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@palallin posted:

Kline made a modern version of Marx's 1998 with updated trucks, frame , and motors.

Search for K-Line s2 to start:  'bout 100 on the 'Bay for about $75 or less.

I've looked at them. My take on them:

Pro's...

* They have the full length side handrails as per the prototype.

* The end cab windows are already opened and glazed.

* End rails are more fully developed.

* No mechanical E-unit.

Con's...

* They seem to be perched higher on their trucks, giving them a bit of a "high water" look.

* The open ended pilots are a bit of a bother to my eyes.

* Suspect the can motors will react to rheostat slider transformer power transmission just like my K-Line MKT FA's of the past: Jack rabbit start on account of the 5-6 starting volts of a conventional transformer. I had several can-motored engines that suffered from this malady "back when". (The Lionel #8626 4-6-4 steam engine was the first can-powered engine I noticed this on. By contrast, the can-motored RMT Beep ran really nice on my ZW at the time.)

FWIW: I think I could be happy with an RMT Bang.

For the sake of comparisons, here's a picture of a K-Line "S2":

K-Line_S-2

And here's a Marx "1998":

Marx_S2

AND... for the heck of it, here's an RMT Bang:

RMT_Bang

The RMT has many pros to recommend it, but they're almost 6 times more expensive than either the K-Line or a Marx. (Nearly $300... if you can find one.)

Of the three, I like the "stance" of the Marx better. I think the lower height fits the foreshortened model better.

However, with all this nitpicking over traditional-sized trains running on 3-rail track... (let that soak in for a second)... I think it should be obvious my GnC* syndrome is poking-up its illogical and inconsistent head yet again.

* "Gnats n' Camels" syndrome. That is, when it comes to my weird 3-rail tastes, I'll swallow a camel and gag at a gnat.

Clear as mud?

Andre

 

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From the FWIW Dept:

Okay, so I've prosed-on with much pontification about the various pros/cons of K-Line/Marx/RMT's interpretation of an Alco S-2/4. So why stop now, right?

THAT said...

IF I really wanted to push my anal nature about traditional 3-rail to my highest level yet... I would take an RMT (best runner/best detailed of the trio) and stretch it... to make it look even better.

To my eyes, this would help RMT/K-Line versions look their best and the added length does wonders to minimize the "high water" look of the RMT/K-Line versions.

Compare:

RMT_Bang_cf_Stretched

The above stretching results in a pretty stinkin' good lookin' "traditional" switcher, eh?

Downsides: $$$$ (Lots of them.)

Consider: It would take TWO RMT "Bangs" to make ONE stretched version. AND... it would be a ton of work. (Splicing frames, splicing bodies/etc.)

See? You just didn't realize just how insane my insanity could be, did you, huh? Huh? Did you??

No... I'm not seriously entertaining the thought of tackling such a project.

However...

If  I found a couple RMT's at give-away prices... then who knows? I've performed much more involved modifications in HO in years past!

Andre

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  • RMT_Bang_cf_Stretched

TOPIC CHANGE

I'm gonna' leave my above motive power "overthinking" drivel behind for a spell and blather-on about other drivel instead.

Lemons n' Lemonade...

So today's a crappy day. Rain, rain, rain. I had intended to spend quite a bit of time out there in my layout building working on the Switch Tower and other projects... but the rain is a significant deterrent. Traipsing in/out of the rain sucks. 

So what to do?

I decided to piddle-run my engines I've acquired on a small oval on the kitchen table.

2023's:

The FA's work great. They run very smooth and quiet. The horn takes a blow or two to wake up. (Sort of sounds like a sick goat at first.) In all, they have indeed turned out to be a genuine bargain. (i.e. Cost vs value.) Now, what road name to repaint them into? Hmmm.

What to run next? Then I had a wild hair...

You see, over the decades I've frequented these forums at OGR,  I remember well reading about how great Lionel's SP's smelled and have read many times about memories associated with same. Truth of the matter, I don't think I've ever been around SP's in use, either when I was at my Lionel-owning friend's houses in my childhood years, nor in my 3-rail past. (My 3-rail smoke has been all liquid generated.)

Hey! I just happened to have a partial bottle of SP's leftover from years ago.

Hm again.

