Foregone conclusion... Tired of arguing with people in S about this topic. Not enough people wiling to spend the money. Shame.

@jonnyspeed posted:

Foregone conclusion... Tired of arguing with people in S about this topic. Not enough people wiling to spend the money. Shame.

Jonathan, was this a scale only offering?  Meaning they shut out the largest part of the market...

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

It's time to contact and support American Models!  Make your requests known now regarding new roadnames.

Yes, and AM does listen.  They were asked about the sold out heavyweights for NH and NYC.  As a result, Ron is going to rerun both sets... Hi-rail and scale.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

They were offered in prototypical full length as well as shorty versions.  You could get them with scale or hi-rail wheels and in roadnames that spanned the country.  Quite a set of choices; not to mention the exquisite detail surpassing American Models' offering (and a higher price to go along with it of course).   Plus they left the ordering period open for at least 3 years to get enough to justify the investment.  So much for bringing a high quality manufacturer into S.

@Chuck K posted:

They were offered in prototypical full length as well as shorty versions.  You could get them with scale or hi-rail wheels and in roadnames that spanned the country.  Quite a set of choices; not to mention the exquisite detail surpassing American Models' offering (and a higher price to go along with it of course).   Plus they left the ordering period open for at least 3 years to get enough to justify the investment.  So much for bringing a high quality manufacturer into S.

Thanks Chuck,

That is quite a range of choices.  I only have a vague memory of looking when they were first offered and didn’t remember Hi-rail or shortened versions.  It was probably the price that sent me away, were they going to be brass?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

It's time to contact and support American Models!  Make your requests known now regarding new roadnames.

Item: The Colorado Eagle cars are really fine looking models, however, Missouri Pacific Lines and/or Texas & Pacific would be welcomed.

Northern Pacific North Coast Limited Budd cars with the EMD FP7 DeLuxe model, and even a blast from the past with, the Alco PA/PB/PA set of units a la American Flyer.

Don't forget: The GDD cars were going to be prototype specific, not just repaints of available models.

I already have 6 sets of AM Budd cars, and my Santa Fe El Capitan, Burlington "No Name" Zephyr, UP Portland Rose, MKT/Frisco Texas Special, ACL Champion and NH Merchants Limited all look suspiciously like the NYC Empire State Express in different clothing.

The AM Budd's are good cars and I'm glad they were made available, but it would have been nice to have a scale length, correct Super Chief.

Rusty

@Tom Stoltz posted:

It was probably the price that sent me away, were they going to be brass?

Aluminum

Regrettably, Scott does not understand the S market and its size relative to the one for 0 scale. I talked with him (a very nice guy) twice in Orange Hall at York. He would not respond to my suggestion to offer 4-car sets with two add-ons. Doing so would have lowered the entry fee and might have resulted in more preorders. I also wonder if enough members of the S community own the 'correct' or 'close enough' locomotives to go with the sets. Some of the requisite  locomotives have been manufactured at some point in comparatively limited numbers (AM, SHS, MTH, etc.) and are not necessarily readily available to purchase once the cars would show up. An important factor that helps preorders for 0 scale Golden Gate Depot is that Scott often makes the correct locomotives to go with the passenger car sets.

I do own four Sunset/Third-Rail Brass pieces in 0. They are great pieces. Love 'em.  However, please notice that the 0-42 18" "short" passenger cars for 0 gauge were canceled, too. There are limits to what many will pay for toy choo-choos.

Respectfully,

Bob

The offer to produce some of the finest passenger cars in S scale was ambitious and courageous but thwarted by a number of factors.

• Too many choices for a limited market meant that those willing to spend $300/car would spread their selections over three railroads (Pennsylvania in two paint schemes, New York Central, and Santa Fe) with six specific cars and two body styles for each one--prototypically full length or shortened for layouts with tight curves. That meant 36 different bodies to choose from if one does not count the two different Pennsy paint schemes. There probably were not enough deposits in a single category to make production economical.
• The cost was high but commensurate with the quality. The AM Budd cars cost one-third the price of the GDD cars. A six-car set would cost $1,800.
• The full-length cars would have had body-mounted couplers, making them suitable only for large, scale layouts with wide curves or for displays. The short versions were to have American Flyer-style couplers. There was no plan to have Talgo-style scale couplers for high-rail users who want to be as prototypical as possible but face compromises because of limited layout sizes. That may have further reduced a very small market.
• Suitable locomotives were not readily available. Those who have AM E8s or GG-1s or suitable brass power already may likely have had passenger cars, but potential customers without proper locomotives would have had to search for them.

