The wisdom of TWO Daylights?

 

IMO sam legacy sound has more than a slight edge over ps2 or 3. Mth's prior attempts at a quilling whistle were not great. IMO Mth's whistles sound more "digitized" and less realistic.Nothing against MTH either they make a fine product,just a comparison. I myself always end up getting "reeled in" by Lionels sound.

 

 

 MTH premier J

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lionel did the GS4 daylight as one of the first legacy  offerings

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike did give mth operators what they wanted a reissued daylight with upgraded dcs 3.0! Albeit without the quillable whistle but thats about it. For a price that is comparable to other mth high end steamers! That is why I,a lionel legacy supporter and user are just down right mad! As I have said in my other post why is legacy deemed so much more than dcs asking price wise by the brass at lionel for god sakes it is just lionels albeit "new standard operating system" but come on!! Thats all it is is an operating system! Better than dcs IMO yes, but $200 better than dcs ****NO!!!!!! So can lionel charge what they want for it yes, but I dont agree I should have to pay $200 in additional cost for what should be standard. Mth continues to upgrade dcs.proto 1, Dcs 2.0 then dcs 3.0 ect. ect. It even puts it in the entire line across the board. Starter set to premium engine. All with out rasing prices all that much from the last 2.0 or whatever it is at the time . Lionel rather takes thier outdated tmcc and horrible oddesy 1 years later and does thier upgrade to compete with dcs and calls it legacy with improved oddsey 2 and hits a home run IMHO,but now it feels with this latest operating system which does run the trains slower and better. Plus easer to use features with new remote.No scrolling through menus like dcs to get to the desired special sounds or features. Now They feel I guess they can compete with dcs Finally. Then the top brass says lets put a price point on this and charge more than tmcc and dcs.we will Tell the operator you are getting the world class in trains. Come on we have the name LIONEL. Only the prestigious train officianoto run lionel. you are getting the only the rolls royce of trains. who could put a price tag on that! I guess only time and sales with tell if they are right. For what it is worth I still will try to save my money to get one after the price drops but only then! Sorry sam If I highjacked your thread it was not my intention to do so I Just had to get the big L disappointment off my chest ! Bet the mth versions out sell the lionels at the msrp asking price what do you think?

Legacy sounds i find miles ahead of ps3, i hear no difference in sound in ps3 compared with ps2.

Although I like both MTH and Lionel the sounds in Lionel's legacy is superior to ps2 or 3. All else being equal legacy is the best buy for now.  The street price for both will be closer Then stated above. 

My recent experience agrees with that: Legacy sound is just better than PS2 or PS3 (which sound the same to me, too).   That said, the Legacy is generally more expensive by about $200 but I'll pay it grudgingly.

 

For example, I ordered the Lionel GS-2 rather than the MTH GS-4.  Both are probably fine locos, but the $200 difference is probably worth it for the better sound. 

Lionelzwl2012    That's OK my friend - I didn't want to hijack your thread is why I started this one!

 

Our only two MTH steamers now are the handsome Southern PS4 and a RK Ten-Wheeler. The whistle on the PS4 is strong and authoritative and the rest of the sound set is fine. The ten-wheeler is newer but the whistle is anemic and the chuffs are very similar to the PS4.

I have become very fond of our Legacy steamers (MR S3, PRR K4, and a UP Mikado) mainly because there is variety and each has a distinctive sound.

 

Like you, I plan to buy my steamers on the secondary market 'used' as our budget won't allow a $1000+ locomotive. I'm saving my shekels now for a 'previously owned' Legacy Berkshire at a good price however.

 

My original question is, with two fine examples of similar locomotives to choose from, both manufacturers are going to come up short with sales. Are they aware of each other's new products? Surely there are leaks and spies within the inner circles?

 

By one manufacturer delaying their Daylight for a year or less, it would generate more total sales as many of the first buyers would surely want 'the latest n greatest'!

 

Anyone want to offer their Legacy Daylight soon?

Don't forget - before SP dieselized all the engineers used the air horn.  It was ugly - blaaaat!  As I understand it, they had a choice, but I never heard a whistle come out of one of these.

 

Boy, would I love to tackle one of these for 2-rail. They look great!

From Andy's remarks last night at the DCS users meeting I concluded that they were surprised by Lionel announcing theirs. Joked that someone at MTH must have spilled the beans. Lionel did something similar with the PRR S1 and shipped first. 

They were trying to beat the Daylights out of the competition?

Groan!

