The King is Dead? Long Live the King!

It's king for me, I don't have much PW stuff left...

I really don't think that there is one King.  For those that love/collect/operate Prewar, or Postwar or modern, or American Flyer, or Ives, or Marx, or  (fill in your favorite),  the object of their passion will always be King.

Andy

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

There are enough trains on the market (prewar, postwar, modern era, Lionel, MTH, etc.) and more coming yearly to satisfy everyone.  

While the majority of the OGR forum seems to address modern scale trains, the information from these brilliant individuals serves as a great inspiration for the rest of us.

The hobby and particularly running 3 rail trains had expanded to allow for the small 4x8 setup to the professional layouts. Embrace it all.

Life is short, enjoy your trains.

Postwar is still alive, but decidedly no longer king as it was 1946 through let's say 1994.  The MPC era certainly had its day, and with the introduction of scale models from Weaver, Right of Way, etc. in the 1990s, the long and winding road to scale modeling in three rail began,  and was accelerated by the invention of TMCC and high quality Railsounds in the latter half of the 1990s.  Thus we've had a 25 year plus era of command control, digital sounds, and scale detailing that equals the length of time if not the huge volume of postwar trains. I personally own only a few postwar originals but lots of postwar reissues.

I really started into this hobby in 1998. I own zero postwar trains. I just have little interest in them. The MTH Premier line and especially their articulated scale locomotives really got me excited and more into this hobby.

I avoided O gauge into my 30's because all I knew about it was post war and MPC era Lionel that my Uncle had running on a layout under his HO layout.  It was just not my generation growing up with HO and watching real trains run by my house at least 10 times a day or more.  I have always wanted my trains to look like the ones I see in real life.  Seeing scale O is what made me make the jump into this gauge.

However, now that I have been a TCA member for a little over 20 years, I have come to appreciate post war Lionel for what it is and was.  I have a few collectors pieces that I enjoy, but big scale trains on broad curves has always been my predominant interest in this hobby regardless of scale. 

I also have come to appreciate, Auburn, Kusan, Bing, Dorfan, Marx, Flyer, Ives, and lots of other manufacturers as well.  The greatest part of the hobby is that it is a big tent with room for lots of different interests. 

Seems to have been a lot more interest in small layouts over the past several years, maybe due to fewer basements and millions of people living in town houses.   

A typical Post War engine will, even at its slowest smooth operating speed, traverse  a 6 to 8 foot straight run in a matter of  3 or 4 seconds, so not much fun to watch.  This may have helped push the popularity of the slower and smoother can motor engines, whether Command Control or Conventional.

When I was growing up in the early to mid 60s, 12 foot long layouts were not uncommon.

Mannyrock

Yesterday, I made the switch to running scale size cars behind my scale diesel locomotives. I was using postwar and traditional sized rolling stock before but now postwar rolling stock will be regulated to postwar locomotives.

im not ready to seep it off yet but I can say for certain I have purchased my last traditional sized rolling stock. It’s all scale from now on.

A quick look at recent Lionel catalogs will show that Lionel has all but abandoned the traditional line. Time to go with the flow.  Look at eBay values for traditional rolling stock. Operating condition postwar is selling by the pound. It’s over for postwar being the driving force of the hobby.  I’m going with the flow.

I left post war behind over twenty years ago and never looked back.

I like them all. Done.

Artie

I sold my Postwar off out of necessity back around 1990.  It wasn't a collection of minty-mint rarities, but rather a decent collection of runners.

I still miss it.  And the Ozone.

Rusty

From the late 80s (when I got into O gauge) through something like 2000, Postwar was hot around here, and many collectors/operators didn't seem that interested in anything else. The prices for Postwar had gone through the roof. At some local TCA meets, it seemed like all the members' attention was on the Postwar items, and not so much the newer stuff. A lot of the newer stuff was selling, but Postwar was the gold standard.

