Hi all; anyone ever done a Super Chuffer II in a 6-38021 WP #402? It's a good sounding nice running old TMCC, but sadly no puffing smoke.

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There's not a lot of space, but I am thinking maybe right upfront under the smoke unit; or maybe between the motherboard and the frame right above the back drivers of the front power truck. If anyone has done one, does this work, or where did you wind up putting the board? Thanks for any ideas.

Rod

 

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Last edited by Rod Stewart
Original Post

I've put them in a couple of LM locomotives, including this one.  I believe I tucked it under the smoke unit, the Chuff-Generator was installed on the front motor as it has a little space in the front.

Got it done and running! The space under the smu is a little tight, so I removed the big lead weight at the back of the frame (just visible in the pic above) and put the board there. Easy! The weight didn't seem like it brought much to the table; the engine runs fine without it. I could probably reinstall it if needed. I also added cab lighting on this one. Only hard part was carefully drilling the required hole through the boiler "backhead", but it works fine.

The only dissapointment is the somewhat anemic smoke flow due to the cast S fitting that these engines have between the smu and the stacks on the boiler shell. It is quite restrctive as others have pointed out. May just have to live with it though. 

Rod

I actually reamed one of those out once, it was a giant PITA!  There was also one a few years ago on some double-stack engine that came apart, so I used the Dremel to enlarge the passages as much as possible.  Sometimes there's just one place that has the restriction and you can improve things by opening up that spot.

I actually reamed one of those out once, it was a giant PITA!  There was also one a few years ago on some double-stack engine that came apart, so I used the Dremel to enlarge the passages as much as possible.  Sometimes there's just one place that has the restriction and you can improve things by opening up that spot.

Thanks for the info, I may have to give that a look. I noticed that the S funnel is actually in two pieces held together by tiny screws. Obviously Lionel had to get creative in 2003 to get this smoke unit (8057-200) into the tight confines of this engine and feed two stacks. And due to motor spacing it could not sit directly under the stacks.

I just want to add here that I am very happy with how these Super Chuffers work. They are a nice compact board that adds great functionality to tmcc engines, and it's really nice to have them available, thanks to grj.

my first try at installing one a couple of years ago did not go well, but that was no fault of the board. The engine in question (K-Line Mike) was very tight for space and the design of the cherry switch and cam made it impossible to get it to work. That set me back on the whole concept for a while. But time heals all, and since then the two I have done recently have worked great, and I have settled on a technique that is pretty straightforward. All good. 

Rod

 

The two piece one is one I took apart and tried to enlarge as much as possible, I made a decent improvement, but it still wasn't anything like the straight stack.

So After some reaming and grinding the smoke flow is better, but not great. And now it all exits only the rear stack, at about a 45 degree angle, which looks weird to me. Gotta rethink this project.

I might try my hand at building a custom manifold out of 2 or 3 sizes of thin wall brass tubing. Has anyone tried this with any success? 

Rod

Bruk 3D printed a stack for his T1-Duplex upgrade, it came out great.

I don't see why you couldn't build the custom funnel, don't know how difficult it might be.  The key here is making the passages as large as possible with as few turns as  you can.

3D printing, now that's a nifty idea. Hadn't thought of that. The trouble with that would likely be creating the print file for the software to work from. I wonder what's involved?

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

The trouble with that would likely be creating the print file for the software to work from. I wonder what's involved?

A ton!  That's what keeps me from getting involved in 3D printing.

@Rod Stewart posted:

So After some reaming and grinding the smoke flow is better, but not great. And now it all exits only the rear stack, at about a 45 degree angle, which looks weird to me. Gotta rethink this project.

I might try my hand at building a custom manifold out of 2 or 3 sizes of thin wall brass tubing. Has anyone tried this with any success? 

Rod

Hi Rod,

I had the same problem with my 6-28077 LionMaster Challenger #3983 and the "S" shaped smoke stack.    Although it smoked much better after drilling out the circuit board opening to increase airflow, upgrading the resistor and changing the batting, I was still not happy with the direction of the smoke once it left the Challengers shell  because of the "S" shaped restriction (see photo below).  