I used to be annoyed when both companies came out with the same models, but now I see it differently.  There are some customers who will never buy a Lionel engine no matter how nice, and there are those who will never buy MTH.  So this way people who want a specific locomotive but only want a particular company can get what they want.

 

Stuart

I have the Lionel Daylight #4436.  I really like it.  I have both DCS and Legacy.  I've seen the MTH Daylight and it's good.  I really wish I could afford the new Sunset/3rd Rail Daylight...but that's not gonna happen.  I really like the Lionel Daylight.  It is highly detailed and runs great!  Here's a couple of pics of my Daylight rolling into the station in the town of Beawslaiw (the town on my layout), circa 1950.  Matt

Ho ho. That was MTH's old trick.

These days, with MTH and Lionel using such different control systems, there may not be as much conflict as some might think. Many Legacy operators, for example, may not be that interested in MTH PS-3 engines, and vice-versa. More and more, many of the features of one system are not fully accessible - or accessible at all - to the other. It's considerably more complicated - and much more expensive - to set up to run both systems at the same time, and only a relatively small minority of operators do that, I suspect.

I have thought about it a few days and have decided to buy offerings from both Lionel and MTH. I use Legacy and DCS so system isn't a consideration. I'm a complete nut for big steam,especially SP, so I've ordered the three Lionel SP GS-2's and the MTH Black GS2 4444. I got a darn good price on these! IF MTH had offered the GS4 in something other than 4449 (I have the 3rd rail "Definitive GS4 model" of the #4449) I would buy it.

 

I don't have the Lionel Legacy GS4 #4436,I've been on the hunt. for that one!

 

I hope Lionel will rerun the AC-12 with Legacy and new cab numbers.

Hi guys, I'm in the market for pre-ordering one of these Daylights but I can't seem to make my final decision on which to buy Legacy or DCS??

 

What i really like about MTH steamers is the fact that (prototypical or not) the steam/smoke pours out when sitting idle where is Lionel engines seem to only smoke when train is moving. Does anyone know if the the new Lionel Daylight will smoke/steam at idle just like the MTH engines?? That might make my decision on which one to buy.

 

I don't want to make this a bashing post but I am getting tired of the same tower voices on the legacy system...not sure if anyone else knows what I am talking about but for one the voice is sped up and I am tired of them saying "over" "copy that" etc etc. I honestly would pay extra for some realistic sloppy chatter like I found on one of my MTH Diesel engines which is my most favorite engine as far as the dialog goes. Does anyone else agree with me?

 

I want to put my pre-order in soon so any advice between the 2 would be greatly appreciated.

 

I only own one MTH Proto 2.0 small switcher steamer and I really love the way it looks smokes and even sounds. I also only have one Lionel steamer (Legacy Big Boy) which looks fantastic but man out of the box I had that thing go back at least 4 or 5 times. I know they all have there problems. I am not really a fan of the chatter on the big boy but everything else looks and works great except IMO I prefer the smoke pouring out at idle rather then it heating up and sitting down the stack until train starts to move.

I ordered a Legacy GS2 and won't order one from MTH.  I run only conventional so either is as good an option for me - they are both good models but Legacy generally has better sound, if a higher price, but given I will have only one . . . .  

I now have six "Daylights" in O-Scale, all GS-4 class (one Sunset/3rd Rail, one Lionel, and four MTH). Plus two GS-4 class models in HO, for my HO display case.

 

I really don't see the problem with having "too many Daylights"!

A couple of visual things to take into consideration, at least where the scale GS4 is concerned between both MTH and Lionel:

 

Biggest discrepancy:  Lionel's main connecting rod on the GS4 is incorrect (they just recycled the main rods from their earlier GS2).  MTH's model depicts the correct heavier-duty connecting rods.  The way to easily tell is the Lionel connecting rods are narrow and straight, the MTH one has a taper to it where it goes from narrow from the piston and widens out where it connects to the driver wheels.

 

Lionel's has the air hoses on the pilot, the MTH one omits this detail.

 

Lionel's handrails on the smokebox front is straight on the bottom below the headlights (correct), on MTH it's a continuous curve under the headlights (incorrect).

 

As for Legacy Railsounds/PS2-PS3 sounds:  From my own persepective, visual prototypical accuracy and solid operating characteristics of scale models of locomotives are far more important; sound fidelity is a far distant second.

 

For me, the MTH model was the preference since it was easy enough to add the air hose detail on the pilot and fix the smokebox front handrail than try to replace the main siderods on the Lionel model.

