Any “public” spotted in the dealer halls yet?
Judging by the parking lots and traffic in the aisles, how is the overall attendance? Is it higher, lower or the same as a typical April York?
Bill
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I saw 2 women in the Orange Hall without name tags. Do the "public" that are not "guests" get a badge?
The public got a green wrist band. I saw very few of them, and at about 10am, the public admission line was 3 people deep. The TCA line in the silver hall at the same time was nearly out the door.
The parking lot was filled about the same as in the past couple of meets. The halls were not crowded and lots of elbow room in the Orange and purple halls. I saw about 20 people with wrist bands indicating they were paying public. Maybe Saturday will be a better day for the paying public since it is not a work day.
An Ohio dealer l know said he saw a neighboring dealer sell an engine to a "public" for $10....(probably not a "Big Boy").
I was the first ever public member through the door! It was $14 compared to the renewal of $50 plus the $20 entrance fee. I couldn't be there all day so it worked for me. My son was very paranoid because people kept pointing at us. Lol. There really were a lot of people pointing and whispering! I only saw about 30 people with wristbands.
OGR's Jim Barrett had a wonderful conversation with a "public" father and son about building a layout. They had already purchased some Ross Custom Switches and we're seeking advice about how to bring their ideas to the train table.
Good sign...
I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
Last year I went in October with a guest entry, and TCA hooked me for life! This strategy works for sure!
My wife went to Catholic school. I was a Public.....LOL
Every vendor I spoke with was very positive about the turnout and volume of sales. I didn't see many green wristbands on Friday.
Most venders I spoke with were selling their products. Traffic was a little bit busier than last April for the Friday morning.
I saw one person with the green band and my friend saw 3. Judging by the cars in the parking lot attendance seemed to be good but I agree a lot of elbow room in the halls.
I parked my car and there were two friends from the local N SCALE (!!!) club ready to walk the halls as the public. When I saw them again later in the day, it appears they put a significant dent in Scenic Express and other dealer's booths.
Attendance seemed heaver than in past springs. I wasn't in much of a buying mood but I head lots of positive comments from sellers.
Maxrailroad posted:I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
You would prefer "Non-members"? Is "public" now on the "political correctness" list?
Joe Hohmann posted:Maxrailroad posted:I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
You would prefer "Non-members"? Is "public" now on the "political correctness" list?
Yes, from this point forward, let's just refer to them as "The Great Unwashed Masses."
Oh.
Wait.
That might not help narrow it down... 
Steven J. Serenska
From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Actually, there is already a "second York show". It's called the Greenberg Train Show, which is held in the Utz building (Orange Hall) every January. It's well advertised, well attended (I've been to 3), and offers the public lots of trains and products all scales. No, Lionel and MTH do not attend, but that is their call.
superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
This event WAS advertised in a few markets by Eastern Division and by a couple of the manufacturers. Having said that, you have to crawl before you can walk, I can't imagine the Eastern Division had any intention of having 5-10,000 new people show up. I would think they would rather have fewer people go home with a positive experience than to have throngs of people that wait in long lines or some other unpleasant thing go home and report such. I suspect they will review what went right and what went wrong, make adjustments and probably advertise heavier for the fall meet. I would even think that they may wait to all out advertise until the 2018 dates. My $0.02.
Steve
Joe Hohmann posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Actually, there is already a "second York show". It's called the Greenberg Train Show, which is held in the Utz building (Orange Hall) every January. It's well advertised, well attended (I've been to 3), and offers the public lots of trains and products all scales. No, Lionel and MTH do not attend, but that is their call.
Bingo - How many "general purpose" train shows can one venue support?
TCA runs a collector's meet, Greenberg runs a public show.
If there was truly support/demand for a second public show somebody would have noticed by now.....
ohhh boy.... did those "public" things come in by UFO? 
man they just ruined the secret club of "members only"
they probably don't even know the lingo or secret hand shake huh?
Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Maybe you should re-join the TCA so you can submit solutions like these directly.
Steven J. Serenska
TCA : 78-13181
superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
I hope that isn't / wasn't the case. I didn't see any public advertising for the event, but it seems to me that is absolutely required for a successful outcome.
George
It was busier Friday then Thursday Every vendor I talked to said sales were up.
It will take a few shows to see if the public will show up on a consistent basis so let's hold our negative opinions until we know the facts.