Well, like Lady Chatterly said to her next prospective lover: "Sure!  Why not?"

So, out came the 2055 and onto the rails it went. Into it's stack went an SP. I preheated it a bit... then cracked the throttle. Off she went with some wisps of SP smoke trailing faintly behind.

I couldn't resist... on the very next run-by I leaned over and took a whiff.

Oh my... no wonder you all like that smell! It smells great! (What I can smell of it, that is. To my olfactory senses, it's a very subtle fragrance. Like an expensive perfume, perhaps? Or, it could be that my smeller don't smell like it used to?  )

Next was the 2065. Same treatment, pop a pill into its stack... preheat... off we go! Ah, that's better. It's a bit more enthusiastic about smoking than the 2055. Not "robust", mind you, but better. Same thing, though: That smell! It really does have its own smell, doesn't it?

I have concluded that Postwar Lionel really has its own set of sensory inputs. It is a totally different experience than running my HO layout. With HO, there's the simulated "heft" in the way the engines run (momentum, very slow speed capabilities, etc), and given the sophistication of today's DCC, the auditory experience is quite realistic.

Postwar is entirely different. It has its own set of sensory inputs. Consider...

* Sight: Bulk. Larger means more visual impact. Plus, if the model happens to be a steam engine, then you can add the whirling of the valve gear, the puffing of the smoke, and such things as that. Impressive.

* Sound: Obviously, there's the sound of the whistle or horn (I'm beginning to think a whistle is preferred by this junkie), but it's far more than that. It's the buzzing E-unit that shouts "Postwar!", it's the sound of the gears and mechanical noises as it paces the rails, it's the clacking over the joints, and more. There's lots of auditory input.

* Smells: Yup, those smells. As I've fawned before, there's that sweet smell of ozone. There's the smell of warm grease and oil... AND... now there's the aroma of SP's to add to the list.

However...

In addition to the sights, sounds, and smells, you can add to it the tactile input of "heft". Not electronic "momentum" as is the case with HO, I'm talking 5 lbs of sure 'nuf heft.  You "feel" Postwar when you pick it up off the shelf (or table) to place it on the rails. Same when you lift it off the rails. You feel it. You can even hear the heft as it pounds and clatters over the rail joints.

SO...

I was able to take lemons (the crappy day) and turned it into lemonade: I ran some Postwar on the kitchen table. Lemonade indeed, and as they circled that simplistic oval, I was smiling like a kid and soaking it up. No wonder kids felt like royalty when they were running their Postwar trains as a youngster in the 50s. They do sound and look quite "Imperial", don't they?

Hey... I think it's stopped raining...

Andre

The K-Line S2 is crazy fast.  By most accounts RMT used different motors in the Bang that were a little calmer, giving a more reasonable speed range.  One trick a lot of folks do, is to rewire the motors in series instead of parallel, so that each one gets half as much voltage.  It also causes the motors to "nudge" each other- when one stalls, the other gets more voltage, etc.  Since the wheels can turn the motor on these, the series wiring works OK, but the Bang is still a better starting point.  You shouldn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  My $.02.

Last edited by Ted S

Thanks for the input, Ted.

I had forgotten about wiring in series to help slow down a jack rabbit.

"You shouldn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  My $.02."

Yup. That's what overthinking will do: It takes me down all sorts of mental rabbit holes.

Bottom line: Pick a switcher, repaint it if needed/desired (to fit with my KC theme), run it.

Anything more, and it can become an exercise in futility that can consume lots of effort, time, and energy, with an insufficient end result to warrant same.

Andre

So the rain let up enough to scamper out to the layout building.

I was able to finish distressing the walls, and also made "joints" in the edges of the shingle roof, as well as nibbled at the the edges of the shingles to give a random look instead of the "perfectly machined" look. Also smoothed any seam lines in the castings that jumped out at me (like the chimney pipe.)

Seeing as it doesn't need glue to assemble, I went ahead and snapped it together to get an idea of how it will look...

SwitchTower1

It was then time to inventory and check my (old) stash of black India Ink and black leather dye via shaking vigorously. Fortunately, my hands cleaned up reasonably well w/acetone, followed by dish detergent and a Scotch Brite pad.

Being decades-old, neither the India Ink or the Fiebing's Black Leather Dye is usable. I will need to replace one or the other before I can mix up a black wash using a black medium and alcohol. Oh well.

