The "O-Scale" Gateman. A real disappointment.

Most of the postwar stuff and postwar reissues are not anywhere near scale.

The gate man, railroad crossing flasher, cross bucks, cross bucks with lights,  prewar flagman,etc.  They were originally marketed for standard or o gauge and nowhere near scale for o gauge.

MTH and K-Line have gateman shacks that are close to scale and look pretty good.

With that being said I love my Lionel 45n gateman shack.  It’s tinplate and the lantern is lit from below.

Also the Lionel gateman is not O scale, it is O gauge and meant to be a toy, not a realistic part of a scale layout.  I have always appreciated the smile on a child’s face when the little blue man pops out of the building and waves his lantern at the passing train.                  
                 
                                                               “ Priceless “

By the way, I believe the Lionel gateman has been in production since 1935, that would be over 85 years of making children smile.

Err,  Keith,

The face of the box says "O" Scale, not O Gauge.

LOL ,wait til Manny gets his hands on one of the 154 crossing signals

Piffle.  This is like complaining that the Mickey Mouse handcar isn't scale.

The Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge trains, and no one gave a hoot about scale.  It was designed to keep children interested and occupied, not earn someone a MMR badge.  As to quality, quite a few of those 85-year-old toys continue to work well today.  That, my friend, is quality, quality that few modern products will ever equal.

A good friend of mine once complained that the taco salad he was served at a restaurant had lettuce in it.

P.S.-  A Blue Man with no face would, I think, make a child cringe, not smile.

I think I'm gonna replace him with a figure of a cowboy with a shotgun.  :-)

Pallalin,

If the Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge, then they need to take "O" Scale off of the box.

You train guys are an interesting crew.  You get outraged if a certain model Locomotive has a bell glued on it, instead of a whistle like the original, but if a product says its "O" Scale, and it isn't, then you are fine with that.   :-)

Mannyrock

Mannyrock, I may be in the market for one. My dads postwar gateman lost his hand and flag. Can you post a picture of your gateman? We might be able to make a deal.

Thanks.

Charlie

@Mannyrock posted:

Pallalin,

If the Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge, then they need to take "O" Scale off of the box.

You train guys are an interesting crew.  You get outraged if a certain model Locomotive has a bell glued on it, instead of a whistle like the original, but if a product says its "O" Scale, and it isn't, then you are fine with that.   :-)

Mannyrock

It was also sold as an O Scale accessory because scale was not only fluid but relatively unimportant at the time, Manny.  That obsession is contemporary (and I do not happen to share it).  I happen to appreciate all the various kinds of toy trains (they are all toys unless they are 1:1 scale AND generate revenue).  I appreciate a well-detailed scale model for what it is; I appreciate the Gateman for what it is.  I have no problem with lettuce in my taco salad, but I don't want it on my burrito

I do not happen to share the obsession with electronic gimcrakery, either.

Charlie,

That's the thing.  This one doesn't have a flag!   His left arm is molded tightly to his body, with nothing in the hand.  His right are is a dangling plastic arm, hanging on a thin plastic pin, and holding a lantern.  I guess that when the figure is thrust outside and through the little door, then that hanging arm is suppose to momentarily shake back and forth from momentum, and that's about it. 

I saw some pictures of old ones, where I think the guy's right hand is holding a flag, but this one is nothing like that.  :-(

If I keep it, I'm going to drill a hole in his left hand, and stick a real thin flexible spring in it, like the spring from a ball point pen, and put a flag on the end of it.  Hopefully, when he comes out, the spring willwag back and forth from hitting the door, and waive the flag.

Mannyrock

Charlie,

It appears that there may be two models, the 145 Gateman, and the 45 Gateman.  I think the 45 Gateman is a tintype.

If you go to Ebay and search for Lionel 145 Gateman, you will see that you can buy the entire man, with arm and lantern attached, or just the arm with the lantern, or just the lantern itself, each for under $8.00.   

Mannyrock

Manny

A search of eBay shows the original Lionel 145 Automatic Gateman box does not  say O scale as well as the reissue from 1987 which does say " LIONEL Big, Rugged Trains & Tradition since 1900, O and O27 Gauge Automatic Gateman.  A search of eBay Gateman items with pictures would show the Gateman was a giant as well as his shack.

The Gateman is one of Lionel's most popular accessory.  Lionel trains almost never said any of their trains were scale models with 700E scale Hudson locomotive and later 773 Hudson being exceptions.  Most Lionel trains sold were 3 rail O27 which is about 20% small than 1/4 inch to the foot O scale.  These and 3 rail O gauge were TOY trains with no pretense to be scale model trains or accessories.

This forum is Hi-rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O GAUGE.

There is a forum for 3-Rail SCALE.

Charlie

Wow.

