Sunset 3rd Rail GP9/GP7

Sunset 3rd Rail locos are beautiful and a pleasure to work on. They run so smooth. I just finished converting two E-9 units to battery control using RailPro and RailPro sound using the installed four speakers.  

 Don

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

catnap posted:

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models, not to mention MTH and Lionel, in my opinion, Sunset/3rd Rail would be hard pressed to receive sufficient order/reservations for these.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

I would go for an accurate GP38-2.  They could run the table with the same chassis -GP38,39,40,38-2,39-2,40-2 and get some economies there.  Then again, seeing the lethargic response for the SD40-2, I don't hold out much hope.

I would ….. if they were produced in my railroad. A dynamic brake option available for each road name would be desirable for me, too …. even if like the way that Athearn does it in HO.

If 3rd Rail sees no profit in producing early ALCO road switchers, I don't see them doing GP7/9's. But, what do I know?

PRRJim, about the "2-motor jerky drives" …. I have a friend with a Atlas GP7. It runs smoothly at something less than 1 scale mph ….   .9 maybe. That's with the QSI board that Atlas was previously using. With Atlas now using the very cool ESU boards, performance certainly won't suffer. 

The MTH Premier and Atlas O GP7/GP9 models have been perfectly satisfactory for me.

MELGAR

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

The Atlas GP7. was eventually followed with a GP9.    Un-decorated model.  With the electronics at the time, EOB and the two can motor system, it ran quite well.  Note the solid bar hand rails.  There was also a straight hood piece that could be used to replace the  dynamic brake blister. 

A nice project several years ago.   

Well, if the market is saturated with Atlas GP7/8, how come I seldom see more than one or two at a train if that?    And the ones I see are usually for western roads I have no interest in.   

I have a pair of Atlas Erie-builts that usually run pretty smoothly, I do admit.   

But the Atlas are still generic, no PRR antennas etc.    And if the trucks are like the dummy C425s I bought and converted WEaver Drives, they are too wide and sit too high.    a 1/16 of an inch or so off and major dimensions is no big deal, but some of the mfg GP9s are 1/4 inch or more too high on the trucks to clear their gearings.

My experience with two motor dries is limited to MTH PAs, AS616, GP30s, Weaver RS11, Weaver U25 (sold), and the above mentioned Erie-builts.    As mentioned the erie-builts are OK, and I got them used at a very good price or I would not have tried them.    All the others are OK but they just are not as smooth as single motor drives.    Also the speed is way too high, I have had to wire them all in series to get them to not behave like slot cars.    So my personal disappointing experience with two motor drives leads me to avoid them.   

What we need are some GP18/20s!

Rule292 posted:

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

Great running, accuracy & electronics are important to most 2-railers, I'm sure. But unfortunately when the price of the "new improved product" runs into 4 figures, it's just quite simply beyond the budget of many of us. I for one would love to see a really decent 2-rail GP38-2, & a CF7, but I'd also want to be able to actually afford them as well, which rules Sunset out for me. If that somehow makes me less of a "discerning" modeller in other's eyes, well tough - it's only a hobby anyway.

Sunset 3rd Raill GGD diesels are not into the 4 digits.    When done in the typical size runs, they are between 650 and 700 - significantly under 4 digits.

For the example the current Atlas O F2/F3 is MSRP 519.95 and the currently announced Sunset F3 is 669.95 which is a difference of $150.     150 is significant, of course but to get features we want, it may be worth it to some.

No denying Sunset makes a superior model, even to Atlas, but the cost difference isn't worth it to me. With Sunset you'll have to pay that full price, with Atlas about decent dealer will give you a sizable discount. Im not trying to bash Scott's models, but when it came to the F3s, I needed two powered units so I couldn't justify paying almost $400 more for the pair. That's almost the price of another locomotive. My two cents. 

One would hope the fidelity and drivetrain of a Sunset rendition could potentially be as successful for them as the GP's were for EMD.  Include a GP9b in the roads that used them for added product variety.

I believe Sunset has had previous experience with the models.  I have a couple of their brass GP9 kits that are missing detail parts.