G3750 posted:superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
I hope that isn't / wasn't the case. I didn't see any public advertising for the event, but it seems to me that is absolutely required for a successful outcome.
George
I hope I'm wrong to. I want this to succeed
Btw the unwashed masses arrived Thursday afternoon. The first person I ran into in the Orange hall smelled worse then some cow dung along the roads getting to the train show.
Aparrently he did not see my pre York posts on bathing.
Maybe all those "public" folks signed in as one time guests, so they'd get badges instead of wrist bands.
Better yet, maybe most of them joined the TCA on the spot!
I the words of ROCKY BALBOA,
You telling me that this meet was open to the GENERAL PUBLIC or just to everyone
?
C W Burfle posted:Maybe all those "public" folks signed in as one time guests, so they'd get badges instead of wrist bands.
Better yet, maybe most of them joined the TCA on the spot!
Exactly Burfle!
As I walked around the orange hall two or three different times throughout the day on Friday I saw probably about 20 people with wristbands, but I did start to notice guest tags and eventually I saw an acquaintance I knew who wasn't a member and looked at his badge. He was a guest of Nancy. He showed up and went to the orange hall to enter through the "public entrance" and when he went to pay they offered the many different options that have been mentioned on the forum and obviously he took the onetime guest option as the best value to see the whole show.
Just arrived home. I left the Orange Hall about 1230.
I saw many more families with arm bands today than Friday. I engaged a few of them in conversation. They were having a wonderful time. Most had already enjoyed the wonderful layout in the Black Hall.
As I was leaving I saw group after group of families coming in with armbands.
We should all remember, this is the first time. It's really just a dress rehearsal. The main train time is the Fall. That's when I think we can really tell if this is going to work. I think we should give it a chance.
I am pleasantly encouraged. I look forward to seeing what happens in October.
Peter
My experience started on Wednesday when the waitress at Round the Clock Diner asked me about the public hours. She was planning on taking her 5 yr old and 7 yr old boys and was very happy it was now open to all.
Today I went back to Orange Hall after member halls closed to get some Sinbad glue and ran into friends from the Baltimore area, with their 7-year old, up for the first time because of the new policy. They were in awe. 7-year old now has his first locomotive, a Lion Chief Plus BNSF diesel.
I was encouraged like Putnam Division. Good move, Eastern Division TCA!
Did the dealers actually stay until 4 Saturday?
Saturday was DEAD...DEAD...DEAD! We started packing about 3:15, and the public was a no-show!
No major influx of people wearing wrist bands because we were already there wearing badges. Is there a potential to make Saturday York into an Allentown? They have a long way to go.
I hope it worked out great for the dealers and vendors. This is a very long week for all of them. I personally could not do it. I attend Thursday and Friday and that does me in. I hope they all sold thousands of dollars of items.
Rod Miller
From what I saw and heard from dealers for both days, MINIMAL impact. On an extremely light Sat. one needed to really search for scarce wristbands.
The Friday count of wristbands was, I believe, 109 total! That's hardly a dent in the show attendance!
Now that the meet is over, I think it's safe to say that the much-ballyhooed public attendance at this show was a total flop. It's painfully obvious that there was nowhere near enough publicity to get the word out about this.
109 people on Saturday? Really? Add two zeros to that number and we'd have something to talk about.
I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
gunrunnerjohn posted:The Friday count of wristbands was, I believe, 109 total! That's hardly a dent in the show attendance!
Does anyone have a count of the number of people who were "guests" of the registrar? I'm guessing that a lot of people opted for that choice, although I still doubt that the number was significant.
OGR Webmaster posted:Now that the meet is over, I think it's safe to say that the much-ballyhooed public attendance at this show was a total flop. It's painfully obvious that there was nowhere near enough publicity to get the word out about this.
109 people on Saturday? Really? Add two zeros to that number and we'd have something to talk about.
Will everyone who is surprised by this please raise their hands?
I hate to be cynical, but the lack of promotion makes it look like there wasn't a whole lot of interest in making it succeed.
Keep an eye on the TCA membership "thermometer". Maybe better, maybe worse.
It might not have helped that the meet was so late this time (I'm assuming due to holiday conflicts). May starts on Monday!
Weather was so nice the other days, it's easy to believe some people who might have considered coming out instead did spring time outdoor stuff. (Members or public!)