You should meet his cousins, the original Blue Man Group, that ride on the #50 Gang Car.

Sorry Charlie,

I am holding the box in my hand.  The front of the box says:  "O" Scale, LIONEL AUTOMATIC GATEMAN.

It does not say model 145 Gateman.  The Product number on the side of the box is 6-2145.

So, this is not the 145 Gateman.  It was built under a license by Lionel to use its name and gateman engineering  design.  The license was granted to General Mills.

In small print, on the back of the box, at the very bottom, it says:  Lionel of Fundimensions, A Division of General Mills Fun Group, Inc.

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Mannyrock

That's because at that time Lionel was no longer a model train company.  All Lionel trains were made by General Mills at the time.

Lionel would probably not exist today if it wasn't for General Mills.

Rusty

Doing a quick Google search, the Gateman (the one we are talking about with the shack and man that comes out) seems to consistently come with a lantern on the end of the arm (may not always have a lighting effect for the lantern though, IIRC).

The Flagman (no shack, generally some sort of cross-bucks on the platform) has (wait for it....!) a Flag on the end of his arm!.   Link to Lionel instructions.  Do a Google search on Lionel 6-12892.  I don't have a picture I own to paste the actual photo.

The Flagman is just as out of scale as the Gateman.  But he does have the flag on the end of his arm.

And yeah, as Rusty mentioned, it's not that Lionel "allowed" the MPC division of General Mills to make the trains.  MPC/General Mills were Lionel as it existed as a company at that time.

-Dave

Mannyrock,  I think your best bet would be to acquire a MTH or K-Line watchman. ( They do not use the term gateman ) They are both close to scale although I think the MTH model looks a little better.  They generally sell for about the same price as a 145 however some road specific names sell for a little more. E-bay has several on their site for you to look at and this will give you an idea of what I am talking about.  As far as boxes I have looked through the archives and am unable to find a box that says O scale so your box must be an early MPC box when the “ new Lionel “ licensing agreement took place. They were in their infancy and made some mistakes but I think most people will agree that if it were not for General Mills, we might not be playing with our trains right now.  

There are generally three camps in model railroading.

1 ) Those that build and operate scale or close to it

2 ) Those that consider their trains toys and have no problem with a gateman being taller than the trains they operate

3 ) Those who can appreciate both.

I am in the third camp.

My dad bought me the gate man in 1949. He still works well to this day. That clink when the door closes is a sound from my yute that I love.

Just personal preference, I use the #0145 (H0) Gateman on my layout. It's a little big for H0, and a little small for 0, but it's Lionel.

I'm thinking of taking all my toy accessories - crossing gates, flashers, cross bucks, gateman etc - with my G scale stuff. It would certainly look better since my G stuff is all toy like Christmas anyway.

Gads guys, it's time for Gateman to retire and enjoy The World's Greatest Hobby from the comfort of his home.

How about a Century 21 scale verson?  Mark, The Menards Train Guy, do you read me?

I have my oversized Automatic Gateman in the back part of the layout.  Distance makes things seam smaller.  But I am one who has some Matchbox HO sized autos and trucks on my Toy O27 layout too.  I think scales are things that cut your hands on some fish!

Perspective can make things appear to be smaller or larger than they are.

Charlie

Great information from all.  Thanks.

And for your Archives:

It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it.  Price was $17.95.

I think that my final solution will be:

1.  Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.

2.  Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit.  (There are some great ones out there.)  I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.

3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale  railroad gateman figure.

4.  Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars.  (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)

Mannyrock

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Gads guys, it's time for Gateman to retire and enjoy The World's Greatest Hobby from the comfort of his home.

How about a Century 21 scale verson?  Mark, The Menards Train Guy, do you read me?

MTH has already done this. Just as they have done with most of the Lionel "postwar style accessories"  and operating cars for that matter, IMPROVED them. Yes, MTH will be greatly missed, trains and accessories alike.

Heres a video from another forum member  Country Joe:

@Mannyrock posted:

...In small print, on the back of the box, at the very bottom, it says:  Lionel of Fundimensions, A Division of General Mills Fun Group, Inc.

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Manny, you need to read up on the history of Lionel. At the time your product was made, General Mills WAS Lionel. They owned the company, lock, stock and barrel.

Thanks Rich,

I assumed it was a license for product production, which is what the vast majority of companies that own a valuable registered trademark or tradename do.

I was unaware that they sold everything to General Mills, including the tradename and all manufacturing designs.

If this was the case, then "Lionel" died on that day.  Since General Mills owned the tradename and assets, they could slap the name on anything whatsoever they wanted, including shoddy goods.

Remember when the Maytag made washing machines that lasted a full 20 years?   (My mother only went through two of them in her entire 78 year life.)