Bruce

Scott needs to do SW and NW switchers, GP 7/9s, GP20s, GP30s, GP40-2s, and GP15s. In my humble opinion he needs to do smaller engines for a while. I've been waiting for Atlas to bring the Erie Lack Geeps out for what 4 or 5 years now? I wish Scott would use ESU decoders like Atlas, but that can be fixed. He has made steady progress model after model to improve his diesels. Take my beloved GP30. Yes, it has been done by Lionel and MTH in 3 rail with floating pilots. The only version with fixed pilots was the Overland brass model and maybe one other older brass model. I had two of those and they weren't particularly good runners AND the interiors weren't as detailed as what Scott is doing in plastic. If Scott did a GP30 it would instantly become the best O scale GP30 ever made. I think he could do the same for the GP7/9. With the small amount that he needs to get a production run going why not dangle the idea and see how many people bite? 

I’d go for a couple Q GP7s

It seems that the large, 6 axle passenger diesels are overdone but yet Sunset sells the devil out of them. I should also mention F units.  It was my understanding that Atlas was making the uncommon models like the SD40. I thought it strange that Atlas brought out the Calif Zephyr cars but no locos to pull them. Sunset brought out the E Units. I admit I like Atlas locos but I have a couple Weaver GP38s and an RS3 that run well and are 1/2 the price of other brands when you can find them. How about SD7-9 in TrainMan, SD24, RS2,3, so many locos and so little time for a 2 railer.

Dick

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

For the PRR, I would love to see Sunset do the " Torpedo tube"  Gp7

Rule292 posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

It’s not just the Central’s that I believe would appeal to mass production. Differences in shrouded fans, and details like the bulged sides, seldom-modeled vertical grab irons and famous paint schemes like the NYC, ATSF, SP, NYSW and so many other short lines make this a popular locomotive. A loco like this is begging for single motor drive, because of the low hood constraints. 

thanks,

Mario

Sunset/3rd Rail has the SD9 tooling. A logical follow-on to that model would be an accurate SD24/SD24B/SD26//SD18. The superstructure of the SD9 is very similar and the wheelbases and length are the same -- just a matter of changing the cabs and exhaust (except for the SD18), relocating the air tanks and changing to a turbocharged prime mover (again, except for the SD18).

CentralFan1976 posted:

Rule292 posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

What we need are some GP18/20s!

 

The Central’s GP20s are some of, if not the the most beautifully proportioned of the EMD hood units.

I’m sure Scott would make darn near any locomotive we wanted. It just has to reserve and sell

Thus the conundrum of our hobby.  It doesn’t matter how popular GP7/9s or -38-2s were or SD40-2s were on the prototypes, at the end of the day the hobby is about big and fun and neat and what sells is Big Boys, Challengers, H8s, GG1s, Daylights and E/F units. 

No love for a Sunset SD40-2, which is arguably one of the most important locomotives of the past 40 years, yet a Kraus-Maffei is on the drawing board.

Not a bad thing, just human nature. 

It’s not just the Central’s that I believe would appeal to mass production. Differences in shrouded fans, and details like the bulged sides, seldom-modeled vertical grab irons and famous paint schemes like the NYC, ATSF, SP, NYSW and so many other short lines make this a popular locomotive. A loco like this is begging for single motor drive, because of the low hood constraints. 

thanks,

Mario

I agree.  There are many variants that could be done of these classic locomotives.    Many of the big name roads seem to have dabbled in them also which would make them appealing.    Tough sell for this Pennsy guy though I love the NYC geep you have there.   "Sporty looking" is a good description though.  

And as always, the demos were typical classy EMD paint.

I would be in for at least two PRR GP7's for freight service.  Have been holding out for Sunset/3rd Rail to do them. 

Dick, you are mistaken that Atlas did not make CZ locomotives. F3’s in CB&Q, WP, and D&RG were offered; these were the locos originally intended for the CZ. 

+1 for the suggestion of a 3rd Rail GP20. I’d take two GN units, with high short hoods and set up to run long hood forward. 

I'd have a hard time resisting a decent GP-7, either a Rio Grande version or a Katy version done in the as-delivered red paint scheme or even a Rock Island red-and-black version (I'm not so keen on the Mo Pac). 