I applaud Scott Mann's reach out to the S scale community and hope he is not disillusioned by this cancellation. Maybe a single locomotive body type with few railroad-specific modifications but lots of different paint schemes would be a more cautious and economically safer second attempt. The SD40 immediately jumps to mind.

Terry

I agree the price probably scared away quite a few but I think the long lead time and only three RR's

offered turned off others. I am very happy with the AM budd cars and would order another set of NH cars if Ron reran them in a heart beat.

Gunny

I am sorry to hear that but not surprised. I had a set of full length NYC's on preorder.

@TOKELLY posted:

The offer to produce some of the finest passenger cars in S scale was ambitious and courageous but thwarted by a number of factors.

• Too many choices for a limited market meant that those willing to spend $300/car would

$300/car???  I find spending $300 for a 5 car set a bit of a stretch.  But I did order the 5 car NYC heavyweight set from AM.

$300... that's a lot of money for a toy that just goes round in circles.  OTOH, if you did place an order expecting to pay that much, why not hire a model builder to convert something already existing?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

My recollection was $200 per because I thought I committed $1200 for a 6 car set, but I could be wrong.

The full scale 80' cars were a bit over $300 ea as I recall

I have looked and have not found a modeler who builds custom S scale cars as a business. Were there such a business I would commission some 80' Budd cars with operating vestibules and a set of RDC cars. Just finding a painter who will custom paint one of my Berkshires has proven to be elusive.

@Chuck K posted:

My recollection was $200 per because I thought I committed $1200 for a 6 car set, but I could be wrong.

Regrettably, the price was $1799.95 for the six car set. Add-ons (sleepers and such) were offered for 299.95 each. The brochure is still findable on the net.

Bob

@AmFlyer posted:

The full scale 80' cars were a bit over $300 ea as I recall

I have looked and have not found a modeler who builds custom S scale cars as a business. Were there such a business I would commission some 80' Budd cars with operating vestibules and a set of RDC cars. Just finding a painter who will custom paint one of my Berkshires has proven to be elusive.

Tom, you might start here:

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/kit_build.cfm   

Model Builders for Hire

There is a list of hundreds -- I was surprised.  Some specialize in trains.

Facebook gets in the act also, Model Builders for Hire Database:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/161249737974699

Google 'model builders for hire'.  14,600,000 results in 0.56 seconds.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

$300/car???  I find spending $300 for a 5 car set a bit of a stretch.  But I did order the 5 car NYC heavyweight set from AM.

$300... that's a lot of money for a toy that just goes round in circles.  OTOH, if you did place an order expecting to pay that much, why not hire a model builder to convert something already existing?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well, those of us that reserved sets, were essentially going to "hire" GDD to build them...

As far as a model builder goes, I believe Malcolm (Brother Love) charges somewhere around $300 for his O Scale cabooses.

You're comparing apples and oranges with AM heavyweights and the proposed GDD cars.

AM heavyweights are plastic, no interiors, paper silhouettes in the windows, incandescent lighting and made from 29 year old tooling.  The GDD cars were going to be made from new tooling, extruded aluminum and with full LED lit interiors.

And while most of the AM 72' cars are of Jersey Central prototype, each GDD set (Santa Fe, Pennsy and NYC) was going to be specific cars to match their individual prototypes.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

You're comparing apples and oranges with AM heavyweights and the proposed GDD cars.

Rusty

Rusty, you’re right, of course… if you are going to keep it on a shelf and stare at it with a magnifying glass.  However, if you’re going to run them on your layout, I’ll bet the difference is much like the difference between Hi-rail and scale wheels – you won’t notice.  Especially if your eyes are over 40.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Rusty, you’re right, of course… if you are going to keep it on a shelf and stare at it with a magnifying glass.  However, if you’re going to run them on your layout, I’ll bet the difference is much like the difference between Hi-rail and scale wheels – you won’t notice.  Especially if your eyes are over 40.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The difference would be the same as comparing a River Raisin Berkshire and a FlyerChief Berkshire:

No magnifying glass needed.

Rusty

It is a disappointing to be sure, but at least Scott tried to go where most wouldn't bother.  The main reason I have avoided S is the very limited options on accurate scale passenger trains.  Otherwise, S is such a nice balance between HO and O.

$300 a car is the same as the O offerings.  This is because there isn't a lot of savings between scales.  Most of the parts are sourced outside of Scott's factory such as couplers, wheels, decals, paints, and brass castings & etchings so he is paying the same prices for those items generally.  Labor, design, and tooling costs are the same.  Not much savings on materials as it comes down to less than a pound of aluminum per car that works out to under a dollar per car.  Biggest costs in aluminum sets come down to labor more than anything else.