Anyway... couldn't resist bringing in the Switch Tower and setting up an impromptu scene and sharing it...

The air compressor on the soot and cinder covered black hulk pants rhythmically as a westbound waits patiently at WB Tower for clearance to continue it's run west. Meanwhile, on the nearby eastbound main, a set of those newfangled diesels rumbles by with a train in tow consisting of almost all produce along with a few cars of salt water delicacies from the gulf states area. Soon, it will enter its home road "Riverfront Yard" and the crew will be done with their shift, and the train will have reached the end of its long journey. 

FAs_2055_WB_Tower

SO, that's it for this post. In the words of Porky Pig... "Th-th-th-that's ALL folks!"

Andre

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  • SwitchTower1
  • FAs_2055_WB_Tower
Last edited by laming

Not much 3-rail is being accomplished today. Other errands/etc. (Oh, but I did get to spend some money! Yup, ordered two smoke unit rebuild kits from Hennings!)

However, here a few days ago I modified the proposed track plan that fits into this computer room on the existing bench work:

KCLinesV2_MedA

The changes are noted in blue. You can still see the faint tracings of the previous alignments.

This paper this old track plan (almost 20 years old?) is on is gettin' a mite tired looking. I ought to just redraw a new one on fresh paper... but not at this time.

Andre

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I ought to try SCARM, I reckon. Time will tell.

My past explorations into CAD resulted in leaving me a bit "meh". It appears I enjoy the tactile nature of designing by using handheld tools: Pencil, ruler, compass, etc. I've designed a bunch of layouts for "fun" intended for possible space on the horizon, and thus designing to see what I could do with it. I've also designed for others, but I didn't really enjoy doing that.

Anyway, past layout plans I have drawn are stacked in the closet, and some reside in a box. Sometimes I'll get them out and look through them. Several have good memories attached to them.

Andre

That's pretty neat, Ted.

Curious: How long did it take for you to get that state it is in SCARM?

Also, gratifying to hear that even a condensed version of my 23' x 23' KC Lines was fun to operate, if only in virtual. That thing was a monster (to me), but I thought it had a lot of potential for "sincere" operation. (I like "sincere" operation of model trains most of the time.) What appealed to me the most is that I would have been able to incorporate many "scenes" of KC railroading as perceived by my (then) childish eyes.

Other Musings...

So, during this lull in purchasing 3-rail trains (I'm awaiting various parts/supplies as well as a manual), I've been giving more thought as to just what engines I would seriously like to have "some day". I've deduced it down to these observations:

* I enjoy the steam engines over the diesels. That so, the roster will very likely be tilted toward steam.

* I sure am enjoying the stance of these cast frame FA's.

* A decision on what to do for a switcher will come along in time.

The above in view, I think I would like to pursue the following as a "big picture" of my motive power:

* Steam: Baldwin 4-6-4's 665, 685; Berk Boiler 4-6-4's, 646, 2046, 2056. Berk 4-8-4 736.  (Already have the Baldwin 2055, 2065 4-6-4's.) Whistle tenders mandatory.  The jury's still out on a 2-6-2 or a 2-6-4 of some type.

* Diesel: Cast frame FA's primarily. Of those the Rock Island 2031 is the only one I'd really like as an "original". The remaining desired FA's would be custom painted/lettered for KC roads from cast frame's that were much less than "excellent" condition. There might be some stamped-frame FA's, but at this point, this is still being debated.

SO, there you have it for my desired engines. I don't intend to ever have walls full of engines w/variations of same, just original stuff I like and pieces not unwilling to custom paint if needed.

Later I may discuss what I'm thinking in terms of cabooses and general thoughts on rolling stock.

All fer now!

Andre

Well, I already had my walls & floor, etc., from other designs I've been working on.  When you posted the first plan, it was intriguing enough from an operations standpoint, and close enough to the size and configuration of my room that I wanted to try and adapt it!  I guess all told maybe 4-6 hours?  Two hours one night to "rough in" the track from your image file, maybe two hours the next night to join the sections with custom fitters, and another hour or more to refine the design, add view blocks and the tunnels through them, etc.