Jim, I agree Sunset's ability to produce road-specific detail on models is a deciding factor for me as well. I'd be interested in a Pennsy Geep, as long as the Brunswick looks like the E7 Scott did, and not the paler green on the SD unit.

And... Sunset is halfway there with body parts common to the SD unit. CAD design already being done.

I've had very good luck taming the 2 motor drives. All Weaver models need is the crescent shaped motor retainers that came on some units (but not others). Like on my highly detailed RS11 twins. Couple that with series wiring and a good decoder. I run that all day during an open house, with very realistic running characteristics.

This is now so easy - all you have to do is get Scott some minimum number of reservations.  Apparently you do not even have to give him a deposit.  That, to me, is remarkable!

But best of all, it simply cures all of the pent-up desire expressed above.  You can either get the reservations from your like-minded buddies, or as one of our posters did recently, you can reserve them all yourself, re-sell them , and maybe make a profit.

I have GP-7s (or9s?) from two different sources: one is Kemtron, the other is a very nicely done bronze cast model.  I like the GPs, but prefer the SD-7/9.

I'd be in for at least 2 PRR GP9s for general freight service.   PRR had about 300 I think.    I would probably be tempted by more if they did the late version with single large radiator fan instead of the two small ones.   I'd go for the 2 small ones first however, no question.

Then I'd be in for a GP7 with the "torpedo" air tanks on the roof for a local passenger train.  

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

prrjim posted:

Sunset 3rd Raill GGD diesels are not into the 4 digits.    When done in the typical size runs, they are between 650 and 700 - significantly under 4 digits.

For the example the current Atlas O F2/F3 is MSRP 519.95 and the currently announced Sunset F3 is 669.95 which is a difference of $150.     150 is significant, of course but to get features we want, it may be worth it to some.

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

SundayShunter posted:

Rule292 posted:

Sadly the demand for road specific accurate power in 2 rail O scale with Sunsets great running, accuracy and electronics seems not to matter to many. 

Doesnt matter how crappy it was or how archaic it was, if it’s been done before it won’t sell if someone offers an improved product.

It seems 3 railers are more demanding than 2 railers when it comes to those things. 

JMHO...

Great running, accuracy & electronics are important to most 2-railers, I'm sure. But unfortunately when the price of the "new improved product" runs into 4 figures, it's just quite simply beyond the budget of many of us. I for one would love to see a really decent 2-rail GP38-2, & a CF7, but I'd also want to be able to actually afford them as well, which rules Sunset out for me. If that somehow makes me less of a "discerning" modeller in other's eyes, well tough - it's only a hobby anyway.

What would be the railroad schemes for the 2-Rail GP38-2 and the CF7? 

For the GP38-2, the best you can get is a Scale-Wheels MTH version, if they are available.

Andrew

SundayShunter posted:

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

Is it any better if a store orders them from a distributor or manufacturer like their other inventory?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

For the PRR, I would love to see Sunset do the " Torpedo tube"  Gp7

Thanks for pointing this out.   As a newbie on all things PRR , ( just a hint of foam ) I wasn't aware they equipped a few GP7's this way.  This knowledge will take the building of one Sunset kit in a whole new direction for me.  Looks like the boiler stack detail is kind of unique?

Bruce

There seems to be a lot more variation in the GP7s by most RRs than the GP9s.     But there is some variety in both.     I think the PRR also had GP7s with and without Dynamic brakes.

Looking back over figures given in Pennsy Power II, seems as if there may have potentially been 8 GP7's so equipped.  Eight were equipped with steam boilers so moving reservoirs up top to accommodate a larger fuel tank was certainly possible.

Bruce

Looking back over figures given in Pennsy Power II, seems as if there may have potentially been 8 GP7's  torpedo equipped.  Eight were equipped with steam boilers so moving reservoirs up top to accommodate a larger fuel tank was certainly possible.

Bruce

GP 7/9’s in scale have been made by Atlas Lionel and MTH.How about a scale ALCO RS 3.Weaver is gone now and whoever has their dies isn’t doing anything with them so let’s have some Alco RS3,s

MR-150 posted:

GP 7/9’s in scale have been made by Atlas Lionel and MTH.How about a scale ALCO RS 3.Weaver is gone now and whoever has their dies isn’t doing anything with them so let’s have some Alco RS3,s

I seem to recall that Atlas has done at least one run of two-Rail RS-3s and could probably do more.

