As popular as the SD40-2 was, I'm surprised Sunset can't obtain enough reservations to produce the model.

What is the explanation for this?

My own theory is that the current Sunset market is geared toward earlier models, so the venture toward selling more modern equipment needs to capture a different segment if the market. And that market might have been tainted when they produced their first diesel in the 1990s..the GE dash 9, which was really bad compared to what they're doing now.

Other manufacturers have produced this model for the 3 rail market, but the same other manufacturers have produced most of the other stuff that Sunset has no problems selling.

Does anybody have any ideas as to how we can assist Sunset with getting enough orders to run the model?

Original Post
Brad Kowal posted:

As popular as the SD40-2 was, I'm surprised Sunset can't obtain enough reservations to produce the model.

What is the explanation for this?

Apparently not enough SCALE modelers, whether 2-Rail or 3-Rail, are all that interested on any models of SD40-2 units, especially with all the variations.

My own theory is that the current Sunset market is geared toward earlier models, so the venture toward selling more modern equipment needs to capture a different segment if the market. And that market might have been tainted when they produced their first diesel in the 1990s..the GE dash 9, which was really bad compared to what they're doing now.

No comparison. That was way back when.

Other manufacturers have produced this model for the 3 rail market, but the same other manufacturers have produced most of the other stuff that Sunset has no problems selling.

Except, those "other manufacturers", i.e. 3-Rail toys, didn't make them accurately, plus they have that "China Drive" system.

Does anybody have any ideas as to how we can assist Sunset with getting enough orders to run the model?

Just my opinion but, how don't know of ANY method to force more modelers in O Scale, to place enough reservations/orders for models that have already been produced in mass, no matter whether they were/are actually accurate or not.

 

I would ask how many orders they need to produce something and then give them an order for that many. If you can't sell them after you get them, then you'll know why they wouldn't do it.

USMC 1966-69

GVDobler posted:

I would ask how many orders they need to produce something and then give them an order for that many. If you can't sell them after you get them, then you'll know why they wouldn't do it.

Yes, AND you’ll also have bragging rights (“I bought ALL of them...”) at your favorite singles bar which I’m sure will make the ladies swoon!😝

I thought that Midwest Model Works was planning on offering SD45/SD40 and SD45-2/SD40-2 models (only 2-Rail SCALE, of course). I saw the samples at the Chicago March Meet, last March.

Hot Water posted:

I thought that Midwest Model Works was planning on offering SD45/SD40 and SD45-2/SD40-2 models (only 2-Rail SCALE, of course). I saw the samples at the Chicago March Meet, last March.

They are. I have a reservation for a CSX SD40-2. Erik is still taking deposits for this project which includes SD40's, SD39's, SD38's and SD35's.

Neither 3rd Rail (SD40-2) nor Atlas (SD40) received enough interest to move forward with their models.  The MTH SD40-2 is 2-rail convertible but you're still left with swinging pilots, undersized fuel tank and an unsightly gap between the trucks and pilots.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

For what it's worth, I am far more interested in 4-axle diesels and smaller steam engines.  They just look better going around 60" radius curves.  Therefore, a correct GP40-2 in any phase would pique my interest.

That said, if a single SD40-2 reservation would make the difference (I doubt it), then I would place one to help get things going...but right now for me that money is better spent on other things.  I have a VERY short 'want' list of 6-axle diesels (NKP and black Erie Alco PA, maybe an SD50).

I suspect my opinion is not representative of the masses, because it seems everyone and their brother owns a Big Boy or Challenger, haha.

Overall, it is a good time for O-scale.  It would be nice if there were a company like A-Line/Rail Power for HO, cranking out undecorated diesel body shells in all variations so we can build our own.

catnap posted:
Hot Water posted:

I thought that Midwest Model Works was planning on offering SD45/SD40 and SD45-2/SD40-2 models (only 2-Rail SCALE, of course). I saw the samples at the Chicago March Meet, last March.

They are. I have a reservation for a CSX SD40-2. Erik is still taking deposits for this project which includes SD40's, SD39's, SD38's and SD35's.

Neither 3rd Rail (SD40-2) nor Atlas (SD40) received enough interest to move forward with their models.  The MTH SD40-2 is 2-rail convertible but you're still left with swinging pilots, undersized fuel tank and an unsightly gap between the trucks and pilots.

Undersized fuel tank? Undersized how... Length or width? The width looks perfectly fine with me on the PS2 & PS3 models.

member:Golden Spike Club Charter Member

Length - It's nowhere near close to a scale 4,000 gallon tank.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

It's been a while since I brought up the world's greatest loco and it could be built for 4 railroad lines.

Milwaukee, Soo Line, Wisconsin Southern, Wisconsin Central, and FEPASA (regauged to 5') in Chile.

PLEASE, SOMEONE, MAKE THESE LOCOS, AS I WOULD BUY A MILW AND THE FEPASA. My wife was raised in Chile.

Dick

 

Dick Donaway

VietNam Veteran

They'll be home for Christmas, if even in our dreams?  I'd love to see this go forward but not enough orders to make it happen yet.  Too many inferior versions to pollute the market for a good one.

Jonathan

 

Jan posted:

I would think the answer is obvious -- the PRR didn't have any!

Jan

Or the NYC.  Or any number of other railroads that disappeared before they appeared.

One of the turn-offs for me in the 3rd Rail offerings is the QSI sound.  Certainly the 3rd rail detail and drive are better than most competitive offerings.  I've standardized on Loksound with a few Tsunami's still remaining.  If a straight DC version or Loksound equipped was offered I'd be in for at least 6.   If the newer Lionel units (SD40 and SD40-2) with the Kinematic pilots could more easily be converted to 2R I'd be just as happy with those as i can get the twin motors working well enough for fine operations.  Also, plenty of options to add ditchlights and the correct details, not to mention the market has been better for reselling the legacy components then the QSI decoder, at least for me.    

Thank you,

Mike

GG1 4877 posted:

Too many inferior versions to pollute the market for a good one.

