The Much Anticipated First Day for Non-TCA Members to Attend York has Arrived

OGR Webmaster posted:

eddie g posted:

I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.

ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.

Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

...............

Changing that would likely end the meet even more quickly.

I'm sure many members who are not already running a business would not want to go through the hassle to obtain a PA tax/resale number (whatever the proper term for it is) so that they then get to add the joy of collecting taxes and filing with the state at each meet. 

IIRC, there was a dealer who used to sell in the Orange Hall (maybe Moonson?) who has stated he needs to continually file even though he hasn't sold at the meet in several years.  The PA taxman is apparently not a believer of not filing = not selling anything unless you formally file to say you didn't sell anything.

If members need to obtain tax numbers and file every meet to have a 6 foot table space (which has been described as what would be required to allow the public in), I'm out.  I only tried selling  at York because it's very easy.  I never will be motivated to sell at any other meet for the same reason. 

"Silly" or not, that's the reality for the member halls to a great extent, I suspect.

-Dave

J Daddy posted:

I think the point is made about the failure to attract the public... but compared from last April 2016 to 2017 it was very busy!

I wonder how much the increase has to do with the improving financial portfolios of the demographic age group who attends . After all, with the stock market situation improving, folks have more disposable income and couple that situation with an ever growing confidence in and more favorable outlook on and less fear of the current economy, us "older" hobbyists are more likely prone towards spending more of what we have.

Would anybody care if the vendors like Lionel, MTH and OGR stopped coming to the York Show? 

I can find out anything about the mfgs. from online sources and other venues if needed. But the dealers and private sellers I buy from I may never see if it was not for the York show. 

I started coming to York before mfgs started coming and had a great time, if it was without them now I would not care. 

I like seeing the mfgs and seeing what is coming but if they keep crying they can just stay home. 

Dave

The ED would care. The fewer vendors the less income.

Pete

This is crazy weird. If mfgs. want to show up, fine. If you want the hobby too grow, you let everyone in. No discriminating. Such sillyness. Next

I just noticed that the Day Out with Thomas you may have no knowledge of came through Strasburg ending June 25 -- that's pretty close to the show's dates this year at least.

http://ticketwebdowt.com/

Perhaps this kind of thing could be tied into the model train show in the future?

Somehow Sir Topham Hat wandering the halls ... appeals to me.

Fair point on investment.  To clarify my point I meant that I'd hate to see the hobby go away so that all my collection went in the trash because noone cared about trains anymore.  I don't expect to make any money on the collection at this point, but I'd hate to just throw it away.  And I'd hate to see fine magazines like O Gauge Railroading no longer have anyone interested in reading it, truly.

On the debate of member halls being open also, and this is just my opinion, the two halls I saw were overwhelming and I am already a train nut!  Your average public person interested in the hobby would have plenty to see in the Purple Hall (Utz building).  I am a fairly avid model railroader and I did not walk away from the show feeling like I missed anything, nor did I need to see anything else.  I think member halls reserved for those truly dedicated and for those more rare items is certainly fine.  One Purple hall and one Black hall with a modular layout or two is an awesome train show in my book.

I found this interesting....While at my LHS, we were talking about the future of the hobby. I said that I was surprised there were no posters or flyers for the York show. To which I was told rather bluntly....Why would we want to advertise a show that is a direct competitor of ours. I thought it was a show to see new stuff, socialize, and yes buying something you can't find elsewhere. But I guess I'm wrong. I could not go to York due to some health issues. I still like and support my LHS.  

Here is my take on this.  Three plus hour drive from NJ.  traffic in the York area surprised me with its volume.  There was no signs anywhere pointing out where to go so I spent 30 minutes on the registration line before be told in a snarky way you need to be over there.  Over there also lacked signage but eventually after dealing with some older lady who was probably sitting on a thumbtack, I received the coveted green wrist band.  Made my way around the permitted halls, spoke to some vendors who were very nice, spoke to one who should probably change his professional focus to bouncer.  Picked up a few things that I could have picked up locally, left at 430 and encountered the same traffic on rt 30.  My overall impression is this was a waste of time.  Thanks for opening up some of the show, I am not interested in spending more money for access to the remaining halls.  A suggestion to the leadership, if you want New members it starts with engagement.  Everyone wearing the green wristband should have been targeted for a one minute welcome pitch sometime during the day.  Setting up a booth but not having the folks at the ticket window at least point it out was IMO an error.  I don't know what was intended but I don't think the desired goal was achieved.