I know Atlas made a RS3 but I would like it to be of true scale dimensions and have fixed pilots 

BobbyD posted:

SundayShunter posted:

They would reach 4 figure $$$ by the time I got one to the UK. Even importing Atlas is beyond my reach at 'new' prices, thanks to 20% "Value Added Tax" that HM Customs charges - on the whole cost including Shipping - not just the Item Value, the said Shipping costs which have utterly skyrocketed in recent years, & lastly a charge from Royal Mail for the priveledge of them handling your imported goods.

Such costs are killing the modelling of US outline in the UK, in any scale. I've relied mostly on the second-hand market for almost all of my locos & rolling stock, as US O Scale is a small niche within a small niche of the Model Railway scene, although it has to be said that British R-T-R O Scale is having something of a boom time at the moment and rising in popularity as models improve and costs fall. 

Is it any better if a store orders them from a distributor or manufacturer like their other inventory?

Unfortunately not; the charges still have to be paid, & ultimately that is by the end user, as an importing dealer will pass the costs on. 

As for liveries; my choice for the GP38-2 should be guessed from my signature; Soo Line white/red please with some variations possible such as their first 10 which had red 'SOO' & numbers on them; the later Soo Line Candy Apple red scheme, & even the ex-MILW 'Bandit' patch job would be something!!

As for the CF7, liveries would have to include Santa Fe & Amtrak I expect, plus LAJ, but the Corporate Genesee & Wyoming colours would look good, maybe with a range of decals to suit various roads that have them. From a purely selfish viewpoint I'd like one done as the Minnesota Transfer's #484 'City of Bayport', which they sold off some years ago. Given the wide variety of CF7 users, though (both real and for modellers, imaginary), I'd expect an Undecorated model to be a good seller. 

Lionel has never done a 2 rail engine, so even it close to scale, it is of little use.    MTH has, but the flaws mentioned above make it a poor choice for me personally.    The red Caboose loco has a nice superstructure, but the mech is lightweight.    Atlas got the dies from Red Caboose/Intermountain and have used them, but they use the infamous china block drives. 

those two motor drives are good pullers and run well around loops but any I have had are not nearly as good as single motors for an oprating layout that requires switching and slow speeds.

By the way I think possibly MTH and maybe Lionel has done a 3 rail RS3.    As for the atlas one, I don't know if it close to scale dimensions or not.   A friend of mine had a pair of them.    To both of us they looked funny.    They looked too tall and so appeared too short.    The shell may be right, but they sat too high on the trucks and just did not look right when compared to photos where they appear long and lean.

I guess this sounds like rivet counting, but I don't feel it is.    If the model does not "look" right to me from 3 feet away or so on the layout, I don't like it.   I do have MTH 2 rail GP30s from years ago in the 90s when MTH did some 2 rail stuff.    From "2 feet away" they looked as good, or just like the brass one I had.    As a result I sold the brass one.

prrjim posted:

 

...

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

It's 500 models at the current price point.  The K-M is $1200 for 150 units.   ANY diesel can be done  @$1200 for 150 right now.  GP7/9s, SD40-2s, FP45s, SDP40Fs,  whatever.  Doesn't matter what it is made out of.

Jim I generally agree with you.

One approach would be to buy a 3rd Rail F-unit and harvest the drive for use in an Atlas GP.  Sell the remaining parts at auction for whatever you can get.  Another option would be to repower the Atlas GP with one of the aftermarket drives available for O-scale diesels.  Heck, now that Atlas itself makes an MP-15 with properly spaced Blombergs, you could even steal the drive from one of those.  All of these approaches are costly, but one way of getting what you want right now.  My $.02.

Atlas recently offered the RS3 in their TrainMan line.  In comparison to the old Weaver version, the Atlas shell is taller and wider to accommodate the China drive. Otherwise, the overall height ( at th cab ) and length are th same with no noticeable difference in gap between body and truck.  The ERR electronics do their usual great job of making switching realistic.  Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.  