Well, several years ago, Maytag went bankrupt, and sold its tradename to a new company, that then slapped the name "Maytag" on the cheapest junk washing machines that the Chinese could make.  Unfortunately, I bought one, for $800.  It lasted three years, then the plastic drum assembly broker, and then was unrepairable  (unless I wanted to pay $750 to repair it), so it went to the landfill.  :-(

Mannyrock

Thanks for the advice regarding the MTH and K-Line watchmen.   I took a long look at them online.  They both look great.  Obviously, very high quality products compared to the Lionel.

For now, since I paid less than $20 for the Lionel Watchman, I guess I'll try my El-Cheapo solution.  I think the next $90 I'll spend  will be for a used MPC locomotive.

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

The Lionel Corporation sold the tooling used to make Lionel trains and accessories and American Flyer train and accessories to General Mills in 1969, and leased the rights to use the Lionel name for a percentage of net sales.  That agreement survived until 1995 when Richard Kughn purchased the remaining assets of the dying Lionel Corporation, and recombined them as Lionel, LLC.

The only difference between the Lionel Corporation Post War #145 Operating Gateman, and the General Mills Modern Era 6-2145 unit is the lack of paint on the face.  In fact, many parts were from leftover Post War inventory.  

The “cheap” version was introduced in 1987, when the man wasn’t even painted blue, and the base was changed from stamped steel to cardboard.  The building was molded in bright yellow translucent plastic.

Also, nobody seriously ever uses the pressure plate for anything other than taking up space under the layout.

Jon

Sorry Gramps... we were both typing at the same time!

Jon

Well then Kooljock, it sounds as if  I was correct.   Lionel retained ownership of its name and merely licensed it to General Mills when it sold them its other assets.  (A lease of an intellectual property right is called a license.)

But here is the sad part.  When the owner of a tradename (such as Lionel Company) licenses a tradename to a manufacturer (such as General Mills), the licensor must and does retain a final right of approval, in the license agreement, as to the quality, condition, and design of the products upon which the tradename will be displayed or stamped, as well as the manner and mode of how the tradename will appear in marketing material.  Why?  Because if the do not retain this right of approval, then the license is regarded as a "naked license", which means that the licensee could slap the name on any type of product, of any type of quality, it desired (no matter how junky), and use the tradename in advertising, in any manner or mode it desired.    If this happens, then the tradename becomes worthless and generic.  Eventually, it is regarded as available for public use.

So, sadly, Lionel company gave its final approval to General Mills, on all of the cheapened products it made.  Why did they do this?  Because Lionel needed those royalty payments for each item sold, and if they were too tough on standards with General Mills, then General Mills would just stop using the license and stop paying the royalties.

In most of these types of instances, to get the approval,  the licensee would send to the licensor a package with the final design and products specs, and the proposed advertising materials, and the licensor would give it  a "quick once over", make a few small suggestions for corrections, and then after the corrections are made, grant its approval for to the licensee.  Out the door the product would go, and the licensor would get its royalty.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Thanks for the advice regarding the MTH and K-Line watchmen.   I took a long look at them online.  They both look great.  Obviously, very high quality products compared to the Lionel.

For now, since I paid less than $20 for the Lionel Watchman, I guess I'll try my El-Cheapo solution.  I think the next $90 I'll spend  will be for a used MPC locomotive.

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

After reading your reviews of the $20 gateman, I can't wait to see your reaction to a used $90 MPC locomotive

I don’t know what you mean by out of scale. They were selling full size casts of the skeleton of the real life model for the “o-scale" #145 Gateman” this year at Home Depot. Just build a crossing shack around him and put a lantern in his hand.

I don’t see the problem with the toy version. They are called toy trains.

Goodness. So many words.

Here is a post-war 145 Gateman from around 1960. It was part of the sets my brother and I had in early 60’s. Since our Dad screwed the track to a 4’x8’ sheet of plywood, and I had Super-O track, it never got very much use (so it is still in pretty good condition). Check out the price

I bought a used Gateman accessory for $3 from a junk box at a local train show. It was rough, not working and missing  parts.  I did a complete restoration job on it.  Total investment about $20 in parts and paint with about 10 hours of relaxing time spent in the train room.  Return on the investment....priceless. 

How much  of our modern "scale" stuff will still be serviceable in 90 years?

PS1 ?  PS2 5volt?  MTH ?? Legacy  ?? TMCC??

I think the 12 foot tall blue guy will have the last laugh! 

@john in western pa posted:

How much  of our modern "scale" stuff will still be serviceable in 90 years?

How many of us will still be around in 90 years for it to matter?

On the whole, General Mills quality started where the Lionel Corporation left off, and then got better each year after.