As for today, the other side of that coin might not have helped in the morning with the rain, but at least it ended after an hour or so.
-Dave
I saw a man & woman come into to orange hall with a green stroller with a dog in it. What's with that?
eddie g posted:I saw a man & woman come into to orange hall with a green stroller with a dog in it. What's with that?
The dog had a green band so he was good to go.
Does anyone really know how much or how little advertising was done? Facebook seemed pretty busy with the train folks talking about it. Although that's like preaching to the choir.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Saturday was DEAD...DEAD...DEAD! We started packing about 3:15, and the public was a no-show!
Shocker!
Even if they broadcast with world wide advertising, how many non train people do you think are going throw down the money for a weekend trip to York, PA??? During the week!
Hey honey, lets pack up the kids and head to York Pa for a toy train show...I promise it's even better than Walley World.
I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
If the show only generated 109 admissions from the general public (as reported above), I doubt the Eastern Division took in enough to break even on the dollars that were spent to advertise.
I think the show was very light. Thursday and Friday, not problems walking around. Hardly saw any of the green bands, sales and buying were ok from the folks I spoke too.
Hey, I got one of the 50 Lionel Cars, picked up a good number of Atlas O Steam Era cars, WiFi units for MTH and Lionel, and picked up my new TT from Mill House River Studios.
pdx1955 posted:I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
We know of at least one former member who attended because he posted to this thread on Friday (look near the top of the first page).
I would speculate that he wasn’t the only non-member in attendance as TCA dropouts are well aware of the York TCA meet so the lack of much advertising was not a factor to them. I doubt if any of these dropouts will rejoin if this “experiment” becomes permanent so they can’t be counted as potential new members which was one of the Club’s objectives of opening to the public.
Regards,
Bill
MartyE posted:scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
I like the Thursday opening as well. Noon is very nice for those of us who travel a long distance, it sure beats leaving at 4:00 AM.However we need to think about the cost to the manufacturers and to the dealers. The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost. Empty halls hours before closing is not going to make this any better.
Scott Smith
scott.smith posted:MartyE posted:scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
I like the Thursday opening as well. Noon is very nice for those of us who travel a long distance, it sure beats leaving at 4:00 AM.However we need to think about the cost to the manufacturers and to the dealers. The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost. Empty halls hours before closing is not going to make this any better.
Scott Smith
They could open Thursday at midnight...I'll still be there. I prefer Thursday but what ever they do I'll be there.
Teapest in a tempot
The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost.
A couple of thoughts:
1 - Change the days and hours in the dealer halls to Friday and Saturday only. Leave Thursday for member halls only. Dealer setup (no selling) could be all day Thursday.
2 - Member table holders feel the same impact as the dealers. An extra day of food and lodging. An extra day of vacation time burnt. An extra day of not stepping up to family responsibilities.
The show lost a lot of table holders when it went to three days. I think the show tried to make up for the loss by allowing people to get multiple tables.
Long ago I suggested making some tables available for one or two days. The person on the show committee with whom I was communicating said they were considering this, but it never happened.
Regardless, how many TCA members made the trip, had a bad time, and are sorry they went? I'd guess there aren't many. I wish I had been able to attend.
I think I am going to look on facebook to see whether there are any comments from the public.
MartyE posted:Does anyone really know how much or how little advertising was done? Facebook seemed pretty busy with the train folks talking about it. Although that's like preaching to the choir.
I live 25 miles north of Harrisburg and receive The Patriot News. In the Weekend Section of the newspaper there was NO MENTION of the YORK MEET. They usually put all the events of the area in this section of the paper and it was no where to be found. TCA grade for getting the word out IMO=D+. They did have the Local FOX 43 TV station there only on Thursday morning during their AM edition. I saw two clips, one in the Orange Hall at the Atlas booth and the other in the Black Hall at the modular layout. They need to put a coupon in the paper for the Public ala GUN SHOWs in Harrisburg for a dollar off admission or something like that. Promote the hobby.
You know. After all the fuss on this forum about an open meet, it didn't change anything. We left York Saturday morning but as for Friday I saw very few armbands. Lot's of forum debate and un-noticable change.
