Super O, YES Or No?

Well here goes, NO, NO, NO.  As nice as it looks you are stuck with 036 curves unless you have the ability to tear this stuff apart and open up the curve to something else.  The turnouts to put it mildly, are awful.  They weren't very good when they were new, they aged like milk instead of fine wine.  I have one loop on my layout that transitions from gargraves to super 0.  I did this at the time because of space limitations, lack of preformed curves in that particular radius and my own inability to form smooth curves with GG at the time.  If it wasn't so much trouble to tear it out I would have done so long ago.  Track gets cleaned more often than anything else, some equipment rides the ties due to deep wheel flanges, my Atlas passenger cars don't like it much either, it almost sounds like they are running on a cobblestone street.  Two williams locos simply refuse to run on the Super O portion of the layout for no reason I can figure out.  The upside is if you can get to a train show, there is lots of this stuff still out there a whole lot less expensive that 10 years ago.  I would recommend Gargraves with Ross, Atlas with Ross or MTH scaletrax if you are looking for realism in 3 rail.  Super 0 was ahead of its time in the 50's, it's time has passed.   I am going to duck and hide now waiting for the Super 0 fans to weight in.

I wish Lionel would have brought it back with optional radius curves. 

Wore out rollers much faster.

Years ago I built a layout using two 4 by 8 boards arranged in an "L", and put a loop of Super "O" around the perimeter. The loop had an uncoupling track section and one manual switch leading into a second manual switch to create a double track siding. Each siding also had an uncoupling track section.

I found that the sliding shoe pickup on many trucks would snag on the uncoupling track, so I removed it from the main line.

I also found that the same would happen sometimes when the switch was set to curved.

Finally, I found that the flanges on many, if not all, tinplate cars would bump on the ties. (they do the same on Gargraves flex track). So I put a loop of "O" gauge in the middle. I had planned to do the whole thing using Super "O".

As mentioned above, I think it's time has passed. Switches were never reliable and I don't think that it's appearance even holds up today when compared to current offerings. 

We're still waiting for the perfect 3-rail track system but Super O is not it.

I am as big a Super-O fan as you can find, as I was really drawn to it as a kid in the 1960's... perhaps I was just an "early-bird" hi-railer.    But ironically, Super-O supplies had dwindled by the time I could save enough funds to buy lots of track back then, as The Lionel Toy Corporation had seen better times.    So as much as I liked the looks of it, I never owned any.

Today, I seriously consider ScaleTrax to be as close as we'll get nowadays to Super-O.  HOWEVER, there are currently serious availability issues when it comes to sourcing ScaleTrax #4/#6 turnouts.  I found no availability problems for O-xx type turnouts and the sectional and flex track pieces.  But the #4 and #6 turnouts are nowhere to be found.  So if you're planning an exotic basement empire, you'd be hard-pressed to choose ScaleTrax until the availability issues are addressed.    Atlas-O had the same issues up until recently.  Folks were waiting over 2 years for switches and broad radii curved sectional track.

David

Bob C,

   Super O, some of the very best Track ever made, had a small inner circle of it in the 60's, even then, darn hard to get any real amount of it.  If you can find & purchase it a little at a time, stock pile it until you have enough for a decent layout.  Great low cost Toy Train stuff all the way, no Command Control Switches however.

PCRR/Dave

IMO the profile of Super-O ties leaves something to be desired, the way it humps up towards the center. The center rail is slightly lower than the running rails as compared to standard-O track, and that is a problem for certain Lionel locos which Lionel mentioned in their service literature. The lack of different curve radii limits layout planning options. The center-rail clips sometimes get lost in second-hand purchases.

Super O is very plentiful, and considerably less expensive than FasTrack, especially the switches(which are easily made to be flawlessly reliable). Custom bending Super-O is easily done to fit your own purposes, although as a commercial-for-resale proposition it is generally too expensive to purchase and too time consuming to sell profitably.

All Super "O", custom bent:  Super O Bob Videos

I love Super O and would have used it on my permanent layout if wider radius curves and switches were available. The No. 112 switches were by far the smoothest switches of the postwar era.

This is a Super O layout I built back in 1989 for the Bear Mountain State Park Christmas Festival.

I'm another Super O proponent.  Love it.  It was on our original layout in 1965, and I have slowly rebuilt my stock of of the track to be used on my upcoming layout redesign.    Looking at our original locos from 1965, I see no bad roller wear. 

Anyway, my switches (original) still work just fine.

Like everything else, some people like it, some people don't.   There's no right or wrong answer.    Go with what you like and NEVER EVER worry about what the next guy thinks.

