The Frustrations Of S Gauge/Scale

I have been into S since 1955, but dropped out in the late 90's just as Lionel was making all the cool steam engines. Now that I am back into S, the steam engines are gone (except for the Berkshires and Northerns) and there seems to be only modern stuff being made. Since my modelling era is 37-52, none of the modern stuff works for me.

When I worked for Lionel back in 2007, it seemed like there might be a chance to give them some S input, so I polled every collector and dealer that I knew. Every one of them wanted something different than the other one did. There was no way I could produce a united front.

But that was OK, since Lionel didn't listen to my suggestions anyway.

Trying to grow another scale during these doldrum times is a tough road to travel. I invested time & money is  AF S scale and too many problems to make it worthwhile. Some problems were with basic designs I thought. Incompatible couplers, electrical pickup that was not reliable, engine driving wheels that were two piece and came apart and limited engines available made me quit.

From my own point of view there is more S-scale stuff in the market place today than I COULD AFFORD TO BUY! I have just about every example of a Gilbert Flyer loco, cars etc. I have a hugh amount of American Models, S-Helper, S-Scale America, and Lionel Flyer.  No way could I have it all nor would I want it all. I appreciate anything new that comes along. I remember the dry times from 65 to 79, but I was still able to find S- scale stuff and add to my collection.

Major posted:

From my own point of view there is more S-scale stuff in the market place today than I COULD AFFORD TO BUY! I have just about every example of a Gilbert Flyer loco, cars etc. I have a hugh amount of American Models, S-Helper, S-Scale America, and Lionel Flyer.  No way could I have it all nor would I want it all. I appreciate anything new that comes along. I remember the dry times from 65 to 79, but I was still able to find S- scale stuff and add to my collection.

I could say the same thing.  I probably even qualify for the "too much invested in S to change scales" type statements.

But my personal hoard of "not much available in S" acquired over the past 34 years doesn't help to attract new people into the scale.

Maybe after I'm gone, someone rummaging through the dumpster where my stuff will likely wind up will discover the wonders of S.

Rusty 

Amen Rusty, as much as I enjoy S myself, l have no idea of what would draw more people to the S gauge. I guess I, we can enjoy what is available, wish for more, and regret that more folks don't realize what they are missing.

Ray

I got in to S gauge by buying a box of "junk"  of S gauge engines and put together 4 runners. Later I traded them back to the antique dealer for Lionels.

In my case, my love for postwar link coupler AF goes back to my childhood, and I have a very small 4x6 layout for it. However, my main layout and Christmas layouts are "O". The main reason is lack of scenics, especially buildings, for "S". On my layout I have a few "detailed" Plasticville structures, but they look too large. I also have some Woodland Scenics and Walthers Ready-Built "HO" structures that look OK. Arttista makes some nice "S" figures, but they are expensive. The big recent plus has been the 1950s 1:64 scale cars with the opening doors and hoods. They are great, and only around $7. each. However, I'm happy enough running my small "S" layout, and looking for more "HO" buildings that look in the "OK range" (I carry a S-size car and a figure to shows with me to "test" this). 

"But my personal hoard of "not much available in S" acquired over the past 34 years doesn't help to attract new people into the scale."

Bingo.

Nailed it.

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Big help. I learned quickly: It was best to be in S before I was. I searched and watched eBay for months and months (years, actually) to find ONE, and it ended up coming from a private sale, as I recall. Trouble is, I WANTED a small fleet of them for my theme.... years to find ONE? (And spending over $500 to get it?)

SO, in view of when I was trying to do with S scale in the scale realm: Sure, there had been LOTS of stuff that had been made (past tense) in brass and otherwise, but try finding it. When you DID find a desirable brass piece (or plastic)... you had to pay through the nose for it (private seller pricing) or mortgage the farm on eBay because of the starved market, thus you had to outbid other desperate S scaler's.

It was truly one of the most frustrating scales I've ever attempted to model in.

