The next new feature for O scale 3 rail steam locos???

Will Ebbert posted:

Real wheel slip, not the dumb sounds from the big boy. My thought for how to implement it would be having a motor that raises the locomotive slightly via the power pickups so it loses traction. I would also like better sounds. Someone get the sound guys to spend tone around a real steam engine. They might learn something. 

Both Lionel and MTH have sent their respective "Sound Engineers" out in the field to record Bothe steam and diesel locomotives. For example, the sounds in the MTH SP GS-4 4-8-4 models are from the REAL SP 4449, and the sounds in the Lionel UP FEF-3 4-8-4 models are from the REAL UP 844.

So,,,,,,I'll ask you; have YOU actually been around and/or worked on REAL steam locomotives, such as SP 4449 and UP 844?

Hot Water posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

Real wheel slip, not the dumb sounds from the big boy. My thought for how to implement it would be having a motor that raises the locomotive slightly via the power pickups so it loses traction. I would also like better sounds. Someone get the sound guys to spend tone around a real steam engine. They might learn something. 

Both Lionel and MTH have sent their respective "Sound Engineers" out in the field to record Bothe steam and diesel locomotives. For example, the sounds in the MTH SP GS-4 4-8-4 models are from the REAL SP 4449, and the sounds in the Lionel UP FEF-3 4-8-4 models are from the REAL UP 844.

So,,,,,,I'll ask you; have YOU actually been around and/or worked on REAL steam locomotives, such as SP 4449 and UP 844?

I am an employee at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum and while I know a few models have real sounds, I also know most of them are not. I have spent countless hours in the cabs of steam locomotives as well as working on them. I understand "extinct" locomotives are out of luck for sound recording, but the sounds of the Lionel J class aren't even close to the real thing. That's why I didn't buy the model. 

Opening firebox door with better simulated fire. Changing steam pressure gauge in the cab...it would be very tiny but could probably be done.

I really like the pop off smoke and sound feature in the new Lionel Niagara programming. While Lionel has done some cylinder steam and will have it in the 2nd iteration of the Milwaukee Road Northern, the efforts thus far have been rather weak.  Having spent some time around FEF-3 844 when its cylinder cocks are opened up, I know that cylinder cock steam can shoot out a considerable distance and can be even more impressive than smoke from the stack.  My recommendation is to improve performance of cylinder cock steam release and not just dump it out on the roadbed.

I would like to see the next iterations of the FEF-3 not just have the correctly painted smoke deflectors for the greyhound versions (with black as opposed to gray paint below the yellow line) but a realistic cylinder cock steam release effect that triggers for say 60-90 seconds with startup movement less than 10 mph.

I've imagined CO2 cartridges in combination with various color LEDs might make for some impressive blow out...

Severn posted:

I've imagined CO2 cartridges in combination with various color LEDs might make for some impressive blow out...

What sort of a "blow out" are you talking about!

I'll add my vote to do away with the traction tires for more realistic operation too. Our modern locomotives have enough weight to pull a substantial number of cars anyway. If you need more traction, just have it dump sand on the rails!      No?  ... er,   Well then do as the real ones do and add a helper engine!  

c.sam posted:

I'll add my vote to do away with the traction tires for more realistic operation too. Our modern locomotives have enough weight to pull a substantial number of cars anyway. If you need more traction, just have it dump sand on the rails!      No?  ... er,   Well then do as the real ones do and add a helper engine!  

Well,,,,,,in reality, the REAL ones do "dump sand on the rails" in order to attempt to control/prevent wheel slip (even the modern diesels still use sand).  Sure wouldn't want to do that with the models, however. But, I also agree; get rid of the tires!

Perhaps a special track section could be employed to capture it in such a way that the effect is to slightly raise the drive wheel above rail while still supplying power.  Under legacy, any infrared sensored variety similar to sensortrack could then be sent through it a command to go through the "wheel slip simulation" sequence.... eventually ending in lowering the special track section and the engine continuing on its journey.

Perhaps a special track section could be employed to capture it in such a way that the effect is to slightly raise the drive wheel above rail while still supplying power.   

Aren't we overthinking how to get 'wheel slip'?  Raising the engine?  Taking the tires off?

Why wouldn't we simply have a retractable pin between the rails that can be raised, for example, between the engine and tender sufficiently to capture an axle.....or, better yet, work against a 'water scoop-like' feature attached to the tender frame that will keep the engine from moving forward?