The tooling and probably parts on your Gateman is from the Post War Lionel Corporation.  You have a treasure.

Jon

@Silver Lake posted:

I don’t know what you mean by out of scale. They were selling full size casts of the skeleton of the real life model for the “o-scale" #145 Gateman” this year at Home Depot. Just build a crossing shack around him and put a lantern in his hand.

I don’t see the problem with the toy version. They are called toy trains.

Every once in a while, I see something which I cannot understand why ANYONE would want, or buy it... that definitely qualifies...

@Mannyrock posted:

Well then Kooljock, it sounds as if  I was correct.   Lionel retained ownership of its name and merely licensed it to General Mills when it sold them its other assets.  (A lease of an intellectual property right is called a license.)

But here is the sad part.  When the owner of a tradename (such as Lionel Company) licenses a tradename to a manufacturer (such as General Mills), the licensor must and does retain a final right of approval, in the license agreement, as to the quality, condition, and design of the products upon which the tradename will be displayed or stamped, as well as the manner and mode of how the tradename will appear in marketing material.  Why?  Because if the do not retain this right of approval, then the license is regarded as a "naked license", which means that the licensee could slap the name on any type of product, of any type of quality, it desired (no matter how junky), and use the tradename in advertising, in any manner or mode it desired.    If this happens, then the tradename becomes worthless and generic.  Eventually, it is regarded as available for public use.

So, sadly, Lionel company gave its final approval to General Mills, on all of the cheapened products it made.  Why did they do this?  Because Lionel needed those royalty payments for each item sold, and if they were too tough on standards with General Mills, then General Mills would just stop using the license and stop paying the royalties.

In most of these types of instances, to get the approval,  the licensee would send to the licensor a package with the final design and products specs, and the proposed advertising materials, and the licensor would give it  a "quick once over", make a few small suggestions for corrections, and then after the corrections are made, grant its approval for to the licensee.  Out the door the product would go, and the licensor would get its royalty.

Mannyrock

Hindsight is always 20-20.  That's why no one wears glasses on their butt.

I don't get it.  Would you be expecting the Lionel of 1969 Lionel to be producing 21st century style trains?  Don't forget, the last years of "Original" Lionel was cheapened considerably from the glory days of the 50's.

You're being way to hard on General Mills.  They used the tooling and assets they bought.  And they were reliable for the most part.  They were still making TOY trains with a customer base at the time mostly interested in Postwar styling.  The "Scalification" of Lionel for the most part didn't begin until well into the Khun era.

And besides, you can't change the past.

Rusty

Personnaly, I think if Mannyrock is disappointed with his Lionel “o scale” Gateman he should locate a Marx operating signalman who is riveted to the door of the shack and then will we ever hear him roar.😜

I'd suspect the marking "O" Scale on the box was possibly to make sure it was easily differentiated from "HO", which was probably still in it's expansion in popularity at the time.

The O may be in quotes so people were more likely to know it was not meant for HO.  (Less returns to TRU because "it's too big for the trains I have at home"... )

Especially because both were sold in the same aisle at Toys R Us at the time.  There was a small amount of Lionel and then Tyco and possibly Bachmann (not 100% sure TRU sold Bachmann, that may have been at Child World) for the HO stuff, possibly up to roughly the mid 80's.

It's not like the TRU employees would know much more about the train aisle than any other aisle.  So a label that was helpful to make the general public more likely to understand what was in the box seems like a good idea.

The general public doesn't know the difference between scale and gauge the way people here do.  Especially not the general public from the 70's and 80's, before everyone had this interweb thingy in their pocket where they could look up stuff they didn't know on the spot.

-Dave

Besides my Lionel set Santa Claus gave me Christmas 1958 (my most treasured train item by the way)  my second item is an early 1950's Gateman my father in law gave me from his layout. It works perfectly and my grandchildren love it more then some of the gee wiz stuff I have 😀

I think Dave's explanation is the most likely.

OK, great thread.  I think we're done here!

Mannyrock

Manny:

The toy train side of 3-rail may not be your "happy place".

Andre

I’m sure the O Scale was just as others said , to differentiate the product from HO product that was on the same aisle in toy stores . As for quality of MPC, there were a few things that were cheapened , but the vast majority of the items were improvements on the items produced by the Lionel Corp during its last few years of train production. Many of those were a far cry from the quality products from Lionel’s golden age . The books recommended do give great insight into the era. The Lionel Corp at the time didn’t care about what MPC made , only that the royalty checks came on time . The train line was going to be discontinued anyways. If not for MPC it is possible all the tooling and equipment would have been lost forever

You must be very new to the hobby not to know about Lionel's gateman.

Mannyrock, you need to start doing a little research before you make acquisitions. All the information has been out there on the Lionel Gateman accessory you bought. You were only surprised because you didn’t do your homework. And incorrectly assuming that General Mills created the oversized, blue figure design was flat out wrong.

