CB&Q, WP, and D&RG were offered; these were the locos originally intended for the CZ. 

+1 for the suggestion of a 3rd Rail GP20. I’d take two GN units, with high short hoods and set up to run long hood forward. 

I'd have a hard time resisting a decent GP-7, either a Rio Grande version or a Katy version done in the as-delivered red paint scheme or even a Rock Island red-and-black version (I'm not so keen on the Mo Pac). 

Jim, I agree Sunset's ability to produce road-specific detail on models is a deciding factor for me as well. I'd be interested in a Pennsy Geep, as long as the Brunswick looks like the E7 Scott did, and not the paler green on the SD unit.

And... Sunset is halfway there with body parts common to the SD unit. CAD design already being done.

I've had very good luck taming the 2 motor drives. All Weaver models need is the crescent shaped motor retainers that came on some units (but not others). Like on my highly detailed RS11 twins. Couple that with series wiring and a good decoder. I run that all day during an open house, with very realistic running characteristics.

This is now so easy - all you have to do is get Scott some minimum number of reservations.  Apparently you do not even have to give him a deposit.  That, to me, is remarkable!

But best of all, it simply cures all of the pent-up desire expressed above.  You can either get the reservations from your like-minded buddies, or as one of our posters did recently, you can reserve them all yourself, re-sell them , and maybe make a profit.

I have GP-7s (or9s?) from two different sources: one is Kemtron, the other is a very nicely done bronze cast model.  I like the GPs, but prefer the SD-7/9.

I'd be in for at least 2 PRR GP9s for general freight service.   PRR had about 300 I think.    I would probably be tempted by more if they did the late version with single large radiator fan instead of the two small ones.   I'd go for the 2 small ones first however, no question.

Then I'd be in for a GP7 with the "torpedo" air tanks on the roof for a local passenger train.  

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

prrjim posted:

Sunset 3rd Raill GGD diesels are not into the 4 digits.    When done in the typical size runs, they are between 650 and 700 - significantly under 4 digits.

For the example the current Atlas O F2/F3 is MSRP 519.95 and the currently announced Sunset F3 is 669.95 which is a difference of $150.     150 is significant, of course but to get features we want, it may be worth it to some.

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

SundayShunter posted:

Rule292 posted:

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

Great running, accuracy & electronics are important to most 2-railers, I'm sure. But unfortunately when the price of the "new improved product" runs into 4 figures, it's just quite simply beyond the budget of many of us. I for one would love to see a really decent 2-rail GP38-2, & a CF7, but I'd also want to be able to actually afford them as well, which rules Sunset out for me. If that somehow makes me less of a "discerning" modeller in other's eyes, well tough - it's only a hobby anyway.

What would be the railroad schemes for the 2-Rail GP38-2 and the CF7? 

For the GP38-2, the best you can get is a Scale-Wheels MTH version, if they are available.

Andrew

SundayShunter posted:

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

Is it any better if a store orders them from a distributor or manufacturer like their other inventory?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

For the PRR, I would love to see Sunset do the " Torpedo tube"  Gp7

Thanks for pointing this out.   As a newbie on all things PRR , ( just a hint of foam ) I wasn't aware they equipped a few GP7's this way.  This knowledge will take the building of one Sunset kit in a whole new direction for me.  Looks like the boiler stack detail is kind of unique?

Bruce

There seems to be a lot more variation in the GP7s by most RRs than the GP9s.     But there is some variety in both.     I think the PRR also had GP7s with and without Dynamic brakes.

Looking back over figures given in Pennsy Power II, seems as if there may have potentially been 8 GP7's so equipped.  Eight were equipped with steam boilers so moving reservoirs up top to accommodate a larger fuel tank was certainly possible.

Bruce

Looking back over figures given in Pennsy Power II, seems as if there may have potentially been 8 GP7's  torpedo equipped.  Eight were equipped with steam boilers so moving reservoirs up top to accommodate a larger fuel tank was certainly possible.

Bruce

GP 7/9’s in scale have been made by Atlas Lionel and MTH.How about a scale ALCO RS 3.Weaver is gone now and whoever has their dies isn’t doing anything with them so let’s have some Alco RS3,s

MR-150 posted:

GP 7/9’s in scale have been made by Atlas Lionel and MTH.How about a scale ALCO RS 3.Weaver is gone now and whoever has their dies isn’t doing anything with them so let’s have some Alco RS3,s

I seem to recall that Atlas has done at least one run of two-Rail RS-3s and could probably do more.

I know Atlas made a RS3 but I would like it to be of true scale dimensions and have fixed pilots 

BobbyD posted:

SundayShunter posted:

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

Is it any better if a store orders them from a distributor or manufacturer like their other inventory?

Unfortunately not; the charges still have to be paid, & ultimately that is by the end user, as an importing dealer will pass the costs on. 

As for liveries; my choice for the GP38-2 should be guessed from my signature; Soo Line white/red please with some variations possible such as their first 10 which had red 'SOO' & numbers on them; the later Soo Line Candy Apple red scheme, & even the ex-MILW 'Bandit' patch job would be something!!

As for the CF7, liveries would have to include Santa Fe & Amtrak I expect, plus LAJ, but the Corporate Genesee & Wyoming colours would look good, maybe with a range of decals to suit various roads that have them. From a purely selfish viewpoint I'd like one done as the Minnesota Transfer's #484 'City of Bayport', which they sold off some years ago. Given the wide variety of CF7 users, though (both real and for modellers, imaginary), I'd expect an Undecorated model to be a good seller.