That's the conundrum of  2 rail O scale.  Quantity seems to overrule quality.    Pennsy steam is that way.  For such a "popular" road with a supposedly saturated O scale following I NEVER see anything other than a few PSC K4s or Westside J's or H6sbs for sale in 2 rail.   Where did  all the rest of the 2 rail PRR steam go?

The -40-2 is arguably one of the best modern locomotives ever made but has seemingly a small following in O scale.  Too "pedestrian" maybe?

At the same time E and F units are done again and again and again in seemingly endless variations, ad nauseam.  They must have buyers or they wouldn't be made.

 

Rob M. ARHS # 3846 PRRT&HS # 8141 EPTC "Life Is Like A Mountain Railway, With An Engineer That's Brave..."

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At first glance, MTH may have saturated the market?  Here is a quick search on their website for catalog releases for the SD40-2.. Granted later releases had some improvements.   Looking at recent years they seem to average a run, or at least a listing every year or two.

Thank you,

Mike

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Rule292 posted:
GG1 4877 posted:

Too many inferior versions to pollute the market for a good one.

That's the conundrum of  2 rail O scale.  Quantity seems to overrule quality.    Pennsy steam is that way.  For such a "popular" road with a supposedly saturated O scale following I NEVER see anything other than a few PSC K4s or Westside J's or H6sbs for sale in 2 rail.   Where did  all the rest of the 2 rail PRR steam go?

The -40-2 is arguably one of the best modern locomotives ever made but has seemingly a small following in O scale.  Too "pedestrian" maybe?

At the same time E and F units are done again and again and again in seemingly endless variations, ad nauseam.  They must have buyers or they wouldn't be made.

 

For a model railroader, E and F units span the period from steam into full dieselization. Thus they allow a lot of flexibility in settings and acquisition of motive power. SD-40-2's are restricted to just the modern era.

I see most of the Pennsy Models from USH and MG and sunset at O scale shows.     Maybe not all at all shows, but within a year, I have seen 4-5 L1s, 4-5 I1s, some USH K4s, CLW H10s, GEM B6, USH C1, MG C1, Various M1 and M1A, N1 and J1

I also see many of these for sale on EBAY, but I have never dealt that way.  

Norm's O Scale, Allegheny Scale models usually have 5-10 pennsy models on their websites or in their ads.     They usually have many tables at the March Meet in Lombard IL (Chicago area).     American Scale Models (Bill Davis) also has a large variety of stuff that changes rapidly.        

The L1s seem to be most available, ie least popular.     I1s show up pretty often too, and then probably 3rd are the mountains.    K4 are actually probably most available, but are passenger locos.

Too many Remakes of F & E units and Museum pieces are what dominate O gauge, Sadly.

I'm holding on to my custom painted O gauge equipment, but have been purchasing stuff in HO (which is not available in O) SDP45, SD40-2, GP40X, GP40-2, GP50, SD45-2, U36C, B23-7, B30-7, B36-7, F45, SDF40 etc.

prrjim posted:

I see most of the Pennsy Models from USH and MG and sunset at O scale shows.     Maybe not all at all shows, but within a year, I have seen 4-5 L1s, 4-5 I1s, some USH K4s, CLW H10s, GEM B6, USH C1, MG C1, Various M1 and M1A, N1 and J1

I also see many of these for sale on EBAY, but I have never dealt that way.  

Norm's O Scale, Allegheny Scale models usually have 5-10 pennsy models on their websites or in their ads.     They usually have many tables at the March Meet in Lombard IL (Chicago area).     American Scale Models (Bill Davis) also has a large variety of stuff that changes rapidly.        

The L1s seem to be most available, ie least popular.     I1s show up pretty often too, and then probably 3rd are the mountains.    K4 are actually probably most available, but are passenger locos.

I hesitate to reply as not to make this a PRR steam thread.   Most of the PRR steam for sale dates to the 70's and earlier and few of it is even close to being accurate.   Anything accurate (other than the current run L1s that are /were slow sellers) like Key H9's (which are long in the tooth, sparsely detailed and without sound but are physically accurate) are well over a grand.   Strangely, most 2 railers don't care about accuracy but even Lionel did PRR H's with a choice of lines east or lines west tenders.    

I'm not putting down E and F units just saying they seem to be cranked out and selling at the same time that the SD40-2 shows little interest.    And the SD40-2 is synonymous with modern railroading as much as F units are to the transition era.

Human nature I guess that looks rule.  We'd choose the show horses before we'd choose the work horses. 

Rob M. ARHS # 3846 PRRT&HS # 8141 EPTC "Life Is Like A Mountain Railway, With An Engineer That's Brave..."

Unfortunately for all of this, the manufacturing of trains is a business and the items that come to market are the ones that sell.  Sadly, as I had two on pre-order, the SD40-2 does not seem to have captured the excitement we all hoped it would.  In that sense the market has spoken for the time being.

Jonathan

 

'Strangely, most 2 railers don't care about accuracy'

curious how you derive that Rob? From my experience about 70% of 2 railers look for accuracy in their modeling.

I am John Galt !

Chris

The whole subject baffles me.  There is no blame or shame to be distributed if a model one desires is not produced.  Modelers and manufacturers have freedom of choice, even if we think those choices are stupid or irrational.

Any model that you measure closely, will mostly like have some inaccuracies.     Some are due to compromises to allow it to run on our track which is 5 ft gauge and some due to wrong drawins sent or wrong interpretations.      Remember the people that build these have never seen them and may have no idea what they are, they just work from whatever plans and drawings that are provided.     And many of the importers are not modelers, simply businessmen, so they work with whatever is provided them by so-called "experts".

On the other hand, many issues in detail are often on the order of 3-6 scale inches, which is no big deal in my opinion.   

As or electronics, most scale modelers in any scale have their preferences, so not being available in a brass steamer is also no big deal.    Most of my HO buddies have favorite sound systems of various brands and rip out whatever comes in the loco and replace it with their favorites.     I know a lot of BLI and Proto 2000 HO locos that have the electronics stripped out to put in "better" ones.    So if you are going to install your own, why pay for whatever the importer puts in.   

And the market does decide whether a model project will fly or not.     Apparently at the price point Sunset wanted to meet, they could not get enough reservations for the SD40-2.     Now in reality  while the SD4-2 is considered modern by us old guys, it is an antique to the young guys and no longer seen on the big RRs as far as I know.   