Then, give 'er the juice until the wheels spin!

Seems pretty simple to me.    .....Especially since this happened accidentally one time when I left a track screw standing too high after an alignment repair.  (Black screws, poor eyesight, haste........old age.....bad combination sometimes!)  Of course that was not a very timely or elegant happening, lacked the sounds (from the engine....not from my mouth!),  billows of smoke,  a 'heavy train' consisting of more than just the engine and tender (), and required some cosmetic repair to the pilot area of the engine!  

Besides, if we're going to go to all the trouble to raise the engine, you might as well rotate the tires while you're at it!

FWIW, always

Lucas Gudinov

The next big feature for O scale trains?  Lasers.  Lots and lots of lasers.

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

The next big feature for O scale trains?  Lasers.  Lots and lots of lasers.

or we all can make the switch to DCC like the rest of the model train world and be able to have all those features added to your existing model in a board package that is 1x4x.5 inches and allows you to change all the sounds and sound types and sound volume levels for those individual sounds. Also included is speed control, smoke unit outputs, lighting outputs with programmable light types (mars light for example) and 11 other output functions to control whatever you want???

At least MTH sort of has with PS3....

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

"... Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O?"

There's some excellent vids of this on you tube, such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vgSnVHYSk

It's been on my list for a while to get some Hornby models ...  all the more reason! 

(I believe its OO-scale on HO-track)

Cowcatcher to cab full warranty for 3 years on all engines costing over $800..

Bruk posted:

or we all can make the switch to DCC like the rest of the model train world and be able to have all those features added to your existing model in a board package that is 1x4x.5 inches and allows you to change all the sounds and sound types and sound volume levels for those individual sounds. Also included is speed control, smoke unit outputs, lighting outputs with programmable light types (mars light for example) and 11 other output functions to control whatever you want???

At least MTH sort of has with PS3....

Alleluia!

+1!

Severn posted:

"... Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O?"

There's some excellent vids of this on you tube, such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vgSnVHYSk

It's been on my list for a while to get some Hornby models ...  all the more reason! 

(I believe its OO-scale on HO-track)

Yeah OO scale is the European equivalent of HO scale. The locos and rolling stock there is much smaller than ours. OO scale is 1/77 or so while American HO scale is 1/87. In O scale, American trains are scaled to 1/48, while European trains are scaled to 1/43.5 or 1/45 due to the size disparity. 

I wish it was easier to do live steam. With 3 rails you could run the train and power coaches and other non-live steam trains on the same track. It wouldn't short anything out as no metal is touching the inner 3rd rail. This would also take care of the wheelslip thing everyone wants. Live steamers in smaller scales like G will slip a lot with heavy trains. A Challenger in G scale slipped with 35 cars but eventually found its footing and took off.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Cowcatcher to cab full warranty for 3 years on all engines costing over $800..

They'll pack everything (expensive) in the tender and then say it's not covered!!

The two points raised so far that caught my eye are:

1. Battery Power - Taking the transformer out of the equation will be a large leap, but it is coming.

2. Voice Command - watching my father age I can see a great use for voice command to run a layout for the elder hobbyist. In addition I would love to have my LOTF (Layout Of The Future) enabled with voice command. I think it would add immensely to the experience.

Paul

GenesisFan99 posted:

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

Have you given thought of how to maintain a live steam model, plus the effect of water, hot oil and steam on your scenery?  Plus accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive for whatever reason?

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

Have you given thought of how to maintain a live steam model, plus the effect of water, hot oil and steam on your scenery?  Plus accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive for whatever reason?

Rusty

I doubt the scenery would be affected much. I am fully aware of what it takes to maintain a live steam loco and the risk of accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive. If you buy a live steam loco you should know what comes with owning one before you buy it.

Lionel is on the right track with feature development. I especially like whistle steam effect in their Legacy locomotives. I've yet to see the cylinder steam effect in person - the videos look good. It would be nice to see both of these features incorporated into all their Legacy engines. A swinging bell feature is neat, but was only offered on a couple of models. Their wireless engine to tender connection is appreciated, as is offering multiple speakers in some models. Other than the wireless tender connection that is almost a standard, I guess what I am hoping for is more standardization of features across the Legacy line 1-2 years after they're initially offered in the Vision line.