OGR Webmaster posted:

eddie g posted:

I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.

ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.

Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

Combine that with the late afternoon PA announcements about not closing your booth until 6:30 pm when the show closes, then at 6:31 pm EDTCA staff are literally screaming at you to, "GET OUT...NOW! The show's over!"  None of us manufacturers and dealers get treated like that at ANY other show we do.

OKHIKER posted:

...Making reference to long time TCA members as a bunch of paranoid good old boys is about as insulting and unprofessional as it gets and this from the CEO of OGR.

What is insulting is being automatically suspected of doing something wrong or illegal when just setting up your booth for this show.

Case in point...

The dealers and manufacturers set up in the Orange Hall during the day on Wednesday and on Thursday morning. However, on Thursday we are not allowed to take any boxes or containers OUT of the building once we take them inside! Everyone has various boxes and containers that are part of the booth setup, but cannot stay in the booth during the show. To make space to work in the booth, they have to go back to the trailer, truck or whatever for the duration of the show. However, we cannot remove anything from the building until the show officially opens on Thursday.

Because of this paranoia about someone stealing something, getting an unfair deal before the show starts or whatever, the opening of the show on Thursday is a mess. When the doors open, TCA members are trying to get into the hall while other people are trying to take empty boxes, parts containers, hand trucks and other materials OUT of the hall! It makes for an interesting traffic jam at the doors for several minutes.

This rule about not removing boxes from the hall before the show starts is paranoia at its finest. It is also another situation that is unique to York. This NEVER happens at other shows we do.

Rich,

Your group does Allentown Pa.'s First Frost and Spring shows. What comes in Friday evening and up to 8AM Saturday cannot go out. PERIOD. Been that way for over 25 years.

Ron M

Severn posted:

I just noticed that the Day Out with Thomas you may have no knowledge of came through Strasburg ending June 25 -- that's pretty close to the show's dates this year at least.

http://ticketwebdowt.com/

Perhaps this kind of thing could be tied into the model train show in the future?

Somehow Sir Topham Hat wandering the halls ... appeals to me.

A few years ago I took my wife, daughter, son-in-law and 2 grandchildren on the roughly 20 minute ride. It cost about $100, and makes Metro-North look inexpensive. If Sir Topham Hat wandered the halls, we should charge him for it.

Gerry

OGR Webmaster posted:

ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.

Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

Combine that with the late afternoon PA announcements about not closing your booth until 6:30 pm when the show closes, then at 6:31 pm EDTCA staff are literally screaming at you to, "GET OUT...NOW! The show's over!"  None of us manufacturers and dealers get treated like that at ANY other show we do.

<SNIPPED>

Someone had their info fouled up. On the Eastern Division flyer cover page it states: "NEW: DEALER HALLS Open to Public Fri. 9:00 AM - 6:30 PM & Sat. 9:00 AM - 4:00 PM"

Ron M

I have been on a day out with thomas ... I did think it was not the best deal.   But there were a lot of kids, the main point of my post.

OGR Webmaster posted:

bigo426 posted:

My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.

Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.

The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.

In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.

After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.

Rich is right. We must not always view the York show through the eyes of the hobbyist. We must listen to the concerns and appreciate the views of the exhibitor/seller. Vendors spend thousands of dollars to set up and sell at York and up to a week or more of their time. Transportation cost, fuel, lodging, meals, employee salaries and incidental expenses all factor in. These costs must be paid for before dollar one of profit is made.    Sellers are not there for the fun of it but to turn a profit. Without sellers there is no ED meet. IMO the ED is obligated to do everything possible for their success.  As for the public admission its very confusing for someone who is unfamiliar with York.  You can only come in some days in two buildings.  It is not 1990 anymore where the O gauge hobby had way more hobbyists in it. The demographics of those that buy the trains is rapidly changing . York really needs to be a public event or expect it to be half the size in a couple of years.