I was going to populate the layout with urban and industrial structures (and I still might.)  But I wanted you to see the potential of what SCARM has to offer.  The real beauty is that you can run trains on it!

I took the liberty of adding a couple of crossovers between the two primary mainlines.  The first time I did what was convenient or seemed intuitive.  However when I actually ran the trains, I found it difficult crossing over to the "engine terminal" in the foreground so I reversed the orientation of the two nearest crossovers and I think it "runs better" this way.

I had one of those "Tinplate Templates," and literally wore holes in the paper making revisions to my designs.  All software has a learning curve, and the initial design might take a bit longer.  Especially if you want to run trains on it, you have to sweat the fit of custom sections and it can be frustrating.  [I think RR-Track might be a little better in this one aspect.]  Once you have the basic design however, it's much, much easier to make "clean" revisions.

For years I used RR-Track and it's ok too (now on version 5.)  What converted me to SCARM is the ability to play-test with up to 3 trains moving at once, and what's in some ways a better 3D rendering.  The mountains can look clunky but there are workarounds.  Playtesting helps you optimize the track layout, but the 3D rendering really helps me visualize how the layout will "fit" in the room: access, reach, where there might need to be a drawbridge, aisle width and other "human factors" kind of stuff.

The layout I'm planning to build will be my first-ever attempt at variable terrain.  I definitely want to get an idea of what it could look like, where the hills and valleys should be, how the roads and buildings might go, etc., before I start carving up a bunch of foam.  People's minds work differently, so someone else might be able to get in there and "just do it."  Personally I would never have the courage to tackle variable terrain without designing it in software first!

Finally n case you're curious about the changes I made, here's an early 2D version of the plan fitted into a ~12 x 18 space.  Enjoy!!

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  • mceclip0
Last edited by Ted S

Hi Rusty!

Thanks for stopping by and checking-in. I wanted to move our conversation over here to my thread so as not to be guilty of causing more drift in the other thread. (I tend to do that, but I'm trying to do better!)

Understood on the long time, no 3-rail... that's not really what I was wanting to hear from you concerning. You see, I feel after all these years of enjoyable interaction with you (since the start of my S scale years and ever since), I've grown to feel you're an "online friend". That so, I was wondering about your plans for your train hobby?

As I recall, you're kind of in "flux" right now with a future relocation, and subsequent change of size requirements for a possible layout. So I'm wondering: How do you plan to proceed with the hobby of model trains, or is enough known yet to even have an inkling as to how you want to proceed?

Andre

Last edited by laming
@laming posted:

Hi Rusty!

Thanks for stopping by and checking-in. I wanted to move our conversation over here to my thread so as not to be guilty of causing more drift in the other thread. (I tend to do that, but I'm trying to do better!)

Understood on the long time, no 3-rail... that's not really what I was wanting to hear from you concerning. You see, I feel after all these years of enjoyable interaction with you (since the start of my S scale years and ever since), I've grown to feel you're an "online friend". That so, I was wondering about your plans for your train hobby?

As I recall, you're kind of in "flux" right now with a future relocation, and subsequent change of size requirements for a possible layout. So I'm wondering: How do you plan to proceed with the hobby of model trains, or is enough known yet to even have an inkling as to how you want to proceed?

Andre

Well Andre, everything is still in flux.  If all goes well, I'll be closing on new digs in about a month.  It's a three hour tour one way from where I am now.

I would have to admit I'm not getting the basement of my dreams, but there are overriding non-hobby advantages to the house I'm buying.

I know there's some basic improvements I'll have to make once I settle in before I can consider returning to active model railroading, but I should be at least able to set up my two old S modules to use as a test track and photo's.  As old man winter settles in I'll be able to consider the new possibilities. 

HO is even a possibility.  I've become attracted to the simpler times of my HO past, but that just may be a festering illusion. This YouTube stirred something deep in my memories.  It certainly flies in the face of the prevailing race for more detail, more tech, more, more, more:

I think it's why I have a real fondness for American Models.  I can also certainly approach something similar in S.  Maybe even in HiRail.  Simplicity has its virtues.

Also on the table is On30.  I've got enough buried deep away to make a stab at it.  Problem is, not only am I a rubber gauger, I also have a wide range of prototype and freelance interests. 

