The Dreaded Zinc Pest strikes again!

No big deal run them and forget about it. Nick

I assure you that I did run them, but I want to replace the affected parts. It is a big deal and should not still be happening in this day and age. These were not free!

Eric Hofberg

rockstars1989 posted:

No big deal run them and forget about it. Nick

Would you want the cars you have be falling apart because of zinc pest? I don't think so. Your caviller attitude adds nothing to the discussion.

Dave 

david1 posted:

rockstars1989 posted:

No big deal run them and forget about it. Nick

Would you want the cars you have be falling apart because of zinc pest? I don't think so. Your caviller attitude adds nothing to the discussion.

Dave 

The cars are not falling apart. Lets hear what you have to offer to the so called discussion on solving this problem. Nick

Eric, to offer a solution, could the structure portion of the under car detail be made from strip and sheet styrene?...and then maybe some brass detail parts from somewhere like North West Shortline? .....I’m not saying this is excusable under any circumstances, but given the age of the cars, I don’t think your gonna see any help from the L folks....so rather than join in the frey upstairs, I’d rather offer some sort of solution....I’d start by carefully removing the best one that won’t crumble, then construct the base structure, then add brass detail parts, heck, take it further and add the hoses, and hard lines as separate detail parts made from thin solid strand copper wire......build it better than they did....Pat

Sorry to hear about the zinc pest.  That set did look nice running.  It's one you don't see running very often and was a treat to see.

On a positive note, I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to your open house.  It was great to talk to those I know as well as having the opportunity to meet new hobbyists.   Thanks again for your hospitality!

-Greg

Greg it was a pleasure to see you! I regret that I didn't have more time to talk, but as you saw I had my hands full. 

Hopefully I'll soon replacement parts for my passenger cars. 

Eric

we offer under body details for passenger cars made of pewter so there will be "no zinc rot" with these items.

I sold my MTH Railking K-4 that had never been out of the box. The buyer wanted me to test it. I removed the tender from the original untouched packing, and discovered as I removed the shell, the screw mounting holes broke off, the paint was cracking and the tender shell was bent. Additionally it was clear the screw holes in tge sheet metal chassis never lined up with the cast shell.

The tenders on that particular RailKing locomotive are well-known for zinc rot.  I believe MTH used to have a supply of replacement tender shells in stock to replace the bad ones.  It would be worth a call to Midge at MTH to find out if they still have some.

 Have the zinc pest problems multiplied since the manufacturers went to China? I'm starting to think that die-cast is on the way out given the advances in 3D metal printing. Incentives to keep die-cast quality high might slowly disappear.

So what to do in the meantime? I'm starting to think I should take casting impressions of things like sideframes. I'd be able to cast a resin replica later, should the need arise.

Imagine all those poor owners of those Die-cast ES44ac's Lionel made....

Some better start making casting molds so we can cast it all in Brass.

It is not only unfortunate, but really INEXCUSABLE, for these impure zinc alloys to exist, given today's body of metallurgical knowledge and techniques. I suspect a combination of poor or non-existant quality controls or cost cutting by using inferior materials are the culprits here!

Wow, that K-4 is heartbreaking. I would be SO disappointed to see that if it were mine... and after that emotion passed, I'd be ANGRY. Angry as can heck.

Andre

With this topic back in play, I wish to add an update to my original post. Fortunately, I was able to obtain replacements for the damaged underbody detail casting on my Lionel passenger cars from Lionel. At $10 apiece it did not break the bank and I did buy extras. It is becoming increasing difficult to obtain replacement parts for modern generation trains and I was lucky to find these parts still available.

Now if Mike Wolf would just re-introduce the P5a Boxcab and run off some spare body shells.......

Eric Hofberg

chug posted:

With this topic back in play, I wish to add an update to my original post. Fortunately, I was able to obtain replacements for the damaged underbody detail casting on my Lionel passenger cars from Lionel. At $10 apiece it did not break the bank and I did buy extras. It is becoming increasing difficult to obtain replacement parts for modern generation trains and I was lucky to find these parts still available.

Now if Mike Wolf would just re-introduce the P5a Boxcab and run off some spare body shells.......

Eric Hofberg

I have one of those affected p5a's from MTH as well. I hope the plan from MTH is to just never make these models again. I have been on "The list" at MTH for quite a while. Would be nice to hear from MTH about this. After all they did promise to replace these shells.

