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The soft keys are right on the app, plus all of the ones in the "more" list so you don't have to move the sounds/features around to get them onto the primary soft keys. Also the names are more descriptive than the three-letter acronyms. I haven't used my remote to operate trains at the club since the Premium app was released. We're looking at buying some cheap tablets to replace the club remotes, relegating the remotes to being tethered to the test/setup track.

Last edited by AGHRMatt

Right now I run three remotes off of one TIU.  If I go to WIFI tablet can I run three tablets off one TIU?

(My grandsons like to run trains; what boy doesn't at their young age?)  So those two each get a remote loaded with only their loco and I get one, too.   The loops are separate and everybody's happy.  Will we still be happy with WIFI?  Or will grandpa be cussin?

Last edited by Former Member

The DCS remote was pretty awesome when it came out well before Apple made the first true smart phone.  Times have changes and many people requested an update to the DCS remote. Well here it is and the smart devices today are better than anything MTH could have produced in house.  Not to mention we as users now have more control over what kind of device we use and how big it is!

The DCS remote is expensive for MTH to produce and would be even more expensive to update with a newer version. Apps on smart devices are cheap to update and allow for a very robust & changeable user interface. 

While the DCS remote is good enough for many of the older operators, attracting a younger crowd with the "old school" remote is nearly impossible. It looks like MTH is going all in with Wi-Fi app control for everything and phasing out dedicate remote systems.  Let the user provide the remote of their choice to run their trains.

I learned a long time ago not to fight progress.  When I was a kid we had a party line telephone and I can remember when we got our first TV; a little black and white job and we only had three channels available, which signed off at around 11PM.  So I'm willing to make the changeover to WIFI.  I just don't want to be in the group that has to work all the bugs out.   And the DCS Wifi has had some bugs.  So I will probably wait a few years before going whole hog on this new technology.  I'll let you gung ho guys fight the gremlins.

If we're going all WIFI why not make the system operable from a laptop?  Is that really more complicated technology than using a tablet?  Or does DCS Wifi already allow you to install it and run it on a laptop?  It just makes sense to me that if you are going to modernize the interface, really modernize it, and allow the trains to be run off a laptop or desktop computer.

Waddy posted:

If we're going all WIFI why not make the system operable from a laptop?  Is that really more complicated technology than using a tablet?  Or does DCS Wifi already allow you to install it and run it on a laptop?  It just makes sense to me that if you are going to modernize the interface, really modernize it, and allow the trains to be run off a laptop or desktop computer.

In a way this is a bit a of a step backwards as laptops and desktops are much less portable than a tablet or the original DCS remote. I suspect there is much less demand for PC control.

But ask and you shall receive!!! Check out this website: DCS Control from a PC

I also wonder why we're stuck with such an antiquated sound file system.  Why should I have to take the locomotive to my computer and hook everything up?  The locomotive already gets signals while it's sitting on the track.  If DCS Wifi could be run from a laptop then why not be able to switch out sound files while it's sitting there on the track.

And why couldn't MTH have a laptop trouble diagnosis program while they're at it?  One we could run to figure out what's wrong.  My car has such a system.

I think incorporating laptops (and desktops) into their system could make lots of improvements possible.

H1000 posted:
Waddy posted:

If we're going all WIFI why not make the system operable from a laptop?  Is that really more complicated technology than using a tablet?  Or does DCS Wifi already allow you to install it and run it on a laptop?  It just makes sense to me that if you are going to modernize the interface, really modernize it, and allow the trains to be run off a laptop or desktop computer.

In a way this is a bit a of a step backwards as laptops and desktops are much less portable than a tablet or the original DCS remote. I suspect there is much less demand for PC control.

But ask and you shall receive!!! Check out this website: DCS Control from a PC

Thanks for the link; I'll look at it later.  Many of the laptops today are quite small, yet powerful.  Portability isn't the issue anymore with computers.  I suspect if the laptop DCS program offered some real improvements, like the ones I mentioned, there would be plenty of demand.

Waddy posted:

I also wonder why we're stuck with such an antiquated sound file system.  Why should I have to take the locomotive to my computer and hook everything up?  The locomotive already gets signals while it's sitting on the track.  If DCS Wifi could be run from a laptop then why not be able to switch out sound files while it's sitting there on the track.

And why couldn't MTH have a laptop trouble diagnosis program while they're at it?  One we could run to figure out what's wrong.  My car has such a system.

I think incorporating laptops (and desktops) into their system could make lots of improvements possible.

I also wonder why we're stuck with such an antiquated sound file system

The sound file system is actually pretty complex, The website provided above also has an entire section (with free software) that can playback entire MTH sound files on your computer, modify these sound files with clips from other MTH sound files or your own custom sounds. It even provides instructions on how to add a quillable whistle to engines that don't have from the factory.

 

Why should I have to take the locomotive to my computer and hook everything up?  The locomotive already gets signals while it's sitting on the track.  If DCS Wifi could be run from a laptop then why not be able to switch out sound files while it's sitting there on the track.

I'm a little confused with this statement, run the wifi app on a laptop so that you can take the laptop to your layout and program a sound file into the engine. That's how it works now with the DCS Loader. I take my laptop to the layout, I put the engine on segment of track that is isolated from everything else (Programming track), and I can upload new sound files into an engine from my laptop. Are you requesting that the DCS APP upload a new file to an engine from a smart device directly? This is possible, and give it time it may happen but I don't think it's high on the priority list at MTH.

 

And why couldn't MTH have a laptop trouble diagnosis program while they're at it?  One we could run to figure out what's wrong.  My car has such a system.

This would require an extensive amount of additional sensors and electronics incorporated into the current Protosound 3.0 system. The diagnostic system in your car you are referring to is called OBDII and it was required on all cars 1996 and newer.  This system added numerous amounts of additional sensors and electronics to cars. I do agree that it does make troubleshooting a lot easier on a car but again I don't think there is enough room for the extra electronics inside of an engine to support such a system in an O Gauge engine. Maybe someday, but I won't hold breath.

 

I think incorporating laptops (and desktops) into their system could make lots of improvements possible.

I think that MTH has already done a pretty good job of doing this and regularly improves the software (DCS Loader) as needed.

The link does have several additions to what DCS already does, primarily with sound file manipulation.  However, we run our trains on one system, tablet WIFI, yet have to hook up the laptop to change sound files.  Why not change sound files directly from the tablet (probably not even possible) or better yet, let us run the whole thing off the laptop.  Simplify the process. 

The model trains wouldn't need as complex a system as the OBDII in our vehicles.  There is lots of information already flowing through the electronics that could give us information if the system was set up to process it.

That's not to say I'm unhappy at all with MTH.  I run them exclusively.  But I chose them for their simplicity of operation; no programming skills needed.  Just the right amount of complexity for my tastes.  But if they are committed to modernizing their system, and adding complexity, then why not go all out, and make it available on computers as well.

Why not change sound files directly from the tablet (probably not even possible) or better yet, let us run the whole thing off the laptop.  Simplify the process. 

Think of the sound file like firmware for an Internet router. Upgrading wirelessly is generally not recommended due to the slightess interruption in the signal could cause serious problems.  My home router won't allow me to upgrade firmware through a wireless connection and requires that all firmware updates be performed through a direct wired connection.  This is not to say that someday MTH may incorporate this into the APP but for now they are focus on building an App that performs as close to the DCS remote as possible and not adding much new functionality (other than Legacy support). 

The model trains wouldn't need as complex a system as the OBDII in our vehicles.  There is lots of information already flowing through the electronics that could give us information if the system was set up to process it.

I think you are underestimating what it would take to make this work. What kind of troubleshooting responses would you like the system to report?

Also, if you are looking to run the app on a laptop it can be done using an Android emulator. Check Ray's Electric Trainworks video: DCS App on laptop

 

I will hang on to my remote,just like my gun.

They will have to pry it from my cold,dead hands,to quote Charlton Heston!!!

I spend enough time everyday on that darn phone,being radiated by it,messaged,texted,e-mailed,notified, and updated!!!

When it's time to run trains,I want to be as far away from tech as I can get.I even run conventionally still most of the time.Kind of a "hands on' experience,and much less trouble.Smelling Smoke Pellets.AHHHH!!!!

When I do run MTH or Lionel trains with the remote,I already feel nervous enough,anticipating a board might go out,that I may see "Engine Not ON track",when I **** well know it's right there ON TRACK!!

The only advantage I see in these new trains are the WONDERFUL amount of detail that goes into the Premium items, fabulous clouds of chuffing,syncronized SMOKE!!,The great Sounds that Can pretty much be duplicated with a Railsounds boxcar or tender,and I never was a fan of low speed running,until I watched and heard that CHUFF and watched that smoke Shoot up out of the stack,in perfect time with the drivers!!!!

It's like sweet music to me!!! But I get all this right from my 80's "TV"remote,that the DCS remote reminds me of!!!!

I never wanted to be tracked,followed,liked or friended by that **** phone to begin with.

If it wasn't for my job,I would not even have an iphone!!!

Makes it alot harder to just "get Lost",like back when everybody did not know your EXACT location,24/7. And everyone gets so offended if you don't answer their text within 10 minutes.Geez.

Are we all this important??I'm certainly am not.

I remember when only Doctors had these things.Now we're all "ON CALL"

What happened to hangin' out with your buddies,and just gettin'away from everything for a couple hours here and there?,Givin' the barmaid(now alcohol service specialist) ten bucks to tell your wife she had not seen you at that club tonight?

 I miss the Glass Phone Booths,(and the drive up pay phones that once were around) I realize time marches on,but for me I was and am happy with my DCS remote,and WILL NOT run any trains from an app.

Train time is time to have a beverage(or three),forget the rat race and highball down the mainline,pressing that horn/whistle button from my transformer or my remote.  I will have 5 of them stashed away,just in case something goes wrong with my main remote or backup remote.

From my Cold,Dead Hands.No WiFi for this guy.-Kenny 

Funny you should mention Ray.  He and I are good friends.  We live only a few miles from each other.  I've been down in his train room/workshop many times.  He has some very nice G scale stuff.  He and I have discussed many of the possibilities for WIFI running of trains and many of the things I mentioned here today.  Myself, I like to keep it simple, and I'm happy with just a remote.   So for me it's all academic.  I do think MTH will eventually incorporate lots more versatility into their system.   Someday we will run everything off a computer tied into the TIU and AIU.   

Kenny, I hear ya'.  Technology has it's place but it can be very invasive.  But then again, it has it's place.  I'm using it now to message with you.  What I like are having options.  So the remote is "expensive" to produce.  They also charge quite a bit for it.  There will always be a market for simple.   There are still people who make buggy whips.   There should be a provision for those who want to keep using the remote.  Just like they still make conventional transformers with levers and buttons for people who still want to run conventional.  I don't run conventional, and power with a simple transformer, but I understand those  who still want to run conventional.  My two trucks are stick shift; nobody drives those anymore either.  But that's good in a way; less likely to be stolen !!  Nothing wrong with being old school.