The scale of the building and the figure most likely has to be 1/24th scale.

Andrew

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Manny

A search of eBay shows the original Lionel 145 Automatic Gateman box does not  say O scale as well as the reissue from 1987 which does say " LIONEL Big, Rugged Trains & Tradition since 1900, O and O27 Gauge Automatic Gateman.  A search of eBay Gateman items with pictures would show the Gateman was a giant as well as his shack.

The Gateman is one of Lionel's most popular accessory.  Lionel trains almost never said any of their trains were scale models with 700E scale Hudson locomotive and later 773 Hudson being exceptions.  Most Lionel trains sold were 3 rail O27 which is about 20% small than 1/4 inch to the foot O scale.  These and 3 rail O gauge were TOY trains with no pretense to be scale model trains or accessories.

This forum is Hi-rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O GAUGE.

There is a forum for 3-Rail SCALE.

Charlie

Add to the same time the PRR 0-6-0 switcher, tank car, hopper, and caboose.  Just enough for a train set.  And very late prewar.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Hindsight is always 20-20.  That's why no one wears glasses on their butt.

I don't get it.  Would you be expecting the Lionel of 1969 Lionel to be producing 21st century style trains?  Don't forget, the last years of "Original" Lionel was cheapened considerably from the glory days of the 50's.

You're being way to hard on General Mills.  They used the tooling and assets they bought.  And they were reliable for the most part.  They were still making TOY trains with a customer base at the time mostly interested in Postwar styling.  The "Scalification" of Lionel for the most part didn't begin until well into the Khun era.

And besides, you can't change the past.

Rusty

The first few "Standard O" cars came out about 1974.  2 boxcars, 2 refers, and 1(?) gon.  You are right.  The teal scale pushbwasca lot later.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

The first few "Standard O" cars came out about 1974.  2 boxcars, 2 refers, and 1(?) gon.  You are right.  The teal scale pushbwasca lot later.

Correct.  They were made by Pola (who formerly made them for AHM) and had a bizarre off center mounting on the trucks so they'd go around O27 curves.

Rusty

This has to be the most "Alice in Wonderland" type discussion of 2020, perhaps in the history of the forum.  Congratulations to all.

@Mannyrock posted:

Great information from all.  Thanks.

And for your Archives:

It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it.  Price was $17.95.

I think that my final solution will be:

1.  Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.

2.  Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit.  (There are some great ones out there.)  I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.

3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale  railroad gateman figure.

4.  Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars.  (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)

Mannyrock

And then you will complain about the door and building is out of scale, You bought an item that when it said scale, the term scale was not used as it is today. Today it means 1:48/1:50 back then it meant it was for O scale trains of that period and scale was not to mean true scale. It was considered a toy.

As several others have noted; true scale in 3 rail didn’t really begin to come into play until the Kughn era at Lionel.  Heck; if you look back through Lionel catalogs from the mid-50’s and later, they would routinely refer to what we now know as “traditional” size rolling stock as scale.

ALL of us were new to the hobby at one point and have misjudged the size of pieces.  (God knows, I’m guilty as charged in that regard!) So; the best advice I read above is to do some familiarization and know what you’re buying BEFORE you buy it. 😉

Curt

The blue guy is clearly shown with no paint or detail on the box. What did you expect exactly?

If you look at the box again you will see that O scale is written "O" Scale with scare quotes around it.   That lets them off the hook. 

The original had a clever device to it - there was a light below - and a little porthole.  When the Gate man emerged, he stopped over the porthole, and it shone a light up at the lantern giving the illusion that it was lit. 

3-rail O-Gauge/"O-Scale" ain't for everybody.  As a matter of fact, if it fails to meet one's expectations, maybe they should forget about "O" and look at switching to another scale.

Or find another hobby altogether.

Jim R,

Thanks for your comment, but you are mistaken.   I thought the product sucked right out of the box, long before I saw the reference to General Mills in tiny print on the back of the box.

For the $20 or so I paid for it, plus the modifications I will have to make, I will definitely come out OK moneywise.

I just didn't plan on this little purchase ending up being a "Project".    (I thought I would only be painting a face and hands on the figure.)   Like most folks, I have enough projects on my plate. :-)

RTrain made a very good point, of which I was unaware, that  when the term O Scale was used in the 60s and 70s, it didn't have the same meaning that the term has today.

And, from other comments above, it appears that the Gateman of the Post War years was of far better quality than the one I got.

Lessons learned.

Mannyrock

Some PW are "close" to scale.  And "close" are to the expectations when they came out:

Chemical tank car with fancy catwalk.