My O scale GGD sets are among the best overall quality passenger cars I operate regularly.  However, it is hard enough to get enough reservations in O let alone in S.  Time will tell if he will venture in the S space again.  Scott is seeing decent success back in the HO market and O scale is doing well for the niche he caters too.  Doesn't mean that S is dead for GGD/Sunset, it just means the right product hasn't been offered to fit the market demand.

Any interest in $700 diesels along the lines of the O scale ones?  They are fabulous runners and lookers.  The earlier offerings in O would have the latest upgrades in electronics and chassis design if done in S. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

  Doesn't mean that S is dead for GGD/Sunset, it just means the right product hasn't been offered to fit the market demand.

Any interest in $700 diesels along the lines of the O scale ones?  They are fabulous runners and lookers.  The earlier offerings in O would have the latest upgrades in electronics and chassis design if done in S.

Maybe an S Scale SD40-2???

Rusty

I was thinking more along the lines of the transition era models like the FT's, FP7s, and E-Units.  But SD40-2T's?  Might be a hard sell here.

@Rusty Traque posted:

The difference would be the same as comparing a River Raisin Berkshire and a FlyerChief Berkshire:

No magnifying glass needed.

Rusty

Well, thank you.  Maybe I’m showing my lack of fidelity, but in the overhead view, I assumed the one with the more color was the more actuate model.  And again, in the side view the first thing that caught my eye was the colored builder’s plate.  I had to give them a good going over to finally see the one behind has more easily breakable parts to fall off, so that must be the more expensive one.  The white wall tires said Flyer to me though.  And in your pictures, if they don’t both have scale wheels…

No magnifying glass needed, but I did have to study them to tell the difference.  If they were both running on a layout I would have to ask myself, are the differences worth the difference in price?  Do your visitors notice?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Well, thank you.  Maybe I’m showing my lack of fidelity, but in the overhead view, I assumed the one with the more color was the more actuate model.  And again, in the side view the first thing that caught my eye was the colored builder’s plate.  I had to give them a good going over to finally see the one behind has more easily breakable parts to fall off, so that must be the more expensive one.  The white wall tires said Flyer to me though.  And in your pictures, if they don’t both have scale wheels…

No magnifying glass needed, but I did have to study them to tell the difference.  If they were both running on a layout I would have to ask myself, are the differences worth the difference in price?  Do your visitors notice?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well, the River Raisin Berk isn't mine.  I had custody of it for a short period by the good graces of its owner and it was useful when I did a review of the FlyerChief version.  (The F/C version wasn't mine, either...)  And yes, it was an apples to oranges comparison in the review.

I could see the difference without studying of the models.  The molded on handrails, lack of complete valve gear, the coupler blob on the pilot, etc., of the more colorful F/C model make it not nearly as accurate as the RRM model.  The F/C model generally represents an NKP Berk, it is nothing a scale modeler would seek out.  The Legacy version is much better, but still not up to RRM's level.

The quality of detail and running qualities are what the Scale folks are willing to pay River Raisin for and would have paid GDD for, had the passenger car project been successful.

Way back in 2005, we paid essentially $525.00 a car for a four unit Pioneer Zephyr from River Raisin, so $300.00 a car from GDD today would be almost a bargain in comparison.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

The quality of detail and running qualities are what the Scale folks are willing to pay River Raisin for and would have paid GDD for, had the passenger car project been successful.

Rusty

so then, why weren't they successful if they were such a bargain and that's what scale people want?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but feel GGD missed the market and that's my gripe.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@GG1 4877 posted:

I was thinking more along the lines of the transition era models like the FT's, FP7s, and E-Units.  But SD40-2T's?  Might be a hard sell here.

S is awash with FP7's and E8's from American Models.  The FP7 was AM's introductory model back in 1985.

An SD40-2 (no "T") continually comes up in surveys.  However, to get the Flyer Folks on board it would have to run on 20" (R20) radius.  That would mean a slot in the pilots for coupler swing or swinging pilots.

Rusty

What clued me to the difference is the "air" under the boiler on the River Raisin being the model in the rear.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

so then, why weren't they successful if they were such a bargain and that's what scale people want?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but feel GGD missed the market and that's my gripe.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I would agree with missing the market.

Rusty

No surprise here. There are not a whole lot of us S people out there and we are not getting younger.  I wonder how many are like me. I have more than I need. My want list keeps shrinking. With old age and the health issues that comes with age, trains keep dropping on the priority list. If I am going to spend thousands, lots of other things come to mind.