As for market, the Sunset GP7/9 announcement apparently went very well and that project is well on the way to production.

 

Rule292 posted:

I   Strangely, most 2 railers don't care about accuracy but even 

I'm not putting down E and F units just saying they seem to be cranked out and selling at the same time that the SD40-2 shows little interest.    And the SD40-2 is synonymous with modern railroading as much as F units are to the transition era.

Human nature I guess that looks rule.  We'd choose the show horses before we'd choose the work horses. 

Hogwash. Why do you think we're in 2 rail? The problem with the modern stuff is it has ZERO styling. B.O.R.I.N.G! The designs make sense, but aesthetics go out the window. I understand it, it's business, but I don't have to like it. Add to that, less road names, less color schemes, more B.O.R.I.N.G!

Simon

PRR Man posted:

'Strangely, most 2 railers don't care about accuracy'

curious how you derive that Rob? From my experience about 70% of 2 railers look for accuracy in their modeling.

Just my opinion but I don't see the same interest in "prototype fidelity" in O as I do in  other scales. .  This scale seems to be stuck in the blue box Athearn era where others have moved into the Kato and BLI postmodern scale model world.

I always think of O scale RS3 models.  Not a single one done in the past 25 years has the handrails mounted properly to the walkway and not to the frame/side sill.   This isn't a trivial detail, it's one of the trademarks of the breed.

It's all in good fun since no other scale offers the fun and play value of O scale.

And of course Sunset/3rd rail is working hard to give us those state of the art models.    Ne'er a better time to be here even if an SD40-2 shows little current interest.

 

Rob M. ARHS # 3846 PRRT&HS # 8141 EPTC "Life Is Like A Mountain Railway, With An Engineer That's Brave..."

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My Atlas SD40.  Not bad for a mass produced 3-rail model.  It doesn't have exclusively CB&Q details but still....

My one complaint is the prime mover sound.  It sounds like a SW7, not a turbocharged 16 cylinder diesel with guts.

By contrast, the  horn is like a heavenly host of angels, it sounds that good.  Probably too good.  Just ask my wife

 

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The weaver RS3s from the original runs with single motor drives had the handrails mounted to the walkways as you state.

The newer wones with the crummy china block drives just had stamped steel frames and hand rails in one piece.

As I'm on the Wrong Side of The Pond, my observations about US O Scale might be way out, but here's what I see:

The main Era of interest is still the Transition Era circa 1950s. Is that partly down to the average age of O Scalers? It's often true that we model what we recall from our youth, and those in O Scale tend to be older - so that's the Era the majority of current O Scalers remember & want to model.

Being older & likely retired, they will also have more 'disposable income' to spend on stuff. Younger modellers interested in, say, 1980s onwards, either aren't into O Scale anyway, or even if they are (like me) can't yet afford mega-bucks models, as they still have mortgages to pay & families to feed (like me!!)

And although prices are relative, for myself with a mortgage & family, Sunset prices ARE mega-bucks, so even if I didn't have to factor in Shipping cost to the UK plus 20% 'Value Added Tax', a Sunset SD40-2 would be way out of my pocket, so it's pointless for me to express interest. Maybe there's a lot of Stateside O Scalers in the same position, which gets mis-read as "no demand for modern diesels", rather than what it really is - "want modern diesels BUT can't afford them at that price".??

A question was asked a while ago on this Forum, after a discussion about the Santa Fe CF7 rebuilds - "would we buy it if Sunset made it?". My answer had to be a sad "No", because no matter how much I really want a CF7 (& I REALLY want a CF7!!!) I couldn't afford a Sunset model if they did it.

If there was more stuff out there similar to first-gen Weaver, & Red Caboose; i.e. plastic-bodied locos with can motor & chaindrive, for 2nd & 3rd generation diesels types, at an affordable price point a bit below current Atlas & MTH, then maybe it would attract those modellers of the 1980s-on scene, create the demand for more, and ensure 2-rail O Scale prospers, rather than dying off - literally - as the inevitable happens to those who remember the Transition Era, taking their demand for stock of that Era with them.

Just my thoughts....

Modelling the Soo Line in 2-Rail, from 5,000 miles away & 27 years too late.

We have to be realistic about costs - vs - what we want them to be.    About 25-30 y ears ago I asked Bowser to if they would make a PRR 4 bay H21 hopper as they were doing in HO.     Their reply was that the dies/tooling for the body would cost about $75,000 to begin with and they didn't think they could sell enough.

Based on that I would guess the dies/tooling for just the shell for the SD40 has to be at least 100,000 today.    If so and you sold 100, each one would have to cover 1000 in costs before you make anything.    If you sold 1000, (probably realistic number in O), each one has to cover 100 for cost of shell tooling.    Then  you need to do the frame, the trucks, the drive train, add detail parts and assemble them.    then you need to ship them to US or where-ever.     After all that,  you need to make enough on them to help pay your mortgage and your grocery bill.    So 7-800 for a plastic/diesel does not sound so outrageous.

Phil McCaig posted:

My Atlas SD40.  Not bad for a mass produced 3-rail model.  It doesn't have exclusively CB&Q details but still....

My one complaint is the prime mover sound.  It sounds like a SW7, not a turbocharged 16 cylinder diesel with guts.

By contrast, the  horn is like a heavenly host of angels, it sounds that good.  Probably too good.  Just ask my wife

 

We are talking about SD40-2, very different. Both Atlas and Lionel Straight SD40 (not Dash 2) locomotives are fine.

Mike DeBerg posted:

At first glance, MTH may have saturated the market?  Here is a quick search on their website for catalog releases for the SD40-2.. Granted later releases had some improvements.   Looking at recent years they seem to average a run, or at least a listing every year or two.

I talked to two 3-railers and neither of them are satisfied with MTH or Lionel's offerings.  I don't know how to reach other 3-railers as I'm not allowed to post this same question to the 3-rail forum.  I tried but it was deleted with the explanation that it's against the rules........