FM engine

F3 engines

Bay window caboose

4 bay hopper

Then again, some of the Lionel stuff makes some TYCO look like HO tineplate.

If any thread deserves to be, 'closed to further comments', it is this one.

Is this a prank thread?    The Gateman has been around for what?    80 years?    It’s one of the greatest accessory for toy trains ever invented

You, sir, are questioning a CLASSIC Lionel accessory that has delighted many thousands of children and adults over 85 years! Really?

....and in case you don't remember what fun that guy was/is....read on

By 1981, word of my annual living room train show, which began in earnest in 1977, had been passed around the water cooler at work.  As a result people would start dropping by my desk in the early part of November, first to ask if I was planning to run trains and then, when I answered in the affirmative, to ask if they could be added to the list of possible visitors.

    Close to the end of the third week in December Paul, one of my co-workers, dropped by and asked if it might be possible to bring his son over to see them.  His boy was about 6 years old and had been deaf since birth.  He mentioned that, at the moment, they were having a very difficult time with him at home with respect to behavior but he assured me he thought he could keep his son under control.  Since Paul was built like a tank I figured he could make good on his assurance so we agreed to get together the following evening.

  Paul came over and, after putting their coats in the hall closet, the three of us walked into the living room.  At the first sight of the expanse of trains and track, Paul gave a sharp intake of breath and quickly reached down and clamped his huge arms around his son, effectively immobilizing his arms and legs.  I sat down, looked his son in the eye, and pointed to the train on the outermost loop and started it rolling.  Paul picked his son up and cradled him so that his head was down close to the train so his son could get the sensation of having it rush by.  Before I started up the second one I again pointed to it and then started it rolling.  Paul mentioned that, for the first time ever, his son wasn't squirming.  I told him that, if he thought everything was OK, we could try just letting his son sit next to me.  Paul set his son next to me and positioned himself so that he could grab him if need be - his son didn't move a muscle.

  When I reached the point in the "show" where I turned on the gateman (it was just inside the first loop of track right next to his son)  I pointed to the house just before the train brought him out.  Paul's son was completely entranced at the sight of the man popping out of the shack.  I think it is safe to say that never before or since has that accessory had a more appreciative audience. Every time the train would approach he would lean over just a little and watch intently and every time the gateman popped out, he would give it a little smile.

  We ran trains for a little more than an hour.  I finished the "show' and invited Paul and his son into the kitchen for some Christmas cookies and some punch.  I was just reaching for the cookies when Paul's son reached up and took me by the hand and gently led me back to the living room.  He stood for a second and then made a sweeping gesture with his free hand and looked me in the eye.  I nodded and sat down in front of the transformers.  Paul's son immediately sat down next to me and gestured once again to the layout.  I started everything up and we ran trains. At the end of 3 hours Paul signed to his son that it was time to go.  He got up, put on his coat, and, just before he left,  he walked back to the living room and gave the Carpet Central a long last look. We never did get to those cookies and punch.

... Ever since, every time I pull old #45/145 out and run him, the first thing I think of is Paul's son.

Robert Butler - Great story, thank you for sharing.

I have the Lionel gateman from my youth and my grandson gets a big kick out of it as I still do. I don't care about "Scale" so it does not bother me.

To the original poster, I would recommend that you just sell it and find something else that fits your model train layout needs.

Dean

@Mannyrock posted:

Geez,    it must have been made when Lionel was on the verge of bankruptcy

The 2145 is virtually the same except for the colors as the 145 made since the late 1950's.

@POTRZBE posted:

My dad bought me the gate man in 1949. He still works well to this day. That clink when the door closes is a sound from my yute that I love.

Yep!   My dad got me my gateman in 1968.   It operates still today on my layout.

My Gateman is sitting in a box in storage with the rest of my train stuff screaming to get out of his little shack.  Unfortunately we haven't found a house and gotten out of this stupid apartment yet.

I miss the little fella......

This thread has been a great reminder of the joy and happiness that the little gateman has brought to thousands of children and adults over the past 85 years, it’s no wonder this little guy has been the most popular accessory Lionel ever produced. There are over 2000 views from people, many with fond memories of this little guy rushing out of his little shack To warn people of impending danger from an oncoming locomotive.

My gateman has occupied the left rear corner of the layout for years, however after reading through this thread I have decided to place him front and center, a position he rightfully deserves.

So manny, from myself and many others here on the OGR forum,                                  Thanks for the memories

As pointed out, K-line Made a scale type variation(not a gateman but of a similar concept), there have also been variations made of tjeLionel News Stand, I believe an ice cream shop, with scale figures. Undoubtedly, accessories haven’t been immune to assuming more scale like proportions in the modern era.