In the last 25+ years, a lot of those who were nuts about Postwar (and grew up with it) are gone, and technology and the move to scale has transformed the O gauge world. Certain Postwar, if it's in excellent condition, still brings high prices, but the rest has tumbled in value. There's far less interest in it, with most buyers these days wanting the latest features - refined sound systems, DC can motors with cruise, constant voltage directional lighting, electrocouplers, scale details and add-on parts, etc.

The nostalgia value of Postwar is still there for many, though, so it still has some allure, but it's not as widespread as it used to be.

My older brother was into pre- and post-war trains as well as my father-in-law.

I ran trains with them, and it was fun, but their trains never interested me.  When O scale trains started showing up, I though they were nice but it was not until RailSounds came alone that I really got into what was becoming model trains.

My brother and f-i-l would have said post war was king, and could provide several reasons why.  They are gone now, so for our family now modern is king.

@Madockawando posted:

A quick look at recent Lionel catalogs will show that Lionel has all but abandoned the traditional line. Time to go with the flow.  Look at eBay values for traditional rolling stock. Operating condition postwar is selling by the pound. It’s over for postwar being the driving force of the hobby.  I’m going with the flow.

Mad,

Are you sure?  With all due respect I don't see this.  Yes, the scale-sized stuff seems to occupy a little more of the catalog each year, but not a lot.

Lionchief, in all its forms, still provides traditional-sized things, and in fact seems to have a little more every year as well.

What's clearly long-gone are conventional-only controlled locomotives.  Some folks have a problem with this, including many WBB and RMT buyers.  The broader Lionel market apparently doesn't care.

Mike

I left HO, where money would buy you any prototype, and it might only be in brass, which meant more than l could afford, (by far), to seek out childhood desired Marx rolling stock l could not afford for childhood layout.   But in HO it had been done and modeled.  Even in that boom period fairly recently passed, every time somebody said "all the trains have been made", l sneered, if they were discussing three rail 0.   During the boom it looked like many would be made, but too much was duplicated and repetitive. Now l fear the market has shrunk, and while we are getting a new roadname variety in engines and cars, due to short runs, the market won't support anything approaching the HO prototype variety.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Mad,

Are you sure?  With all due respect I don't see this.  Yes, the scale-sized stuff seems to occupy a little more of the catalog each year, but not a lot.

Lionchief, in all its forms, still provides traditional-sized things, and in fact seems to have a little more every year as well.

What's clearly long-gone are conventional-only controlled locomotives.  Some folks have a problem with this, including many WBB and RMT buyers.  The broader Lionel market apparently doesn't care.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I do think so. Most of the traditional cars are gimmicky. Now, there is nothing wrong with that but if you want freight cars with traditional road names from Lionel then you have to go now with scale, at least in the newer catalogs.

Mike, are you sure?  There are tons of NIB conventional operating locos with can motors for sale.   Marios always has lots of them.  Williams, Bachman, RMT.  It looks like there is a lifetime of them.

Maybe there aren't many new ones in the latest catalogs, but I see the cost of the Command Control locos going so high that eventually the number of sales is going to be fewer and fewer.   The prices in the Lionel catalogs are, for the average middle class person, nearly off the charts.  ("Hey honey, good news.  I just bought Jr. a train set for Christmas, and it only cost $600!")

Just my thoughts.   I may be incorrect. 

Mannyrock

While I grew up with Post War stuff we could not afford a lot of it due to the outrageous prices during that time. I still have Post War and Newer Digital and Scale which I lean more towards. I like to think without Pre and Post War trains we may not have the models we now have today. So as Far as I am concerned it will always be king.

I agree, PW may no longer be King given the ability to run command control and scale sized equipment.

For myself I own some postwar - only because it was given to me.  The only PW I've actually purchased were a set of passenger cars from Madison Hardware when it was located in Detroit.   I do appreciate PW but it never took my fancy as some of the equipment was just to toy like for my taste. 

I came into O gauge in the 1990's due to Richard Kughn and the scale Hudson.  Then scaled offerings by Right of Way and others sealed the deal.

Like GG1 4877 I too experienced the constant running of real trains past our home both day and night.  Which is probably why the toy like features never appealed to me.   