20160212_160027

I found a much better smoke funnel part #6101208201 in the parts guide for the LionMaster Big Boy #4011 item 6-11028.  To use this improved dual output Big Boy smoke funnel in a LionMaster Challenger you have to:

a. Remove the “V” shaped wedge from the inside your Challenger's shell with a dremel (this is not for the faint of heart)

b. Drill a new hole for the dual output funnel on one side of the smoke units circuit board.  Be careful of the trace wires inside the circuit board (see my round mark in the next photo)

c. Trim the two mounting tabs off the new dual output funnel

d. Seal the old smoke output location on the circuit board

Challenger Smoke unit location change

The results with the Big Boys new dual output funnel were excellent.  Lots of smoke comes out of both the Challengers stacks.  It’s an even amount of smoke and it goes straight up into the air.

Thanks,

 

 

 

 

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Last edited by T.Albers

T.Albers, thanks for that information. That certainly looks doable. Question, do you happen to have a video or picture taken after the mod that you could show us by chance? 

Thanks, Rod

Sorry Rod, I have not been able to figure out how to successfully post videos on this site.

But, here is a photo from the top of the Challengers shell.  You can see the new LionMaster Big Boy funnel #6101208201 fits great once you trim the "V" wedge. 

And some 3983 Challenger screen shots of the video I shot this morning.  

IMG_7081IMG_7082IMG_7083

Sorry, I'm still working on getting a video to insert/hyperlink/post/embed... on this site. 

Here is a link to the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FnAiBkChNM

 

Thanks,

 

 

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Last edited by T.Albers
 

Sorry, I'm still working on getting a video to insert/hyberlink/post/embed... on this site

Thanks,

 

 

If you want to post a video, post the video to YouTube first, right click on the address bar, next, and I learned this from GRJ, Click on the movie icon "Insert/Edit Media" to the left of the Smiley Face. Click on the "Embed" tab, Put the website address in the provided space, then click OK. It should then put the embedded video into your post. 

Last edited by Jayhawk500
@T.Albers posted:

Now that's pretty impressive, and way better than the original effort. Thanks for posting. Question: how did you decide where to drill the new smoke outlet hole in the PCB? Did you have a pattern? It looks to me like a difference of only about 1mm forward or backward would cause trouble getting the new funnel to align with the shell stack outlets.
Also I see that hole is very close to the near side pcb trace, as you said, but that should be no big deal since it's a grounded trace anyway. Note that the Super Chuffer is a great mod, but uses the OEM cherry switch to generate chuffs and puffs; so only 2 chuffs per rev like all TMCC stuff. If you want 4 chuffs per rev you will also need the Chuff Generator I believe.

Rod

Correct, if you want a different chuff rate, my solution is indeed the Chuff-Generator.  You can also do it with magnets and a reed switch, but I find that a giant PITA, which is why I designed the Chuff-Generator.

Here is another of my recent Super Chuffer conversions; a circa 2000 scale Mountain 4-8-2. It chuffs and puffs just great now. I bought this engine quite a few years ago from C.sam here on the forum, and it has been the "victim" of many mods and experiments, some successful! It's kind of been my guinea pig engine.

This engine and the #402 Challenger were built during the era when Lionel was experimenting with speakers and sound. They both use an oval speaker about 3-1/2 x 2 that is set above the tender baseplate by a 3/8" high plastic spacer oval. All in all the sound is pretty good considering. The FatBoy speaker was not in use at this time, it evolved somewhat later in the waning days of TMCC.

Rod

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Hi @Rod Stewart

Yes, you will be within 1mm of error exiting the Challengers shell.  Sorry, I don't have a pattern to share but here is how I measured it on my smoke units circuit board.   

1.  Start with your old "S" funnel screwed in place.  Then mark a line across the circuit board at center of your existing smoke funnel.  Your new funnel needs to exit the shell centered in the same location (white arrow). Note: my line is too far forward.  

2.  Make a mark at the back wall of your smoke fluid chamber because you cannot drill a hole past this mark (yellow arrow).

3.  Remove the "S" funnel and mark a line down the center of the circuit board (blue arrow).  This will give you a crosshair for your new funnels center mark on the circuit board.