Even if I continue in Scale S, I'm strongly considering moving up the timeline from the 50's to the 70's.

Bewildering, I know.  Until you asked, I really haven't spent much time considering my model railroading future. (Other than packing up all my "nuthin's available in S.)

Rusty

I understand about the "flux" part. Awaiting an imminent move is an odd emotion to experience. Been there, done that.

"I would have to admit I'm not getting the basement of my dreams, but there are overriding non-hobby advantages to the house I'm buying."

There are times that life circumstances needs to be the priority and not model trains. In your case, the "non-hobby" aspects were more important than model trains, so you made the right decision for your situation.

We were in such a situation as well, which is why the sizable 3-rail collection I had was liquidated (along with just about any other toys I could liquidate): We needed the front money for our first home in 20 years. (Housing was often provided in my vocation at the time.) Liquidating trains was the right decision to make in view of life circumstances at the time, so it was the decision that was made. I try to fit trains  into "life" where/how I can.

Rubber gaugin' w/too many interests...

Oh lands me, do I ever understand that, too! You've been in on part of my wanderings!

"HO is even a possibility.  I've become attracted to the simpler times of my HO past, but that just may be a festering illusion. This YouTube stirred something deep in my memories.  It certainly flies in the face of the prevailing race for more detail, more tech, more, more, more <snip> video:"

I know the feel of that tug toward "simpler". Without intending to, I have a very hi-tech fleet of DCC/Sound equipped diesels (and some steam) on my hands. Yes, there can be "glitches" with the electronics, and it's frustrating, but with my HO, I'm afraid I'm spoiled to the point I will need the DCC, the sounds, MU-ing, etc, in order to be satisfied with it. (However, perhaps that would be case with any scale modeling I should pursue in any scale?) I guess the tug of "simpler" is one of the appeals that led to me to acquire some 3-rail stuff again.

S Hi rail...

I think that looks like a very good way to go, provided there's enough track product available (switches) to scratch the itch. I (personally) have no interest in scratch-building or jig-building switches. "Plop n' play" is the name of the game with me and switches!

On30...

I looked at it. Decided my anal-ness about narrow gauge (I've scratch-built Sn3 stuff... remember?) wouldn't be satisfied with it. So, I poop-canned the idea pronto. (Fortunately, I was able to spend a few hundred dollars within it in order to come to that conclusion! Gotta's spend $$ someway in this hobby, don't we??  )

Era shift...

What about your steam engines?

Recap...

Major life changes aren't particularly enjoyable, but oft times necessary. You'll have time to think it through over the coming weeks/months/etc. Hopefully, though, you'll stay within the hobby in some form or another.

All fer now!

Andre

Last edited by laming
@laming posted:

I understand about the "flux" part. Awaiting an imminent move is an odd emotion to experience. Been there, done that.

"I would have to admit I'm not getting the basement of my dreams, but there are overriding non-hobby advantages to the house I'm buying."

There are times that life circumstances needs to be the priority and not model trains. In your case, the "non-hobby" aspects were more important than model trains, so you made the right decision for your situation.

Fortunately, we model railroaders are a creative lot.  We can usually find a way.  My last HO layout was designed to fit over a dresser in my apartment bedroom.  Due to "life happens," I never got to install it and sold it to a hobby shop.  It lived on for quite a few years there.  Moving into my current house, I had the perfect space for a modest HO empire, so naturally, I switched to S.

We were in such a situation as well, which is why the sizable 3-rail collection I had was liquidated (along with just about any other toys I could liquidate): We needed the front money for our first home in 20 years. (Housing was often provided in my vocation at the time.) Liquidating trains was the right decision to make in view of life circumstances at the time, so it was the decision that was made. I try to fit trains  into "life" where/how I can.

Rubber gaugin' w/too many interests...

Oh lands me, do I ever understand that, too! You've been in on part of my wanderings!

There is no cure...  I occasionally regret selling my Postwar Lionel, but there was a need at the time.   I have a modest collection of Postwar Flyer, but the ozone ain't quite the same.