@Mannyrock posted:

The prices in the Lionel catalogs are, for the average middle class person, nearly off the charts.  ("Hey honey, good news.  I just bought Jr. a train set for Christmas, and it only cost $600!")

Just my thoughts.   I may be incorrect.

Mannyrock

Manny,

I see where you're coming from, however I have to disagree with you in the most significant way.

Lionel trains have ALWAYS been expensive.  Too expensive in many people's minds, always.  From day one in 1900.  It's no different now.  Back in the day many, many people (the average middle class you speak of) bought Marx for their kids instead of Lionel for this reason.

I will say though that the scale part of the business is substantially more pricey today than the traditional part has ever been.  This is because it has more detail and features.  But traditional in this day and age is no more out of hand than it was in the 1920's, 50's or 70s.

My teenage experience buying Lionel, back in the 70's, involved constantly being bombarded by price increases.  Every month the new mail order catalogs added on a new adjustment for inflation.  Every single month.  (I still have a set of these catalogs that prove it.)

Is the glass today half full, or half empty?   Actually, it's what it's always been: both.

Mike

There is only one King..... ELVIS

@Lionelski posted:

I've just come to the realization that my beloved Post War Lionel has, for all intents and purposes, may no longer be King.

The vast majority of magazine articles and posts to the OGR Forum pertain to the more modern O gauge trains.

When you deduct the WW2 break, and 1969 (was there any real manufacturing that year?), Post War Lionel production was only 22 years. MPC, LTI, etc. has now been 51 years. Where has the time gone?

Your thoughts on this subject? Is scale and digital the new King?

My first thought is you are comparing apples to oranges.  "Mpc, LTI, etc. Has now been 51 years." You might as well have lumped prewar with the postwar if comparing time periods.

Mpc, Lti are distinct eras in themselves and should be compared separately like postwar and prewar. Only at the turn of the century did Lionel SERIOUSLY dive into the scale aspect and is the true beginning of the "modern era."

[after MTH had Lionel occurred a 3 million dollar loss in sales because Lionel wasn't "listening to the marketplace"]

With all the frauds back in the 1990s and the mostly bland colors of postwar Lionel, I never go into that stuff. I see it all the time at train shows and postwar does nothing for me. Not my cup of tea.

"King"...whateva...

like the modern stuff but older trains are cool as well!  

The King is Dead...Long Live the King!  In reality, history's Royal dynasties are oft times related.  I love both Prewar and PW, that's what I grew up with.  But when I saw my first Scale Caboose decades ago, it said, take me home, and I did.  Your long layouts with wide turns and slow rolling Scale items are realistic and beautiful, but we can't all do that.  In my small room my three level layout allows for multiple trains and lots of activity, but certainly not much scale. I recently discovered Tin, small tin, the 2600 series, and long ago bought MPC locomotives.   I even have some boxed up Standard Gauge that one of these days I will photograph and sell (hopefully right here).  The Kings are not dead, they reign over their Kingdoms well, and help each other whenever possible.  Long may you reign.

Good points Mike.  Thanks.

Mannyrock

Trains are like taste, you can't argue about preferences. In my heart, I love PW Lionel Trains lifelong. MPC and Modern Era Lionel were brief affairs but didn't last. LGB and Marklin HO remain dear if distant friends. MTH never even caught my eye. And K-Line, Weaver, Atlas--who?? wha??

I like the simplicity of the postwar and pre command control engines. So, the king is alive and well in my basement.

My philosophy: anything with metal wheels on metal rails is good. So, I have PW, modern/LTI/MPC, standard gauge, LGB, Aristo, Maerklin gauge 1 (plus one Maerklin HO set) and  PW and Lionel Flyer. Love them all. In the past, I sold some items and ultimately replaced what I sold.   My son likes N scale, HO, and Lionel Pre-War O gauge, e.g. the Red Comet set. My late father was a stamp dealer and collector, buying and selling collections. When he was alive we had stamps all over the house. My first job was getting paid to help him. Mom kept the records. I concluded there is a great deal of similarity between stamps and trains. Dad thought toy trains would lead me into doing advanced hands-on skills (he was a carpenter, auto mechanic and stone mason). However, I got only to being an apprentice with trains and it stopped there. I understand today, as a parent, my children can be introduced to certain interests I may have, but they react different from me. Good: they learn from me and I learn from them. Mark

@Mike M posted:

I like the simplicity of the postwar and pre command control engines. So, the king is alive and well in my basement.