After making the decision to return to HO, in a short time I amassed MORE than I need to equip a medium sized a HO layout set in the early-mid 1960s. AND, seeing as I will be using the same layout to for dual era's, I also quickly (relatively speaking) amassed more than enough equipment to equip my late 1880s era. Try doing either in scale S.  Ain't happenin'.

I wish it were not so, but the above was what I experienced.

Andre

laming posted:

"

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Andre

Got that right:

And the sad thing is, if you bring this up to the S Scale crowd, that's why they'll say "another one is not needed..."   I get the "Overland made one 25 years ago" excuse every time I bring up a scale USRA Light or Heavy Mikado.

Equally upsetting is AM won't consider making a Mikado drive for their USRA Pacific boiler because Lionel flooded the market for Mikado's.  Yeah, at least over a decade ago...

Rusty

I am reposting my reply here as this is a better place for this discussion.

Hi Francine

I agree it is simple ECONOMICS.  If you do not grow the market and people keep aging out of the market, the market will dry up and you will never get a Hudson, a GS4 or an SD40.  Now if you expand your market and more dollars are flowing in then you can do more things.  So say new tooling allocations are set at 10% of total sales.  if sales are $10 then they will allocate $1 to new tooling if sales go to $100 then they will allocate $10 to new tooling.  If bringing in new people by building Thomas, Harry Potter or Hot wheels increases sales to $1000. Then they will have $100 for new tooling.  Now the ECONMICS will decide if they should invest the new tooling in Fantasy or in Classic.  The odds are they will do a mix as they want to continue to pull in new blood but they want that new blood to move to the more expensive classic line.

Anyway I have tried my best to explain why both are needed.  I appreciate that those on this forum are of course vested in the classic line (Gilbert, Flyerchief, Legacy), but they need to understand that in order to get new tooling dedicated to what they want, the market needs to expand.

--Rocco--

Rusty Traque posted:

laming posted:

"

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Andre

Got that right:

And the sad thing is, if you bring this up to the S Scale crowd, that's why they'll say "another one is not needed..."   I get the "Overland made one 25 years ago" excuse every time I bring up a scale USRA Light or Heavy Mikado.

Equally upsetting is AM won't consider making a Mikado drive for their USRA Pacific boiler because Lionel flooded the market for Mikado's.  Yeah, at least over a decade ago...

Rusty

Where AM's argument falls down is that if they did a Mikado, it would be with either scale or high rail wheels. Flyonel could not say that.

Any prototype offered as a brass model would be welcomed in Plastic or cast metal. A tiny run made ages ago is a mute point. Besides, they were usually unpainted in that era. A plastic/die cast metal run would be offered in many roadnames. Take it out of the box and put it on your layout.

I heard this argument too, and it is invalid.

RoyBoy posted:

I have been into S since 1955, but dropped out in the late 90's just as Lionel was making all the cool steam engines. Now that I am back into S, the steam engines are gone (except for the Berkshires and Northerns) and there seems to be only modern stuff being made. Since my modelling era is 37-52, none of the modern stuff works for me.

Yes.  I've been toying with the idea of getting into S myself, but this has been the main factor that holds me back.

I know what it would take to get more people involved, but I fear that the manufacturers won't give the  market & potential market what they want.  They want real trains that aren't available in S.  If a child sees the parent running trains, that child is more likely to develop an interest in them (which will disappear during teen and early 20s) but many return.

I agree with Rusty that a $100 S gauge train would be a "toy box queen" and probably not stimulate much interest later in life.  A full layout would, even if only the standard 4 x 8.

Rocco posted:

I am reposting my reply here as this is a better place for this discussion.

Hi Francine

I agree it is simple ECONOMICS.  If you do not grow the market and people keep aging out of the market, the market will dry up and you will never get a Hudson, a GS4 or an SD40.  Now if you expand your market and more dollars are flowing in then you can do more things.  So say new tooling allocations are set at 10% of total sales.  if sales are $10 then they will allocate $1 to new tooling if sales go to $100 then they will allocate $10 to new tooling.  If bringing in new people by building Thomas, Harry Potter or Hot wheels increases sales to $1000. Then they will have $100 for new tooling.  Now the ECONMICS will decide if they should invest the new tooling in Fantasy or in Classic.  The odds are they will do a mix as they want to continue to pull in new blood but they want that new blood to move to the more expensive classic line.