GenesisFan99 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

Have you given thought of how to maintain a live steam model, plus the effect of water, hot oil and steam on your scenery?  Plus accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive for whatever reason?

Rusty

I doubt the scenery would be affected much. I am fully aware of what it takes to maintain a live steam loco and the risk of accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive. If you buy a live steam loco you should know what comes with owning one before you buy it.

I've had two R/C controlled Roundhouse live steam locomotives (and the Ruby as a starter into live steam), and I can't see operation indoors as a reasonable choice. There is some water "spitting" at the initial firings as water heats. Outdoors? They are perfect.

Paul Kallus posted:

A swinging bell feature is neat, but was only offered on a couple of models.

Many steam locomotives have a fixed bell, so having it swinging would look silly.

Have the Fireman grab a shovel, walk across deck plate, get shovel load of coal and toss it into the firebox.  He could do this a few times. It would be nice to turn this feature on/off anytime with remote or smartphone.

Paultrainguy posted:

Have the Fireman grab a shovel, walk across deck plate, get shovel load of coal and toss it into the firebox.  He could do this a few times. It would be nice to turn this feature on/off anytime with remote or smartphone.

Good grief! The ultimate maintenance nightmare. Besides, how would that work with those big steam locomotive models with stokers?

Paultrainguy posted:

Have the Fireman grab a shovel, walk across deck plate, get shovel load of coal and toss it into the firebox.  He could do this a few times. It would be nice to turn this feature on/off anytime with remote or smartphone.

Rusty

I'm controlling my Legacy locos with an Arduino, much as Professor Chaos has done.  And now I'm using a MOVI voice-recognition shield to give my trains voice commands such as "U.P. 4004, proceed" which sends a command to the loco to start moving at a given speed and momentum.  Ultimately, I'll simulate more of a two-way conversation.

The voice recognition is pretty easy with the MOVI board, and is speaker independent (no voice training), but you need to define all possible phrases in advance of course.  Once you've done that, you can assign any phrase to trigger any Legacy command or set of commands.

The more challenging part was programming the Arduino to talk to Legacy, but it's working perfectly now.  I had to become an LCS Partner to get all of the low-level commands.  Professor Chaos did it with TMCC and DCS, which inspired me to make it work with Legacy.

It would be a much bigger step to turn this into a commercial product that anyone could use, but certainly do-able.  Right now, I can modify the software to work with any new layout I might build because the layout is represented in a data table -- so I simply change the table when I build a bigger layout.

My primary goal is to get a half-dozen trains running at the same time, autonomously -- without collisions and without deadlocks, on routes that the computer chooses.  Trains will automatically slow to a stop as they enter destination sidings, make announcements, etc.  I'm almost there -- the hardware is done (turnout motor control, occupancy sensors, Legacy interface to Arduino, etc.), and I've done everything with proof-of-concept code and am now putting all of the software pieces together.  I'm using seven Arduinos but I might add another one dedicated to voice control -- it will only add about $15 to the cost of the project to do so, though I'm running out of room in my control panel! ;-)

Steam shoot out the side, like pulling off from station 

Have the engineer waving his hand as he drove by.

Rusty Traque posted:

Paultrainguy posted:

Have the Fireman grab a shovel, walk across deck plate, get shovel load of coal and toss it into the firebox.  He could do this a few times. It would be nice to turn this feature on/off anytime with remote or smartphone.

Rusty

A FINE EXAMPLE of what you can do with DCC Decoders and tiny gear reduction motors guys.....

My vote would go toward standardizing these existing advanced features across products. MTH has only offered its whistle steam effect in one model (the Big Boy). Lionel has offered it in more engines, for example the semi-scale T1 of a few years ago and the GN 4-8-4 set) but there have been no offerings of whistle steam, swinging bells, etc. on smaller scale steam locomotives like an H9 Consolidation. For what my opinion is worth, I think that the manufacturers have most of the advanced features I'd ever want in a steam engine: the area I think is the new frontier in O scale locomotives is miniaturizing existing technology to fit inside an engine that can negotiate curves smaller than O-54. 