Yep I agree, I think the computer does tap the operating method in a whole new way that can provide a robust interface. When I use the RTC program I can have engine controls readily available for many different engines on the screen at the same time.  This makes running multiple engines on the same main line pretty easy and less stressful.

As for simplicity, I think the many will still opt for an app as it tailored to a device without having to understand any complex computer jargon for the initial setup.  I have seen many households that pay for internet service yet don't have a single computer in the house. The downside to laptops is I haven't seen anything under 8 or 9 inches in size that is a mainstream product. I'm not sure we ever will because running Windows on a 5 inch screen doesn't sound like fun. 

Ultimately the sky is the limit, Computers and apps bust the possibilities wide open and we realize that anything is possible with these technologies. We might just have to wait a little longer for it to happen!

I can see a time in the not so distant future where the concept of a TIU is obsolete. Why not put the wifi hardware in the trains themselves and have them connect to the home network and have the app talk directly to the trains? Of course that is yesterday's technology itself. MTH needs to do some more forward thinking. Tablet, iphones and handheld devices are also going the way of the dinosaur. Someday Mike himself will drive to my house drill a hole in the back of my head and insert a bio-port into my central nervous system. I would just have to think the commands and the trains will perform it. That is phase one. Phase two is where the train layout and trains a virtualized. To play trains I would just put on a VR head set and control the layout of my dreams. Phase three is where Mike even virtualizes me. He would download my soul into a computer, discard my body and have virtual Frank play in a simulated world. Truth be told, I think he may have already done that.

 

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

2) You can run a program on most Windows PCs that allow you to run Android apps on the PC.  Then you run the MTH app in the Android emulator program.  Voila! DCS wifi control from a PC!

Google search: "You can run Android apps on a Windows PC or laptop using an Android emulator app. BlueStacks is one solution. YouWave and KoPlayer are alternatives for emulating Android in Windows."

3) I understand technology and all that, and embrace it, but.... The ability to change speed, and other parameters on a DCS remote "by touch" without looking at the control is a valuable feature of the current handheld remote.  On our modular layout, I can talk to people and adjust parameters on my trains (speed, blow whistles, uncouple, direction) without having to look down at a screen to see (precisely) where to put my finger for each command!

Just my 3 cents!

ed

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

eddiem posted:

2) You can run a program on most Windows PCs that allow you to run Android apps on the PC.  Then you run the MTH app in the Android emulator program.  Voila! DCS wifi control from a PC!

Theres a whole LINUX Distro that runs as Android

http://www.android-x86.org/

Sounds like it does support PlayStore

But thats the long way around for most folks - A dedicated piece of PC Software - as the "master" that all wireless units sync to would be nice.

clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

I agree completely.  I have gone back to using my remote because I was spending more time looking at my tablet than at my trains.

Here in Los Angeles at AGHR, we run 5 TIU's all hooked up with WIFI. After getting Legacy to work on the DCS premium app, I have used it exclusively. Yes, it does have some hiccups, however, this is definitely the way to run trains. The only downside I see at the moment is that it's a drain on my cell phone battery. However, I also bring my Ipad and have a mophie for phone charging. I have two broken DCS remotes with no intention of fixing them.

Jeff in LA

 

clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

You make a good point - Im a sound engineer - and I've experienced the same feeling when running a live show with my tablet.

My mixer has both physical faders and wi-fi control - but when using wi-fi - you always have to be looking at the tablet/phone when making adjustments - compared to using the physical fader where I can push the fader with my finger - and pull it back without looking. Tablet has the advantage of being able to move around the room - which is important for fine tuning sound - but not so important running trains.

I think as these systems evolve we'll see physical train controllers that have more feel - and we'll just use the tablets/phones for displays.

Unfortunately - locomotive throttles aren't the most glamorous things in the world - but a physical control working with the digital/wi-fi would be nice.

Last edited by Former Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Unless they suddenly redesigned the WiFi unit, yes.  We had a big discussion about this very fact when the WiFi was coming out.

and if you all need clarity that guns is correct please go to mth website and download the user manual for the wiu it states it clearly.

ill stick to a transformer if it breaks its fixable amazing how old redundant technology still works.

to each there own good luck!

I'm getting my popcorn ready for years of entertainment 

Roving Sign posted:
.....................................

I think as these systems evolve we'll see physical train controllers that have more feel - and we'll just use the tablets/phones for displays.

...............................

Who is likely to invest in the technology/tooling  to produce such hardware?  MTH is specifically trying to get out of doing hardware by using the app for the controller.

I hardly can imagine them or some other third party investing to go back to hardware when it seems a significant portion of the train population (at least statistically, of the commenters here) seems to embrace the app.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681
Dave45681 posted:
Roving Sign posted:
.....................................

I think as these systems evolve we'll see physical train controllers that have more feel - and we'll just use the tablets/phones for displays.

...............................

Who is likely to invest in the technology/tooling  to produce such hardware?  MTH is specifically trying to get out of doing hardware by using the app for the controller.

I hardly can imagine them or some other third party investing to go back to hardware when it seems a significant portion of the train population (at least statistically, of the commenters here) seems to embrace the app.

-Dave

These kind of controllers are simple encoders and would work with the app software. Instead of pushing the arrow on your app - you'll grab a handle or something and turn it - and see the result on your app screen - For people who prefer the tactile control of a conventional transformer - I think it represents a best of both worlds approach.

eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

2) You can run a program on most Windows PCs that allow you to run Android apps on the PC.  Then you run the MTH app in the Android emulator program.  Voila! DCS wifi control from a PC!

Google search: "You can run Android apps on a Windows PC or laptop using an Android emulator app. BlueStacks is one solution. YouWave and KoPlayer are alternatives for emulating Android in Windows."

3) I understand technology and all that, and embrace it, but.... The ability to change speed, and other parameters on a DCS remote "by touch" without looking at the control is a valuable feature of the current handheld remote.  On our modular layout, I can talk to people and adjust parameters on my trains (speed, blow whistles, uncouple, direction) without having to look down at a screen to see (precisely) where to put my finger for each command!

Just my 3 cents!

ed

1) It would be logical that a device like this is in the works. If MTH doesn't offer the DCS remote, why buy a TIU with a  900MHz receiver that can't be used.

2) Agreed, a bit clunky at times but it works. Also check out what Mark has done with the FREE RTC program that allows PC control of your layout, I think you may like it better: DCS Control from a PC

3) Agreed. I love the app and the smooth interface, but I always look back at the early YouTube videos of Mike Wolfe and his 10" iPad and noticed how unwieldy that looked and operated. I am finding though that as I use the app more on an old Motorola smart phone with 4.3" screen, I am getting more comfortable with single handed operation and changing between menus and manipulating accessories and switches is faster and easier with the app. For me, the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to the app over the remote.

Roving Sign posted:
clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

You make a good point - Im a sound engineer - and I've experienced the same feeling when running a live show with my tablet.

My mixer has both physical faders and wi-fi control - but when using wi-fi - you always have to be looking at the tablet/phone when making adjustments - compared to using the physical fader where I can push the fader with my finger - and pull it back without looking. Tablet has the advantage of being able to move around the room - which is important for fine tuning sound - but not so important running trains.

I think as these systems evolve we'll see physical train controllers that have more feel - and we'll just use the tablets/phones for displays.

Unfortunately - locomotive throttles aren't the most glamorous things in the world - but a physical control working with the digital/wi-fi would be nice.

So how about a device (like a play station controller) that connects to your phone/tablet (Wired or Wireless) that can be setup to control specific functions on your DCS app? Kind of plays into the idea that Tablet will just be a display.

Or how about voice commands to control your trains using Siri or Google Speak.

The sky is limit with this technology.

rboatertoo posted:

I was just looking at getting the wifi adapter this morning on an advertisers Memorial day sale.

 I have 5 tiu's, do I need five wifi adapters?  If I do I'll be sticking with the handheld remotes until the price drops substantially!!!! 

Yep.

Why would you think the WIU price will drop?  In the history of the DCS hardware, it has only gone up (though not often I will admit), never gone down.  Why would the WIU be any different?  (In fairness the Legacy hardware hasn't dropped in price either).

The only train related tech I recall effectively going down in price was 20 years ago when Lionel first offered the combined Command Base and Remote for TMCC (previously you had to buy each component separately, most likely due to the evolution where the original Power Masters and remote came out first, followed by the command base a bit later).  I think the pricing on that combined offering was probably intended as a loss leader though to get people to adopt the tech at that time (and it probably worked! )

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681
H1000 posted:
Roving Sign posted:
clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

You make a good point - Im a sound engineer - and I've experienced the same feeling when running a live show with my tablet.

My mixer has both physical faders and wi-fi control - but when using wi-fi - you always have to be looking at the tablet/phone when making adjustments - compared to using the physical fader where I can push the fader with my finger - and pull it back without looking. Tablet has the advantage of being able to move around the room - which is important for fine tuning sound - but not so important running trains.

I think as these systems evolve we'll see physical train controllers that have more feel - and we'll just use the tablets/phones for displays.

Unfortunately - locomotive throttles aren't the most glamorous things in the world - but a physical control working with the digital/wi-fi would be nice.

So how about a device (like a play station controller) that connects to your phone/tablet (Wired or Wireless) that can be setup to control specific functions on your DCS app? Kind of plays into the idea that Tablet will just be a display.

Or how about voice commands to control your trains using Siri or Google Speak.

The sky is limit with this technology.

For sure - these new systems are in their infancy - once there are a substantial number users - things will really start happening.

I maintain - MTH is making a BIG PLAY for the conventional market with the new DCS Explorer - They want bring in as many conventional runners - and newbies to the MTH digital ecosystem. LIONEL is on the wrong track and has left the door WIDE open for MTH.

They got me - preordered the DCS Explorer!

Last edited by Former Member
Roving Sign posted:
I maintain - MTH is making a BIG PLAY for the conventional market with the new DCS Explorer - They want bring in as many conventional runners - and newbies to the MTH digital ecosystem. LIONEL is on the wrong track and has left the door WIDE open for MTH.

They got me - preordered the DCS Explorer!

Well, if that is their plan they are losing me. Give me tactile controller any day. When my DCS remote goes belly up I will be looking for a couple of Post War ZWs. Whistle, smoke, and chuff is all I need. K.I.S.S.

 

Pete

Norton posted:
Roving Sign posted:
I maintain - MTH is making a BIG PLAY for the conventional market with the new DCS Explorer - They want bring in as many conventional runners - and newbies to the MTH digital ecosystem. LIONEL is on the wrong track and has left the door WIDE open for MTH.

They got me - preordered the DCS Explorer!

Well, if that is their plan they are losing me. Give me tactile controller any day. When my DCS remote goes belly up I will be looking for a couple of Post War ZWs. Whistle, smoke, and chuff is all I need. K.I.S.S.