Bruce

brwebster posted:

...Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.....

Bruce

Not true.  The Trainman line models are offered in both 2-rail and 3-rail.  However, the other comments about hood height and width are true.  I've often heard that the Weavers are fairly accurate renditions.

big train posted:

brwebster posted:

...Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.....

Bruce

Not true.  The Trainman line models are offered in both 2-rail and 3-rail.  However, the other comments about hood height and width are true.  I've often heard that the Weavers are fairly accurate renditions.

The original Weavers, with the handrails mounted on top of the walkway, are the only accurate RS3s other than those that were made in brass many years ago. 

I have an Atlas Trainman RS3 in 2-rail, but it betrays the 3-rail origins of the Trainman design with big spacers between the pilots & frame, & handrails that finish short at the steps at each corner, & pressed stanchions that go down the frame side. The hood is too tall which is more obvious when you look at the centre windows on the cab.

But I got mine at a bargain price on ebay.co.uk, & I liked the fact that all the grab irons are metal, rather than molded on like the Weaver model.

With an ESU Loksound L decoder it manages a decent crawl, not quite as good as a single-motor setup can get admitedly, but it sounds great - splutters just like a real Alco.

On the subject of CF7s, here's one I did earlier....

Unfortunately, it's an HO Scale Athearn model I repainted myself, & I no longer model in HO.

I would order a GP9 lettered for the Pennsy if 3rd rail would offer one.

Norm

Hot Water posted:

 

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models

 

 

BS!
When they came out, I saw exactly one Atlas N&W GP9. My dealer didn't put my order in for some reason and then I couldn't find any! Not even from Atlas. One GP9 doesn't not a proper consist make. I think that I have seen one since on ebay. Sooooo, saturated they are not!
I have requested that Atlas rerun the N&W units, including the "Redbirds", but, as usual, talking to them has been like talking to a box of rocks.

BTW,
The recent run of Athearn N&W GP9 Redbirds & Bluebirds seem to have sold quite well with many modelers having a hard time finding them.

"Scott needs to do SW and NW switchers"
You've got to be kidding me! Talked about saturated! A dime a dozen.
What we need is something with character...an ALCO T6!
Maybe Scott could do that

Can't really beat the Atlas version at half the price....

I would think that the GP 7,9,18 and 20 as one run would get sufficient reservations, it appears that beyond first generation diesels there is not enough market interest for more modern diesels [case in point SD-40-2s] at Sunsets price point bearing in mind that the "street price" from MTH,Lionel and Atlas averages 450+/- for most diesels and most buyers want at least a pair. Scott is dependent on both 3 and 2 rail orders to make his numbers. JMO

Hot Water posted:

catnap posted:

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models, not to mention MTH and Lionel, in my opinion, Sunset/3rd Rail would be hard pressed to receive sufficient order/reservations for these.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

 

"Fairly well saturated"? Sorry, but that is not the case. There haven't been that many two-rail Atlas GP-7s or GP-9s to be had in western and southwestern paint schemes to begin with, and what there were have been gone from dealers' shelves for a long, long time. Certain roads, like the Katy and the Frisco, have been ignored entirely.

And while Lionel's Legacy GP-9s are acceptable-looking, they're not only hard to find, but they're in three-rail only to boot.

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

By the way, Mr. Sick, that is a really nice looking model and some truly spectacular scenery!

bob2 posted:

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

Pray tell, how to the other guys do it?

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

bob2 posted:

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

Pray tell, how to the other guys do it?

Simon

Apparently MTH does the same thing, i.e. an item in the catalog that does not get sufficient orders, is dropped and does NOT go into production. Lionel now refers to such a process as "BTO" = Build To Orders.

Hot Water posted:

Apparently MTH does the same thing, i.e. an item in the catalog that does not get sufficient orders, is dropped and does NOT go into production. Lionel now refers to such a process as "BTO" = Build To Orders.

Which pretty much from what I see is the way everyone else (in 2 rail) does it.

Simon

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

Hmm,I would expect that if Scott would announce and get enough reservations for the GP it would be a race horse to see who would deliver first,Atlas or 3rd Rail---I would not bet against 3rd Rail.