It's just soooooooooooooooo Lionel ! 

I do not care for "hump rails".

Don't own any; as a kid the humpy-ties bugged me (yeah - the old tubular looked so much better...). However, I had already discovered GarGraves (then HO; then a driver's license...and so on) anyway. 

BUT - I wish that Lionel had re-visited Super-O rather than doing Fastrack. Of course, de-hump the ties, have a valid radii choice, good switches, maybe even built-in roadbed - in other words, Fastrack that looks like GG with built-in ballast and no GG chrome rails. Fastrack is still too toy-looking, but it works well, I'm told.

Super-O can look very good from some angles and presented in a Hi-Rail manner...but has many (correctible) fatal flaws. (Fastrack's visual flaws are not correctible.)

Used to love it back in the day. Still looks better than Gargraves.

Limitations due to 036 curves and bulky 112 switches taking up real estate. Outer rail ends thin out with usage and soldered copper clips still get loose.

With 60 plus years, I discovered an on going resistance build up. Had to finally discard the track to the local landfill. It was installed on probably 8 different layouts since the 50’s. The outside rails rust and corrode internally causing sluggish operation as the ZW became overheated.

I limited it to sidings as shown.  Nice for its time but it never kept up with all the advancements of today.

Rob,

   Would like to know what Super O Bob thinks, and if any of his original layout ever rusted, ours never did, but it was a Christmas layout and was set up each Christmas clear the till the late 70's

PCRR/Dave

Most emphatically YES!  I have made lots of wide radius curves over the years and they look great, most recently upgrading one loop to 82" curves.   Lately I have been using Ross Custom switches and they blend in well.  Makes a really unique looking layout!

Rolland

I have a section of my mainline that is superO.  check out my videos for a view.

That's all I knew,  that;s what I got ,  did not know tube track for  0 ga was around,  I did for STD ga cause of my dads 392E, I like  super o,  would like to see it in STD ga,  fast track is close,

Lionel  G track  sorta looks like it,

Super 0  is more or less flat ,, if your pick up spring is strong it will groove faster,  I had  a nice groove in my 736,  after about 30 years,  running,  at Christmas,

Not a fan.

Its ironic this topic just surfaced because I just purchased a bunch of Super O track because I always liked the looks of it.  I don't have the room to put it on a layout since I already have three separate ones so I just plunked it down on my carpeted basement floor and gave it a whirl.  Since I have a shortage of space the 036 curves don't bother me a bit.  My post-war stuff not only runs great on it; it looks good running on it. Actually, I think the electrical continuity is superior to tubular track because my trains run awfully smooth on it.  The so called hump backed ties don't bother me a bit and I like the flat rails.   As far as roller wear is concerned there has been a great deal of conflicting information about that but I have read comments from many knowledgeable O gauge hobbyists and hobby shop owners who don't put any stock in the roller wear issue at all.  Anyway, if I had known years ago that Super O was available I would have used it for my track system because it is a neat looking system.  As one poster put it, its soooooo Lionel.   As it is, I've been using good old Lionel tubular track for many years and have no complaints.  

It could not handle the 746 J steamer in the curved part of the switch without straight extenders.

All of the track companies need to make switch machines like Marx:  Low, below the heigh of the rails so fewer things can hit it.

BTW, Marx track with the black plastic roadbed looks goog!

It could not handle the 746 J steamer in the curved part of the switch without straight extenders.

Not exactly. If you wanted to start a curve right next to the straight leg of the switch, you needed to use a 1 5/8 straight track to prevent the pilot from striking the switch motor.

The issue is documented here:  746 Service Manual page 1

Robert Coniglio posted:

I have long liked the feel and look of Lionel Super O track. What views do others have? Does anyone run on Super O? 

Bob C. 

The practicality of using Super-O track for a new project will depend a lot on what your desired track plan looks like. If you like it for nostalgia or whatever, draw up some track plan ideas and then consider whether you want to do the custom cutting and custom curve radii to make it all work. Try out some Super-O switches on a temporary layout to see if they work OK for you. If you don't have any Super-O track yet, get some to try out before making a major commitment on a new project.

I've used Super-O only for a circle around a Christmas tree. A friend had a limited batch of it and I sold it for him through this forum.

Some concerns I would have with used Super-O track: it's not as easy to pull the track pins to clean them to insure good electrical continuity. It may be inconvenient or expensive to find replacement center-rail connectors. The snap-together connectors in the tie base sometimes get broken on used pieces, but that's not a problem if the pieces are fastened down on a layout.