Brad Kowal posted:

As popular as the SD40-2 was, I'm surprised Sunset can't obtain enough reservations to produce the model.

What is the explanation for this?

My own theory is that the current Sunset market is geared toward earlier models, so the venture toward selling more modern equipment needs to capture a different segment if the market. And that market might have been tainted when they produced their first diesel in the 1990s..the GE dash 9, which was really bad compared to what they're doing now.

Other manufacturers have produced this model for the 3 rail market, but the same other manufacturers have produced most of the other stuff that Sunset has no problems selling.

Does anybody have any ideas as to how we can assist Sunset with getting enough orders to run the model?

I've read all the reaponses and appreciate the input.  I'm just wondering where the modern era guys are hiding.  Everything modern Atlas produces sells.  The better more detailed freight cars  that Lionel and MTH produces (there are not many of them) sells and can't be found except at high collector prices.  So, I am not shutting out any other facts, but we really need to hear from the modern era guys a bit more before we can write this off.

There is a possiblily of producing SD40-2's in brass along with variants such as SD38-2's and SD39's etc.  That would expand part of the market as well as shrink another part of the market at the same time.   Once I have more information, I will put together some kind of survey and see how many orders we might be able to come up with for somebody, whether it be Sunset or perhaps somebody else.

Hot Water posted:

I thought that Midwest Model Works was planning on offering SD45/SD40 and SD45-2/SD40-2 models (only 2-Rail SCALE, of course). I saw the samples at the Chicago March Meet, last March.

One issue with MMW is the Kohs level cost.  Alhough impossible for most, it is duable for a few when you're looking at one steam locomotive.  When you need 2-3 of the same diesel, $2900 a copy becomes futher out of reach unless those are the only locomotives you will have or you're not building a layout.

Not knocking MMW, but the Sunset SD40-2 was in the $700 range with DCC and Sound.  We might not like the sound, but you could pull it out of the box and put it on almost any layout (DC or DCC) and run it.  Not possible with MMW if you're running DCC.

One big plus for MMW is that he's doing something unique with the option to have opening hood doors with a detailed interior.  While that increases the cost significantly, it does offer something unique that you're not going to get anywhere else and as a result I could see where one of those models makes it on a few poeples' bucket lists of items they want to own.

I am not in the market for these - as you guessed, I am long in the tooth, and lose interest completely beyond the SD9.  Most of my Diesels are sand cast PAs, E7s, and a lonely Erie-Built.  

And worse - for no rational reason, I prefer metal and wood models to plastic.  Scott's E7s are things of great beauty, but I am taking a step backward and hopefully getting some sand cast sides (reminds me - I ought to call the foundry).

It would be interesting to do a poll - first question would be "can you tell the difference between an SD40 and an SD70? "  My answer would be no, and I would be excused from the poll, but counted as an O Scaler.

If you said yes, the next question would be " can you tell the difference between an SD40 and an SD40-2 ?"  A yes answer would lead to question 3:

Would you buy an accurate SD40-2 in plastic with horizontal drive for $700 ?

My guess is that at that point you would be dealing with 1% of current 2-rail O Scalers.  That may be enough - probably not.

But best of luck - hope springs eternal.

All of things mentioned above are on the to do list by MMW.  The first group will include SDP45s and the 2nd the SD40-2s, SDP40s, SD39s, SD38s, SD38-2s.

I like the "Tunnel" models, being a proponent of Southern Pacific, and the chances of seeing these built are even slimmer.

 

Yves

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Jonathan,

Just curious of how many reservations were received (2 and 3 rail) on the SD40-2 project

if you don't want to disclose, I totally understand

 

I've had a long standing reservation with Sunset for a pair of Bluebonnet SD40-2's. I remain hopeful they one day come to fruition, but with each passing year that seems more and more less likely.

OMI imported SD40-2's about 30 years ago, which I really like and think are pretty decent. They are sort of difficult to come by anymore but can occasionally be found for about what a new Sunset/Lionel/MTH sells for. Here's one I just upgraded DCC and lighting in, sorry the video is pretty crappy.

IMG_0265

John

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If there are enough orders for it to put the entire run over top Scott would do it!  Just send him an email requesting it.  Maybe Denzel and Chris Pine will order one.

Jonathan

 

Although an SD40-2 is certainly out of my modeling locale/time frame, as a long time 2R 0 scaler I was surprised that this project has not reached critical mass, and so I asked a friend, whose primary modelling is firmly [ well,....mostly ] in the -2 era, three questions, and his condensed replies follow:

A.  Is it feasible to kitbash a -2 from an Atlas SD40 ?

   He answered this question in a very lengthy, mod by mod manner, as he is not a 'good enough' modeller [ or has a definition of 'good enough' that is far higher than mine ].    The biggest single problem are the HTC trucks, which have a different wheelbase than the Atlas truck;  not only do you need different side frames, but a hence new power truck as well, even if one accepted the 'China drive', which he wouldn't.  For everything else, while the Atlas parts department would supply some items and PSC parts would require a lot of work if they were usable at all, there would still be a LOT of doors to rearrange, parts to make etc etc.

B.  What is the general availability of SD40-2 models by CLW, Overland, etc at the March Meet and other major 0 shows ?

   He didn't quite answer this one directly, but more as an extension of the first question.  Very condensed, ideally he would prefer the CLW model, or at least just the trucks if they were available, and he felt the OMI models of that era weren't very good.

C.  Would you buy one with a tank drive:

   No.   He does not like the visual aspect of tank drives.  So no 40-2 orders for Sunset from him.

********************

  One outcome of my first question was my realization that a major question any prospective 40-2 builder faces is " Which version(s) ?"  This loco model was produced over a 10 year time span -- 12+ if one includes the last group of SOO units -- during which there were many changes to the appearance in such areas as grills, nose length, fan styles,  etc, and that's BEFORE one gets to the road specific details.   And while HO sales might provide a guide, I doubt one can translate that directly to the 0 scale market.

Best regards,

SZ

Edited to add three 40-2 photos:  A  C&S from the initial run, an ATSF from the last [ not counting the final SOO's ] , and an MKT just because.