Laming, thanks for your empathy, but getting mad is not really going to help this situation.  I just hope that this is not something I find lurking in more of my collection.  I foolishly collected the MTH Premier Steam Locomotives when they first came out, so I have already lost a LOT of money or should i saw will lose a lot when I sell them, but is was sort of disheartening to make up my mind to start liquidating many of my Proto 1 locomotives as it is cost prohibitive to convert a  Rail King product to Proto 2 or 3, and then to find out after I had one sold, I could not deliver it.

Some years ago me and my wife bought her father a world war troop train.He never took it out of the boxes,So when he passed away we brought it home and we started to unbox them to put on shelves.One car was severily deformed and 2 other cars the trucks fell apart in my hands all from the Zinc rot crap .Owe well at least we have the memory when he first seen them in a magazine and he wanted them.Plus he loved trains and had a big collection.add on he got me into O Scale trains.So yeah it was disappointment but we got over it. so yeah it will take me along time to find  doner cars to fix.  

Miles, I find the Rail King PS-2 or -3 locomotives to be of a comparative amazing value.  For about the same cost of buying a PS up grade package and paying for it to be installed, one can purchase the complete engine with PS working.  Sweet!

Have not had the zinc pest visit as yet but keeping a watchful eye out for it.  Trucks and underbody features I could deal with, the tender shells,, not that is a deal breaker,

Tinplate Art posted:

It is not only unfortunate, but really INEXCUSABLE, for these impure zinc alloys to exist, given today's body of metallurgical knowledge and techniques. I suspect a combination of poor or non-existant quality controls or cost cutting by using inferior materials are the culprits here!

I think most folks would agree with you, train people or not. No excuse for this today, metal isn't being mixed in a back yard.

chug posted:

With this topic back in play, I wish to add an update to my original post. Fortunately, I was able to obtain replacements for the damaged underbody detail casting on my Lionel passenger cars from Lionel. At $10 apiece it did not break the bank and I did buy extras. It is becoming increasing difficult to obtain replacement parts for modern generation trains and I was lucky to find these parts still available.

Now if Mike Wolf would just re-introduce the P5a Boxcab and run off some spare body shells.......

Eric Hofberg

My worry is that the replacements are from the same batch when these things happen. Have seen great shape Prewar items begin to explode like this with no idea what finally triggered the disintegration after all these years. For this to be happening to 10 year old items is very scary.

Do those who find this acceptable believe it would be okay with the steering and suspension of autos and trucks? We saw the result of what bad material did to that Southwest jet.

Tom Tee posted:

Miles, I find the Rail King PS-2 or -3 locomotives to be of a comparative amazing value.  For about the same cost of buying a PS up grade package and paying for it to be installed, one can purchase the complete engine with PS working.  Sweet!

Have not had the zinc pest visit as yet but keeping a watchful eye out for it.  Trucks and underbody features I could deal with, the tender shells,, not that is a deal breaker,

Tom, I am not going to convert any RailKing locomotives, only the Premier ones.  What is a Proto 1 Premier Cab Forward worth?  $400.00 maybe?  And how much is a Proto 2 or 3?  I think for the large Premier locomotives, it will pay to convert them.

Miles: Definitely call Midge at MTH. At one time, MTH did have a number of replacement shells for that tender. Whether or not they still have any is another question.

BobbyD: I agree with your concern about the replacements coming from the same batch. Look carefully at them when they arrive! If you do not see any crazing, you may be alright. I suspect there may be multiple batches for that casting. The problem is VERY batch specific! Also, you MAY be able to use one of your less affected under frame castings to make an RTV mold. Then you can cast replacements in plastic. I have not tried this technique, but it does seem to be a logical possibility.

Also, the SW jet engine failure had nothing to do with zinc pest. The compressor blades are titanium. The problem was a stress fracture.

RickR: Contact Atlas. They ended up with the Weaver tooling for the troop train. I believe they had made extra frames produced to help out those with this problem.

Chris

LVHR

Funny I just saw this.  I just pulled my Lionel Classics Hiawatha out for a spin.  Sure enough the 350E has the pest.  The eccentrics are hitting on the sides and the paint has bubbles.  This is the second shell for this set, both shells have the same problem.  I looking for another shell but I don't know if I should trust them.  I'm thinking of cutting out the narrow parts and see about putting brass in the cut outs and repainting the shells.  Then I need to find eccentrics because they broke also.