 

Pete

The electronics in these engines by any manufacture have remove your level KISS, for reliability and troubleshooting side of things.

The Z4000 would be a better option. MTH hasn't mention anything about discontinuing the Z4000 commander remote! (Z4000 Remote commander)

H1000 posted:
Norton posted:
Roving Sign posted:
I maintain - MTH is making a BIG PLAY for the conventional market with the new DCS Explorer - They want bring in as many conventional runners - and newbies to the MTH digital ecosystem. LIONEL is on the wrong track and has left the door WIDE open for MTH.

They got me - preordered the DCS Explorer!

Well, if that is their plan they are losing me. Give me tactile controller any day. When my DCS remote goes belly up I will be looking for a couple of Post War ZWs. Whistle, smoke, and chuff is all I need. K.I.S.S.

 

Pete

The electronics in these engines by any manufacture have remove your level KISS, for reliability and troubleshooting side of things.

The Z4000 would be a better option. MTH hasn't mention anything about discontinuing the Z4000 commander remote! (Z4000 Remote commander)

I have been designing stuff like this for nearly 50 years with particular effort on the human interface. Making it easy for non professionals to use my devices. The electronics don't bother me. Existing handhelds can be used without looking at them. Touch screens are a big step backwards.

Pete

If you are using an Apple device there is no need to look at the screen:
clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying 

 

 

 

Proto 3 can be run by blue tooth and yet from what I have read not one person has brought that up. 

No need for any extra equipment to run trains just the blue tooth app.

It looks like  the dcs explorer which will be in every train set, so is the Bluetooth based?

if not what does the dcs explorer really do? 

 

ChooChoo1972 posted:
If you are using an Apple device there is no need to look at the screen:
clem k posted:

I do a lot of switching and do the Inglenook puzzle a lot.

I'm trying to like the app  But I find myself looking more at the iPhone instead of the train Watching what my finger is doing instead of the locomotive, maybe when I get my iPad mini it will be different.  If not then I will stock up on remotes (have four now) and spare thumb wheels. Also having control problems I didn't have before, so maybe even get rid of 6.0  Meanwhile I'm still trying

???? Try again...

The operating systems of most Android and i-type devices have built-in accessibility apps, with names such as explore-by-touch and talkback, that support use by people with visual impairments.   Unfortunately, the user interface of the DCS app is only partially compatible with these accessibility apps.  (I tried it.)  Even for the cases in which the DCS app supports the accessibility apps, it can take so long to find and execute the desired function that reliable train operation (and crash avoidance) becomes impossible.  Bottom line is that, even with the apps that support vision-free operation of Android and i-type devices, you can't run the DCS app without looking at the device -- something that is definitely not true with the old fashioned remote.

H1000 posted:

The electronics in these engines by any manufacture have remove your level KISS, for reliability and troubleshooting side of things.

The Z4000 would be a better option. MTH hasn't mention anything about discontinuing the Z4000 commander remote! (Z4000 Remote commander)

It's been a while, so maybe you missed it?  MTH did their final run of these a few years ago.  It doesn't mean you might not find one in a store, but it's in the past in terms of manufacturing.  Parts obsolescence.

This was actually discussed in a thread a few days ago.  See here.

H1000 posted:

I do stand corrected. The last news that I heard was that MTH discontinued the 40-4002 which is the receiver by itself without the remote but was continuing to build the 40-4001 which is both parts. I must be mistaken on the news that I heard.

That is a huge issue. How will the MTH WiFi run these? Many use them to control transformer voltage.

I agree, it leaves a big hole in remote control of conventional trains that MTH use to fill nicely. We all know that a TIU has the variable channels to help fill this gap, but it's a little overkill for the job when an operator only runs conventional and wants a remote.

The Receiver has 9 pin serial port and MTH never really explained it's true purpose why. It may be the key to the puzzle for a hack.

BobbyD,

That is a huge issue. How will the MTH WiFi run these? Many use them to control transformer voltage.

This point has been made with MTH. They are aware of the problem for some of us operators who rely on under-the-table placement of the Z4000.

Unfortunately, the DCS App cannot operate the Z4000 remotely without the introduction of new hardware. The Z4000 receiver module talks 900 MHz (like the TIU and DCS Remote) while the WIU and smart devices talk 2.4 GHz.

Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

Then what is it? Seems its being described as TIU and WIU in one box - comes with the new starter sets.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

Who said it was a TIU replacement? Its new product aimed at the conventional market - a brilliant move by MTH.

Roving Sign posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

Then what is it? Seems its being described as TIU and WIU in one box - comes with the new starter sets.

You might have answered your own question... comes with the new starter sets.

MTH hasn't released a starter set with a TIU and remote to date yet.

The DCS explorer will be an introductory device, and as I understand it will lack many of the advance features of the TIU.

Check out the latest DCS User Group meeting minutes, there was a lot more information provided about the DCS Explorer.

Roving Sign posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

Who said it was a TIU replacement? Its new product aimed at the conventional market - a brilliant move by MTH.

Look at what was quoted by you and answer your question for yourself!  You are the one that just offered it up as the combined TIU and WIU, not me.   If you're going to argue, at least know what you're arguing about!

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

That's not even close to a TIU with WiFi, it's a one channel unit.  If that is the TIU replacement, we truly are taking giant steps to the rear!

Who said it was a TIU replacement? Its new product aimed at the conventional market - a brilliant move by MTH.

Look at what was quoted by you and answer your question for yourself!  You are the one that just offered it up as the combined TIU and WIU, not me.   If you're going to argue, at least know what you're arguing about!

Can you be a little more specific - I have no idea what you are trying to say...nor am I arguing.

If its not a TIU and WIU in one - what is it?

I understand its not going to be full fledged DCS system - but a nice entry point - and in fact a TIU and WIU in one...functionally speaking - and uses the same apps as the full DCS WIU.

I never called it a "replacement" for the TIU. It appears the existing products (sans handheld) will continue as the core product - and the DCS Explorer will serve as a conduit to a full fledged DCS setup.

What am I missing?

We've frozen our DCS at Release 4.3, and have  kept the Big Red Wheel version of TMCC.

Since then, no software conflicts/problems/debugging sessions, etc. 

A pleasure to not be in WiFi Land, nor any intention to move beyond our handheld controllers, nor upgrade either system again.

We've stopped purchasing locomotives, having about 70+ of them in various flavors, and hundreds of freight and passenger cars, and seeing nothing notable for the Northwest in recent catalogs, only ordering the switcher for next year in SP&S livery from Lionel.  It will be the only Legacy engine on the layout, and probably will remain so, running under original TMCC only.

Done with purchasing I think, now concentrating on putting all the goodies etc on the layout bones, and putting the final trackwork in place (a car repair shop lead and tracks, and the industrial island in the center of the layout.

None of the three grandsons are interested in trains, toys or otherwise, and live on their iPad handheld things.

Grandma will sell it all when I die, move to Italy, and marry some 30-year-old Italian stud I imagine, and buy a Porsche, in all likely-hood.

I'm in DCC, and throttles that you always have to look at to operate are not fun, you spend more time staring at the cell phone screen than watching and enjoying your trains.

I do large scale outdoors, and color phone screens are not worth a crap in the sun.

Pretty soon, running DCS will be like watching couples at a restaurant, everyone staring at their cell phone.

Greg

I love using my hand helds, DCS & Legacy. Never used blue tooth and at home, WiFi can be a bit finicky at times, especially with multiple devices. Excuse me for sounding ignorant, but I really don't see the advantage to WiFi, for running trains. Is it an attempt to lure a younger, device savvy crowd? Once I had DCS up and running, I never ran conventionally again. I guess, maybe that's what will happen using WiFi. I doubt it with me.

I'm starting to feel like the guy who only runs conventionally because he doesn't want to invest in the new technology, or has to learn something too complicated to enjoy the benefits. Am I alone? Am I missing something?

Some of the previous replies to this thread mention that, you spend more time looking at your device, than watching your trains. That doesn't sound like fun.

Roving Sign posted:
I never called it a "replacement" for the TIU. It appears the existing products (sans handheld) will continue as the core product - and the DCS Explorer will serve as a conduit to a full fledged DCS setup.

 

What am I missing?

The mind boggles.   If you didn't say it was a replacement, what were you trying to say below?  Those were your words, how else could they be interpreted?  The TIU is a 4-channel device, however you equated it to the DCS Explorer, which is clearly a much less capable device.

If that's not what you mean, maybe more care in selecting your replies?

 

Roving Sign posted:
eddiem posted:

Three comments:

1) If MTH goes only wifi, then they should come out with a single wifi unit that is a combined WIU and TIU, at a price better than the current combined price of these two wifi-required items!

Coming in November - the DCS Explorer

http://mthtrains.com/50-1035

 

Just noticed a recent Post, Connecting LCS WiFi to a Home Network, I didn't read word for word but I'll admit, as I mentioned above, I'm not sold, or even interested in WiFi.

I also just watched a video by a member here, Adam Fischer, trying to create a lash-up, and having difficulty using the MTH app.

I'm sorry, I don't use apps, I only use my iPhone for communication and watching videos of my Grandson.

I guess I'll pass on the WiFi. Time to buy a couple of DCS handhelds to hold in reserve, along with my extra VCR's and DVD players!

Clem,

Is it possible to go backwards on the upgrade (downgrade)  ?

Sure, except it's a bad idea.

It won't fix any problems that you're experiencing and may introduce some new problems due to bugs in 4.30 that were fixed in 5.0 and 6.0. Also, you can't use WiFi in 4.30.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, mine is that there is no good reason to go back to DCS 4.30. Whatever problems one may be encountering are almost certainly not due to the DCS 6.0 software.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz

Just noticed a recent Post, Connecting LCS WiFi to a Home Network, I didn't read word for word but I'll admit, as I mentioned above, I'm not sold, or even interested in WiFi.

Post that on the Legacy Forum, where it belongs, after you do read it "word-for-word", so that you understand it.

I also just watched a video by a member here, Adam Fischer, trying to create a lash-up, and having difficulty using the MTH app.

Read Adam's last post on that thread.

Now that he has loaded DCS 6.0 in his TIU, which is a stated requirement for the Premier version of the DCS App, he's running lashups just fine. His only issue is that the lashups are missing their soft keys, a bug in the DCS App of which MTH is aware.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz

Re: Bluetooth.  It is my understanding that all Lionel locos (Legacy, Lionchief,  Lionchief Plus) will be coming in the future with Bluetooth.  The Lionel universal remote has Bluetooth built in for about $40 street price,  so those who prefer a physical remote, but don't want wi-fi, a Legacy base or TIU can use a physical remote for basic command control of all these products.  Inexpensive and simple, it seems to me. 

To me, the Explorer seems a step in the wrong direction, or no particular direction.  Not as capable as a TIU, but more expensive than Bluetooth.  Can you operate the Explorer with the DCS remote or is a tablet/smartphone the only option for controlling the Explorer? If so,  sort of neither fish nor fowl perhaps?  Leaving those who prefer the option of some sort of physical remote out in the cold?