As far as diesels go (and this also applies to steam to an extent), there needs to be, in general, an increase in accuracy and prototype fidelity. In HO, one can buy a Southern Pacific MP15AC with the correct light package and a sound set that, if lacking in audio volume and fidelity, nonetheless incorporates more sounds than a comparable O gauge locomotive (e.g. dynamic braking sounds on models so equipped). One would think that, since there is more space in the locomotive for features, certain effects (like ground lights) and prototypical rear ditchlights would have become standard long ago, but such is not the case. 

To sum up, there needs to be miniaturization of existing features and an increase in fidelity to compete with other scales.  

Great video Rusty!  I would absolutely buy a vision line steamer with an operating fireman!

TM Terry posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

Have you given thought of how to maintain a live steam model, plus the effect of water, hot oil and steam on your scenery?  Plus accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive for whatever reason?

Rusty

I doubt the scenery would be affected much. I am fully aware of what it takes to maintain a live steam loco and the risk of accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive. If you buy a live steam loco you should know what comes with owning one before you buy it.

I've had two R/C controlled Roundhouse live steam locomotives (and the Ruby as a starter into live steam), and I can't see operation indoors as a reasonable choice. There is some water "spitting" at the initial firings as water heats. Outdoors? They are perfect.

I figure most people would start the firing process in a spot that is convenient to do so, where the spitting wouldn't matter so much.

Paul Kallus posted:

Lionel is on the right track with feature development. I especially like whistle steam effect in their Legacy locomotives. I've yet to see the cylinder steam effect in person - the videos look good. It would be nice to see both of these features incorporated into all their Legacy engines. A swinging bell feature is neat, but was only offered on a couple of models. Their wireless engine to tender connection is appreciated, as is offering multiple speakers in some models. Other than the wireless tender connection that is almost a standard, I guess what I am hoping for is more standardization of features across the Legacy line 1-2 years after they're initially offered in the Vision line.

 

The cylinder steam sync'd with start up sound MTH has would be great if Lionel would do it correctly with alternating discharge spots. As John mentions, not all engines have the swinging bell. The Lionel IR wireless drawbar is the best feature of all time if you ask our guests who just place the tender and then the engine on the tracks and go. No fuss!

I’m happy with what I have now.

The only thing that I can think of that I would like to see is having steam come out multiple places like on a real steam engine, aside from just the Whistle and Stack, maybe at least the dynamo and cylinders. I know they packed 5 smoke units in the new vision line Niagara coming out, though I will probably not end up getting it.

If I am right a steam engine has steam coming out of the Stack, the whistle(when it is blown), the cylinders(usually only when starting up if I am right), the dynamo, the pop off(only at certain times if I am right), and the blow down.

Is there anything other areas the blow steam, since I am very limited in my knowledge of steam engines, of course then they would probably have to put a warning on the box somewhere saying they highly recommend to have an air purifier when running this train. Due to the downturn of common sense currently.

GenesisFan99 posted:

TM Terry posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

If live steam could be made competitive and user friendly, I could see it competing with top-end Legacy locomotives. G scale locos (depending on model) go up to $10k for stuff like Big Boys but around $6k for stuff like J class locos. The concept of R/C live steam works and any number of features could be added to make the experience even better (TMCC/DCS/DCC receivers). If Hornby can do live steam in HO scale, why can't we have mainstream live steam in O? Just a thought.

Have you given thought of how to maintain a live steam model, plus the effect of water, hot oil and steam on your scenery?  Plus accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive for whatever reason?

Rusty

I doubt the scenery would be affected much. I am fully aware of what it takes to maintain a live steam loco and the risk of accidentally grabbing a hot locomotive. If you buy a live steam loco you should know what comes with owning one before you buy it.

I've had two R/C controlled Roundhouse live steam locomotives (and the Ruby as a starter into live steam), and I can't see operation indoors as a reasonable choice. There is some water "spitting" at the initial firings as water heats. Outdoors? They are perfect.

I figure most people would start the firing process in a spot that is convenient to do so, where the spitting wouldn't matter so much.

I once tried removing a recently run live steam locomotive from the track. Let's just say it is a little hotter than ambient temperature. I would not consider trying to assure the wheels are properly placed on track of a fully steaming locomotive (at operation temperature). Even any carrying would require fairly thick insulated gloves and with those "fat thumbs", getting the wheels properly placed... well, I'd be looking for a volunteer.

scott.smith posted:

Take off your traction tires and you will have that.

Scott Smith

I knew I read about this somewhere!