SD40-2 001-2SD40-2 002_edited-1-2SD40-2 003-2

 

 

 

 

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jgtrh62 posted:

I've had a long standing reservation with Sunset for a pair of Bluebonnet SD40-2's. I remain hopeful they one day come to fruition, but with each passing year that seems more and more less likely.

OMI imported SD40-2's about 30 years ago, which I really like and think are pretty decent. They are sort of difficult to come by anymore but can occasionally be found for about what a new Sunset/Lionel/MTH sells for. Here's one I just upgraded DCC and lighting in, sorry the video is pretty crappy.

IMG_0265

John

Really enjoyed the video. Great model.

Regarding the SD40-2, Why not offer the 5 or 6 railroads that had to most such as UP, BN, Milw (my favorite), etc.

Dick

Dick Donaway

VietNam Veteran

CBQer posted:

Regarding the SD40-2, ............, Milw (my favorite),

Ref my post earlier today:  My friend specifically pointed out that the MILW units are especially handicapped visually were a tank drive used because of their smaller [ = shorter ] fuel tanks.

SZ

CBQer posted:

Regarding the SD40-2, Why not offer the 5 or 6 railroads that had to most such as UP, BN, Milw (my favorite), etc.

Dick

If only 5 or 6 RR’s were offered then this project would stand an even lesser chance of getting done. Lots of RR’s had or still have SD40-2’s, so why not offer them all?

I still stand firm on my 2 Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2’s that I reserved in 2016. I would add a 3rd if there was a real chance of these making the cut.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

catnap posted:
CBQer posted:

Regarding the SD40-2, Why not offer the 5 or 6 railroads that had to most such as UP, BN, Milw (my favorite), etc.

Dick

If only 5 or 6 RR’s were offered then this project would stand an even lesser chance of getting done. Lots of RR’s had or still have SD40-2’s, so why not offer them all?

I still stand firm on my 2 Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2’s that I reserved in 2016. I would add a 3rd if there was a real chance of these making the cut.

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

"Is it feasible to kitbash a -2 from an Atlas SD40 ?"

Isn't the biggest problem the fact that the -2 is about 3ft longer than the SD40?

When I got an Atlas SD40 I was intent on numbering it in the Soo Line's 66xx-series of SD40-2, mainly so I could have a four-digit unit to contrast with my other locos which were mostly 3-digit numbers. Once I started doing some research on the differences between the SD40 & -2, I soon gave up on that idea!!! My model ended up as SOO 755.

 

Modelling the Soo Line in 2-Rail, from 5,000 miles away & 27 years too late.

SundayShunter posted:

"Is it feasible to kitbash a -2 from an Atlas SD40 ?"

Isn't the biggest problem the fact that the -2 is about 3ft longer than the SD40?

Yes, at least 3 feet longer, plus the trucks are different on the "Dash 2" series SD units.

When I got an Atlas SD40 I was intent on numbering it in the Soo Line's 66xx-series of SD40-2, mainly so I could have a four-digit unit to contrast with my other locos which were mostly 3-digit numbers. Once I started doing some research on the differences between the SD40 & -2, I soon gave up on that idea!!! My model ended up as SOO 755.

 

 

Daniel Raible posted:
catnap posted:
CBQer posted:

Regarding the SD40-2, Why not offer the 5 or 6 railroads that had to most such as UP, BN, Milw (my favorite), etc.

Dick

If only 5 or 6 RR’s were offered then this project would stand an even lesser chance of getting done. Lots of RR’s had or still have SD40-2’s, so why not offer them all?

I still stand firm on my 2 Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2’s that I reserved in 2016. I would add a 3rd if there was a real chance of these making the cut.

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

I guess it bears repeating for the 100th time, ANY ROAD NAME which receives sufficient reservations will be done, IF the SD40-2 in general receive sufficient reservations.  I think 20 is the minimum for a specific road name but Scott would be the person to ask directly about that.  IF it does not show up on his reservation pages if it because no one has reserved any.

I don't know if it helps you 2R guys, but put in a reservation for 2 W&LE 3R SD40-2 in 3R.  I found this thread very helpful in learning about the other SD40-2 models out there.  I'm glad I didn't buy any of them.  One question though, what exactly is a tank drive?

Last edited by rplst8

Jonathan,

    I'm considering ordering a pair of these SD40-2's and wondering if any of them have operational ditch lights?  I'm leaning toward CP Rail and all the prototypes in this paint scheme I see have ditch lights.  

Rich

Hi Rich.  Operating ditch lights are actually one of the easier items to add.  As I recall they were done for the late era SD7/9 project.  At a minimum the Norfolk Southern units had them on that project.

Some of the other issues regarding the phasing of this locomotive will need a lot more scrutiny, but until the orders reach critical mass design won't start in earnest.  That is why these threads are helpful to keep a database of all information shared to date.  With the recent resurrection of this thread and renewed interest perhaps this project can stay alive!

Jonathan

 

rplst8 posted:

I don't know if it helps you 2R guys, but put in a reservation for 2 W&LE 3R SD40-2 in 3R.  I found this thread very helpful in learning about the other SD40-2 models out there.  I'm glad I didn't buy any of them.  One question though, what exactly is a tank drive?

A tank drive is a common name for a horizontally mounted motor with a worm gear that powers all axles.  The Sunset / 3rd Rail drive is a roughly center mounted can motor in the body with a geared belt similar to some timing belts in cars that connects to the worm gear inside the fuel tank.

From a performance standpoint the drive has more torque than the vertically mounted "China drive" as it is commonly referred to.  Atlas has used a tank drive in the AEM7 and the early SW units.  My AEM7 is an outstanding puller for its size.  Also slow speed performance without command is a little better and with command the tank drive can run right at 1 smph.  

From an aesthetic standpoint the worm being exposed visually in a few spots at the level of the fuel tank can be distracting on locomotive with smaller tanks.  The benefit it that it does allow for a complete cab interior with control stands and other interior features.  

Hope that helps.  I should take some photos.

Jonathan

 

Recent  SD9 offering from Sunset.   

Takes space and swing to do this, IMO.  Way different from a two vertical can design.  