This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
If I were not a TCA member or on this forum I would never know about York. And I am 30 minutes from the fairgrounds and 2 from the TCA museum. Curious how to know how the folks with green bands heard about the meet.
clem k posted:This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
True, except for some one-day shows. I've sold at multiple day shows and Sunday is by far slower than Saturday. Early afternoon is the highest of the day, but nowhere as close as a Saturday.
Peter
FWIW: There was an ad in the Baltimore Sun newspaper.
This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
The local show in Albany, NY is held on Saturdays.
It is well attended.
Craignor posted:FYI: The was an ad in Baltimore Sun Newspaper.
Well that is good to hear. At least it is something.
WftTrains posted:pdx1955 posted:I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
We know of at least one former member who attended because he posted to this thread on Friday (look near the top of the first page).
I would speculate that he wasn’t the only non-member in attendance as TCA dropouts are well aware of the York TCA meet so the lack of much advertising was not a factor to them. I doubt if any of these dropouts will rejoin if this “experiment” becomes permanent so they can’t be counted as potential new members which was one of the Club’s objectives of opening to the public.
Regards,
Bill
Well, I'm not going to feel too bad about our chapter's public show if a locale in the middle of"O-Gauge heaven" can only break just over 100 members of the general public on a Saturday. I'm going to answer my own question as based on our meet surveys, about a third just know to show up and really can't be classified as "general" anyways. Some of these are ex-members or potential members/very interested parties. We do a lot of "pavement-pounding" with flyers, print advertisements, and social media. With advertising its a good day if you can get a 2% response rate. FB definitely mirrors that based on the results from our paid ads. Of that 2% that mark "going or interested" only about a quarter of those actually make it to the door. The sharing and "buzz" on FB doesn't necessarily translate to people at the door. It takes a lot of volunteer time and $$$ if you want a lot of folks to show up - its much harder than sending out a form in a TCA publication. Sometimes it doesn't do much based on weather, other events, economic conditions, etc. We had a member this year donate a lot of monies toward graphic print ads covering the west and central portions of the Portland metro area, and frankly it would have been cheaper to hand out $5 bills to anyone that showed up.
Peter
I did not see a single wristband for the 3 days I was there. Well, OK, late Thurs, all day Friday, and until 11:30 on Saturday (flew in, so constrained by flights). But then again, I was looking at trains, not wrists.
WRT getting the word out, if you're at least a casual participant in our hobby, I know that CTT was talking about opening to the public in the months leading up to the meet, and I believe OGR did as well. If you're a family guy with small kids who is contemplating trains as a hobby, then I agree with the post above about putting a coupon in the paper. Oops; most young families don't read the paper, getting their news online. Still, wouldn't hurt.
Advertising is math. There are only three major factors.
1) Reach-Are they reaching the intended people that would be interested in going to a great train event?
2)Frequency-How many times did the target group see or hear the message?
3)Message-Does the message itself make the consumer drop their can of bear and say I'm going to that?
If the ED is going to have a successful advertising campaign they must make sure that all factors are met. I doubt any of three factors were met...it was wasted money.
Scott Smith
I know the museum is a National TCA thing but you would think they would have a huge advertising display/booth there all year to promote the show to the general public. The museum is one of the few places where the public (ok tourists) and toy trains collide. I never understood why they don't promote the hell out of the show there. It's like a hidden secret. They should show pictures and video of the meet along with trains running from the displays. Just ridiculous that they don't use it to promote it. All I see is how the library is being updated with new technology and stuff but they don't bother to promote the one show that could really bring new blood to the TCA. What am I missing here?
The Greenberg Shows, and Great Model Train Shows both send out small post cards to me advertising the shows (which are at the Maryland State Fairgrounds which is only a few miles away) seems like one 6 weeks prior and another a week before. Those post cards I think are a good way to do it, because I might stick that card in my pending file on my desk, and see it every day, or if I wasn't interested I could hand it off to a friend that might be.
Carl Orton posted:Oops; most young families don't read the paper, getting their news online. Still, wouldn't hurt.
Think Facebook.
I saw a lot of wrist bands in the Orange hall Friday.
You must have seen every one of them then, because there were only 109 total non-TCA people at the meet on friday! I only saw a handful, but I believe one of them actually purchased something at our booth.
My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
There's an old saying, "You need to spend money in order to make money".
You must have seen every one of them then, because there were only 109 total non-TCA people at the meet on friday! I only saw a handful, but I believe one of them actually purchased something at our booth.
Source?