My whole layout 20x20 is Super'O', naturally. My layout was built before the manufacturers were gung ho(more scale) oriented on larger radius. I'm not concerned about wider curves, it keeps me in check about buying, so I am pleased with what I have...but I do love Lionmaster and unique remote operated accessories. Everytime I look at a Super'O' layout it's just a euphoric sensation.

Build it! They will come!

For more information there is a Yahoo group dedicated to Super O moderated by OGR Forum member Mike Spanier.  There are almost 800 members in that group.  Here’s a link: Click here: Lionel "Super O" Trackage - Yahoo Groups

I’m one of those members in that Yahoo group as my layout is about half Super O and half Gargraves not counting the Superstreets on the Streetcar (trolley) part of my layout. 

I’ve experienced some of the problems reported here in 40+ years of running trains on Super O but in general my experience with Super O has been very favorable.

Bill

C W Burfle posted:

The issue is documented here:  746 Service Manual page 1

Super O is my first love. I started buying it in 1966 and by 1976 I had enough to build a nice 6 X 14 layout. I used that layout for 5 years and the only problem was backing a GG1 consist through parallel switches. When O72 came out I switched and made the mistake of my life by selling my Super O collection, most of which I had purchased new. After tiring of Standard O on Atlas O in 2013 and building a Post War Celebration collection to run I am running it on Super O. Yes I wished Lionel had redesigned a wider radius Super O instead of fastrak. I have not tried creating wider radius curves. It was costly but I found enough track to build a stretched version of the D-264 for 8 X 17

Yes and no!  No to using it with prewar. No to the switches. No to the crossings.

Yes in level loops just because i grew up with it

Lou N

I really like the look of it.  It reminds me of real life jointed rail.  I've picked up quite a bit of it over the years and am using it for my new around the basement layout.  I'm bending wide radius curves for the layout - not much harder than using flex track.  Also using Ross switches.  

Loved the look of it and used it for years as a kid and teenager.   I still have boxes of it at my mothers place.    The switches worked well for me on a floor layout I had in my sisters room when she moved out.   I have many fond memories running my trains on Super O track !

Looks great but had two problems. Pick up rollers wore faster than on tubular rail and the switches caused a lot of derailments. Finally built an all 0-72 layout. Have since collected a ton of GarGraves and will start a new layout soon.  John

The only reason I would say no is because of poor switch quality and possibly limited availability in some areas.

There are/have been exceptionally limited track pieces, all scales, that are prototypically correct.  I have seen firsthand as near to perfect as can be hand-laid 2 rail track that is actual true "O" scale.

There is no denying it looks authentic.

I wish there had been for years "perfect" O (true O) scale track produced in "MASS QUANTITIES" (Thank you Coneheads!) with "matching" true scale equipment.  Alas, this wasn't the case.

I took sage advice from the biggest majority of modelers (This FORUM) in semi-O scale (99% of us) and went with Gargraves track and Ross Switches.  I did buy a good number of Gargraves switches because by the time I entered this market the Gargraves O-100 turnouts worked and do work exceptionally well!  These two track manufacturers produce outstanding pieces and availability is not an issue.  And Ross Custom Switches are the best turnouts on the planet!  My humble opinion.

Lastly, if you weather and ballast the track/roadbed, ANY track's appearance may be greatly improved and the over-sized issue (or other) can be minimized.  I'm NOT a fan of Lionel Fastrak.  BUT, I've seen people on this Forum show pictures of their weathered Fastrak and the results are stunningly impressive!

Very last, if you are doing an old fashion layout and aren't using switches you'd probably be fine doing Super O if you know where to find it. 

There is my ten cents worth!  LOL

YES!

Thanks,

Phik

For a nostalgia based layout, if you were a kid of the 50's and never had it, I'd go for it. I've acquired a good amount and built a small 9X5 layout for some post war and MPC to run. All of the above threads have their valid points, however, it is so cool to see Post war Trainmasters run on Super O as Josh and God intended.

As for my Hi-Rail Scale stuff thats a different room.

Old thread I thought I had weighed in on.  I thought I liked it for the look, operationally not so much.  036 is too small, one of my 1980's vintage williams locos refuses to run on it (just will not run on that portion of the layout), the Atlas trainman passenger cars and several of my lionel locos all have items that drag on the humped ties.  I have sold or discarded all but the one reverse loop because I need that size and it would be too much work to replace it given the location.  Gargraves and Ross for me if I ever build again, Super O served a purpose but the time has passed by.

Yes, I do!