The decision facing the ED is that it will need to bend and be flexible regarding open admission. If they don't bend they will break!

RSJB18 posted:

it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?

 

If staring at your computer screen gives you a sense of wonder, like a kid gets at Christmas...you are right...no use going to York.

Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.

Lots of interesting perspectives.  I think the ultimate answer is that the Eastern Division (and TCA, if it chooses to get involved) need to decide what they want York to be, and move forward accordingly.

My perspective is coming from 28 years as a TCA member (and not just so I can attend York), frequent visitor to York, travel over 500 miles each way (so not an ED member), spend a good chunk of change when I visit.  Over the years, I've suffered through the "good old boys", the stupid rules, and heavy-handed security.

I come to York for the entire experience - layouts, vendor displays, new products, see rare and unusual items, talk with dealers and other members, find bargains, visit the museum and Strasburg, and get away from work for a few days.  I enjoy most aspects of the event and hope it continues.  All of these aspects are important - lose any of them and I probably stop making the trip. 

There are more economical ways to buy trains, but I prefer to be able to see an item before buying it.  I can have the social aspect locally without traveling hundreds of miles.  York brings everything together in one place.

OGR's negativity is curious, considering the positive reports we're hearing from other vendors.

Is York a meet or a vendor show?  What does ED "owe" TCA and the major vendors?  How much input should non-ED members have? (Considering my effort and expense to attend, it's insulting to be told that as a non-ED member, my opinion doesn't count.)   What is ED's obligation to the greater good of the hobby?  It seems that York is critical to TCA, but we are constantly reminded that ED runs the event.  And then there's that pesky tax thing - a wrong move on that will drive the little guys away and kill the meet.

Whatever decisions are made, one thing is certain - somebody's going to be unhappy.

eddie g posted:

Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.

  I know that you are a member of the hard inflexible model railroad hobbyist community. I do not desire to get into the argument between forum members. All I will say is that Rich and the OGR staff attend York to promote their business. The hard inflexible model railroader is one to resist change and goes to York only for fun. I get that. I've enjoyed fun times there as well,   On the other hand for spending good money to display at York, is Rich Melvin allowed to make a living?  If so shouldn't ED provide the best pro-business climate with an entirely open meet or keep archaic rules in place designed to restrict admittance?  

eddie g posted:

Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.

I KNOW THAT!  That is precisely my point.

Telling me that a few member halls were crowded means NOTHING in the context of evaluating the public attendance at this show, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

I applaud the ED staff/leadership for trying.   We learn by opening our minds and trying/experiencing.   So bravo to the ED for listening and trying.  

As one who has promoted my own business, there is a difference between advertising and publicity.   Advertising is something for which one pays for and publicity is FREE.   Getting the TV news markets involved is most valuable.  The general public loves a human interest story and nothing tells the excitement at York like seeing what goes on in the dealer halls ( like the Orange Hall )  through the lens of the TV news camera.  Letting the public know that train lovers from all over the US and Canada have been coming to this huge model/toy train extravaganza for many decades!  A TV camera pans in on all the big mobil campers parked on the grounds and  News crews interviewing manufactures such as Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachman, custom builders, TCA members, retailers big and small, etc.   This show has been a best kept secret and open only to TCA members and now you, John Q Public, can attend the party!!  This is FREE publicity! 

Also sending press releases to newspapers in both small towns and large communities  in York, Harrisburg, Scranton, Wilkes - Barre, Baltimore/Washington and Philly and surrounding areas.   Again human interest editors just may send a reporter to cover the York event and/or call the ED for interview for an article.  Again, FREE publicity.  