Twenty five or so years ago Scott might have had a winner.

I agree with Caldwell,If I buy more trains they will be available right now not BTO or Pre order and wait.The Sunset cars were nice but I can get AM Budd cars this week and enjoy them.

If you want to sell me something have it in stock.

Gunny

@Rusty Traque posted:

S is awash with FP7's and E8's from American Models.  The FP7 was AM's introductory model back in 1985.

An SD40-2 (no "T") continually comes up in surveys.  However, to get the Flyer Folks on board it would have to run on 20" (R20) radius.  That would mean a slot in the pilots for coupler swing or swinging pilots.

Rusty

Good info Rusty.  Thanks.

Guys,

Been doing this biz for 25 years now. I know when a project is going to be a success or flop within weeks of announcing it. For whatever reason, if there isn't enough interest then it is obvious right off the bat.

The way we make our cars is unique in the industry. They are basically built up like a brass model, without the brass. Using Aluminum saves some on materials and processing but they are basically a hand made product, not for mass production like plasic. Whether they were S Scale, O Scale or #1 Gauge, the cost of making these cars is the same. There are fixed costs for Design, Tooling and Production, and if you can't get enough $$$ in orders, I can't pay for the processes let alone make some profit to run my business.

After several years of collecting reservations, mass emailing, soft advertising on the internet, the interest wasn't there for $300 S Scale cars. When there is interest in a new product, no matter what the Scale, we hear about it loud and clear right off the bat. Modelers talk to each other on Facebook and on-line forums and the word spreads rapidly.

It was a fun thought, but the orders for O Scale cars keep coming in, while S scale dropped off to a trickle after just a few months. Can't run a business on hopes and dreams, it take real money every month to fund all the business activities. Sso projects have to be planned, designed and set in to motion in order to keep the business afloat. When that stops, so do I. 

I hope someone will step forward to offer you all the models you desire. This formula didn't work. Onward...

Wishing you all the best.

Scott, thanks for taking the time to post the information above. I was one of the people that placed an early preorder for a set of NYC 80' cars. I am disappointed but not surprised that they will not be produced due to insufficient orders.

Tom, I thank you for stepping forward and doing what needed to be done to try to get it off the ground. Hats off to you.

Scott

I commend Scott for putting in the good college try and extending himself to post an explanation. 3rd Rail makes great products and I wish them continued success. However, I offered (twice) to commit to a four car set and was turned down, so I stand by what I wrote in my post above in this thread. Given international recent developments, I confess to being relieved to not have to make an expensive train purchase sourced from the PRC.

Respectfully,

Bob

4 Car sets would have made it impossible to reach the quantity needed based on the number of potential customers in S Scale. I stand by my decision. Scott Mann

... and never the train shall meet. 

Bob

Scott,

Thank you for at least offering to produce some beautiful cars for people who are S gauge/scale modelers. I can appreciate that at least you put it out there for people to order. Sad thing is, there is not enough folks in S scale to make the production viable. I am an S gauge person and I watched the offering you made, wondering if there would be enough interest. I must admit to the fact that I don't have a lot of extra cash for trains, but when you offered those beautiful Hiawatha car sets in O gauge, I had hopes that you might also offer those in S and if in shorties for high rail and Flyer fans you probably would have gotten me.

Thank you though for the beautiful trains you do offer and thanks for taking on the ERR product line.

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

Scott,

I must admit to the fact that I don't have a lot of extra cash for trains,

Thank you though for the beautiful trains you do offer and thanks for taking on the ERR product line.

Ray

I agree Ray. $300/car is so far out of my game I may as well not play.  Costs and the new level of detail are leaving me in the dust.  How do you encourage someone when you can only afford the bleacher seats?

Still, thanks for trying, Scott.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I'm not a S scale collector, but I do feel for those who were looking for highly-detailed scale-length cars to have in their train collections. When it comes to full-length passenger cars, it seems that Scott is one of the top guys to go to, on account of their not being too many properly scaled O scale passenger cars to begin with. I was initially gonna get some of MTH's passengers cars they made for commuter trains, but then I realized that they were actually shorter than what they really should be, and so I eventually decided not to get them. The cancelling of the S scale makes me even more grateful that the Amfleet cars are being produced, because just like everything else Scott makes, there is a chance it may not get produced if it isn't popular enough (but then again this is the case for most, if not all, model/toy trains in general). Trust me, if I had the money and space, I would've easily ordered one of each 5-car sets that were available. Not sure if I am wording this correctly, but I hope I am getting my point across correctly. Again, my sympathies to those who put in an order for S scale passenger cars (and the O42 O scale cars as well).