Harry Henning went over to the registration desk and asked. It's not like it's supposed to be a secret.
The Greenberg Shows, and Great Model Train Shows both send out small post cards to me advertising the shows (which are at the Maryland State Fairgrounds which is only a few miles away) seems like one 6 weeks prior and another a week before. Those post cards I think are a good way to do it, because I might stick that card in my pending file on my desk, and see it every day, or if I wasn't interested I could hand it off to a friend that might be
In order to send post cards, you need a mailing list.
One manufacturer sent out Emails on behalf of the show.
Where were the other dealers with mailing lists?
BIGRAIL,
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it? How about a dues increase !!!
At my table in the Silver Hall there was a guy complaining to the meet chairman that should we do this and we should do that. Some of his ideas actually made sense. But once again he was told he can't even find enough volunteers to enforce all the rules that we have now. No extra money for someone to do the work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
Paul Edgar
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it?
I haven't been to the museum in a long time.
If it does not have a display about the TCA, then one should be created.
Now that the show is open to the public, there could also be a display about the York show.
Some folks might cry that it is unfair to favor one division. But does any other division have a similar show?
These displays should be able to get built the same way anything else gets done. Assign the work to staff. Let something else slip.
No extra money for someone to dothe work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
There was a very successful show run by the local TTOS division in my area. It was always the same people doing all the work. Lots of people ready to tell those folks just how to do it, but unwilling to lift a finger themselves. When that core group got tired of the work, the show folded.
it seems like the pervasive attitude was fling open the gates and hords of the public would stamped the place like a invasion,time will tell if it works,if not oh well back to the drawing boards,just think how long it took for pictures and cell usage,,,York wasn't built in a day,,,as the saying goes,,or was that rome,hummmmmm
bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
Dismal??!!?!? I had to park on the racetrack!
I was at the Eastern Division membership meeting Saturday morning. I believe the leadership was realistic. They were hopeful about public attendance, but they knew this was the 1st time and it is the spring......not a big toy train time. I(me) would call this a dress rehearsal for the fall meet.
I would cut the Eastern Division leadership a little slack. We'd all like to hit a home run 1st time up at the plate....but 1st you have to see the ball, and learn.
They moved on cell phones and photography (maybe slower than we would have all liked), but they did and they have shown a willingness to try new things and adapt.
Peter
Thanks Peter. Your assessment seems spot on to me. This is the first cycle of the open meet. I'm sure they'll need to tweak their strategy a bit before anyone can proclaim it a failure or success. As you said they are trying.
Paul Edgar posted:BIGRAIL,
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it? How about a dues increase !!!
At my table in the Silver Hall there was a guy complaining to the meet chairman that should we do this and we should do that. Some of his ideas actually made sense. But once again he was told he can't even find enough volunteers to enforce all the rules that we have now. No extra money for someone to do the work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
Paul Edgar
Paul,
I do not disagree with what you are saying but consider this: there are a great many people who joined the TCA so they can go to York. If York were to someday be no more, I'm betting the TCA and the museum would go down with it. No amount of dues increase would save it. My point is the TCA and the York meet fates are tied pretty close together. The TCA can't afford to not step up and promote the show. BigRail
It seems that I’m one of the few members to not renew my TCA membership and attend as part of the public. I’ll give you a little insight into my decision. The main factor was cost. I only joined TCA so my sons and I could attend the train show. I didn’t plan on staying past 3:00-4:00 PM. I had to make a decision as to whether or not to join the club. It was simple, pay $72 for TCA admission (membership + admission) or $14 for public admission. It was an easy decision. In another thread, I mentioned that most of my past purchases have been made in the orange and purple halls. We built our layout two years ago and our interest are in modern diesels and technology. Thus, we determined our highest priority was to see the manufacturers and dealers in orange/purple for the 6 hours we would be at the show. I would have loved to walk through the member halls as there was an individual there selling some items that I probably would have purchased. But in the end, I decided to take that extra $58 and spend it in the orange hall for this particular meet. It had nothing to do with me being angry at TCA or anything of that nature. It was simply the cheaper option for this particular meet. There’s a good chance I may renew my membership for the fall.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Harry Henning went over to the registration desk and asked. It's not like it's supposed to be a secret.