Challenger Smoke funnel lines

4.  Because that LionMaster Big Boy #4011 had a dual purpose smoke unit for both whistle and smoke exhaust you will find the funnel has an offset inlet tube on the bottom.  You can either make a new brass inlet tube into that funnels bottom so its perfectly centered on your crosshairs lines.   Or measure the funnels offset and drill into the circuit board next to the traces like I did.  Notice after remeasuring several times readjusted I my marked circle back slightly before drilling into the circuit board.

I know we have two different LionMaster Challengers... so before you do anything permanent to your existing smoke unit make sure the height of your old "S" funnel is the same exact height as this new Big Boy dual outlet smoke funnel part #6101208201.  If the height of the two funnels doesn't match correctly then I would not recommend using this new part.

Good luck Rod and post pictures!

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T. Albers; thanks for the in-depth instructions, much appreciated, and everything you posted makes good sense.  From that closeup picture your original smoke funnel looks identical to the one in mine, so I think the BB funnel should fit. I suspect the Lionel PN's would turn out to be the same; though I have not done a check. I ordered it over the weekend, but no shipping confirmation from Lionel yet, so who knows when I might see it.

Meanwhile I had ordered a bunch of thin wall brass tubing pieces of various sizes (K&S Engineering)  thinking I might try rolling my own. The order arrived yesterday so I have started fabbing a new manifold. Going OK so far, we shall see what comes of this effort. Could be a bust. Definitely a learning experience. I still hope to receive the BB funnel eventually, so I have a plan B.

I just checked the PN's for the S funnels for the two LM Challengers 6-28077 and 6-38021; and they are indeed identical; both PN 6SP8077201. Seems odd they would have carried over the same crappy funnel to a re-release of the same LM engine! But what do I know?

Rod

Last edited by Rod Stewart

Well the brass funnel is done and installed, and better, it seems to work great! It took several hours to fab, very slow going. But having time to do it is no problem these days since we don't leave the house much. 

Here is a few pics. It's not a thing of beauty, but hey, it works!

IMG_0638IMG_0639IMG_0640

It consists of a short piece if 1/4 inch tubing for the feed from the smu, and two stacks of 5/16 tubing, which just fit the shell stack openings. The main body is a piece of 7/16 tubing pressed into an oval 14mm wide by 7mm deep. The end plates are flat brass. The body angles downward at 8 degrees so that smoke fluid hopefully runs into the smu.

I have a video clip but it will have to go on Youtube I guess as its a pretty big file. Later.

Rod

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Very cool Rod, great work.  Who cares what it looks like under the shell, the net result is you have a working stack!

I took another shorter video which hopefully will upload OK.

Overall I am really happy with the way this turned out, and now she smokes up a storm; yahoo!

Rod

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Bruk 3D printed a stack for his T1-Duplex upgrade, it came out great.

I don't see why you couldn't build the custom funnel, don't know how difficult it might be.  The key here is making the passages as large as possible with as few turns as  you can.

John, if that T1 is the same Lionmaster as the one Bruk did, he might be able to whip up a 3D print for you. Bruk, if you are following this thread, there could be a small market for replacement stacks for this lame Lionel design. Does the T1 use the same PN 6SP8077201 as the the Challengers? If so, you already have the pattern ready to go? 

Rod

Bruk did the scale T1 Duplex, this is the Lionmaster model.  Did he do one for a Lionmaster Challenger?  That stack looks similar, but the LM T1 Duplex doesn't have the divider in the funnel.

  

Oddly, the breakdown for the LM T1 Duplex doesn't include the funnel.  Looks very similar to the Challenger one.

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From the picture on the right (LM funnel) that looks identical to the Challenger funnel PN 6SP8077201.

Some key dimensions for PN 6SP8077201 are: 15mm horizontally from CL of bowl outlet to CL of the screw holes. 14mm vertically from the top of the smu pcb to the top of the bowl flange. Bowl flange: 32mm L x 13.5mm W.

Rod

 

Actually that picture of the scale funnel is the same PN I just noticed, except it has the divider added as you noted. That should mean that Bruk's pattern will work in the LM T1, and any of the LM Challengers I would think.

Bruk you may want to consider printing up a few and posting them for sale at a reasonable price. For info, the Bigboy funnel that T.Albers used lists for $12.50 from Lionel. But it requires some mods to be able to use it, as was covered earlier above.

Rod

Last edited by Rod Stewart

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