There is a variation where the motor drives a dropdown over each truck, eliminating the U joint problem with the shaft coming out of the fuel tank. Old as the hills, and in all All Nation Diesel models.

The China drives could be made in the same gear ratios, and then would have roughly the same speeds and pulling power.  The problem is that the motor bearings absorb radial force due to worm engagement, and those spur gears can get rocks in them.  Those two problems are not a real headache unless you run eight hours a day for years or have loose ballast.

As noted a tank drive makes the connection to the trucks in the fuel tank, hence tank drive.  In addition to Sunset Key uses the tank drive system for it's diesels.  Another horizontal drive system was used by Overland wherein the connection between the axle gears and the motor is done in a tower attached to each truck near the pivot point attachment between the truck and the chassis.  A third method, used by Midwestern, is to put the connection just above the floor of the chassis.  Erik at Midwestern has been doing these type of drive updates for many years and is how he got started.  This makes it possible to add detailed entire nteriors and maintain a functional drive system.    For the foreseeable future it's either the vertical drive, the tank drive or Midwestern's.  It depends on how big a deal it is to you and how much you are willing to pay, or not pay, for it to make a difference.

Last edited by rdunniii

If an accurate model of AWVR 1206 is offered with the odd headlights I am all for it. I'm actually having the AC4400s custom painted right now.

 IMG_6160.PNG

Max

"Passing the torch to the next generation of railroaders, one whistle toot at a time"

See me on Youtube

 

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rplst8 posted:

I don't know if it helps you 2R guys, but put in a reservation for 2 W&LE 3R SD40-2 in 3R.  I found this thread very helpful in learning about the other SD40-2 models out there.  I'm glad I didn't buy any of them.  One question though, what exactly is a tank drive?

Thanks for your reservations.  Every bit helps.

2-rail vs 3-rail irrelevent.  It used to be the majority were 3-rail,  they are now a decreasing minority.

It's the total reservations that matter.

A tank drive means that there are drive shafts emerging from the central fuel tank, usually with universal joints, conveying power to the trucks fore and aft.

It was probably the most common arrangement for 2-rail O scale diesels made during the 20th Century, including Weaver, P&D Hobbies, and Sunset/3rd Rail.  Some object to this setup.  Because depending on the length of the fuel tank and style of truck, the protruding drive shaft can be visible when viewed at or near eye level, which ruins the illlusion for some.

Most newer low-priced road diesels from Atlas and MTH use a small can motor mounted vertically on each truck, that swivels with the truck.  This is sometimes known as a "China drive" because these locos are made in China.  As mentioned the gear ratios are usually too tall for best performance, and the motors are much smaller, developing less torque.  Also since the worm gears in each truck are self-locking (i.e., wheels cannot turn the motor), the motors can sometimes buck each other at very slow speeds, which is not a desirable characteristic.

@GG1 4877 The Atlas AEM-7 and SW's don't have a tank drive.  They have what I like to call a cassette drive.  This is what most locos in S and HO scale use, maybe N scale too.  A central motor in the body has two shafts with a universal joint on each end.  This drives a worm at the top of a clam shell "gear cassette" which is mounted on, or part of the truck frame.  So in these cases you don't see a protruding shaft.  The truck sides are ornamental because the axle bearings are inboard.  This design lends itself to mass production,  but it's difficult to retrofit a cassette drive to existing models.  First, the clam shell gear cassette has to be specific to the truck wheelbase.  Also, the frame has to have a gantry or pivot point for the gear cassette.  If the pivot point is too high, the trucks will tend to "wheelie" under load.  This was a problem with the 1970s Atlas F9s (and Red Caboose GPs that used the same drive.)  It can be mitigated through the fabrication and installation of "Armstrong brackets."  If the pivot point is low enough, the model can usually have a detailed cab interior.

I love the Midwestern Model Works drive, it might be the best of all.  But are they actually being produced?  What's the wait time, and how much do they cost!?

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

Last edited by Ted S

Thanks for the expanded clarification Ted.  I had not heard the term cassette drive before.  Coming out of HO and N for so many years I'm quite familiar with the gear towers coming up from the truck to a drive shaft connected inside the body.  There were kits designed for Athearn and others that added gears to improve the gear ratios for very slow speed performance pre command.  I think it was Rail Power Products, but that goes back to the 80's and my teens which I kind of remember?

The vertical can motors in HO and N do predate the common term of "China drive" as Rivarossi, AHM, and early Atlas used a vertical motor powering a single truck going back to the late 60's.  Most were produced in Italy or Austria at the time.  They were know for their speed more than anything else  but I still have several as all the Rivarossi GG1s used this drive.

Jonathan

 

I found this picture of a W&LE SD40-2 (according to an online W&LE engine roster) in my photo archives that would be very tempting.  This picture was taken not far from my house back on 4/13/2018.  Doubtful the engine is this clean today.

 

W&LE 7005

 

 

Greg

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W&LE recently started renumbering their SD40-2's in the 7000 series, I would want mine with the 4K gallon fuel tank. The ex-MILW RD SD40-2's have 3,200 gallon tanks.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

On the tank drive - it may well be the most common, but it probably doesn't work well on things like F7s, GP7s, or RS-3s.  The problem is geometry - the angle of the u-joints becomes extreme with smaller wheelbase models.  An F7 would simply lock up on a 36" radius curve.  U joints have a critical angle, beyond which they just don't work at all well.

Thanks for all the info on the tank drive!  I was aware of that style (central motor with universal joints) but never heard that term. 

It would seem to me, that with the way it's implemented in the 3rd Rail models, the drive shaft would need to be able to lengthen when going around turns since the pivot point is further forward.  Do they use a slip yoke of some sort?

The Athearn HO models I had in my youth used a similar design, but the driveshafts went to a worm gear with a universal joint above the pivot point.

Bob knows a lot more about O scale locos than I do.  But I have a 2nd generation Weaver GP38 that has U-joints.  Strictly speaking it's not a tank drive, because the high-low transfer tower is mounted on one of the trucks.  But it does have an underfloor drive shaft that runs the length of the body through the fuel tank, with two intermediate U-joints.  It's a 3-rail unit.  I've operated it through un-eased "O42" (21" radius) circular curves with no issues.  The driveline angles get pretty extreme, but it works without hesitation or binding.