Anyway I have tried my best to explain why both are needed.  I appreciate that those on this forum are of course vested in the classic line (Gilbert, Flyerchief, Legacy), but they need to understand that in order to get new tooling dedicated to what they want, the market needs to expand.

--Rocco--

Back to economics 101:  Economics is the allocation of scarce resources.  If you allocation the small amount that is invested by Lionel/MTH into child's toys, there will be little to nothing for FlyerChief/Legacy, which would starve S into extinction (I dont see much if anything new from American Models).  I understand getting kids involved, but cheap crap is cheap crap and the kids of today are much more sophisticated electronically then the kids of years ago.  A cheap set will be a toy box special that gets broken and forgotten quickly.  However, if a child sees a functioning layout, even if only 4 x 8, that makes an impression especially when well detailed with nice scenery.

Feed the child market, not much return, while starving the S general market would destroy it, maybe permanently.

Quick Casey said:

"I heard this argument too, and it is invalid."

If in reference to my statements, I wasn't making an argument, I was stating what is to me a fact, Jack.

Simply put:

The variety and availability in scale S SUCKED, and it eventually drove me from the scale.

Bluntly put:

I've long ago given up on the scale and quit wasting my ever-shortening time (I have an unknown expiration date) on trying to pursue such a dead-in-the-water scale.

I really wish it weren't so, but that's the way it was/is in my modeling world.

Andre

Francine posted:

(I dont see much if anything new from American Models).  

While American Models hasn't exactly been a ball of fire, I think we still have to give them their due.

I think given the financial resources available to them, they've actually out produced Lionel and MTH combined.

Rusty

Through time on this really continuing subject and conversation us "Old Guys" keep talking about trains-for-kids to bring them into the hobby. Thomas, Harry Potter, and Polar Express.  And we see Lionel introduce sets for Snooby Doo, Mickey Mouse, and Hot Wheels in O the 2019 catalog. 

It is my feeling that Lionel is targeting grandparents not kids for these train sets.  That means "Old Guys" do the buying. 

Us "Old Guys" got our first trains when we were young.  When we got older we mostly put them away for years and years until as adults we could enjoy them again as a hobby.  They are no longer toys for us, but how we enjoy each other and these expensive items in our spare time.

My point is targeting kids to bring people into the hobby won't help our generation.  We need to find a way to bring people into the hobby who are the age we were when we got the trains out and started collecting and operating our childhood trains. 

I don't think Lionel, American Models, and MTH can achieve this by what they produce.  I think we have to do this by bringing in people in their late 30's and early 40's, who have the disposable income to afford today's cost of playing trains. 

Simply, it's us not them who must work to enlarge the number of people in S and all gauges.

To do this we need to invite these new people to our shows, our homes, and our club sites and show them how much fun it is to participate in this hobby.     

I love Studebakers and "S" gauge.

I sense a theme here...

laming posted:

Quick Casey said:

"I heard this argument too, and it is invalid."

If in reference to my statements, I wasn't making an argument, I was stating what is to me a fact, Jack.

Andre

I wasn't commenting on your post, but the many statements I heard around S conventions that a Manufacturer like AM for example won't tool up for an S-2 as we're using in this case, because it was produced before. Brass is one thing, but a mass produced model that is available on a more or less constant basis are two different things. 80% of the S-2 market would be high rail, which pays the bills, and the scale people could benefit as well. Whether it be the USRA Mikado, the Daylight, an S-2, all of which were offered in brass shouldn't stop anyone from bring it out in plastic or metal. A high railer isn't going to buy a brass GS4. But if it was offered mass produced in high rail and scale fully decorated, it's a win win.

I'm just saying if it was available in brass long ago, that shouldn't stop anyone from producing it in a more affordable medium. Kudos to AM for NOT having a proprietary command control system. I'd rather have DCC any day.