I get it. Just like the guy who only runs conventional because it's starting to get over his head, right now WiFi control is not for me. I like devices that have specific purposes. Maybe I'm alone, so be it.

Multi tasking, all in one entertainment systems, great! If that's what your into. Can I text, or call my family while I'm running my trains on my iPhone? I'm for any advancement that will help draw new members into our hobby, if it does

It feels like freezing some operators out and forcing them out of there comfort zone.

I know I'm running off track with my next statement, but it's bad enough I'm afraid to run my older PS2 engines for fear that the electronics will fail. It's happened 3 times in a year before I started to see the threads on this problem. I only run recent equipment or at least swap out the batteries.

I only hope that repairs for damaged handhelds, as well as software upgrades, will be available long after the remotes are discontinued.

OK, 2nd try, if you are using an Apple device you do not have to look at the screen:
 
 
 
david1 posted:

Proto 3 can be run by blue tooth and yet from what I have read not one person has brought that up. 

No need for any extra equipment to run trains just the blue tooth app.

It looks like  the dcs explorer which will be in every train set, so is the Bluetooth based?

if not what does the dcs explorer really do? 

 

700e:
Have you tested that on Apple devices? The reason I ask is that Apple is pretty serious about accessibility guidelines. If there are accessibility issues with MTH's app then MTH needs to be made aware of them so they can fix them. I have known of apps that Apple has pulled from the app store because people have reported that the developers have refused to fix accessibility issues. When you tried it did you document the exact accessibility problem and relay that info to MTH? Hopefully later this week I'll be able to do some more testing. Can you mention specifically some examples of accessibility issues in the MTH app on Apple devices that I can test?
thanks
 
 
700E posted:

The operating systems of most Android and i-type devices have built-in accessibility apps, with names such as explore-by-touch and talkback, that support use by people with visual impairments.   Unfortunately, the user interface of the DCS app is only partially compatible with these accessibility apps.  (I tried it.)  Even for the cases in which the DCS app supports the accessibility apps, it can take so long to find and execute the desired function that reliable train operation (and crash avoidance) becomes impossible.  Bottom line is that, even with the apps that support vision-free operation of Android and i-type devices, you can't run the DCS app without looking at the device -- something that is definitely not true with the old fashioned remote.

 

I understand the comments about having a tactile based interface when it is necessary to place close attention constantly and visual interfaces amount to a distraction.  I don't see this as a significant issue because most layouts require you to set the throttles and occasionally you can operate the sounds or other accessories and that is about it.  Unless you have a very complex layout, set it and forget it seems to be the norm.  Hence the popularity of features such as cruise on the command locos.

The rest then comes down to personal preference.  I don't think either MTH or Lionel is trying to force anyone to abandon handhelds.  That being said, if there is a software application that will replace the handheld and that will be able to run on a device that the vast majority of households already have, that seems like a rational solution to the problem of hardware obsolescence and reliability.  Moreover, a tablet or phone has more expandability and can be upgraded over time as technology warrants.  This makes the hobby more interesting generally and appeals more to younger users that relate to things more through a phone or tablet.

I do think there will be some debugging and I went through that with the DCS wifi unit a few days ago, posted here about it.  The good thing is that you have people here on the forum who are experts and most of the issues are readily fixed.  Having adopted the wifi unit, I can tell you my kids love it and I wouldn't go back.  Not that the other modes of operation are bad, it is just that the tablet interface is easier for them to use.

Well, if using  a mobile device makes the toy train experience more attractive to a younger crowd, I'm for that. Will it make them a life long enthusiast is yet to be seen.

Real trains were the cutting edge technology of our time. Many of us here grew up with toy trains, fantasizing about being real engineers, or astronauts for that matter, and some have. Toy trains were the interactive toy of our childhood, and has lasted a life time. 

At times, we frequently like to just watch the trains run in our miniature worlds. The great thing about model railroading is that it can incorporate many creative aspects, electronics, model building, painting, weathering, scenery, etc. To keep the younger generation focused, we should also try to nurture those skills. Best yet, it's 3 dimensional, virtual reality will change that. 

I'm not into electronics, but I love to build models. Sometimes it's an all out detailed show piece, other times just glue together with a nice paint job. With the railroad, I may feel like doing scenery, wiring, building structures, or just running trains. We all have our favorite activities and gravitate to our desires.

I'm confident any bugs that exist with the new technology, will be worked out by the time I'm ready to explore it. If I do, I hope it's my Grandson who guides me along the way.

WiFi, mobile devices and apps, it's all good. It's just another road to follow, if we choose. Hopefully, if we don't follow that path, the one we have chosen doesn't say ROAD CLOSED at the end.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Clem,

Is it possible to go backwards on the upgrade (downgrade)  ?

Sure, except it's a bad idea.

It won't fix any problems that you're experiencing and may introduce some new problems due to bugs in 4.30 that were fixed in 5.0 and 6.0. Also, you can't use WiFi in 4.30.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, mine is that there is no good reason to go back to DCS 4.30. Whatever problems one may be encountering are almost certainly not due to the DCS 6.0 software.

Curious what "bugs" in 4.3 were fixed in subsequent releases, bugs pertaining to general use?   I don't have a "lost the lashup" issue since I quit doing "read", which was unhooking the logical tie between the units.  Can't think of other issues I'm having with 4.3 ... am I missing something important by not upgrading, if I don't want WiFi, etc?

What specifically bug-wise?

Thanks!

Kerrigan,

There is absolutely no reason not to upgrade to DCS 6.0, except for any imagined reasons that exist solely in your mind. If you have difficulties actually performing DCS upgrades, I'd recommend that you either work through them or find someone to do upgrades for you. In that regard, I'd be happy to do your DCS upgrades ro you. Just cover the cost of shipping your DCS stuff to and from me.

The single biggest reason to update to DCS 6.0 is that, if you contact MTH with any kind of an issue with anything earlier than DCS 6.0, the first thing that they should, and hopefully would, do is to tell you to upgrade to DCS 6.0.

My personal take is that I'm not going to waste any time troubleshooting any issues that may crop up while using an older DCS release.

I also still prefer the DCS remote and don't even own a smart phone, I still have a flip phone that's probably 8 or 9 years old by now. I do have an iPad, the DCS Wifi unit and the Deluxe app, but have not yet upgraded my TIU to 6.0 (although it's coming soon). The iPad is a bit large for using to run trains, IMO. An iPad mini might be a better choice for it's smaller size, also IMO, but we have had the iPad for several years (before the mini's were available anyway).

I also have several iPods that have accumulated over the years and one was starting to have problems. Went over to the Apple store to look around for a replacement and ended up with an iTouch (it's all they have now). It's basically an iPhone that doesn't make phone calls. Thought I would also try it with the new Deluxe app to see if I was ready to switch to a smart phone. Well I've been using the iTouch every day since I got it a couple of months ago and am still liking it more each day. I think I am now hooked on it and all of it's features (some of which I am still discovering). Really a much, much more functional device than my older iPods. 

Anyway, I can now clearly see an iPhone coming soon and possibly even another iTouch (the old flip phone will finally get to retire). Maybe the switch to using the MTH app full time will be next? Then as an added bonus I ordered an inexpensive little Bluetooth stereo receiver to fiddle with as the iTouch has Bluetooth. Now I have music in the basement that can be controlled from my iTouch (which is now almost always in my pocket) from anywhere in the basement. No longer have to go back to the music PC to adjust volume, change playlists, songs, etc. and to me that is really handy!!

Now I am wondering why I didn't do all this a lot sooner? Just saying you don't know until you actually try something for yourself. This is not the first time something like this has happened to me, not seeing a need for something until I finally got one and then couldn't do without it. 

 

rtr12 posted:

Now I am wondering why I didn't do all this a lot sooner? Just saying you don't know until you actually try something for yourself. This is not the first time something like this has happened to me, not seeing a need for something until I finally got one and then couldn't do without it.  

That's what happens to a lot of folks. Technology is often something we don't really need because what we have generally still works and it's costly to try something new that we may not like. My daughters gave me an iPod many years ago and it finally started having problems so I switched to an iTouch. I also had that for quite a few years and never really used it, mostly because soon after I bought it we got smartphones and no longer really had a need for the iTouch.

Then a few years ago we wanted tablets and iPads were too expensive, so we went with Android like our phones. Unfortunately, we picked a brand (Toshiba) that soon got orphaned and that soured us on tablets, so we settled for new laptops. The aging eyes helped with that decision. We did get 2 more smaller tablets because they were free with other purchases, but we should have gone with iPads to begin with and just kept upgrading. Now tablets are losing favor, but I'm getting tired of lugging 2 laptops when we travel, so we're still thinking about iPads. Trouble is I think I want the large Pro with the keyboard to replace my laptop, not sure about Jeanette, so I'm going to play with my brother's smaller version next week to see how it works with its stand on my lap tray to simulate the laptop.

Even though I still haven't started my layout build, and it looks like it will be delayed until next spring now, I need to update my equipment, so a small test loop-2-loop will go back up and I think I'll start fiddling with wifi. As we drive from Savannah to Green Bay this week, we'll be stopping at Mr Muffin's on Wednesday and with some luck I hope to buy a diesel, if they have the one I want.

Either way, I feel your pain about technology and the hesitation. I've long wanted to upgrade our home with "smart" features like Alexa, Chromecast, wifi security cameras, speakers, thermostat, lighting, etc., but it's hard to figure out which system to buy into. If I decide to get the iPad, that will probably make the decision for me and I'll go with Apple's HomeKit and see where that takes us.

The wifi under the tree with a couple of trains was different and a good conversation piece. However, for my main layout with a dozen or so trains running the remote is my choice and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. With time, l'll experiment with the wifi and see how things like record/playback work. I did just purchase a new remote while they are available. So now I have a combination of 4.1,4.2 and 5.0 software. So far I haven't noticed any unusual problems. Pulling the plug on the remote is premature in my opinion. 

Hi Dave,

Yes, I agree with the new tech stuff. I did the same thing with ipods, never saw a need until I finally got one. Then I couldn't do without one. Some things do get me right away, but some do not. I also just discovered my iTouch keeps track of how far I walk every day! Another neat feature. It only has wifi and there is none where I walk on the trails around here, but it somehow keeps pretty close track of the mileage. I was always going by the trail mile markers before and the iTouch is very close to the mile markers in distance measuring.

As for the iPads, we have an early version. My wife wanted it and then hardly used it. I have been using it too. My wife texts the kids and grand kids with it and that is about all. I think you will like the iPad Pro. It looks like it's plenty big enough to be able to read most everything on. I have been thinking about an iPad Mini as well, for train operation. Although so far I have been able to read the iTouch just fine so I may wait on that for a bit. Also my grandson has an iPad Mini and I may just try his first.