You See Elvis in your Basement toooo????

I had postwar Lionel trains in the 1940s and 1950s that were given away when I got into HO for about a year. I returned to O gauge model railroading in the 1990s after a lapse of 39 years and part of what attracted me were scale-sized and detailed locomotives with sound - which is what I have bought ever since - especially MTH Premier. I've built two three-rail-scale layouts that I run only conventionally, so I don't really need or use "advanced" features. But I regard postwar Lionel engines as antiques and, for reasons of nostalgia, own only two of them, but do not run them. Partly due to high prices, I see fewer scale-sized modern trains being produced in the future. In my opinion, except as antiques, postwar trains are too far removed from present technology to maintain currency with today's new hobbyists. Nonetheless, I regard postwar trains as a viable part of the hobby for those who choose to focus on them...

MELGAR

i like mostly the modern traditional semi scale stuff like early 2000s trainsounds conventional stuff, lionchief and the like. i want one of those new lionchief engines with the voice streaming and record feature so bad man especially since i've heard the potential of this feature like story creation and downloadable content. i might get a little carried away and record dumb silly stuff. i know i want play the Fenix Transport theme song New Divide by Linkin Park through my engine which would be wicked if i could get a tier 4 with that feature so i could pretend its engine 5883 and could get some girl at school to be Fenix Starr and record saying something like" Fenix Transport 5883 is coming down hot , i've lost my brakes and my dynamics won't hold. my gauges are in the red and i'm starting to come apart over." but that's wishful thinking

@Madockawando posted:

Hi Mike,

I do think so. Most of the traditional cars are gimmicky. Now, there is nothing wrong with that but if you want freight cars with traditional road names from Lionel then you have to go now with scale, at least in the newer catalogs.

Now I see where you're coming from.  Agreed.

Q: Has Lionel conceded affordable, traditional-sized cars, with typical road names and liveries, to Menards?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Now I see where you're coming from.  Agreed.

Q: Has Lionel conceded affordable, traditional-sized cars, with typical road names and liveries, to Menards?

Mike

Has Lionel conceded the market for traditional sized freight cars with typical names and liveries? YES!

I don't know if the King is dead or not, but his subjects aren't holding up so well!

@Madockawando posted:

Has Lionel conceded the market for traditional sized freight cars with typical names and liveries? YES!

I dunno, Menards has produced plenty of fantasy liveries of prototype railroads...  None of which are typical paint jobs.  Here's a few:

Image: Menards Website

Rusty

I grew up with postwar. As the scale stuff came in, I bought a few things that could still make the 042 curves on my layout. The sounds became annoying after awhile, the fancy electronics stopped working, and those tiny details kept dropping off. I sold the new stuff and concentrated on postwar, MPC, and some of the better prewar diecast steamers. I've never stopped loving all the operating cars and accessories from the 50's. As to what is "King", it's whatever pleases you.

I'm with you artyoung, I enjoying serving my pw, making my own repairs, The High Speed trains of today that I see on the layouts on OGR are awesome. Enjoy what you like!! HAGD! Support are Military God Speed!

Postwar trains are great and all, but unlike most, I hold no childhood nostalgia for them. The childhood nostalgia I had were the trains Lionel and the other guys back then were making in the early 90’s.

I’ve stayed focused on modern era trains, and really have no regrets. They fit my desires, preferences, and price points (for the most part) than the old trains of decades long ago.

My two cents - recruitment and retention of new blood into the hobby is absolutely necessary for its survival, and certainly a new entrant needs all the bells and whistles. They grew up with cell phones, video games and the Internet. Plain Jane postwar Lionel is not gonna attract them to, nor keep them in, the hobby.