The U-joints used by Weaver / P&D have a telescoping yoke.  I like this design better than the slotted hollow tubes originally used by All-Nation, etc.  Without some kind of telescoping shaft and a provision to retain the horned ball / swivel, I can definitely see the ball sliding out of the cup on a sharp curve.  [Now let the debate begin about whether the slots on opposite ends of the tube should be in the same plane, or offset 90 degrees!  ]

Sunset 3rd Rail has recently offered F3s and GP7s which are a central tank drive with U-joints.  The 3-rail versions are rated to negotiate un-eased O54 (27" radius) curves.  With a telescoping shaft or sliding yoke the geometry can be made to work.  But I would agree that a truck-mounted system is probably a better choice for very sharp curves.

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

Last edited by Ted S

The 3rd Rail drive system does operate on 054 minimum curves in 3 rail O scale and is more of a function of the swing of the coupler with a fixed pilot versus the tank drive.  There are a lot of universals that allow for this accommodation.  The 2 rail versions are 54" radius recommended but the F units have negotiated 48" radius without issues.  The FL9, FT, FP7, F7 models are all able to take the 054 curves barely.  The longer models don't do quite as well.

There is no doubt that these are never going to be O42 or O36 models.  That is where the vertical truck motors make the most sense.

Jonathan

 

My GGD F7s, FP7s with single motor drive will go around 48 inch radius with no problem.    Even my E7s will do this.    I just got a pair of Alco PAs and it looks like they will too.    I set them on the curve and there was still play in the trucks.   I don't have them programmed to run yet.

You guys have a different definition of tank drive.  The reason it is called "tank drive" is because the drive shafts come out of the fuel tank area, straight in to the closest gearbox.

The smaller wheelbase locomotives use a higher drive shaft connecting to a tower.  U joint angles are much, much lower.  Same with the shaft that goes all the way from one truck to the other  - much, much lower U joint angles.

With a good size motor, a tank drive on an F7 just won't work except on straight track.

The original Weaver RS3s had a sprocket tower in the tank with shafts out to both trucks.     The motor was in the hood.    It would go around 24 inch radius although the pilot over hang was so much it could not pull anything.      It could work with 40 ft cars on 36 inch radius.     

While the motor was on in the tank, the drive train was.

And by the way E7s are not particularly small locos.    

Yes- it will work on the E7.  I doubt seriously that it would work on the SD7.  The central drop-down gives you slightly more room, since the drive shafts can be longer.  The original CLW tank drives were only on the very long SD40 series, and even then they were not great.  The longer the wheelbase, the more the truck swivels.

Any of these systems require high quality U joints.  Don’t get me started on early Overland.

bob2 posted:

Yes- it will work on the E7.  I doubt seriously that it would work on the SD7.  The central drop-down gives you slightly more room, since the drive shafts can be longer.  The original CLW tank drives were only on the very long SD40 series, and even then they were not great.  The longer the wheelbase, the more the truck swivels.

Any of these systems require high quality U joints.  Don’t get me started on early Overland.

Works fine on Sunsets SD7s.  It is more visible in the single tank vs dual fuels tanks but was designed and tested for it's minimum rated radius.

I just ordered a couple 2-rail Chessie SD40-2 from Sunset.  These are my very first true 2-rail engines.  I hope they get enough orders.  I've got time though, I'm planning to tear down the Black Diamond Railway and rebuild a new 2-rail layout with one 3-rail upper level.   I'm working on the layout design now.  

Rich, Are you going to make any videos of the construction like you did for the black diamond?  

Thank you,

Mike

Mike DeBerg posted:

Rich, Are you going to make any videos of the construction like you did for the black diamond?  

Mike,

   Yes!  That's part of the fun.  I'm excited because it has been a long time since I got to work on and build a layout.  I will definitely video as I go and try to document the whole thing from the beginning unlike my last video series where I got the idea to make the videos after the platform was done.   I'll probably even have a time lapse of the whole thing from tear down to rebuild.  This will be years in the making though.  

Rich

Daniel Raible posted:

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

Since all 51 W&LE SD40-2 units are hand me downs from various Class I Railroads, it's not really feasible to make an "accurate" version as there would be 51 variances.

W&LE Roster

Rich Battista posted:

I just ordered a couple 2-rail Chessie SD40-2 from Sunset.  These are my very first true 2-rail engines.  I hope they get enough orders.  I've got time though, I'm planning to tear down the Black Diamond Railway and rebuild a new 2-rail layout with one 3-rail upper level.   I'm working on the layout design now.  

Rich,

Are you demolishing the Black Diamond or are you going to sell it? If you are demolishing will you use most of the buildings, etc. on the new project? When do you think you will begin the project? The Black Diamond is such an inspiration to us 3-railers. 

I'm sure your new project will be just as inspirational and am glad you plan to document everything.

Dave

SPSF posted:
Daniel Raible posted:

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

Since all 51 W&LE SD40-2 units are hand me downs from various Class I Railroads, it's not really feasible to make an "accurate" version as there would be 51 variances.

W&LE Roster

Not all units are unique. It would be easy to make some with ratcheting nose brakes and others with a brake wheel. That's about the biggest difference aside from fuel tanks (3,200 vs 4,000). The ditch lights and horns are all the same.

A W&LE SD40-2 would be no more difficult to make than any other railroad's version.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

Rich Battista posted:

I just ordered a couple 2-rail Chessie SD40-2 from Sunset.  These are my very first true 2-rail engines.  I hope they get enough orders.  I've got time though, I'm planning to tear down the Black Diamond Railway and rebuild a new 2-rail layout with one 3-rail upper level.   I'm working on the layout design now.  

This may be "the shot heard around the world"!!

Whatever is done, I'll be watching too. This is another one of the people that just have the talent way above the average person here. ( I think a certain mag should cover this build.)

So.... What size curves? 

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

SPSF posted:
Daniel Raible posted:

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

Since all 51 W&LE SD40-2 units are hand me downs from various Class I Railroads, it's not really feasible to make an "accurate" version as there would be 51 variances.