Just curious, was the 109 figure based on the number of green armbands or the total that showed up at the Orange Hall as first timers. Many when they learned they could visit all the halls if they paid 22 bucks opted to head over to the Silver Hall for their badges. There were reports that it took 1 1/2 hours to get registered because the line was out the door.
While the manufacturers may have requested longer hours and allowing the public in, the motivation for the Eastern Division willing to try this was to hopefully produce more revenue. If it achieved this and they came out in the black then it was a success. Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
Pete
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed....
In context with my previous comments on this matter I don’t believe my post was nonsense. The analysis is that in comparison, the Allentown show is an example of the best you can get as far as a train show in Pennsylvania. Many of the attendees at Allentown are already TCA members. Some non TCA attendees at Allentown are parents that are trying to keep the kids distracted. With that group, there’s not enough potential for worthwhile repeat business. Bottom line, Allentown is the example that illustrates the region is wrung dry - maxed out - and there is nothing more to be squeezed out of the proverbial stone. I think it is nonsense that corporations with a national perspective would consider descending on a locality such as York in Pennsylvania and expect to find a magic solution to the overall problem of declining interest in their industry. Perhaps with a New England style event in every state there could be a chance for a spark of a resurgence. TCA ED is not a promoter of a "for profit" event. If the "for profit" companies want to pitch in financially and create a better income stream at York, then they ought to take the responsibility of promoting that end of the situation.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
This mirrors some of the thoughts I've had regarding this event.
I can say - with great certainty - that the gestapo mentality that existed at this event - kept me from attending.
My uncle was an Orange Hall guy - the screw man.
As long as I can remember (until just a few years ago) - he would stop and stay overnight at our house on his way to and from the show. (He lived in Cleveland - his sister is my mother). Whenever the topic of me going with him was broached - he always brought up the SS Hall setup security - and overbearing rules - in short - he didn't want to be responsible for me - and you have to be a TCA Member...etc. So - I never went.
So - for sure TCA prevented me from being exposed to the more serious side of the hobby.
I guess it didn't help that my uncle could never take any pictures to show off the event to family, friends and fellow hobbyists. (too bad considering he was also a skilled photographer)
I have tons of York Show memorabilia - programs, name tags, maps, registration stuff, stickers - but no photos!
I live in Franklin County - just a county away from York - but watch Harrsiburg and Lancaster TV news - if there was a TV news story, I did not see it. Did the TCA buy any local TV time? Despite being "non-profit" - TCA lacks the trappings of a philanthropy - you can't expect free coverage.
It seems like the TCA/ED is still producing this event themselves - and while they pull it off - they clearly aren't event professionals - or promoters in any sense.
Hire some professional consultants - and do this right!
Dont re-invent the wheel - there are trade shows everywhere - a train show shouldnt be any different to organize for a competent promoter.
Does TCAED have actual 501c3 status - or do they just label themselves "non-profit"? I think everyone involved wants to profit - so perhaps a change of tact is needed here. I assume any TCA Members with tables are there to make money!
Disconnecting this event from the broader notion of TCA membership would be the best for everyone. TCA should just be another vendor - selling whatever it is they sell.
Quote from TCA ED website says it all - "We're growing and because we require membership in the Train Collectors Association to attend our meet, York has become the Number 1 recruiting tool for the Train Collectors Association." Well - at least they're honest.
York has exist to serve the hobby - not the TCA. They're bragging about signing up 51 people and 100 renewals - whats that - less than 10,000 dollars? Doesn't sound very successful to me...given the number of people that are supposed to be attending this event.
Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
They advertised in the Baltimore Sun. According to what I found online, the Sun is the largest paper in Maryland. I could not find any information on their actual circulation numbers or the geographic location the paper covers.
I am not saying that the Eastern Division shouldn't do more advertising. But I do think that it is impossible for them to advertise in every paper within a certain radius of the show. They have to spend their advertising dollars wisely. It is going to take some work to determine exactly how.
I don't know whether the ED sent out press releases. I'd suggest sending out a carefully written press release that is publishable as a small feature story to every television station, radio station, daily and weekly paper within their target area.
Sending out such letters would cost under $1.00 each.
Hmm, I guess I have a different perspective as one of the public that attended. I usually go to the bandit meets but since the TCA was open I decided to forgo bandit and attend TCA instead on Friday, which I figured would be a quieter day. I live within a half hour drive so it wasn't a big trip for me to attend anyway.