Postwar or whatever you want to call it is always going to be out there, it is one of those things where it is up to the people involved. I think modern Lionel (for lack of a better word) is aimed at command control (lionchief/legacy) and most of their rolling stock is scale except for 'fantasy cars'. Expecting new roadnames in traditional size is likely to be an exercise in futility, they are definitely aiming at the scale market. Menards is filling that niche it looks like. For those who like traditional size stuff there is a lot out there (not to mention the conventional classics Lionel had out there until not all that long ago).

For me, most of my stuff is conventional and traditional sized, it is what I had before my hiatus. Once I am up and running, I haven't decided what to do with my conventional engines, whether I'll regularly run them; if I do, then I will convert the ones I want to keep running regularly into command control if at all possible, the others I'll run conventionally (if I can scrape up the money for a zw-l when the time comes, I can run conventional engines using the built in powermaster capability). I am not a purist, I'll likely run what I like and not care scale or traditional sized, but that is me.

Over time I have no doubt that PW will continue to take a back seat to the more modern stuff, but there will always be people who like it, for simplicity or nostalgia (hey, there is something in car culture where young people, with some unique twists, are fascinated with 50's cars and modes of dress, kids who were born in the 80s and 90's...).

Postwar trains are alive and well in my home!

In fact, Elvis drops by from time to time to operate them!

If you enjoy postwar, there's sure no reason to feel bad about sticking with it. The trains of that period are what truly built this hobby in ALL scales because Lionel sets were by far the most popular trains during that period (I know because I lived it). They will always occupy a very important place in the history of this hobby.

I only have a very few postwar pieces today, and most of them are in display cases because they are important to me for personal reasons (the first locomotive my dad bought for me, for example).

All of the trains I buy and run these days are contemporary models, and virtually all of the motive power is either MTH PS3/DCS or Lionel TMCC/Legacy. That includes my tinplate trains. But I certainly will never forget my postwar roots, and thanks to some of my many early postwar trains that my mom saved for me while I was away from the hobby during my college and service years, those postwar trains inspired me to get my feet wet in the hobby again (in the early 1970s). I have never looked back!

For me Postwar, MPC etc. have been ways of designating when the product was made.  It is not a description of the type of the product.  The Postwar Lionel that I got as a kid leaned towards scale looking items. To me certain Postwar locos and the 6464 boxcars and the 3662 milk car still look at home with my more modern scale cars.

@Rusty Traque posted:

I dunno, Menards has produced plenty of fantasy liveries of prototype railroads...  None of which are typical paint jobs.  Here's a few:

Image: Menards Website

Rusty

Those paint schemes, fantasy or not, look great!  NH Joe

@New Haven Joe posted:

Those paint schemes, fantasy or not, look great!  NH Joe

I guess technically, they are "fantasy" trains but they are a different category from Disney or Star Trek trains, which are true fantasy. I would call the Menard's trains "non-prototype" paint scheme trains.

A book could be written on the debates of this subject.  I do believe that a great many of the operators of pre-war and post-war Lionel have passed on.  However, there has been a slow influx of folks who are attracted to those areas for reasons of size and affordability.

I have my Dad's postwar trains, and added a few cars to his trains he could never afford, as we had one wage earner and 10 children in my family.

Dick Maddox is the GREATEST CEO Lionel EVER had in my opinion.  He really brought Lionel into the scale market arena.  A lot of the posters here have never heard of Dick Maddox.  He and his follow on, Bill Bracy are responsible for ALMOST EVERY scale engine's tooling in Lionel's catalog.  Comic book man did little to nothing new as far as engines are concerned.  The current CEO has add nothing new except $140.00 cabooses, using MTH tooling.  Ridiculous!  But I digress!  My favorite trains are indeed scale detailed and sized pieces.  At the same time I am an early baby boomer.  I love the electronics, because my entire career was in the electronics field, first as a technician, then as a degreed engineer.  Lionel still sell stuff from the Clyde Coil/Lou Kovac era as LCS stuff.  Most of you have never heard of Lou Kovac!  Yet LCS lives on.  TPC 300 and TPC 400 are still great ways to run conventional locomotives.  So one can easily run the old with the new.