Quick Casey:

Ah, NOW I see what you're saying and agree 100%. Of course, in regards to me, new S scale is rather moot now.

Carl:

LOL!   That's was good. IF I had the inventory you have, I would still be in S! Love your stuff and I love your layout. You've truly designed a convincing S scale layout that looks like it can run whatever and look great doing it!

All fer now. Off to Fort Smith to buy some layout building materials.

Andre

You know, it all really depends on what "rules" you use to "play" with your trains.

If all you want to do is run independent loops of good looking trains without regard to era or prototype accuracy,  there is no problem with S (or O for that matter).

If you want to do in S what Andre is doing in HO, that isn't going to happen.

If you do what I did, start out with a concept that matched  what was available, and modify the concept as newer things come on the market, that is doable in S.   You can run on a timetable, operate with a card order system, detail your scenery, refine your track plan, easily modify existing HO industrial structures by simply enlarging the doorways and/or adding a foundation to produce a detailed urban landscape and find enough to keep busy every day.  

If you want big sweeping scenic vistas that dwarf the trains, that is a lot easier to do in N than it is with larger size trains.

Might I simply suggest that you do SOMETHING you enjoy, and have fun!

LittleTommy

Yes, I am a Studebaker fan but don't have any except a cool 1/43 model of a Starlite coupe. Had one of those. Cool car.

Joe Hohmann posted:

In my case, my love for postwar link coupler AF goes back to my childhood, and I have a very small 4x6 layout for it. However, my main layout and Christmas layouts are "O". The main reason is lack of scenics, especially buildings, for "S".

Lots of buildings in S, definitely not as many as HO, but still way more than my layout could handle....

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http://www.btsrr.com

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Carl Tuveson posted:

I love Studebakers and "S" gauge.

I sense a theme here...

Add me to the list of Studebaker and S gauge guys.

And I have some 1/64th scale Studebakers on my S- scale layout!

Studebaker's aside, I've always cautioned folks that want to get into S that it is a tough scale to get into.  If one is looking for instant gratification, it ain't happenin' here. 

Sometimes, it seems that this should be S scales theme song, as performed by Thomas's original Mr. Conductor:

Rusty

I came into railroading 3 years ago with little knowledge other than HO was too small for me and O was too big.  I was 47 and at a stage in my life when I was prepared to spend real money on a hobby.  I chose S and have stayed in S despite the heaps of naysaying I read on the many online S groups/forums that I follow (I am glad I didn't read that stuff before I jumped in or I may have missed out on a scale that I am really enjoying). 

I have spent a significant sum of money on S. Only one item was brass, so it has been lots of stuff not just a few expensive ones. I have a close friend the same age who has spent as much as me and then some on S.  Despite that, there is still plenty of stuff out there plus more to come from AM, Des Plaines, River Raisin and Lionel that he and I will buy.  I say all this to make the point that we feel that the potential of a cash infusion into this scale is going to come from people at our stage of life rather than talking about how we get kids interested.  If I want the small few manufacturers still producing engines and rolling stock in S to stay viable, then I'd prefer a cohort of 45-50 year-old newcomers with discretionary income who plan to spend large amounts now and for the next 15-20 years and then likely lesser sums on into retirement.  I have fun watching little kids and teenagers enjoy my club's layout at shows, but they are not the priority among people I am trying to get into S.

And there is plenty to sell people on.  If I sit down with someone who wants to start up in S and they tell me how much $ they want to invest initially and what their interests are, I bet I can have that money mostly allocated to available track, structures, rolling stock and engines by the end of the day.  Unless they have a dealbreaker desire for a certain item never produced in S that would keep them out of the scale entirely, then I am convinced based on my interactions at shows, conventions and online they could get well set up in S with an initial investment plus have a list of items they could purchase down the road. 

One newcomer's view. Thanks.

I feel basically the same as Chuck. I am a bit older but spend a lot of money each year on new products. What may not be evident at first is how much in the way of Pull Through sales selling a S gauge Legacy engine can create for Lionel. Pull Through is a product Lionel would sell to that S gauger that was not created with S gauge investment funds. Examples would be transformers, power bricks, Legacy components, LCS components, iPhone paid apps and some O scale accessories.