As for the phone, I will probably get an iPhone 6, the smaller one. I think you have to get the wireless earhones with an iPhone 7 and that's another $150 or so plus tax I think. I already have a bunch of wired earphones and they work just fine. I have a friend that recently got a Samsung smart phone (not the exploding/burning kind) and he tells me regularly that he wishes he had gotten an iPhone instead.

I also like the home automation stuff and the smart phone would allow all that to happen too. That is one newer tech item that I won't have to wait on, I have been interested in that for some time now, but had no smart phone or desire to get one until now. What will they think of next??

RTR12, I agree with everything except the iPhone part, but that's a personal preference. We have Samsung Note 5's and love them. However, if I do go with the iPad and HomeKit, our next smartphone will probably be an iPhone so everything works seamlessly. If your friend has other Apple products, that might explain his regret over not buying an IPhone. I much prefer Android and really don't like the iPad, iPhone, etc., but everything does work together more easily, so that's the reason I'd switch. The biggest negative will be having to keep my laptop to run SCARM.

rtr12 posted:

Hi Dave,

Yes, I agree with the new tech stuff. I did the same thing with ipods, never saw a need until I finally got one. Then I couldn't do without one. Some things do get me right away, but some do not. I also just discovered my iTouch keeps track of how far I walk every day! Another neat feature. It only has wifi and there is none where I walk on the trails around here, but it somehow keeps pretty close track of the mileage. I was always going by the trail mile markers before and the iTouch is very close to the mile markers in distance measuring.

As for the iPads, we have an early version. My wife wanted it and then hardly used it. I have been using it too. My wife texts the kids and grand kids with it and that is about all. I think you will like the iPad Pro. It looks like it's plenty big enough to be able to read most everything on. I have been thinking about an iPad Mini as well, for train operation. Although so far I have been able to read the iTouch just fine so I may wait on that for a bit. Also my grandson has an iPad Mini and I may just try his first.

As for the phone, I will probably get an iPhone 6, the smaller one. I think you have to get the wireless earhones with an iPhone 7 and that's another $150 or so plus tax I think. I already have a bunch of wired earphones and they work just fine. I have a friend that recently got a Samsung smart phone (not the exploding/burning kind) and he tells me regularly that he wishes he had gotten an iPhone instead.

I also like the home automation stuff and the smart phone would allow all that to happen too. That is one newer tech item that I won't have to wait on, I have been interested in that for some time now, but had no smart phone or desire to get one until now. What will they think of next??

iPhone 7 doesn't require the AirPod headphones. Apple simply removed the headphone jack and now uses Audio thru the lighting port. Apple even gives you an adapter to use your old headphones.  I would recommend get the 7. 

Last edited by ChessieMD

Dave,

I think maybe he has a Note 5 as well, or something like that. It is not one the newer ones they have out now. I will try to remember to ask him why he wants an iPhone instead. He does have an iPad, but he has an app that allows texting between the different types of devices and I don't know what all else he has adapted to the iPhones.

If you like the Samsung phones, you should maybe look into the apps for compatibility before switching. Not having a smart phone, I really don't know enough to say what is and is not compatible? I am sure you would know what to look for though. Just a thought...

I know that is one bad thing about the Macs, iMacs, etc. that nothing for our trains runs on them, like the Lionel and MTH update programs and things like that. It will be good to keep a PC based laptop for just such things and also SCARM and RRT of course.  

Last edited by rtr12
ChessieMD posted:
rtr12 posted:

Hi Dave,

Yes, I agree with the new tech stuff. I did the same thing with ipods, never saw a need until I finally got one. Then I couldn't do without one. Some things do get me right away, but some do not. I also just discovered my iTouch keeps track of how far I walk every day! Another neat feature. It only has wifi and there is none where I walk on the trails around here, but it somehow keeps pretty close track of the mileage. I was always going by the trail mile markers before and the iTouch is very close to the mile markers in distance measuring.

As for the iPads, we have an early version. My wife wanted it and then hardly used it. I have been using it too. My wife texts the kids and grand kids with it and that is about all. I think you will like the iPad Pro. It looks like it's plenty big enough to be able to read most everything on. I have been thinking about an iPad Mini as well, for train operation. Although so far I have been able to read the iTouch just fine so I may wait on that for a bit. Also my grandson has an iPad Mini and I may just try his first.

As for the phone, I will probably get an iPhone 6, the smaller one. I think you have to get the wireless earhones with an iPhone 7 and that's another $150 or so plus tax I think. I already have a bunch of wired earphones and they work just fine. I have a friend that recently got a Samsung smart phone (not the exploding/burning kind) and he tells me regularly that he wishes he had gotten an iPhone instead.

I also like the home automation stuff and the smart phone would allow all that to happen too. That is one newer tech item that I won't have to wait on, I have been interested in that for some time now, but had no smart phone or desire to get one until now. What will they think of next??

iPhone 7 doesn't require the AirPod headphones. Apple simply removed the headphone jack and now uses Audio thru the lighting port. Apple even gives you an adapter to use your old headphones.  I would recommend get the 7. 

Thanks, I was not aware of that. I haven't yet really looked at the phones though. Coming soon!

I'm not attached to any particular phone or operating system. I just think Android allows users to do more than any of the Apple products. Apple is a closed/controlled environment, but its hardware and software work together seamlessly and that's a big plus for a lot of folks. I'm now past the stage where I want/need the flexibility Android offers, but I still have some difficulty with the high price of Apple products. However, if I go SmartHome, I feel the premium prices are worth it for the ease of use, just like Mianne bench work is worth it for those who want the ease and convenience.....and can afford it. I know I can walk into an Apple Store and come out with a fully functional system. I know I can probably piecemeal together an Android system too, but at what cost and how much time and how much of a learning curve. I really need to find someone with some or all of that I want so I can see what I'm getting into.

I will ask my friend what the differences are that he's missing, the one that wants an iPhone instead of his Samsung phone. I really don't have a clue never having really looked closely at any of them. I am still discovering new buttons to push on my iTouch after a couple of months! 

I did see the Apple home control stuff at the Apple store, but wasn't really sure what it really did either? I have been thinking about looking for a wireless security camera system of some sort to catch pictures of the wild life that goes through our back yard at night. Maybe the Apple home stuff has those too? Probably need to make another trip to the Apple store. Was thinking about a trail camera, but the wireless video sounds like it would be a lot neater.

Ok, so the impending DCS Explorer can only control 3 locomotives. The handheld is convenient. My current iPad is heavier and bulkier and I do not want to use my iPhone as I have many incoming phone calls coming in and that's distracting for me. I'm not thrilled but I ve come to expect, technology is always changing.

RTR12, I don't know if the Apple HomeKit is the solution I'm looking for either, but it's something I'm going to be checking out. I want to be able to check on the house while we're traveling. I also want to be able to turn the AC or heat on before we get home, things like that. I'll send you an email with whatever I find when I start looking into this when we get home., We're in Georgia and leaving for Wisconsin in the morning.

Seacoast posted:

Ok, so the impending DCS Explorer can only control 3 locomotives. The handheld is convenient. My current iPad is heavier and bulkier and I do not want to use my iPhone as I have many incoming phone calls coming in and that's distracting for me. I'm not thrilled but I ve come to expect, technology is always changing.

You really DON'T want to be using your everyday phone for running trains - get a dedicated device!

That's why I've been recommending Android devices -they are cheap and feature-wise your only concern is screen size.

Plus - if you decide you dont like table/phone control - you're not out much coin.

Roving Sign posted:

You really DON'T want to be using your everyday phone for running trains - get a dedicated device!

That's why I've been recommending Android devices -they are cheap and feature-wise your only concern is screen size.

Plus - if you decide you dont like table/phone control - you're not out much coin.

And they don't need to be connected to a service, they just need to have wifi, right?

DoubleDAZ posted:
Roving Sign posted:

You really DON'T want to be using your everyday phone for running trains - get a dedicated device!

That's why I've been recommending Android devices -they are cheap and feature-wise your only concern is screen size.

Plus - if you decide you dont like table/phone control - you're not out much coin.

And they don't need to be connected to a service, they just need to have wifi, right?

Correct. They don't even have to be connected to the internet, just a local network. 

Roving Sign posted:
Seacoast posted:

Ok, so the impending DCS Explorer can only control 3 locomotives. The handheld is convenient. My current iPad is heavier and bulkier and I do not want to use my iPhone as I have many incoming phone calls coming in and that's distracting for me. I'm not thrilled but I ve come to expect, technology is always changing.

You really DON'T want to be using your everyday phone for running trains - get a dedicated device!

That's why I've been recommending Android devices -they are cheap and feature-wise your only concern is screen size.

Plus - if you decide you dont like table/phone control - you're not out much coin.

Ok, maybe I'll search Groupon for a refurbished Samsung tablet. Let me get this correct the DCS Explorer will only run 3 engines. Will I need more Explorers to run more then 3 engines ?

 

 

 

Last edited by Seacoast

George,

Will I need more Explorers to run more then 3 engines ?

AFAIK, you are limited to one DCS Explorer per layout. However, there won't be any definitive answers regarding this product until MTH actually builds it and releases, sometime later this year.

The DCS Explorer is a replacement for the DCS Remote Commander. It is intended to be an entry-level device for running a starter set engine in DCS mode usng the DCS App. It is expected to allow only limited DCS functionality.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
Seacoast posted:
Roving Sign posted:
Seacoast posted:

Ok, so the impending DCS Explorer can only control 3 locomotives. The handheld is convenient. My current iPad is heavier and bulkier and I do not want to use my iPhone as I have many incoming phone calls coming in and that's distracting for me. I'm not thrilled but I ve come to expect, technology is always changing.

You really DON'T want to be using your everyday phone for running trains - get a dedicated device!

That's why I've been recommending Android devices -they are cheap and feature-wise your only concern is screen size.

Plus - if you decide you dont like table/phone control - you're not out much coin.

Ok, maybe I'll search Groupon for a refurbished Samsung tablet. Let me get this correct the DCS Explorer will only run 3 engines. Will I need more Explorers to run more then 3 engines ?

Good question - info is scant on the DCS Explorer - While it seems it uses the same DCS app - not sure its made to interact with multiple units or interact with full DCS systems.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Clem,

Click here to see what's been added/fixed in DCS 6.0.

Thanks for the link Barry.  Didn't see anything on it which would induce me to upgrade from 4.3.  Haven't encountered problems since upgrading to 4.3 which would cause me to think it's not working correctly for my layout.  Layouts vary so much it's not unusual there would be some operational differences even using the same version of software.  How many times have we heard "ummm ... it doesn't do that on my layout" ... or does when it doesn't on someone else's setup.  Upgrading our three TIUs and three remotes to 4.3 was a big PIA and don't want to go down that road again if I can avoid it.

Not having been able to get any help from MTH in the past I'm not counting on any in the future.  Ordering parts is enough of a headache, depending on one person at MTH "Midge" to handle it all.  Never got a return call from her in the couple of times I called.