I agree with many - under Howard, Lionel is pricing themselves off the market, and if they don't restructure their prices, they may as well close their doors.  Sales will not generate enough net profit to keep the doors open. Lots of fresh overhead in Concord, NC.  Just look at the customer service center for an example - understaffed with relatively unskilled (for Lionel Electronics) personnel.  Their entire staff comprises young people, so Lionel can keep their payroll overhead to a minimum.  This isn't to bad mouth Dave, but at his age, he IS in charge of engineering!  Would you guess 25 to 28?

I may not post often, but I have been here forever!

@Allan Miller posted:

The trains of that period are what truly built this hobby in ALL scales because Lionel sets were by far the most popular trains during that period (I know because I lived it). They will always occupy a very important place in the history of this hobby.

I suppose "by far the most popular" is subject to different interpretations. Lionel trains were "popular," and very well known, but the number of kids who had them was quite limited. I only knew of two kids in my hometown who had any Lionel trains (and one of them was the son of the owner of the local hardware store that sold Lionel trains). Lionel was too expensive for most working families. My case was probably fairly typical. The O gauge trains I had were Marx.

As far as actual ownership, Marx O gauge trains were probably more "popular" than Lionel.

I have prewar, postwar, mpc, and modern Lionel. I run them all and enjoy them all. However for me nothing will ever replace prewar and postwar Lionel. The reasons are Joshua Lionel Cowen and Made In America. Its the memories as a kid playing countless hours with my O27 Lionel postwar train with my brother and sister. I don't care how many electronics (all the sounds drive me nuts after 5 minutes) and how realistic they make modern Lionel it will never replace postwar Lionel in my heart.

@donhradio posted:

Their entire staff comprises young people, so Lionel can keep their payroll overhead to a minimum.  This isn't to bad mouth Dave, but at his age, he IS in charge of engineering!  Would you guess 25 to 28?

I may not post often, but I have been here forever!

Don,

I'm from your age group, and share your technical background.  I agree on much of what you say.   It's right on target.

But I do have to disagree with your comments about the age of the Lionel staff, and their abilities.  Young people can be very good at things too, especially if you cultivate their interest and energy.  Over the years I've had many working for me and have been pleased with the work, energy and attitude of pretty near every last one.

Don't underestimate them and please don't call their skills, talents and training into question just because they're young, and in particular if you don't know them.

They are the future of this hobby, and are responsible for your care in your old age, and of course most importantly, everything else we hold dear.

Mike

Mike,

I actually think Dave has done wonders with the limited budgets he may receive.  He has SIGNIFICANTLY improved Lionel sound sets, added whistle smoke, bi-color marker lights and things still to come.  However Dave also (apparently) made the decision to limit smoke units in the Gensets from 3 to 1, as a cost cutting measure, because Lionel claimed nobody  actually noticed the smoke stacks turning on one by one, as the diesels were reved up.  Dave may have also made the hard decision to drop die cast bodies in favor of plastic engine bodies, (another cost cutting measure with savings not passed on to consumers) although Engineering does NOT set prices, and may not even be involved in prices except to build as the top brass order, and Dave discovered Lionel had to add weights to the units for performance reasons.  Don't mistake my comments for bashing Engineering in any way.

The gensets are just about the next engines to be delivered by Lionel, so we will shortly see how well they fare as compared to the diecast body originals.  Personally, I can't wait to receive my Bethlehem Steel Unit!

We talk about pre-war, post-war and modern era trains along with our preferences. To me the eras have become Made in the USA and not made in the USA. I’ve accumulated a lot of not made in the USA, but no more.  So, I don’t buy anything new.  A lot of my love for post-war is knowing where they were made.
I like all the bells and whistles of the new stuff, but they don’t displace what I feel for the older stuff.
Bottom line: whatever turns you on you should go for.
Alan