Gene Anstine

I have a Lionel Classics 2-400E with no issues so far. Samhongsa, a South Korean company respected for their high quality, produced most of the Lionel Classics line for MTH, then in partnership with Lionel. Yet, there have been some zinc pest issues, such as the Hiawatha mentioned above.

lehighline posted:

 

BobbyD: 

Also, the SW jet engine failure had nothing to do with zinc pest. The compressor blades are titanium. The problem was a stress fracture.

 

Chris

LVHR

Realize it wasn't Zinc pest, I was pointing out that they don't always examine critical items really well and I doubt preventing this issue in model trains is high on the manufacturers list.

There may also be some environmental issues involved as well such as temperature and humidity conditions of storage. Also, contact with certain storage materials or packing over an extended period, which might contain deleterious chemicals.

I've been fortunate -- so far -- with all my trains, most of which are between twenty to 80 years old.  I still keep an eye on my Classics Hiawatha and 400E and so far so good.  It's a shame that some things made only relatively recently are starting to decay at such a rapid pace.  Maerklin has had similar issues with their HO trains in recent years as well, which makes me think twice about paying the often exorbitant prices for something new (regardless of brand) and then living with the notion that I may only get a few years worth of use, if even that.  

Maybe it is time to discard the zinc alloys and switch to aluminum alloy or brass castings? The added cost of a stable metal casting might well be worth it!

Would brass be a suitable casting metal?

Maybe the strength/weight ratio of other metals would be such that the thickness of the castings could be reduced, thus helping reduce the cost of the alternative metal or alloy. 

There may also be some environmental issues involved as well such as temperature and humidity conditions of storage. Also, contact with certain storage materials or packing over an extended period, which might contain deleterious chemicals.

While environmental issues could definitely accelerate the degradation process, they are unlikely to be the root cause of the problem. Having tested a few pieces for metal content, I strongly suspect the primary culprit to be contaminated source melt, specifically with high lead content. The mom and pop industries in China use whatever pot metal they find, and there is no QC. We identified the problem back in the 1930s and took steps to fix it. That apparently did not happen in China, and people over there are only now becoming aware the issue and what to do about it.

Chris

LVHR

Tinplate Art:

Maybe it is time to discard the zinc alloys and switch to aluminum alloy or brass castings? The added cost of a stable metal casting might well be worth it!

Now you're talking!  I would gladly pay more for castings that I know will not fall to dust in ten years' time.

Lehigh Line:

The mom and pop industries in China use whatever pot metal they find, and there is no QC. We identified the problem back in the 1930s and took steps to fix it. That apparently did not happen in China, and people over there are only now becoming aware the issue and what to do about it.

You're assuming that they care enough to do anything about it. 

Or that the American companies who import their goods are going to pressure them to clean up their act.  This situation will not change until the American importers get some serious pushback from us, the consumers.

I agree the root cause is contaminated alloy, especially lead. 

Our trains cost too much to have the factories playing roulette with key materials!

Tinplate Art, I think you're onto something there:  aluminum alloy might well be the ticket.  I'm sure there's a small manufacturer out there who could do it, although probably not on as large a scale as we're used to.   Then again, there are some good, mass produced fly reels machined from solid bar stock aluminum that prove pretty indestructible in environments that no self-respecting train enthusiast would dare operate!

This is not new, or as mentioned above with Maerklin, confined to O gauge, for decades ago, l got in a zamac cast HO brand then common for steam boiler castings, with the boiler warped into a hump.  This was a kit new in the box, from, what l remember as Mantua, from a now gone major New York mail order hobby source widely advertised in the magazines.  That was my last order.  What IS "zamac"? I vaguely recall that the "z" is for zinc?

In addition to the trains themselves, has anyone experienced zincpest with any of the newer accessories, i.e., cast street lamps or signals?  (May have to inspect mine closely later on....)

A study was done to determine the causes of zinc alloy corrosion in vintage Lionel Trains:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53034354.pdf

Pages 8, 9 & 10 of the report go to the heart of the matter.

The report concludes

Corrosion-induced cracking of model train zinc-aluminium die castings is caused by small amounts of impurities in the metal, notably lead, cadmium and tin. The corrosion requires moisture to initiate and progress, and is accelerated by higher temperatures. A possible countermeasure is to apply parylene coatings to suspect or slightly damaged items. This would have to be done by specialist firms.

I conclude that die casting of metal alloys for longevity items like toy trains is not a good practice. However, a cast plastic body with stamped sheet metal frame is far superior.