"HO is even a possibility.  I've become attracted to the simpler times of my HO past, but that just may be a festering illusion. This YouTube stirred something deep in my memories.  It certainly flies in the face of the prevailing race for more detail, more tech, more, more, more <snip> video:"

I know the feel of that tug toward "simpler". Without intending to, I have a very hi-tech fleet of DCC/Sound equipped diesels (and some steam) on my hands. Yes, there can be "glitches" with the electronics, and it's frustrating, but with my HO, I'm afraid I'm spoiled to the point I will need the DCC, the sounds, MU-ing, etc, in order to be satisfied with it. (However, perhaps that would be case with any scale modeling I should pursue in any scale?) I guess the tug of "simpler" is one of the appeals that led to me to acquire some 3-rail stuff again.

While I have some of the hi-tech stuff, I never really bought in to the concept 100%.  My conventional stuff still saw the most operation.

S Hi rail...

I think that looks like a very good way to go, provided there's enough track product available (switches) to scratch the itch. I (personally) have no interest in scratch-building or jig-building switches. "Plop n' play" is the name of the game with me and switches!

Over on S Scale Facebook, someone came up with a mod for Fox Valley Hi Rail turnouts so one can run scale and Hi Rail through them.  I'm intrigued, but haven't tried it yet.  I'd actually like to see it in operation.

On30...

I looked at it. Decided my anal-ness about narrow gauge (I've scratch-built Sn3 stuff... remember?) wouldn't be satisfied with it. So, I poop-canned the idea pronto. (Fortunately, I was able to spend a few hundred dollars within it in order to come to that conclusion! Gotta's spend $$ someway in this hobby, don't we??  )

Bought a bunch of Bachmann On30 when it was reasonably priced.  All them forest green boxes sure look nice all stacked up.

Era shift...

What about your steam engines?

The occasional fan trip or photo freight.  Maybe a park engine.

Recap...

Major life changes aren't particularly enjoyable, but oft times necessary. You'll have time to think it through over the coming weeks/months/etc. Hopefully, though, you'll stay within the hobby in some form or another.

Fortunately, this self inflicted transition is going fairly smoothly so far.  I don't feel like I'm making a mistake.  I was mentally prepared for it when the situation arose.  I intend on remaining in the hobby, trains have been a life long interest ever since I was a toddler.

Thanks for askin'!

Rusty

All fer now!

Andre

 

Last edited by Rusty Traque

SMALL UPDATE...

SO, I've spent my allotment for 3-rail this month. (Tough to do, but I've had to push away from the eBay table!)

Over the past 4-5 weeks, I went from essentially no 3-rail, to a complete in-the-box Marx 25225 set, extra track, extra Marx cars, a 2055, a 2065, a set of 2023's, a collection of whistle tenders, a 1033 transformer, a Greenberg repair manual, odds and ends including parts on the way to rebuild the smoke units in the steam engines, and such. That's a pretty good run on 3-rail in a few short weeks. However, that aptly illustrates my need to back away from 3-rail purchases for now, for my next hobby allowance doesn't hit until the first of the month. (I budget my hobby funds.)

SO, my remaining hobby funds need to be prioritized toward completing a vintage "enduro" bike restoration, and I'm getting mighty close to getting it up and running.

Now, this doesn't mean that I won't be in here in my thread chewin' the fat with y'all... but it does mean there wil be no new stuff to display for a spell!

Rusty:

Glad to read that you've got plans, and that model railroading is a part of you that you intended to accommodate in some fashion for as long as you can. That means you'll continue to hang out here at OGR and shoot the bull with us!

Andre

Hi All!

I'm still kickin'!

Seeing as my "riding season" (dual sport and vintage enduro motorcycles) is nearing, for the past couple weeks or more, my energies and funds are being used within my motorcycling interest. Over the past couple or so weeks, I've got two of my vintage enduro bikes up and running, and have begun the process of servicing the modern dual sport bikes for riding season. (One needed tires, both need oil/filter, and maintenance work.)

This should NOT be misconstrued as losing interest in PW and traditional trains. Nope, just means I only have so much time/energy and hobby funds, and must make choices. During riding season, typically my 51+ year love of riding motorcycles will take the available time (and money if needed) and trains get the leftovers. Once the weather is too hot to be comfortable to me for riding (above mid-80s), then my life-long love of trains gets the available time/energy/funds and the bikes get the leftovers.

'Tis what it 'tis... but I still love talking trains, regardless of whether it's my bike season or train season!

All fer now.

Andre

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