Norm

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

I received an email from MTH.  The GP-9 is in stock but only in 3 rail.  The door is open for Sunset to do the 2-rail version.

Ed

Guys, keep in mind That smaller locos do not mean significantly lower prices.    The cost of tooling big modern diesel is not much more than tooling an SW1.    the labor to assemble is pretty close too.    There is a little less material cost but that is the smallest part of the project.    Scott gave a nice review of this situation when talking about brass steamers back a few years.   I am trying to remember paraphrase the information he provided.

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

Jim,

Could you confirm when you received the update about the Atlas-O MP15DC arrival date? When I called their customer service number, 2 weeks ago, the person I spoke to, was still confident on the ship date of 3^rd quarter 2018, listed on their website. I reminded her that we were in the 3^rd quarter of 2018 & she still seemed to believe that they would be shipped or available later, around September.

These are just my opinion,

Naveen

naveenrajan posted:

EBT Jim posted:

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

Jim,

Could you confirm when you received the update about the Atlas-O MP15DC arrival date? When I called their customer service number, 2 weeks ago, the person I spoke to, was still confident on the ship date of 3^rd quarter 2018, listed on their website. I reminded her that we were in the 3^rd quarter of 2018 & she still seemed to believe that they would be shipped or available later, around September.

These are just my opinion,

Naveen

Naveen …. I sure don't know when they will actually ship. I'm eagerly awaiting their SW switchers.

This past March, a forum member here posted an apparent Atlas office memo …..

I hope what the woman told you is actually correct.

Jim

Judging from the posts here, it looks like there's a lot of pent-up demand for Sunset GP-9s.

I hadn't thought about getting a GP-7 until recently. Did Atlas do any passenger-version GP-7s, or were they all freight versions?

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

Jay C posted:

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

For me, the availability of the drop-in P:48 wheelsets ALONG WITH the superior running characteristics of Sunset models seals the deal for me.   This fact alone makes me want to shift my modeling era slightly to include more diesels.   Sunset diesels.

The GP7 is a tad late for me but I am sure I'd do at least one in PRR.  

And of course I'd love some Sunset FAs or early (Phase 1) F units.  Would they reserve sufficiently? No way to know that.

How funny to find this topic when I was literally thinking of dropping Scott a line about this!

its all very well saying 'Atlas' already make them....but try finding one, especially over here in the U.K. and when Atlas do produce them, they are often in more obscure road names.

I'd love to see Sunset do some GP7s and 9s, given their products continue to improve every time. 

It would also be an ideal loco to get younger blood into the hobby. There's nothing more frustrating than deciding to go for 'O' and then have trouble finding locos. 

Loving the site and the conversations and banter.

Happy modelling, everyone, from across the pond!

Steve Adby posted:

How funny to find this topic when I was literally thinking of dropping Scott a line about this!

its all very well saying 'Atlas' already make them....but try finding one, especially over here in the U.K. and when Atlas do produce them, they are often in more obscure road names.

I'd love to see Sunset do some GP7s and 9s, given their products continue to improve every time. 

It would also be an ideal loco to get younger blood into the hobby. There's nothing more frustrating than deciding to go for 'O' and then have trouble finding locos. 

Loving the site and the conversations and banter.

Happy modelling, everyone, from across the pond!

And THAT is precisely why I’d like to see Scott do a run of ALCo RS3’s...in addition to the GP7’s & 9’s being discussed in this thread.  Sunset just seems to do things right...and I don’t even own any of their engines...YET!

Yes, there have been a lot of RS3’s offered by multiple manufacturers/importers over the years, but there has yet to be one that is true scale size (and shape!) with the high level of detail that I just KNOW Scott would offer in his version!  A very common prototype locomotive that to this day has never been done accurately by any of the mainstream 3-rail manufacturers/importers!

Rule292 posted:

The GP7 is a tad late for me but I am sure I'd do at least one in PRR.  

And of course I'd love some Sunset FAs or early (Phase 1) F units.  Would they reserve sufficiently? No way to know that.