Why not contact local NPR radio stations to do an on air interview talking with York officials, or vendor ( or OGR Webmaster ) about the great story of York.  

There is a great story here at York!!  We train lovers come from every walk of life  and every corner of north America ... and we come together not just to purchase new/used trains but to celebrate our great hobby at York.  Now opening to the public, one of the greatest train shows in north America, if not the world!  

The fellas who now run the Great Scale Train Show in Timonium, Md.  have done an exceptional job of promoting that show and they honor and respect to  vendors who participate too ( as well as attendees )   I know this because several of the regular vendors have told me this.   Has the ED consulted with Scott G ( who run this show ) and his partners?  If not, I'd suggest doing so.  There's nothing to loose and York is not really competition because GSTS caters to all scales ( alot of HO ) 

I think that we all want to share the joys of model/toy train and grow this hobby for sure.  I'm sure there are others here who will have more ideas on getting FREE publicity.   Again congratulations to the ED for opening York to the public and may the lessons learned from this York event be instituted to make the next public admission York event more positive.  

I for one did not get to attend York this year, due to scheduling conflicts from my end.  I am a TCA member and plan on continuing to be for many years to come.  

Pennsy418 posted:

I found this interesting....While at my LHS, we were talking about the future of the hobby. I said that I was surprised there were no posters or flyers for the York show. To which I was told rather bluntly....Why would we want to advertise a show that is a direct competitor of ours.

That's a new one on me, every hobby shop I've ever been in now or in the past had flyers about local train shows and other events posted. MB Kleins even has Greenbergs show specials when ever they are in town, several of the employees told me that during the shows they see a serious up tic in customers and sales. Does your LHS have CTT and OGR and MR in stock? Aren't the ads in there in direct competition with them also? Hobby shops with that attitude aren't going to last very long.

Jerry

The hard inflexible model railroader is one to resist change and goes to York only for fun.

The vast majority go to purchase their desired gauge trains from both members and dealers.

If so shouldn't ED provide the best pro-business climate with an entirely open meet or keep archaic rules in place designed to restrict admittance?

One who goes to the meet to purchase from members and dealers is stimulating the business climate. Going to a meet to observe what a manufacturer is producing or planning to produce (with only a small portion displayed) without actually selling the item is a waste of attending a meet. It can be more easily observed in a catalog or online. Actually purchasing from a cottage industry manufacturer is a different story. Leave the member sellers as is. The fact of the sales tax will end their participation and relegate York to a Greenburglike show. No one wants that. Group all the manufacturers and dealers that wish to display/sell their wares to members and the public along with all the layouts together, in whatever building they can fit in. Those sellers that want to cater to members only or dislike the added hours can relocate to member halls.

York has exist to serve the hobby - not the TCA

I could not disagree with this statement any stronger.
The purpose of the Eastern Division's York train meet is to serve TCA members, not the hobby, and not the organization itself.
Exactly what that means isn't always clear.
One can argue that "growing the hobby" is necessary to serve TCA members. And one can argue that keeping the commercial dealers happy is necessary.

Its all a balancing act.
That's where only opening some of the halls came from.

Even though many of the proponents of opening the show to the public proposed opening the dealer halls only, now it's no good.
So which way to go.......

John tells us the sales of wristbands was low. Some say they did not see any, others saw quite a few.
I wonder what the count was at the end of the show.
I also wonder how many "guests" the show had. Was the number appreciably different than it was at previous shows.

York as someone has said is a victim of it's own success.  Most local TCA shows don't even get noticed by the major manufacturers and dealers.  Did I say local?  Yes.  York in it's earliest and basic form is still a local TCA show run by the EDTCA.  They have been changing, albeit slowly with some of the thing folks have clamored for years to have like cell phones, pictures, and now some public access.  For some that's not enough.

Opening the member halls will sure to change the whole feel of the event as well as the tax implications.  You want York to go away faster?  Let the PA tax man badger the members.  This was the very first York, the very first that the public were welcomed to come into the dealer halls and some expected the dam would break and flood the halls with families and buyers.  When it didn't, at least according to some, they were upset.  I certainly think more time is needed before you write the public change off.  April is not known for being a big train month.