In addition to Chuck's 40 somethings there are hard working people with a lot of disposable funds who take early retirement. Many had trains as a kid and now figure to spend time on it as a hobby. Most default to HO or O gauge. One of the challenges is the major layout builders do not even suggest S gauge as a choice. If we had more top end products S would be an easier sell. Each one of these high net worth entrants to S gauge is worth at least 50 of the youngsters. But I want both types to enter S gauge.

My main frustration with S is the paltry variety of prefabricated track items offered for sale by all manufacturers of this equipment- -most notably, limited curved track radii, crossovers, and conventional turnout numbers; no curved turnouts; and no single or double slips. This situation virtually precludes entry-level S modelers from designing a layout that features realistic closely spaced track loops, sidings, and spurs.

Our layouts are O scale hi-rail or 3RS, whichever is appropriate.  Many years ago, K-Line offered a steam engine in what they called (I think) semi-scale at 1/64.  Three rail operation, but 1:64.  I've met a couple of S scale modelers who use certain O-27 freight cars after removing the three rail trucks and installing S gauge trucks.  Is that a common practice?  John

The first S gauge Legacy engine made by Lionel was the former K-Line BigBoy slightly modified. It is about 1/60 scale so it is slightly large compared to my other 1/64 scale engines. But then again, the BigBoy is supposed to be, well, BIG.

Bob G, excellent points. The situation with gigh rail S gauge track continues to be frustrating. Most of what you list is available in code 100 or smaller for the scale operators. Us high railers are not so fortunate. For my layout I had all the turnouts and crossings custom made from .138 rail. Not something the typical operator would take on. Through several design evolutions I was able to eliminate the need for curved and slip switches.

banjoflyer posted:

rattler21 posted:

Our layouts are O scale hi-rail or 3RS, whichever is appropriate.  Many years ago, K-Line offered a steam engine in what they called (I think) semi-scale at 1/64.  Three rail operation, but 1:64.  I've met a couple of S scale modelers who use certain O-27 freight cars after removing the three rail trucks and installing S gauge trucks.  Is that a common practice?  John

I think the K-Line 1/64 (sort of) engine was the Big Boy that was produced for S by Lionel. K-line also offered 3/16 scale (sort of) cars with S trucks installed. I had a bunch of them but sold them all off. Wish I had a bucket full of those trucks...they were great!

Mark

K-Line's S gauge trucks look very much like American Models trucks.

Even though I recently sold nearly all of my 25-year collection of S-gauge (ranging from the simplest like an AF 350 Royal Blue, to Legacy, and the latest in JMRI Decoder Pro customized DCC) and I closed my 15+ year repair business, I’m still in the hobby and enjoy it.  The "purge" was my idea and I realize now it was an overdue and welcomed reset.  Less to bother with or offload later, back to basics on a few things, some new ones for fun, and its trains again for me with a lighter easier going approach. Almost like 1994, but with a modern twist and a lot more knowledge.  Last week some of the guys came over to run trains on my "new" postwar track layout, we had a ball.  I also went to a club meeting and now there's a show on the radar for this week.  Here’s to continued S-gauge fun together.  It's the people as well as the products that make this hobby so endearing and enjoyable.  

PS "S" is still my favorite model train gauge or scale, even with all of its s-hortcomings or fru-s-trations. And along the way I've owned, operated, and dabbled in n, HO, On30, O, G, and Lego as well.  Actually I haven't met a train I didn't like -- it just happens that I like them best when they're 1:64 or life-size.  

Shovel all the coal in.  Gotta keep 'em rollin'.

Dave

Sgaugian posted:

Even though I recently sold nearly all of my 25-year collection of S-gauge (ranging from the simplest like an AF 350 Royal Blue, to Legacy, and the latest in JMRI Decoder Pro customized DCC) and I closed my 15+ year repair business, I’m still in the hobby and enjoy it.  The "purge" was my idea and I realize now it was an overdue and welcomed reset.  Less to bother with or offload later, back to basics on a few things, some new ones for fun, and its trains again for me with a lighter easier going approach. <snip>

Dave

Now you can say "O-boy! O-boy!" when you come across a clean 303 Atlantic, ... just like the early days. 