BOTTOM LINE: Impure alloy, moisture and heat to accelerate the disintegration process. Unsatisfactory end of story! 😐

Perhaps Zinc Pest is actually a benefit sort of like planned obsolescence for other products. We get new trains, the manufacturer makes them, and the importer gets his cut.

Automobiles cost a lot more and we don’t expect them to last for 50 years.

You're assuming that they care enough to do anything about it. 

Or that the American companies who import their goods are going to pressure them to clean up their act.  This situation will not change until the American importers get some serious push back from us, the consumers.

Agree. Push back from the consumer is required. That's why I said something to MTH at the fall York meet. I was told they were confident the issue would not repeat. But absent any actual testing or certification of the product or the melt before it gets to us the consumer, I will remain skeptical. And unfortunately for us, in many cases, it takes 5 years or more (well past the warranty period) for the issue to become apparent. So we get left holding a bag of unusable, albeit expensive, junk.

Chris

LVHR

chug posted:

With this topic back in play, I wish to add an update to my original post. Fortunately, I was able to obtain replacements for the damaged underbody detail casting on my Lionel passenger cars from Lionel. At $10 apiece it did not break the bank and I did buy extras. It is becoming increasing difficult to obtain replacement parts for modern generation trains and I was lucky to find these parts still available.

Now if Mike Wolf would just re-introduce the P5a Boxcab and run off some spare body shells.......

Eric Hofberg

While $10 per part may not break the bank, from an ethical standpoint, I think that it is unconscionable for Lionel to charge you for the part. Zinc pest is the definition of a manufacturer's defect. It is an insidious one at that, since as we know, it can take longer to manifest if the items are stored in ideal conditions. Once a batch has been identified as having the defect, the company should be recalling the entire batch, regardless of whether or not the warranty has expired. That the industry as a whole has not stepped it up and eliminated this problem shows a lack of respect for their customers.

If MTH has stepped up their quality control and worked with their manufacturers to eliminate their problem, good for them. But they still should be recalling all defective products, regardless of age. If they already have, bravo!

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

Train "collecting" became a thing in the 1950s with early Standard Gauge.  Eventually several 3rd party folks such as MEW, Henning, etc. made wheels and parts to replace the crumbling 1920s originals.  A lot of those trains are still running!  So there is hope...

On similar note the U.S.Mint has been minting cents from copper plated zinc since 1983...they do tend to rot and fall apart..... 

For these expensive "high end" frames the solution is simple. If the importers just changed over to aluminum castings they wont deteriorate. Even impure aluminum while not as strong as that made from ingots will last.

On the advice of someone here, I packed up my brand new Atlas roller bearing trucks that had zinc rot and shipped them back to Atlas. I never heard a thing. So if they won't replace those, I wouldn't expect any recalls.

Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Matt_GNo27 posted:

Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

Tinplate Art posted:

Would brass be a suitable casting metal?

No.  Requires much higher temperatures and pressures.

Lou 

BobbyD posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

All you had to do was ask and Chapel Hill sent as many washers as you requested along with the directions shown.  Not difficult to do - remove the floor, remove the truck (taking care not to lose the C-clip), place the washer in position, replace the truck and replace the floor.  I requested enough washers for the cars owned by our module group members and shared them.  John in Lansing, ILL

BobbyD posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

I had one of those early K-Line heavyweight cars catch fire, but I shut the power off before it melted the car.  However, I had no idea they were ever recalled.  The dealer I bought them from, it was a NYC coach, was present at my house when it happened, and he never told me they were recalled and I didn't get a notice.  I will take them apart and check them out if I run them again.

Are these passenger car washers still available  from anyone? Maybe a parts dealer where they could be purchased.

I have had a lot of zinc pest show up in my older trains, but I have never have a zinc penny pest.

I heard of wooden nickels, and plugged coins and slugs.

I just super glue the mess back together the best I can and look for spares.

Someday soon I hope to be able to make my own parts with 3D printing, but the two printers I have now are not up to the task.

Good News.  MTH was very responsive. I am shipping them the tender shell tomorrow and they will send me a new one.  Thank you all for the advice and help.  It is much appreciated.

Bad News.  After reading this thread, I checked my MTH engines and found that the zinc pest lives in my Rail king Pennsylvania Torpedo 4-6-2 engine.  The tender is severely warped, to the point that two of the four mounting screws sheared off.  My girl-friend (now wife) bought me this engine back in 1997 for my birthday.  I contacted MTH several months ago and found out they had a shell replacement program for this defect.  Unfortunately for me, they no longer had anymore replacement shells.  This is a major bummer. 