Some vendors are talking about coming only once a year, well actually only 1 that I know of.  That's a decision they'll have to make.  I certainly think that each vendor will have to make that decision.  The EDTCA I'm sure will evaluate the space they occupy and possibly move new vendors into those spots that will commit to both meets.  

Again I think it's more than just the EDTCA that needs to get the word out.  We all have a stake in this especially the vendors, many of which did a decent job on social media hying the show/meet.  I'm sure the EDTCA will take what they learned, either decide to do more or possibly not, and move towards the fall. 

I did see a few more "Guest" badges than normal.  I also so the green bands.  Before we all get bent out of shape perhaps we should all do a better job promoting the meet and see how fall goes.  It was a first time.  That's my take.

C W Burfle posted:

.....................

John tells us the sales of wristbands was low. Some say they did not see any, others saw quite a few.
I wonder what the count was at the end of the show.
I also wonder how many "guests" the show had. Was the number appreciably different than it was at previous shows.

I didn't try to take any actual count, but I did note a fair number of Guest tags walking by my table. 

My observation may be biased by paying more attention this meet than some others, so unfortunately I don't feel comfortable claiming it was either higher or lower than previous meets, but I did note quite a few this meet.

Not specific to that aspect, but one thing I did note that I figured was likely to happen was one person with a Guest tag commented about the early packing up on Saturday.  He did forget what time it was (he thought it was noon, it was 1 PM - it's not like any of us have never lost time like that ! ), but he was a little upset about seeing some people pack up before he got to view what they were trying to sell.  (I have seen far worse than packing an hour before the close, even with Saturday being sparse (at least in Red) on Saturday)

-Dave

richabr posted:

Going to a meet to observe what a manufacturer is producing or planning to produce (with only a small portion displayed) without actually selling the item is a waste of attending a meet. 

I don't know about it being a "waste", but at the very bottom of MY list of reasons I go to York.

I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.

In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success.

There are many, many other shows that do cater more to the general public. That's where broad promotional efforts more naturally fit.

Now if vendors decide that the feverish collector niche market is worth pursuing they will pay the costs to do so at York (and many do). When their value calculation changes, they will pull out. I would think no matter what, some version of the enthusiast-focused show will continue.

Seems to me the TCA ED is in a tough position. Their impossible mission: Expand the number of attendees to support the size of the show, while at the same time preserving the special qualities of York that are so appealing to the members of this forum and elsewhere in the enthusiast community.  And of course ANY CHANGES OF ANY KIND will be subjected to howls of pain from the longtime participants.

Another random observation, for York or more practically for other shows. Something I saw at one and only one booth in the member halls: A seller had combined a cheap and common PW Lionel loco, some less valuable rolling stock, a used transformer and a bunch of 027 track. Boxed together and sold for $149, with a replica Lionel user manual. This was the vendor's "entry level" offering for new trainiacs. And in my view anyone kicking the tires on this hobby, who just once picked up that heavy, detailed, all-metal loco would be hooked. Something to think about. And while I'm fantasizing: A stack of such kits (donated by sellers? Their closets are full of this stuff) given as door prizes might be a powerful incentive for newcomers to help develop the itch for more...

ogaugeguy posted:

J Daddy posted:

I think the point is made about the failure to attract the public... but compared from last April 2016 to 2017 it was very busy!

I wonder how much the increase has to do with the improving financial portfolios of the demographic age group who attends . After all, with the stock market situation improving, folks have more disposable income and couple that situation with an ever growing confidence in and more favorable outlook on and less fear of the current economy, us "older" hobbyists are more likely prone towards spending more of what we have.

Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.

Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.

$17K.... that is an interesting number. I wondered where the folks who present this sort of numbers get them from. So I did a little looking on the internet.
It seems the numbers reported vary widely.
Some of the calculations exclude people who don't carry credit card debit.
Here is a site that covers some of this:  credit cards dot com site.