If you are talking PRR, The earliest F3's the PRR owned were phase II, road numbers 9500 to 9505, ordered as 3 sets of ABBA's. The only PRR F's with High Fans.

Simon

Jay C posted:

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

Would anyone be interested in the SP's T&NO freight service variant, the ones delivered without SP's characteristic warning lights?

Bear in mind before Sunset can actually post a model for reservations [ the only real way to get a realistic number on potential reservations ]  with pricing they have to do considerable planning and cost estimating. just saying !

HIBAR, why is that? It can be just as simple as saying “we wanna go this loco, reserve em and we will see if it’s a go”  planning and cost estimates should all be roughly the same for diesel production runs adjusted for tariffs and inflation

I agree with Matt.  Two pages of this, and am I correct in assuming that Scott has less than 20 firm commitments?  Make it 200, and get his attention!

Re: the earlier comment about how Lionel and MTH approach production in the same way - I note that Lionel, after overwhelming demand, is doing the N&W K2 streamlined Mountain.  I too like that Mountain, but I had assumed Scott's fine model had sated the demand.  What do I know?

Clearly there is no overwhelming demand for either GP 40s to replace the lightly reserved SD 40-2s which are still listed for reservations or a GP 7/9 series or Alco RS 3 series, the only truly firm reservations come with a CC or Ck something that Scott does not require. I believe the 2 rail market is more inclined to buy Scotts models for the drive and prototype detailing, he is however dependent on 3 railers to buy in to these projects to make them happen and they are accustomed to the more competitive pricing of the MTH, Lionel, Atlas diesels, not to mention the enormous selection they have had available for years. JMO

“No overwhelming demand” for GP-7s/GP-9s? I must have missed something. It seemed to me that a fair number of people on this thread sounded enthusiastic. I didn’t see a sparsely-autographed reservation list for them (Although few people seem excited about SDL-39s, CF-7s, and G-8s). Did someone talk to Sunset about GP-7s/GP-9s after this thread started? 

I could be very enthusiastic about a GP7 in ACL or SAL in 2 rail. Also a GP20 in Santa Fe.

rdunniii posted:

prrjim posted:

 

...

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

It's 500 models at the current price point.  The K-M is $1200 for 150 units.   ANY diesel can be done  @$1200 for 150 right now.  GP7/9s, SD40-2s, FP45s, SDP40Fs,  whatever.  Doesn't matter what it is made out of.

It appears the K-M model is plastic.

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

IDK since a recent thread and on Atlas O's website states that Atlas O lost their Factory in China for Locos and Rolling stock.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...70#80551019477943170

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

IDK since a recent thread and on Atlas O's website states that Atlas O lost their Factory in China for Locos and Rolling stock.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...70#80551019477943170

This is not good news for Atlas buyers considering how far behind they were in motive power deliveries already, obviously rolling stock delivery will suffer also and any potentially new product development will be even further in the future. JMO

I think we just had a good argument put forth as to why Sunset/Third Rail ought to consider putting out GP-7 and GP-9 models with the factory closure. I was one of the people caught up in the last one and had to wait several years for my Atlas F-3s.

If push comes to shove I could do some MP GP's.  I missed the Atlas ones, as I hadn't switched to O yet.  I don't even intend to model MP, I just like the as-delivered paint scheme.

My preference is still for accurate GP38-2's thought.

P.S On the waiting list for two SD40-2's.

Purplepapa posted:

I could be very enthusiastic about a GP7 in ACL or SAL in 2 rail. Also a GP20 in Santa Fe.

SAL and Southern too, please! 

.

I'm done ….

….. concerning  GP7's or RS-3/RSD5's or even-end cab switchers from 3rd Rail. Its not in the stars, and that's cool. I'm not part of their targeted niche. 

I'm glad that they do make very nicely/correctly detailed model train stuff for their enthusiasts. The bigger our hobby, the better. 

EBT Jim posted:

.

I'm done ….

 

….. concerning  GP7's or RS-3/RSD5's or even-end cab switchers from 3rd Rail. Its not in the stars, and that's cool. I'm not part of their targeted niche. 

I'm glad that they do make very nicely/correctly detailed model train stuff for their enthusiasts. The bigger our hobby, the better. 