There are more than a few  here who have messaged "wish I'd have stayed on 4.3"

For the past months our layout has been stable, and as Kyrian wisely suggests "if it ain't broke, don't upgrade it."

Last edited by Kerrigan

It is the end of the line for my DCS Handheld Controller. 

C&O Hudson #492

C&O Hudson DCS WiFi

B&M SW8 #800

B&M SW8 800 DCS WiFi

U.P. F3 A-B-A #1400

UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

Next stop, move onto an iPad - I was able to run my android phone next to an iPad at a train show at my LHS.  The iPad is faster and the larger screen is better for the touch screen.  Better finger management on the commands.

Gary

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  • C&O Hudson DCS WiFi
  • B&M SW8 800 DCS WiFi
  • UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

I have the DCS Premium App on my android phone. I have been thinking about getting an IPad to use the LCS system because that seems to be designed around Apple Products(I think they made the mistake doing that, android is used as much if not more than apple). Only problem I have had is one time not being able to control my N&W 611 because it seemed to have lost connection to the WIU, but they could be the distance that the WIU is from my wireless router, luckily I just recently put in a toggle switch that just controls track power so I was able to keep it from crashing into rolling stock on my layout. I look at the DCS Remote as much as I at look at my phone screen controlling my layout. In my opinion, you look at the screen or button layout as much using both methods DCS Remote or the DCS app. I have not noticed any huge difference between using the two styles of control.

"android is used as much if not more than apple)."

 

Not true of tablets, I believe,  only of phones. iPads may well outnumber Android tablets in actual use.  In any case, whatever you are used to tends to be what you think is most wonderful .  One thing for certain, iOS devices work well with Mac computers because they are designed around the same platform, unlike Android (Google) and Windows computers, which are made by competing vendors who don't always work and play as nicely together as one single vendor, in my experience.

Since both platforms are supported, it seems unfair to blame any deficiencies, real or imagined, of the Android platform, on support for the iOS system.  The latter is considered easier to program for and easier to integrate with desktop operating systems by many developers.  Some of the limitations of the Android app may simply be inherent in these issues from what I'm told by those who should know.

Guys,

Late to this thread but as retired tech guy I felt the "need to add my 2 cents worth !

I Hope MTS and Lionel do not ever give up handheld units. Both DCS and Legacy are great. I have to give the tech edge to MTH on the DCS right now. As far as the apps and the use of cell phones and tablets. Currently Lionel is easier to implement. I saw and worked with the MTH system at Trainfest and implementation is complicated and pc based. Lionel Blue tooth seems easy implementation.

I have both Lionel TMCC/ Legacy and MTH DCS running on my layout. I and my operators ( grandkids) use the handhelds and love them. Hand units are lot cheaper to use that buying extra smartphones!

I guess, in a perfect world, Lionel and MTH can keep both. Just like analog option. Not everyone will want to use cell phones to run their layouts.

I wonder how the "radio control" Lionel Chief Plus figures into the equation? It is simple to set up and use. Minutes to get it running and intuitive for kids and old folks !

I am going  to  add a couple of Lionel Chief Plus engines to my layout for the under 5 year old "operators."

Hopefully the manufactures read all these treads on this wonderful forum.

 

Tom

 

Gentlemen,

   I have been super High Tech all my life, however I do not want to control my O Gauge Rail Road trains via my phone.   I like my Hand Held remote controllers and want to run in that manner.  It will not make me a happy camper if MTH eliminates the parts and the Hand Held remotes in the future.  I in no way want to control my train layout via wifi.

There must be many many more like me in the Hobby.

PCRR/Dave

It makes no difference to me if I control my trains via a proprietary handheld device or a handheld device running an app.

Actually, I'm already doing it.  I have DCS and TMCC for my remaining 3-rail engines and handheld 2.4Ghz transmitters (from RCS Australia) and an IPad for my battery-powered, 2-rail engines using Deltang or BlueRail receivers.

Frankly I'd like to see MTH and Lionel get out of the command control manufacturing business, thus (hopefully) reducing the cost of their engines or at least applying the money spent on it to better uses.

It wasn't long ago people griped about going from conventional control to command control (me included), but the times they are a changing (ought to write a song about it  .

I too agree with PCRR/Dave, no reason not to keep the hand held remotes.

Unless they want to "save money" and make the user supply the remote. Then when something isn't working the train manufacture's first response will be it must be You ( Your phone, your wifi, etc) that is the problem. Could not be their product.

Hope they keep the hand held, would have to consider something else if they eliminate them.

 

Tom

 

I don't blame MTH for wanting to pull the production of the of the DCS remote.  Asking them to continue to produce a product that has been replaced with something newer that performs the same tasks and keeping all of these older production assemblies running for a small percentage of people who want them is not cost feasible. 

I would love it if my new Ford Explorer had an old style shaft radio instead of this nifty flat screen panel that controls all of the radio functions. The shaft radio was much simpler and did everything I wanted. Unfortunately, Ford decided that for the extremely few shaft radios they would sell (plus  how it would probable hurt their image by just offering them) is not cost feasible to offer the old technology anymore.

Like it or not, MTH needs to update there technology and leave some older stuff behind as we move forward.  We were willing to embrace DCS command control years ago, and later on demanded that MTH improve and upgrade the remote, now that they have delivered we don't want it and want them to keep old (expensive) remotes in production to satisfy a few older operators preference.

I'm not sure how old the posters who are lobbying for MTH to keep the old remotes, but I'll assume that they are over or very near retirement age. If MTH keeps building these old remotes for the next 20 years just so that a few people can replace them year after year, there's a chance these users won't be around to buy them and MTH may go bankrupt trying to sell them. If Ford never changed the Explorer since the 2000 model year, I would never have bought a new one two years ago and I don't think Ford would be very viable anymore by trying to market and produce a 17 year old product. Especially when they already have a modern product to replace it that is much more competitive and incorporates modern technology that is in demand.

Interesting comment byH1000. Seems to me that the knowledgeable folks on this forum are the more experienced ones. Some of the folks that figured out how to make this stuff work and explain it to all. Anyway the tecky generation is working to replace all our current stuff with blue tooth. They are also forecasting the end of the car as we know it. Being old does have some pluses.

"Being old does have some pluses."  Name a few practical ones please.  Speaking as someone who clearly classifies in that category, other than perhaps wisdom and patience, being old is mostly a disadvantage, speaking personally.

 

There's no inherent reason any of these technologies cannot employ a physical remote.  MTH just doesn't wish to provide one in the future. 

Lionel does.  It's best selling line, their sets, contain a physical remote in each and command control of the included loco using that remote, as well as Bluetooth for use of the loco with their universal remote. Dirt cheap. $40 street price. 

Their separate sale locos, LionChief+ and Legacy,  all can be used without change with this universal remote, or the remote that comes with LionChief+ locos or with the Legacy system.  You cannot use the LionChief or LionChief+ locos with the Legacy remote, but they all come with a physical remote from the getgo.  You can also operate any of these locos using Bluetooth and your phone/tablet if that's your preference.  In summary,  Lionel has mentioned no intention of getting rid of physical remotes.  To the contrary.  They are providing lots of options, in addition to conventional, obviously. Seems clear which way to go, if a physical remote is your strong preference for command control.

I understand the need for new technology when it works better than the previous, But so far this is not better. I now need 2 hands and I have to look at the screen, not the trains. There is no more feel between me and the train. The only weak link in the old remote for me is the difficulty of taking it apart.

Now if the remote has a track diagram screen too control switch tracks, That would be better technology. This offers me a short list of fine print.

I still like my remote, subject to change

Clem k

Last edited by clem k
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, you can run the phone without phone service, I have several older phones retired from use that work fine for the MTH WiFi unit.  I have an old Droid 2 and a couple of Samsung Note 2 models, they all work just fine.

Thanks John. Used phones should be easy to find. I'm just not sure i want to give up the remote but there may come a time when one has no choice.

H1000 posted:

I don't blame MTH for wanting to pull the production of the of the DCS remote.  Asking them to continue to produce a product that has been replaced with something newer that performs the same tasks and keeping all of these older production assemblies running for a small percentage of people who want them is not cost feasible. 

Alas, sadly it doesn't replace our current stone age remote at all. Right now these antiques run three TIU's and 6 throttles via three Z-4000 Remote Commanders. After a few times any guest can operate the remote in the dark during night time running via feel.

With an app on a phone or tablet we would to now purchase 5 of them because no guest wants to come over and watch you run trains. We'll have to purchase 3 WiFi units because we'll lose the ability to contact the TIU's. And worst of all, we'll lose the ability to remotely control the Z-4000's via the Remote Commander boxes.

MTH can still make the remotes, heck not long after Lionel said they could no longer make TMCC Cab1's out came the slightly refined Legacy "Cab1Light" unit. At first with the TIU MTH was ahead of Lionel and its myriad of add on boxes to control things. Looks like MTH just surpassed Lionel...

feet posted:

Lets say i buy into this new tech, i most likely won't.  Can i buy a phone  without phone service and still use it to run trains?  I checked into an I phone but you have a contract and pay each month for service. I asked the sales person how much if i wanted just the phone. $1000.00. He suggested a I pod for what i was wanting to do. Not cheap either.

Yes:  I am running my layout with no phone service. When a phone is turned off by the phone company it still works. All the features work. internet, clock, weather and 911 service.

I am using a used phone. Got the phone for free, just for my train room.  The only cost was the MTH DCS WiFi Unit • $150.00, with the APP.  A lot of model train fun at a reasonable price.

UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

Gary; Checking out the future of model railroading.

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  • UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

trainroomgary posted:
feet posted:

Lets say i buy into this new tech, i most likely won't.  Can i buy a phone  without phone service and still use it to run trains?  I checked into an I phone but you have a contract and pay each month for service. I asked the sales person how much if i wanted just the phone. $1000.00. He suggested a I pod for what i was wanting to do. Not cheap either.

Yes:  I am running my layout with no phone service. When a phone is turned off by the phone company it still works. All the features work. internet, clock, weather and 911 service.

I am using a used phone. Got the phone for free, just for my train room.  The only cost was the MTH DCS WiFi Unit • $150.00, with the APP.  A lot of model train fun at a reasonable price.

UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

Gary; Checking out the future of model railroading.

What I don't understand is:

 

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

Last edited by @T1Titan_ZachF
@T1Titan_ZachF posted.

What I don't understand is:

 A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

 B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

Hi Zach:  If Barry see this, he should answer this question.  I learned MTH DCS -WiFi from Mike Wolf at my local hobby shop.

Mike Wolf Thumbnail

Mike is on tour, he may be in your area. Sign up for the MTH Newsletter, to see where he is and other MTH Executives are doing live demos. 

Gary: Having model train fun, learning MTH • DCS  WiFi.