W&LE Roster

Look at it this way: If there are 51 prototype variations out there, there's a better than average chance what is produced will match one of them. 

Simon

Simon Winter posted:
SPSF posted:
Daniel Raible posted:

Out of curiosity, do you know if the Sunset offering would be an accurate representation of the W&LE prototype?

 

I see those units periodically in Medina.  If I were to place a reservation it would likely be for one of those.

Since all 51 W&LE SD40-2 units are hand me downs from various Class I Railroads, it's not really feasible to make an "accurate" version as there would be 51 variances.

W&LE Roster

Look at it this way: If there are 51 prototype variations out there, there's a better than average chance what is produced will match one of them. 

Simon

Very good point, and thank you SPSF for the awesome roster link!  Great place to get educated.

Rich Battista posted:
Mike DeBerg posted:

Rich, Are you going to make any videos of the construction like you did for the black diamond?  

Mike,

   Yes!  That's part of the fun.  I'm excited because it has been a long time since I got to work on and build a layout.  I will definitely video as I go and try to document the whole thing from the beginning unlike my last video series where I got the idea to make the videos after the platform was done.   I'll probably even have a time lapse of the whole thing from tear down to rebuild.  This will be years in the making though.  

Rich

Fantastic Rich!  Looking forward to it! 

Thank you,

Mike

luvindemtrains posted:
Rich Battista posted:

I just ordered a couple 2-rail Chessie SD40-2 from Sunset.  These are my very first true 2-rail engines.  I hope they get enough orders.  I've got time though, I'm planning to tear down the Black Diamond Railway and rebuild a new 2-rail layout with one 3-rail upper level.   I'm working on the layout design now.  

Rich,

Are you demolishing the Black Diamond or are you going to sell it? If you are demolishing will you use most of the buildings, etc. on the new project? When do you think you will begin the project? The Black Diamond is such an inspiration to us 3-railers. 

I'm sure your new project will be just as inspirational and am glad you plan to document everything.

Dave

Dave, I would echo that comment, but would just add you don't have to be a 3-Rail guy to really appreciate the accomplishments that Rich and crew put into that railroad! 

Thank you,

Mike

Daniel Raible posted:
Very good point, and thank you SPSF for the awesome roster link!  Great place to get educated.

Check out this youtube channel. There are lots of excellent videos of the Wheeling & Lake Erie in action.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

I would be completely OK if Scott offered a 2-rail DC model provided the cost was lower. Maybe by offering a 3-rail TMCC version and a 2-rail DC interest will pick up. I would just add my own decoder (LokSound) and speakers. I suspect most 2-railers would be OK with that.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

luvindemtrains posted:
Rich Battista posted:

I just ordered a couple 2-rail Chessie SD40-2 from Sunset.  These are my very first true 2-rail engines.  I hope they get enough orders.  I've got time though, I'm planning to tear down the Black Diamond Railway and rebuild a new 2-rail layout with one 3-rail upper level.   I'm working on the layout design now.  

Rich,

Are you demolishing the Black Diamond or are you going to sell it? If you are demolishing will you use most of the buildings, etc. on the new project? When do you think you will begin the project? The Black Diamond is such an inspiration to us 3-railers. 

I'm sure your new project will be just as inspirational and am glad you plan to document everything.

Dave

Dave,

  I honestly don't know what I'm going to do with my layout yet.  Its likely I will just disassemble it and use what I can then sell the rest.  If anyone is interested, I may remove the urban section (elevated subway) and make a smaller layout from that and sell it.  The problem is I would like to use most of those building in the new layout since some of them are very nice and hard to find.  It really depends on the new layout design.  I plan on designing the layout completely on the computer before I start any construction so I will know what I'm will keep and and sell.  Here is a sneek peek of the layout.  I'm thinking I'll put a large road and buildings in the front left area so it will take a while to work out.  I'm guessing I will not be done for months.  This screen shot is from SCARM.  The cool thing is that I can run simulated trains on it.  I can operate the layout and see what I like and don't like long before I start construction.   Notice I'm going to remove the wall and doorway so I can double my view of the layout.

NewLayoutSneekPeek

I can even see what the CP Rail SD40-2 looks like on this new layout!

NewLayoutSneekPeekSD40

 

 

Rich

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Last edited by Rich Battista

So.... What size curves? 

Joe, thanks.

   The curves will be min 54" radius.   I'm guessing these Sunset SD40-2 will require min 54" radius.  With that I can barely get three loops turned around on the narrow end of my layout.  Like the first layout though, I will try to hide those "smaller" curves and have much larger curves in the visible areas.  The SD40-2 in the pics are coming out of 90" radius curves. 

Rich

So the next question for Rich is DCC or DCS?

Would you prefer models that are DCC ready?

I bought a couple of MTH older EMD models (SD45 and SDxx?) to convert to 2 rail when there wasn't many RTR available. Of course right after I bought them, a bunch of RTR 2 rail versions were available. I really wish the MTH sound sets had more turbo sounds in them when appropriate.

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

Rich,

Thanks for the simulation. I like the idea of you keeping the upper level for your 3-rail equipment. That bridge scene is to die for. I have just the opposite set up. Since I started my 3-rail before I knew 2-rail existed I have mostly that with an added small section of 2-rail. 

I'm glad to hear you will try to keep as much of the equipment on your new project as possible. I watched your DVD's and how you modified those buildings, etc. and there's no doubt they will look great on any layout. They're very impressive. 

Will you still have your "helpers" or have they grown out of helping dad with trains? You might need to start another thread, lol.

Dave

 

 

Last edited by luvindemtrains

I have admired Rich's work for years.  Except for the track, his layout was among the most realistic.  I often wondered how he overlooked the track - now I know he didn't.  

I even saved a photo of his PRR Decapod, because from the side view it truly looked realistic.

Rich,

Hopefully you keep this scene on your layout.

This picture made me start looking into 2 Rail.  Sorry, I cropped it up.

We need a new topic for this announcement.

Rich_bautista_2rail_photoshop_CN10

I would order a pair of Chessie engines for a 2021 delivery date. I need them to come in after the EA/EB engines.

- Calvin

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