Patience is a virtue... For 2 rail O scalers. 

catnap posted:

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

brwebster posted:

Looking back over figures given in Pennsy Power II, seems as if there may have potentially been 8 GP7's so equipped.  Eight were equipped with steam boilers so moving reservoirs up top to accommodate a larger fuel tank was certainly possible.

Bruce

Unfortunately. Only three GP7's had rooftop torpedo tubes, DuaL Cab Controls,  and cab signaling boxes underneath #8551-8553.

From the Paul Withers book "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial" Vol#8.

The Devil is in the details!

Here are some 3 rail photos of PRR Atlas GP7's compared to Lionel GP7:

Atlas O definitely got the handrails right! However the Lionel GP7 with the Legacy electronics is only off by the Handrail detail.

I wish I could have said the same with the Lionel Legacy GP9 but they FUBARed it up with the details. With the Legacy electronic"crew talk" you can't really fix the numerous issues.

If the Atlas GP7s and GP9s had single motor drives, they would be **** near perfect.  Unfortunately, they use the two motor drive. Sunset's single motor drive will be superior every time.  Thankfully, Atlas did their GP7s in Lackawanna.  I doubt Scott would get enough reservations for the Lackawanna paint scheme.

Opinion.

I use two motor drives in my larger Diesel models.  Other than double the current, which doesn't seem to affect my electric bills,  the only effect I see is increased pulling power.  I suppose it is different if you use DCC, but my motors do not fight each other.  Same with steamers - I often have three locomotives tied together.

ecd15 posted:

If the Atlas GP7s and GP9s had single motor drives, they would be **** near perfect.  Unfortunately, they use the two motor drive. Sunset's single motor drive will be superior every time.  Thankfully, Atlas did their GP7s in Lackawanna. …...

Opinion.

My friend has an Atlas Reading GP7 with the original QSI system, and we have it running smoothly at something less than 1 smph.

Not yours?

Jim

Atlas O definitely got the handrails right

it appears Atlas modeled the cast steel stanchions, while Lionel modeled the pressed steel ones. EMD changed the stanchion style during manufacture.

PRR Man posted:

Atlas O definitely got the handrails right

it appears Atlas modeled the cast steel stanchions, while Lionel modeled the pressed steel ones. EMD changed the stanchion style during manufacture.

True but, the vertical handrail stanchions (solid bar stock on GP7) were changed to the "U channel" pressed steel (GP9 type), very late in the GP7 production. Thus, careful research of new builder photos of GP7 units would be in order to model the correct "U channel" vertical handrail stanchions.

I would love to see 3rd Rail do something new and different like a Baldwin AS-16 or Baby Face. I know several roads used the former but sadly only three or four used the latter but it would still be exciting to see. 

The F units and Geeps are some of my favorite locos as they are a great representation of first generation diesel power but I agree they are way overdone.  All Nation, Overland, P & D Hobby, Kemtron, Hallmark, Atlas, Red Caboose, MTH, Sunset....

The golden goose can lay only so many eggs. 

I could go for a S&A AS616 or any other Baldwin road switcher for that matter.  I just love the look  of them.

prrjim posted:

I'd be in for at least 2 PRR GP9s for general freight service.   PRR had about 300 I think.    I would probably be tempted by more if they did the late version with single large radiator fan instead of the two small ones.   I'd go for the 2 small ones first however, no question.

Then I'd be in for a GP7 with the "torpedo" air tanks on the roof for a local passenger train.  

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

310, but who's counting?

I would like a GP7/9 in the red paint scheme of the CNJ

Hot Water posted:

PRR Man posted:

Atlas O definitely got the handrails right

it appears Atlas modeled the cast steel stanchions, while Lionel modeled the pressed steel ones. EMD changed the stanchion style during manufacture.

True but, the vertical handrail stanchions (solid bar stock on GP7) were changed to the "U channel" pressed steel (GP9 type), very late in the GP7 production. Thus, careful research of new builder photos of GP7 units would be in order to model the correct "U channel" vertical handrail stanchions.

 

Atlas GP7 has the solid bar handrail stanchions. 

You could always go vintage

aterry11 posted:

You could always go vintage

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