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  • Mike Wolf Thumbnail
@T1Titan_ZachF posted:
trainroomgary posted:
feet posted:

Lets say i buy into this new tech, i most likely won't.  Can i buy a phone  without phone service and still use it to run trains?  I checked into an I phone but you have a contract and pay each month for service. I asked the sales person how much if i wanted just the phone. $1000.00. He suggested a I pod for what i was wanting to do. Not cheap either.

Yes:  I am running my layout with no phone service. When a phone is turned off by the phone company it still works. All the features work. internet, clock, weather and 911 service.

I am using a used phone. Got the phone for free, just for my train room.  The only cost was the MTH DCS WiFi Unit • $150.00, with the APP.  A lot of model train fun at a reasonable price.

UP F3 ABA #1400 DCS WiFi

Gary; Checking out the future of model railroading.

What I don't understand is:

 

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? Who said anything about better?   The fact I can walk around with my Iphone and control trains without bulky remotes is good enough for me.  The APP can't do everything the Legacy remote can do, for now.  The future?  Who knows

 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?  Lionel has released the code for Legacy and TMCC where MTH has not.  Fair?  No but it's business and each have their reasons.

 

Last edited by superwarp1

Have to agree with Clem. I am and have been a professional tech guy and always say tech where and where appropriate. In the case of the cell phone and tablet apps, they are just an automation not an innovation. The handhelds allow you to watch your trains. You feel the controls, wheels buttons, etc.

You do not feel anything but the screen with the apps stuff, and have to look down at them more often.

I just hope MTH and Lionel keep the hand held units along with conventional control and apps for those that want them.  I said it before, when the train is not responding to your commands via the app, is it the phone/tablet, your wifi, router? cable service or the manufactures engine?  You know when you call for tech support what the manufacture is going to say...

Tom Q Fan posted:

Have to agree with Clem. I am and have been a professional tech guy and always say tech where and where appropriate. In the case of the cell phone and tablet apps, they are just an automation not an innovation. The handhelds allow you to watch your trains. You feel the controls, wheels buttons, etc.

You do not feel anything but the screen with the apps stuff, and have to look down at them more often.

I just hope MTH and Lionel keep the hand held units along with conventional control and apps for those that want them.  I said it before, when the train is not responding to your commands via the app, is it the phone/tablet, your wifi, router? cable service or the manufactures engine?  You know when you call for tech support what the manufacture is going to say...

Good insights! I have a small 9'x3 switching layout, so for me slow speed and quick control of the trains is essential. With the handheld I can quickly add and take off the speed without having to look down, and now my brain knows exactly where each key is located on the remote, simply by touch. So during an operating session, my eyes are glued to the layout and trains. Hard to emulate that user experience using a mobile phone or tablet.  All for innovation, but the solid experience and interaction between the engineer and the train using the DCS remote has proven to be quite successful for all these years and most likely could continue well into the future. 

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

What I don't understand is:

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

A: It doesn't.  That's baloney.  You get some Legacy functions, but you don't get all the access to various lighting features, etc.

B: Lionel has released the Legacy protocol specification, MTH has not.

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

How many folks have arrived at the same spot we have: enough Z4000 transformer(s) power for the current and future motive power and accessories, enough remotes and TIUs,AIUs, etc. to do the same? 

 In other words "Upgrades?  We don't need no stinkin' upgrades!"

Sooner or later there isn't anything left to get to make it all run right.

BobbyD posted:
H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

That's great but why should MTH continue to build a PS1 specific product to support a product that makes up less than 10% or engines that MTH has ever sold for a very small group of users that are slowly diminishing.  We can't expect these companies to continue to maintain production facilities for products that have features in low demand to keep a few people happy for rest of their lives.

I believe that MTH has not updated the Z4000 because of the increase in R&D and retooling costs associated with making a new product that will essentially do same thing... provide power.  The demand for a revamped Z4000 hasn't been that great and there isn't much room for a wow factor when it comes to redesigning the transformer. I'd be looking for app integration and a way to have the transformer resume previous voltage level when it is turned on... nothing spectacular.

But to me it's kind of depressing to see new Z4000's with the remote port on them and no way to use it unless you already own stuff that MTH made years ago. It is also depressing to see the PS1 specific controls for locomotives that MTH produces over 17 years ago and will never be used on anything they (or anyone else) will make in the future. My nephew asked why the Z4000 had these extra programming buttons, and I told him that it is for PS1 engines made before he was born.

Last edited by H1000
BobbyD posted:
H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

Kerrigan posted:
BobbyD posted:
H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

That's interesting...

I have also noticed that the voltage readout on the remote & transformer is not always the same as what is at the terminals on the back. 16 volts reads as 17.5 on my meter, but it never gets over 22 at max position.

Kerrigan posted:
BobbyD posted:
H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

Never paid much attention to that, and in the remote mode you don't get to see the amp load, just know that with the receiver plugged in the tripping is almost instantaneous.

I don't agree with the idea that time and technology march on and old stuff doesn't need to be supported any longer.  Anybody remember the now defunct Sega game systems?  They didn't think supporting previous systems was important, either.  The model train hobby is a fairly small group of people who run everything from pre-war to modern.  Because the hobby has such a long history and much of the equipment still operable, it would seem to be in the best interests of the manufacturers to make their new systems as backward compatible as possible, and to offer as many options as possible.

To say that young people are so infatuated with their cell phones they won't do model trains unless they can be run from their phones is rather insulting to these same young people.  The actual method of operation, I believe, has little to do with new people getting into this hobby.  They either want model trains or they don't.  Frankly, the cost of getting into and expanding on the initial investment is probably the biggest hurdle; model trains ain't cheap.  BTW; I see lots of young people every weekend flying their drones, which have become immensely popular.  And every person I see is using a handheld remote control to fly those things.

So, yes, there is room for conventional transformer operation, handheld remotes and cell phones.  It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.

I'm sticking with my BPRC stuff, I just converted an Atlas F3 from TMCC/ERR to BPRC.

Here's a photo showing the components before I wired them in:

DSCN0875_688

9.6v 200Mah battery, Deltang Rx65b sitting on top, and a BIK-U3B on/off switch with charging jack on the right.  I use a RCS Tx3 transmitter to run the trains:

TX-3a

No smoke or sound, yet.  I'm hoping someone will offer something in the future but if it doesn't happen I'm happy.  Been running BPRC for over 2 years now with ZERO problems.

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Bob Delbridge posted:

I'm sticking with my BPRC stuff, I just converted an Atlas F3 from TMCC/ERR to BPRC.

...

No smoke or sound, yet.  I'm hoping someone will offer something in the future but if it doesn't happen I'm happy.  Been running BPRC for over 2 years now with ZERO problems.

Sorry Bob, that's a non starter for me!  The great sound and smoke effects really add to the experience, at least they do for me and most of the folks I run across.

gunrunnerjohn posted

 

Sorry Bob, that's a non starter for me!  The great sound and smoke effects really add to the experience, at least they do for me and most of the folks I run across.

Most 3-railers will probably agree, not so much for 2-trailers.  At least on smoke.

Sound will come in time for BPRC, and by that time I'll be well ahead of the curve.

 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

John,

Doesn't work that well when the remotes are discontinued and not available, note the subject of the thread.

That problem is a year or more away. Live for today.

Some smart person will specialize in supporting/repairing the 10,000-plus-or-minus a couple, remotes already out there ;-)  Someone is already ordering a lot of replacement wheels from MTH, if/when they can get hold of Midge, or get a call returned.

From my own experience, I think the remote and wifi premium app both stink. The only remote I bought worked for 1 night and then a wire came off the wheel and so I can't scroll between menus. I have to send it back to get it fixed.

I figured I'd wait for the premium app to come out and just buy that and the wifi unit instead - invest in the future. So I did and purchased the 9 pin to usb cable needed to fit my TIU (older working TIU - not Rev L but also not Rev G) and an extra MTH 750 brick to provide dedicated power to the TIU. Premium app won't recognize the TIU at the moment. I've read some of the fixes here online to no avail. I'm sure it's user error.

I have purchased the ebook everyone talks about - more investment. I have both the newest wifi version and the prior version. During my summer vacation I intend to read through the 250+ pages to confirm that I am a moron for not being able to figure out how to get all of these pieces working together.

Once I do that and get a repaired remote back from MTH (another few $$s spent), I'll be in a better position to say which I prefer. For now, I like the CAB2 that is running my Legacy engines the most. It worked right out of the box after following the 3 paragraphs of directions on page 6 of the owners manual.

Last edited by Former Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Barry Broskowitz posted:
That problem is a year or more away. Live for today.

God forbid that we should plan a bit ahead!

Actually, Mike did plan ahead, just not for the outcome those of us (myself included) who like a physical remote's feel with buttons would like.

While he did not state at the time that the 2017-18 time frame would be the end for the DCS remote, he did state quite openly at least 1-1 1/2 years ago at the TCA Museum talk that with the "wonderful" new app capabilities, he would never invest in producing another physical remote again. 

It might be a little more in the public eye now (there are probably a few more active Forum members reading this thread than were present at that presentation), but he hasn't been hiding it.  He just now has a rough end time frame planned (assuming Barry's assessment of "a year or more away" is accurate, which I have no reason to question).

-Dave

Any company that has an ability to produce an APP the works well and can out perform the hardware handheld would be nuts to continue to produce the hardware.  As much as I prefer the hardware remote, I also understand the business and engineering implications. 

I also suspect Lionel will follow suit soon as well but I believe their APP will need to be reworked, LCS properly promoted, and the price point adjusted drastically.

Waddy posted:

I don't agree with the idea that time and technology march on and old stuff doesn't need to be supported any longer.  Anybody remember the now defunct Sega game systems?  They didn't think supporting previous systems was important, either.  The model train hobby is a fairly small group of people who run everything from pre-war to modern.  Because the hobby has such a long history and much of the equipment still operable, it would seem to be in the best interests of the manufacturers to make their new systems as backward compatible as possible, and to offer as many options as possible.

To say that young people are so infatuated with their cell phones they won't do model trains unless they can be run from their phones is rather insulting to these same young people.  The actual method of operation, I believe, has little to do with new people getting into this hobby.  They either want model trains or they don't.  Frankly, the cost of getting into and expanding on the initial investment is probably the biggest hurdle; model trains ain't cheap. BTW; I see lots of young people every weekend flying their drones, which have become immensely popular.  And every person I see is using a handheld remote control to fly those things.

 

My Cable company and its supplier could just provide non working phones and replace its remotes!

MartyE posted:

Any company that has an ability to produce an APP the works well and can out perform the hardware handheld would be nuts to continue to produce the hardware.  As much as I prefer the hardware remote, I also understand the business and engineering implications.

You assume facts not in evidence, "can outperform" is in the eyes of the beholder, it certainly won't be true for many folks. 

It's not hard to understand trying to avoid building one part of your system and letting the customer supply that part, you can certainly save money on production!  However, just tossing the responsibility for that piece of your product over the wall into the vast unknown may end up not being as good a business decision as you are assuming.  The marketplace will make that decision after the deed is done.