Rush: A bummer indeed.

Time for fellow members (including dealers) to lend a helping hand.  There's gotta be a replacement tender shell out there somewhere.

MTH should give you compensation ($$$) for your example.

From a Williams GG1 that I recently purchased. The side frames are full of cracks and the actual trucks have a few cracks in them too.

Edit to add part number: #934920 / Cab# 4920

I have an earlier Williams GG-1 (pre-Bachmann) and haven’t noticed anything similar... yet:  may have to take a closer look later this morning.  

Yikes. Talk a out a Christmas downer. Every year I set up the trains. Every year I buy more trains. This thread is the first one to have me considering running what I have and culling anything that fails. I have no confidence that anyone would develop impose or monitor any minimum standard for metal purity in toy trains. If they did, companies would still cheat and the buyer would have no recourse, especially since..... heck, they are all slowly going out of business anyway.

Rush, that’s the worst I’ve ever seen. So sorry.

Well, I looked at my Williams 2332 GG-1:  trucks are fine, but the body shell is developing fine, hairline cracks throughout.  (Looks like my 18052 Pennsylvania Torpedo is going to be the workhorse for my Madison cars in the not too distant future....)

Steve, my GG1 is the complete opposite. The body is immaculate. 3 of the 4 trucks side were broken off when it arrived. I have since JB welded as best I could and reassembled. The sideframes are a lot worse than the trucks so I may pickup some lionel side frames and fit them. I have a feeling I can get some years out of it and the seller offered to return or a substantial refund, so I kept it. I really do love the engine but probably won't be handing this one down to the kids in 30 years!

I have had to replace most of my Williams Truck side frames because of the pest   The FA2's and U33C's had all of them just crumble

Just ordered a replacement shell... I’ll definitely keep a close watch on the trucks.  (Cheaper than buying a new locomotive, but still disappointing.  Then again, it’s my first encounter with the pest in 30 years, so hopefully my luck will continue.)

@rockstars1989 posted:

The cars are not falling apart. Lets hear what you have to offer to the so called discussion on solving this problem. Nick

The underbody details are in fact crumbling due to zinc pest. Have seen it on many 18" Lionel Aluminum sets, so much so that the screws have popped out of the frames.

Same issue with the trucks on the 18"  Santa Fe Super Chief aluminum sets. All the side frames are disintegrating. Very sad that Lionel castings made this century have these issues. The only solution would be Lionel remaking the items. Ask anyone with the scale GG-1 where the trucks crumbled and they can no longer run it if they are happy.

@BobbyD posted:

Ask anyone with the scale GG-1 where the trucks crumbled and they can no longer run it if they are happy.

At least with the GG1, there is a solution to bring them back for the dead.

Henning's Trains - GG1055 Powered Truck Side Frame for Lionel GG1, 2Pcs

I was browsing Lionel PS-1 Boxcars and saw this one. I didn't know these were among the affected items. This is from 2005 I believe. I added another from 2006 below.

It sure seems like it is indeed seriously affected!

Took a closer look at my Williams 681 turbine:  everything is fine for now, although reading the comments above, it sounds as though those trucks may give me issues in the future.  Oddly enough, I’ve never faced these issues with my pre-, postwar, MPC and LTI items... yet

I bought a Southern PS-4 Pacific loco and tender (Lionel 6-11103)  from someone here on the Forum, and it was cheaper because the trucks were disintegrating. Almost sorry I did—although I display the trains only, don't run them—but here's a photo of the bits and pieces I got, below. Yuck!

What a shame. I wonder if this is just poor China quality or could this also run rampant made in USA.

I think it's tough -- if not near impossible -- to assure quality when your corporate headquarters and factory are half a world apart.  Maerklin had similar issues about 10 years ago and has since scaled back production in China, favoring instead their production facilities in Germany and Hungary.  That's not to say there haven't been some other issues, but overall I think they learned a lesson, especially where die casting is concerned.

It's a shame any way we choose to look at it.  For this reason, there are very few exceptions when it comes to my purchase of newer items.

romiller49,

Not nearly as likely to occur with state-side manufacturing. First, we went through this back in the 30s and 40s. We figured out what the problem was and how to fix it. 2nd, a lot of the metal casting houses in China rely on small mom and pop entities to supply the raw melt materials (with a lot of uncontrolled recycling) to them. They don't QC test anything! In the US, the casters typically have their own certified supply streams, and can get QC testing done as needed. Plus they are more likely to adhere to ISO or other industry standards. I know, the system is far from perfect, and bad stuff will get through, but I strongly suspect the amount will be FAR less.