What the majority of the replies state is true: the auto gateman is from an era when Standard Gauge was dominant and o gauge cars came in a wide variety of sizes. If the accessory is indeed 85 years old, it was developed at a during this time. However, the mid-30s was indeed the period in time when “Scale” was starting to cross the minds of those at Lionel- the scale Hudson set and semi-scale switchers Hale from that time period. However, the prewar scale movement momentum ended for Lionel with the onset of WW2 and toy trains reigned once again in the postwar years- albeit in o gauge rather than standard.

That said, if the buyer bought a brand new, MODERN(post 2000) in the box automatic gateman that said “o scale” on the outside AND indicated “1:48 scale proportions”, I’d say there’s a more than reasonable expectation that the item would be scale size.  I’ve found that o scale items now include the “1/48 scale proportions” or “1/48 scale dimensions” to emphasize the item is actually scale since O scale and O gauge had been used interchangeably for quite awhile in both advertising(early modern era to 90s) and in general discussion. If language indicating proportions or dimensions  wasn’t present, however, I wouldn’t expect a scale version of an item that’s traditionally been anything but scale.

when it comes to Lionel and determining if an item is scale or not, definitely check to see if it’s “standard O” or states “1:48 scale proportions” in the description. With MTH, you know premier is scale but railking rolling stock is sometimes scale as well and railking motive power is designated as “imperial”. For both Lionel and MTH, accessories are usually identified as Having “1/48 scale dimensions”. Otherwise, don’t assume that it is scale

@Mannyrock posted:

Great information from all.  Thanks.

And for your Archives:

It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it.  Price was $17.95.

I think that my final solution will be:

1.  Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.

2.  Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit.  (There are some great ones out there.)  I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.

3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale  railroad gateman figure.

4.  Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars.  (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)

Mannyrock

Hey, Mannyrock! You complained a lot about the #145 blue Gateman, even tho' the pic on the box clearly shows him to be a very blue guy, but then you talk about using the contact pressure switch to operate him? That's not very consistent for a guy who claims to have the eye of a scale modeler. Use a couple of plastic insulators to create a 1, 2, or 3-track insulated trigger for the gateman. He may be less blue if U do.

I hate to see the OP reaction when he sees the WB Attack Shack with the Roadrunner and the ultimate genius, WilevE!

If nothing else, this thread has been a lot of fun to read.

Gateman was the first accessory I bought when I built our Christmas tree layout. I was new to Lionel, but I knew he was a giant. Now, I have a Gateman on each of my layouts. Wouldn’t want it any other way.

I have this  very small Christmas theme vignette consisting mostly of Miller Engineering signs.  Tucked in this display is Lionel's Christmas Gatemen.  You really have to look to see him but he magically pops out with every passing.  On the other hand my layout is not scale, but rather consists of past and present vignettes meaningful to our family.

As you can see I am not concerned with "scale".  With that being said, I have not one but two gatemen that have been a favorite with visitors and have operated without flaw for over two decades.

When I acquire an item that does not meet expectations I just sell it or give it away.

Awesome!

I believe the appropriate word for the #45 and #145 Gateman Accessories is "iconic".  There are relatively few items that achieve "iconic" status.  The ZW, the Santa Fe F3, the Operating Milk Car, a bottle of smoke pellets, and the Operating Gateman all fit that category.

I understand the OP is in England, and may not have as much quick access to the knowledge base that we do, but caveat emptor.

Jon

@Robert S. Butler posted:

....and in case you don't remember what fun that guy was/is....read on

By 1981, word of my annual living room train show, which began in earnest in 1977, had been passed around the water cooler at work.  As a result people would start dropping by my desk in the early part of November, first to ask if I was planning to run trains and then, when I answered in the affirmative, to ask if they could be added to the list of possible visitors.

    Close to the end of the third week in December Paul, one of my co-workers, dropped by and asked if it might be possible to bring his son over to see them.  His boy was about 6 years old and had been deaf since birth.  He mentioned that, at the moment, they were having a very difficult time with him at home with respect to behavior but he assured me he thought he could keep his son under control.  Since Paul was built like a tank I figured he could make good on his assurance so we agreed to get together the following evening.

  Paul came over and, after putting their coats in the hall closet, the three of us walked into the living room.  At the first sight of the expanse of trains and track, Paul gave a sharp intake of breath and quickly reached down and clamped his huge arms around his son, effectively immobilizing his arms and legs.  I sat down, looked his son in the eye, and pointed to the train on the outermost loop and started it rolling.  Paul picked his son up and cradled him so that his head was down close to the train so his son could get the sensation of having it rush by.  Before I started up the second one I again pointed to it and then started it rolling.  Paul mentioned that, for the first time ever, his son wasn't squirming.  I told him that, if he thought everything was OK, we could try just letting his son sit next to me.  Paul set his son next to me and positioned himself so that he could grab him if need be - his son didn't move a muscle.