I must say that I am not sure any of this really helps to get new people into the hobby. I know that the younger generation is more tech minded and your argument might be that would spur interest, but I believe if they are interested in technology, they will not funnel that into trains. There are too many other high tech things to get into and spend one's money on.

I also believe that you have just added another layer of complexity and cost. If I had not already been hooked from my original trains from the 50's, then enamored by the sounds and control enabled by the systems presented in the 90's, I would look at the cost of the trains themselves, then see the cost of an operating system, power source, a wifi unit, and then add to that a device not included with the manufacturer of the system and would balk at even beginning. Cost would be a major factor...all of that seems overwhelming to me. I have gotten into it because it was little steps at a time. If a hobby store sales person would be asked what I needed to start running these trains and he would go through and show me each item, my response would be "so, where are the drones with cameras? I think I will try one of those."

Rick

 

John,

I can assure you that, from a responsiveness perspective, the DCS App absolutely performs better than does the DCS Remote, as regards speed of executing a command and wireless range of operation. The need to more closely "look at" the app's screen is, perhaps, offset by MTH's ability to make improvements to the app, to make it increasingly intuitive.

Further, the real opportunity will come in the future, as MTH will be able to expand DCS beyond the capabilities of the existing remote. Investment need only be made as regards enhancing the app's software as opposed to developing a new piece of remote hardware, along with the new software that it would require.

Regardless, I agree that the market will make the ultimate determination of the wisdom of MTH's decisions.

"I also suspect Lionel will follow suit soon as well but I believe their APP will need to be reworked, LCS properly promoted, and the price point adjusted drastically."

I see no evidence, as yet,  that Lionel is abandoning a physical remote. Indeed, it seems quite the opposite.   They have three currently in production.  The LionChief and LionChief+ remotes which come with every set or separate sale loco in those product lines, and the Legacy remote for separate sale for those who want the advanced features and additional complexity (a small minority of their customers, I'd guess).  All Lionel locos will have the option for Bluetooth control by a phone or tablet app. 

Best of both worlds in my eyes.  No need for wi-fi, additional equipment of any sort,  or increased complexity if you don't want it.  Couldn't ask for a better comparison of which marketing approach (these two extremes) will work best.  Lionel's approach certainly is less expensive for the consumer who doesn't want the capabilities of wi-fi, layout control or other advanced features.  This approach is also not  expensive for Lionel if they can sell the universal remote with Bluetooth capacity for under $50.

Landsteiner posted:

"I also suspect Lionel will follow suit soon as well but I believe their APP will need to be reworked, LCS properly promoted, and the price point adjusted drastically."

I see no evidence, as yet,  that Lionel is abandoning a physical remote. Indeed, it seems quite the opposite.   They have three currently in production.  The LionChief and LionChief+ remotes which come with every set or separate sale loco in those product lines, and the Legacy remote for separate sale for those who want the advanced features and additional complexity (a small minority of their customers, I'd guess).  All Lionel locos will have the option for Bluetooth control by a phone or tablet app.

I didn't say they are but IMO they eventually will.  Why produce hardware if you can let the consumer purchase hardware, by the means in way of a smart device, in which Lionel does not have to produce at all and makes updates and fixes via an APP update.

Well it's sure is clear that MTH will abandon the hand held, to bad.

As retired tech guy I wanted to get away from ip addresses, routers, wifi, etc. and just enjoy model railroading. I guess I will keep the MTH engines I have and not buy any more. Will support manufactures that support the whole spectrum of the hobby. The Lionel Chief Plus looks interesting.

Hope I don't have to change scales !!  Might have to go 2 rail and NCE or ...

Last edited by Tom Q Fan

Well, I like my DCS remote, but most can still operate with a standard transformer. However, in the future after all the DCS remotes become scarce and hard to find.....

If someone wants a remote to operate PS2-3 in command mode using a handheld remote, DCC might be an option. Then again, I think it requires direct current to operate that way.

Penn-Pacific posted:

Well, I like my DCS remote, but most can still operate with a standard transformer. However, in the future after all the DCS remotes become scarce and hard to find.....

If someone wants a remote to operate PS2-3 in command mode using a handheld remote, DCC might be an option. Then again, I think it requires direct current to operate that way.

Yes I was thinking the same since PS3 is DCC.. so you could use your current NCE or Digitrax, MRC, Bachmann controller, if it would work.  Aren't the configuration variables on DCS command the same as DCC? I wish everything 3 rail was DCC. That said, eventually the DCC companies will be going Tablet or phone too.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Kerrigan posted:

Someone is already ordering a lot of replacement wheels from MTH, if/when they can get hold of Midge, or get a call returned.

Got that covered, got some on the last order.  Thinking about getting a couple more...   I figure they'll be like gold in about three-four years.

Anyone  have the MTH part number for the wheel assembly for the old remote?

Still like our decision to "keep it simple Superstar!" and keep on running the layout with the current transformers, remotes, TIU software release 4.3, and pass on the modern WiFi/Ipad/? world.  My tech knowledge is at that DCS 4.3 level and at this point, no sense in straining the few brain cells left functioning at this age. ;-)

Enjoy it firing up and working right after sitting for a month at a time.  Yes, yes, I do have to let the batteries charge up first.

It's interesting where this is all heading; train control via brain waves alone.

Ranger Rick posted:

I must say that I am not sure any of this really helps to get new people into the hobby. I know that the younger generation is more tech minded and your argument might be that would spur interest, but I believe if they are interested in technology, they will not funnel that into trains. There are too many other high tech things to get into and spend one's money on.

I also believe that you have just added another layer of complexity and cost. If I had not already been hooked from my original trains from the 50's, then enamored by the sounds and control enabled by the systems presented in the 90's, I would look at the cost of the trains themselves, then see the cost of an operating system, power source, a wifi unit, and then add to that a device not included with the manufacturer of the system and would balk at even beginning. Cost would be a major factor...all of that seems overwhelming to me. I have gotten into it because it was little steps at a time. If a hobby store sales person would be asked what I needed to start running these trains and he would go through and show me each item, my response would be "so, where are the drones with cameras? I think I will try one of those."

Rick

 

We did get one of the three grandsons a little  interesting in running the conventional  trains with the transformer throttle or the DCS remote controller for the steam engine, but when I showed him the app screen for the IPad, he wasn't too interested in it.

MartyE posted:
Kerrigan posted:

Has anyone yet experienced their WiFi operations being hijacked by someone else on their IPad?  Is it possible to be hacked?

Only if they have the network password can they hijack operations. No different than a remote jumping on board.

Hack it?  Who would want to?

A "friend" who wants to mess with your head - - - :-)

I have installed the second wifi to the second tiu and my Beta site is now fully operational. As I am learning which way to swipe the screen, I am learning to like the iPhone more. The remote is still kept handy though. As that old saying goes " Try it You'll like it". So far I like the phone better as it's easier to hold. I did find another application for the top of the ZW though.

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At the end of the Model Train Day, I like the new MTH DCS, Wi-Fi APP.  The best part for my train room it has brought my three adult children, back into the hobby. They are thirty something. 

Two Phones MTH DCE WIFi

The android phone on the left has been turned off by the phone company and it still works with the Premium MTH DCS • DCS  Wi-Fi and the phone on the right is my every day smart phone.  Things in this hobby can be very expensive, but this system is a bargain.

The APP is $25.00 and the old smart phone was free.  Wi-Fi Interface Unit is about $160.00. So I have been asking my friends and neighbors to give me their old phones.  I usually do not do much in my train room during the summer, but with this new MTH - APP • I have been spending the evenings in the train room running trains with the MTH / DCS Wi-Fi.

The best tip from MTH Electric Trains is on the back cover of all their recent catalogs.

Back Cover 2017 Vol 2

"Visit your local M.T.H. Retailer and run Pro-Sound 2.0 or 3.0 locomotives with your phone."

This is what is working for my Man Cave and Train Room, hooking up with my local hobby shop.

Gary

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First off, while I have a large house there's no place for a big layout, and I must admit my enthusiasm for trains has abated markedly in the last few years.  I have some "carpet centrals" laid out which I enjoy running as do the grand kids when they visit.  I never liked the DCS remote, with its soft key abbreviations and being technically-minded I bought the Android basic wi-fi app, which required buying the WIU.  I've since upgraded to the premium app, and since unlike other software providers MTH doesn't offer much in the way of a help manual, sprang for Barry's book.  From which I learned that if I wanted to control my Legacy engines I would need a TIU-Legacy cable.   

At any rate, I'm underwhelmed so far, although I recognize its advantages and potential.  [Update] By accident I noticed that under the engine settings there's a line that displays "edit engine softkey names" where the generic sound names can be edited to be more descriptive.  I previously searched in the pdf Wi-Fi Companion to see if such a function was available but couldn't find any mention.

Last edited by pretorius

I still like the control of my trains using the handles of my Z4000 transformers. When you're moving trains into and out of sidings you can concentrate on train movement and not be distracted by having to look down at your phone or ipad. Signal strength is never an issue nor is having the latest version of the TIU. I use Tortoise switch machines controlled from a panel. How do you do that on a phone? What about operating accessories eg. the culvert set or log and coal loaders, let alone magnetic gantry cranes. I was told by Andy Edelman, the marketing head at MTH that the DCS remote will be discontinued because the "firmware" is out of date and it would be too costly to update it. Parts for the existing remotes will be available, especially those that deal with the rotary wheel. In summary, I guess I'm just a strong believer in the KISS Principle. (Keep it simple stupid)

MartyE posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

 The marketplace will make that decision after the deed is done.

Or as in most cases, the manufacturer will make that decision for you.  In MTH's case and to a large extent Lionel's, there is really no where else to go.

Seriously, I'm not into WiFi to control my layout. I and several I know like and enjoy the handheld remotes. If they go away and personally for me, no more new purchases, and when and if my last handheld remote dies, time for a new hobby. Yes, I'll save a bundle of money also.

 

Turbgine, one does not have to look at the remote after you've been using it awhile.  It is much easier to move a train into and out of sidings with DCS than conventional, unless you clear the power dostrict or, as my pre-DCS layout, the track is cut into many toggle-switched blocks.

I despise the wifi, since one always has to look at the tablet and scroll through pages.

RJR posted:

Turbgine, one does not have to look at the remote after you've been using it awhile.  It is much easier to move a train into and out of sidings with DCS than conventional, unless you clear the power dostrict or, as my pre-DCS layout, the track is cut into many toggle-switched blocks.

I despise the wifi, since one always has to look at the tablet and scroll through pages.

I agree with this 100%. With DCS/TMCC/Legacy one has so much better low speed control for switching maneuvers than is possible with a transformer handle.

I've used the DCS app and really have no qualms about it. I think it's easier to use when adjusting settings than the remote, as I don't have to scroll through a bunch of menus or remember soft key acronyms.

To each is own though. 

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