I think it stands to reason that almost anyone who attends this will already be a hobbyist rather than someone just starting out, though I for one would be happy to see new people inspired by the hobby. I saw a couple other public entrants that knew of the show due to a local hobby shop. The person giving us the public information did a nice job welcoming us and making it friendly.
I would say it was confusing to figure out where to get the public ticket so more signage next time around stating "Go to Utz hall" would be helpful.
I enjoyed the modular layout in the black hall and threw some money down with OGR (great deals on building front pieces) and Scenic Express and Altoona Model works (had a great talk with the owner, really nice guy).
I was a bit starstruck to see people who's work I've admired on the forum after all these years of reading or folks like Mike Wolf in person. I also enjoyed seeing models in person built by Harry Hieke and some other industry greats
Benefit to TCA - $14 for my registration plus plenty of my cash to vendors there they would not have gotten plus marketing to me to check out new vendor websites and possibly have me as a new customer. Even if there were only a hundred new people there that is a hundred more customers. I agree with keeping the first day for members only and member halls only as members pay for that benefit. I think staying public to further help the vendors generate more revenue to cover costs and to keep cost of products low for us is a benefit.
C W Burfle posted:Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
They advertised in the Baltimore Sun. According to what I found online, the Sun is the largest paper in Maryland. I could not find any information on their actual circulation numbers or the geographic location the paper covers.
I am not saying that the Eastern Division shouldn't do more advertising. But I do think that it is impossible for them to advertise in every paper within a certain radius of the show. They have to spend their advertising dollars wisely. It is going to take some work to determine exactly how.
I don't know whether the ED sent out press releases. I'd suggest sending out a carefully written press release that is publishable as a small feature story to every television station, radio station, daily and weekly paper within their target area.
Sending out such letters would cost under $1.00 each.
This pretty much says it all...
Further, i'd encourage everyone here to carefully separate the results of the changing hobby from results of the York meet. As a "younger guy" in my 40s in this hobby, I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age. I'd really like to see more young people getting into the hobby because there are some great products and talents out there now based on what I saw in York.
I think the dealers like OGR and the hobby shops can get more for their travel dollar by having York serve the existing hobby crowd as well as serve the public crowd on Friday and Saturday.
As far as advertising, in the internet age I think newspaper and TV advertising is not going to reach the demographic that has the new customers. Kids and folks in the 20-30 age group are not reading newspapers as much and skip advertisements on their DVR'd shows.
I'd bet that just advertising on the main forum sites, like OGR, plus having internet vendors put a banner on their website would provide most of the advertising of the show needed. People interested or doing a little bit in the hobby are most likely reading about it on the internet. That might help TCA save some advertising dollars also.
I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
eddie g posted:...check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
That's good news about the Red Hall. What do you feel it might bode, Eddie G. ?
EmpireBuilderDave posted:......... I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age.
If you have any belief at all that collecting trains is suitable as an investment of any sort at all, you have made a tragic error. Almost uniformly they decrease in value upon sale, not unlike driving a new car off the dealer's lot.
mwb posted:EmpireBuilderDave posted:......... I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age.
If you have any belief at all that collecting trains is suitable as an investment of any sort at all, you have made a tragic error. Almost uniformly they decrease in value upon sale, not unlike driving a new car off the dealer's lot.
I think you're putting words into his mouth - concern about holding value - does not mean "investment"
And - you're ignoring buying on the used market...those are already discounted - and if you are clever and determined - and buy right - you can recoup most of what you pay - when you render your collection to the market.
Example: LIONEL MPC-era GG-1 stock seems to be up these days - I was snapping these up for 90-125 a few years ago - now it seems like, nice specimens with box are bringing closer to 225-250.
Example: LIONEL MPC-era GG-1 stock seems to be up these days - I was snapping these up for 90-125 a few years ago - now it seems like, nice specimens with box are bringing closer to 225-250.
I can agree that some prices have started to go back up.
But how does $225-$250 compare to the original street price?
From a relative newbie- been on the forum for about 8 months.
Was watching the build up to York with both anticipation and curiosity (No, I was not planning on attending), I must say that it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
If the TCA is trying to bring in new members then this doesn't seem to an outsider like its the way to do it. I am far from new to the hobby either- I've had trains almost my whole life and I'm in my mid 50's now.
I am not looking to start a new argument here, just my 2 cents worth.