  When I reached the point in the "show" where I turned on the gateman (it was just inside the first loop of track right next to his son)  I pointed to the house just before the train brought him out.  Paul's son was completely entranced at the sight of the man popping out of the shack.  I think it is safe to say that never before or since has that accessory had a more appreciative audience. Every time the train would approach he would lean over just a little and watch intently and every time the gateman popped out, he would give it a little smile.

  We ran trains for a little more than an hour.  I finished the "show' and invited Paul and his son into the kitchen for some Christmas cookies and some punch.  I was just reaching for the cookies when Paul's son reached up and took me by the hand and gently led me back to the living room.  He stood for a second and then made a sweeping gesture with his free hand and looked me in the eye.  I nodded and sat down in front of the transformers.  Paul's son immediately sat down next to me and gestured once again to the layout.  I started everything up and we ran trains. At the end of 3 hours Paul signed to his son that it was time to go.  He got up, put on his coat, and, just before he left,  he walked back to the living room and gave the Carpet Central a long last look. We never did get to those cookies and punch.

... Ever since, every time I pull old #45/145 out and run him, the first thing I think of is Paul's son.

AND THAT is what it is REALLY all about! Pure HAPPINESS!

Yeah,  Robert's post brought an actual tear to my eye... AT WORK!

Jon

Personally, I'm stunned that this diatribe managed to generate a thread three pages long!  Gee, it's an inexpensive operating accessory that was designed long before our obsession with "scale" sizes, it was built for kids!  I think Robert's post captured the true essence of the situation.  I hope that given the right context, accessories like this can capture a little of the kid in each of us.

For goodness sake Mannyrock, if it's that disappointing, just get rid of it!  I'm sure there someone that will appreciate it.

John,

I'm not surprised at all.  Folks like discussing, either pro, con or neutral, different opinions on old school, long standing, classic train items.   It is a nice break from the typical,  "Will the new XYZ Engine have a zig/zag blue tooth Apple app."   Or, the "I can't get the Control Command in my new $400 engine to turn the passenger voices on when the engine backs up."

Even though I proposed that the thread be over, people still enjoy commenting and adding their memories about this simple classic item.

Mannyrock

After all this, I’m going to get me one! Trainnut, did your guy come painted or did you paint it? Also, “little fella”, LOL!

Figure was painted during the Post War era, and recently.  The most recent ones even had painted eyes, eye-brows, shirt and tie!

Jon

This one is an anniversary edition, and the guy is nicely detailed. I was actually hoping to find the Thomas and Friends version, just for something different, but I got a great deal on this one at Allentown.

@NYC Z-MAN posted:

After all this, I’m going to get me one! Trainnut, did your guy come painted or did you paint it? Also, “little fella”, LOL!

LOL!

Yes, the "little fella" was painted ! 😀

To clarify...   it came painted that way.  I did paint the base because I didn't like the drab gray color.

VERY NICE! :-)

I think your Gateman is from 1969.

I'm no expert but the 6-2145 number got me thinking. It's not the 45N or the 145 but 6-2145. Post war by 1 year. I don't know about your piece but it's common knowledge that the man is huge. and with the 45n or the 145 there's a light that shines from the outside floor giving the effect the lantern is lit. The 45N I think was partly prewar carried over to postwar.

@Scrambler81 posted:

This one is an anniversary edition, and the guy is nicely detailed. I was actually hoping to find the Thomas and Friends version, just for something different, but I got a great deal on this one at Allentown.

Do you operate this one? I have this plus a post war version. I understand the new ones with the DC motor drive are fragile with the motor burning out is short order. Looks nice though.

I had to add a full wave bridge and capacitor to tame the hum on my post war version. I had it my Christmas layout one year and the buzz was just too much. Now its much more tolerable.

Pete

Note to mannyrock don't purchase the Lionel barrel loader you won't like that one either! ,

@Norton posted:

Do you operate this one? I have this plus a post war version. I understand the new ones with the DC motor drive are fragile with the motor burning out is short order. Looks nice though.

I had to add a full wave bridge and capacitor to tame the hum on my post war version. I had it my Christmas layout one year and the buzz was just too much. Now its much more tolerable.

Pete

Yes, it is on my basement layout, so he gets a lot of work. I think he has been there about 5 years now. I actually had a perfect Marx gateman there originally. Sadly, I was working on something deeper in the layout, and when I stood up I dragged my hand too low. Broke off the danged gate, and about broke my heart.

This has been a fun thread, a lot of good memories, historical reference, pictures of old and new and nobody got there feelings hurt although a few feathers might have gotten ruffled.  This is one of the reasons why I come to the forum, light hearted discussion about anything train related.