Bob

You are right Dave, even with all the limitations, S is a great scale!  The people too!

Bob,

How right you are, and funny that you should mention the joy of a 303*.  Of the four engines I decided to keep out of the dozens that I sold, one of them is the 303 that ran under our tree before a 1st birthday was celebrated for me, any for many years after. 

*But also from some of the latest and greatest.  I'm now the happy owner and operator of three very recently purchased AF FC-BT engines.   Back to the future, or forward to the past?  You decide.   

Dave

Francine,

I continue to disagree but respect your opinion.  If S is to survive it must grow.  A investment in some new kid items may grow the market creating new revenue.  This is Economics 101.  If your base is shrinking and you do not offer any new products it will continue to shrink because the demand begins to shrink as people age out of the market.  Now I do agree that some of the people interested in the Polar Express were parents and grandparents who purchase it for younger kids.  Those extra sales only helped S and did not hurt it.  Without the polar express we may never have gotten the Berkshire made.  Thomas the Tank Engine, Harry Potter etc can only help sales and thus help the future.  (Maybe not in year one but may years 2, 3 and 4).

I'm just saying keep an open mind to the possibility that further development  in this area could help S not hurt it. 

--Rocco--

I have wondered why, given that they have the docksider mechanism, Lionel did not add a Thomas the Tank Engine body and test the demand for the product.  Since they already have tooling for Thomas in O,  a computer could  scale it down at a lesser cost than starting from "scratch"

I am at a loss at many of the decisions that Lionel makes, but the current mix of American Flyer rolling stock has more items that I want than I can afford to buy.  I guess they are marketing to folks like me.  

LittleTommy

Little Tommy et al.,

Allow me to chime in on the Thomas issue.  Yes, Lionel has the Docksider chassis.  BUT.  It's way too large to allow an S proportioned Thomas shell to fit.  And yes, they could probably shrink the O shell, but I already did that the old school way, that is, by hand.  A tank engine like Thomas is much smaller than a Docksider.  To modify the chassis to fit into the Thomas shell would not be easy, especially since folks would want more than a simple DC motor.  Legacy would NOT be possible without major shrinkage of their circuit boards.  Here's what a Docksider chassis looks like after major surgery:

And I mean MAJOR.  Notice the blunted ends and brass front bracket.  Even the smoke unit had to be omitted, leaving only the chuff mechanism.  Also notice the motor itself had to have the bracket and motor top ground to fit.  Even the two-piece side rods had to be soldered together.  I suppose the chuff could be done electronically, but again, Lionel isn't known for their small boards.  Now, DCC... ;>

And with the properly proportioned shell:

Then, there's Annie and Clarabel to think about.  Keeping everything in proportion makes the train much too small to fit on a standard DS chassis.  

Yes, a Thomas could be made on a Docksider chassis, but it wouldn't be proportioned well enough for most S gaugers.  For kids, perhaps.  I made another one using a less modified chassis, but it's not nearly as well proportioned. Even so, I still had to chop the back of the chassis quite a bit and relocate the simple circuit board:

Using a simple push toy as the shell, here's how it compares to the proportioned shell (and you should see how chopped up the shell is):

Would it bring more folks into S?  I highly doubt it since Thomas has been done in just about every scale already.  I don't think Lionel is ready to invest more in S and converts would need track, transformers and more than just Thomas.  He's part of the Island of Sodor, populated by more than him. 

As far as attracting younger folks to our favorite scale, that's up to us as individuals using what we already have as a start.  Offering more modern equipment is a good start.  My 6 year old grandson LOVES running trains on my layout using the FlyerChief controllers.  Will that transfer into an interest in S?  Only time will tell.  For now, he and I are having fun, and that's what it's all about, isn't it?

BTW, Thomas and I will be at this Sunday's train show in Novi, MI.  Stop by and say hi to us!