Chris

LVHR

I just want to say thanks to the guys that have offered photographic images of the effected items. I have the GG1 (JLC 5-Stripe), many of the fantastic Lionel PS series cars and some (PRR "Trail Blazer" and Milwaukee Road "Hiawatha") 18 inch sets and so far, no deterioration has been found.

I'm hoping the problem is isolated, but I suspect it is not.

I don't have much Weaver or Atlas, but I have had crumbling trucks on the Weaver and so far the Atlas cars are fine.

MTH has been a bit of a problem as it was not just zinc issues, but also the warped plastic shells (another thread) but I think I caught the problem in time, at least before any damage was done.

Charlie

Charlie

I have a number of these engines and cars and HAVE NOT experienced any ZINC Pest issues.

However, if the issue is in ONE model it's likely pervasive because the material batching wasn't changed for me.

It is just a matter of time until it appears. The only answer is for manufacturers to list defective and potentially defective engines, cars and specific parts so we can all know it, avoid it or accept it.

I have not seen a compiled list just occasional postings.

From what I have been able to see so far with the Lionel PS-1 boxcars, it's either a pretty narrow time frame (2005-2006) or enough time hasn't yet passed for it to show up beyond that. I have about 20 of them so I'm hoping it's the former.

Morning Guys:

I bought a "new old stock" Williams 888281 U205H Chessie U33C diesel loco from a guy in the States (I live in Australia) and when it finally arrived, all of the side frames were broken off and had crumbled into small pieces in the Styrofoam inner cradle box. Zinc Pest strikes again!!!!!

Fortunately I was able to purchase new replacement side frames from Williams, and then wait for them to be sent out to me. When I received them, I found a guy who lives close to me to 3D print new plastic side frames, using the new spare die-cast frames as the master - lefts and rights.

I also got him to 3D print the original front and rear pilots, as I suspected they also had the early signs of the "dreaded pest" around the mounting holes.

The guy had a bit of trouble getting the fine detail to show up (wheel bearing box bolts) and the thin extension for the brake shoes tended to sag under the weight of the molten plastic, but he finally got it right after a few tries, and allowing more time between layers, and I think they are pretty good. Painted them in the correct blue color (along with the new pilots) and installed them, and it is hard to tell the difference from 3ft. Remember, this is not scale 3 rail!!!!!

Anyway, each pair of side frames cost me Aus $35.00, and the pilots also cost Aus. $35.00 each, for a grand total of Aus. $105.00 all up (approx $75.00 US).

Just thought I'd share my experience with the dreaded "Zinc Pest" in the one and only affected loco I have, and how I believe I have overcome any long-term issues with possibly poorly cast replacement side frames that may do the same thing in a couple of years time.

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

After following all of the recent posts, how are the older brass models that were Made in Japan holding up today, compared to all the die cast metal and plastic crap that continues to blow up and fall apart before one's very eyes?

Note: I am aware of excessive foam damage to brass models as a result of the foam not having been replaced in the original boxes over a period of time while they had been stored.

My recent and aged brass is unaffected.  Gunner is fixing my Lionel GG-1 thanks to the investment of Henning's trains making the side Foam does not touch my models.  Tissue paper only.

FWIW, I find a lot of old brass that's falling apart at the solder joints.

This thread is really hard to watch. I've seen zinc pest with most of the major train makers new and old. If the mixture and casting temperatures are not right, it sets up sites for future corrosion. You can go back to Ives tenders in the late 1920's, most of anything that McCoy made with zinc alloy castings, and now examples from all the major train makers, MTH, Atlas, Lionel, Williams, KLine

Jim

Let's face it, it's a casting process that unless carefully controlled will result in a limited lifetime.  We've known this for decades.

Not just limited to Pre War or Modern Era.  I have had to rebuild four Postwar Lionel Turbines.  Here is the latest, from a month ago, a 682.  By far the worst zinc pested frame/chassis I have seen.

Update on my Williams GG-1:  after ordering a replacement shell, I received an email this morning notifying me my purchase was refunded.  A fresh look at the parts site now shows all GG-1 shells as sold out.  (Fortunately, my Williams 681 shows no signs of the pest... yet.). Time to look for a suitable GG-1 replacement