 A seller had combined a cheap and common PW Lionel loco, some less valuable rolling stock, a used transformer and a bunch of 027 track. Boxed together and sold for $149, with a replica Lionel user manual. This was the vendor's "entry level" offering for new trainiacs. And in my view anyone kicking the tires on this hobby, who just once picked up that heavy, detailed, all-metal loco would be hooked.

I can tell you that a set like this would not be a quick sale in my area.

cplyons posted:

I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.

In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success....

Possibly the most sensible post in this entire thread. Go back and read it if you skipped over earlier.

Joe Hohmann posted:

RSJB18 posted:

it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?

 

If staring at your computer screen gives you a sense of wonder, like a kid gets at Christmas...you are right...no use going to York.

Joe- I was merely pointing out that there are many other avenues to purchase model trains now then years ago. As I said, I am a newbie and would like to attend York one day. I am old enough to remember staring at trains at my LHS with my father. Setting up his pre-war Lionels was always a treat.

As GRG pointed out, catching up with old friends is priceless. For that reason I understand the show. From a economic standpoint however, its a different story.

Allan Miller posted:

cplyons posted:

I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.

In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success....

Possibly the most sensible post in this entire thread. Go back and read it if you skipped over earlier.

I agree. York is not a 'beginner' show, nor is it really a 'young and growing family looking to buy a train set for Christmas' kind of show. I would think World's Greatest Hobby or Greenberg would be a more 'entry level' show. They have their place. I don't really care for WGH shows. York has its place. I would like to see a younger demographic at York. Neither is for everyone and shouldn't be forced to be for everyone.

The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.

However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?

FRankM

C W Burfle posted:

Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.

$17K.... that is an interesting number. I wondered where the folks who present this sort of numbers get them from. .

Bloomberg business news about 2 days ago - the number surprised me but then very little does regarding the foolishness that can occur at the intersection of people and credit cards

Bloomberg business news about 2 days ago - the number surprised me but then very little does regarding the foolishness that can occur at the intersection of people and credit cards

Sorry, I did not mean that I wondered where you (MWB) got your numbers from. I meant  outfits like Bloomberg.

Moonson posted:

The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.

However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?

FRankM

Every new attendee was given the option to register in the Silver Hall which would allow them into every building.

Pete

Moonson posted:

The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.

However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?

FRankM

Everyone wants the benefits of being in the club, without being in the club.   The EDTCA made a pretty good compromise.

I have read this entire thread. Lots of ideas, complaints, etc. But I see no objectivity about the elusive "PUBLIC nor very much about why some had success and others did not.

Most of the public works, goes to school, etc during the week. They go to train shows on the weekend. And please, let's not pretend that we are serving the public when we close at 2:00 on Saturday. That is for our convenience, certainly not the public's.

If you want the public, forget Thursday, open Friday at noon and close Sunday at 4:00. Mimic those who successfully serve the public. Note that I said IF YOU WANT THE PUBLIC. Personally I am not too interested in a Greenberg type show and would not make the long drive twice a year for one.

I think that vendors need to ask some questions also. Is my product fresh or stale. What am I introducing that is new? Do I and my staff work to personally interact with those who attend, to our customers, and do we from the top down make the effort to meet them individually and say thank you? Or do we talk to our friends and ourselves and afterwards complain about how bad things were?

Many vendors reported success, some their best April York show ever. What did they do differently? If you are dissatisfied, ask them what they did to succeed. Maybe the fault is not all the missing people.

Bill Webb

Let all the halls be open a-la-carte... you pay at the door.   But the total if you paid at the door for entry to every hall is simply greater than the club fee which gets you all of them.

Hours possibly should be Sat/Sun ... to 6pm on Saturday, but 4pm maybe on Sunday?

There's a simple reason that the public wasn't allowed in the member halls.  There's no sales tax issue if you're in a club and selling/buying/trading stuff between members.  However, if you let the public in, every one of the table holders would potentially have to have a PA Sales Tax License.  Imagine the flap that would cause!