Really, does it really matter which has the better sound legacy or dcs? How many of us really know the differences or remember the sound of the real steamers. That real sound is different from the manufactured one no matter how well you recorded it. The motion , environment etc all affected the sound from place to place. And yes I still remember the real sounds from my childhood and no toy model can compare. Put 2, 3 , 4 or more engines running on a layout and what will you hear. Probably a whole lot of too much noise and you end up lowering the sound or shutting it off. Just like with the smoke units. In todays economy, it's probably price that makes the real difference unless you have money to burn. So lets just enjoy the trains.

You may just want to rethink this. There are hundreds of thousands of folks, maybe some are even model railroaders, that have seen AND heard SP 4449, NKP 765, UP844, UP 3985, AT&SF 3751, MIL 261, etc., etc., etc., in action. Especially since they operate almost every year! Then there are all those videos/DVDs and Youtube action scenes out there.

 

I'm sure that a LOT more of us know the difference when Lionel, MTH, Weaver, Sunset/3rd Rail, and Atlas do indeed get the sounds right, than you think.

In addition to live excursions and dvds, I enjoy listening to steam train recordings on cd as well, such as the Semaphore Records CDs and the O. Winston Link cd box set.

 

Interstingly, to my ear at least, the dry flat MTH whistle on the ps2 k4s is pretty much spot on, but I still prefer the sounds of the legacy k4.

Love an air horn steamer; my Lionel Niagara always goes BLAT, as does my SP AC-9.

Exactly!

Thanks everyone for the tips especially John - Thanks!! As for me sound is not so important it's detail and how it runs. I gather the Lionel will have a little more detail over MTH but what's going to drive me to MTH is the smoke at idle and convenience and better feel when holding a MTH DCS remote over the big legacy remote Both systems have there pros and cons.

Matt says: 

I don't want to make this a bashing post but I am getting tired of the same tower voices on the legacy system...not sure if anyone else knows what I am talking about but for one the voice is sped up and I am tired of them saying "over" "copy that" etc etc. I honestly would pay extra for some realistic sloppy chatter like I found on one of my MTH Diesel engines which is my most favorite engine as far as the dialog goes. Does anyone else agree with me?

 

 

Yes Matt, I agree completely about the repetitious crew talk. Same voice as engineer in several Legacy steamers and all with the same  thick accent. OK maybe for NYC but not in our Union Pacific Mikado!

What gives Lionel?????

ERR cruise is every bit as smooth as either Legacy or DCS. One might be able run a 1/2 MPH slower than the other but its pretty close. The difference is in the sound sets. The latest 3rd Rail engines have excellent sound fidelity and volume but lack the variety of sounds that Legacy and PS2 have.

 

The Lionel GS2 has caught my attention. I already have a GS-4. The problem now is lack of passenger cars. MTH is to be applauded for offering cars in both early and late lettering but they really aren't that accurate to the prototype. Maybe by the time they are released they will get them closer, at least loose the name placards and place the lettering directly on the car sides.

With the release of 3rd Rails GS4s last year this would be a great opportunity for them to release some more scale passenger cars in both early and later lettering. I've already started to lobby Scott. Anyone else interested in a set of these cars should contact him with your interests.

 

Pete

 It's considerably more complicated - and much more expensive - to set up to run both systems at the same time, and only a relatively small minority of operators do that, I suspect.

hello Norton and guys..........

 

Ok, so what are the pro's and cons of the ERR cruise and are they better than the proto-sounds 2.0 ?  One thing i like about the proto-sounds 2.0 is the remote control commander set #50-1033 as it is very helpful because i have bad feet and its hard for me to get up from sitting on the floor running the carpet layout.   I wish that the Sunset 3rd engine can be run with the remote control that can put in hand to operate it.  Maybe put in the proto-sounds 2.0 in and take out the ERR ?   What are your thoughts ?

 

the woman who loves the S.F.#5021

Tiffany

You wanna take out the ERR from your 3rd Rail engine and put a PS 2.0 system in it???

 

Now that's just crazy talk right there!

 

I have the TMCC GS-2 and the DAP MTH GS-4 BNSF Nightlight with PS 2.0. I recently got the 3rd Rail GS-4 and have to say the sounds in the PS 2.0 just DO NOT even compare to the Lionel GS-2 or the 3rd Rail GS-4, even though neither are Legacy sound. I was going to buy the Legacy GS4 just for the sound system..... until I got the 3rd Rail engine. If I was going to spend the money on another GS-4, I'd get the 3Rd Rail Freedom Train engine.

I'll add my vote to the cause of both Lionel and MTH using a variety of voices for their crew talk components and . . . when it comes to modern diesel locomotives . . . to even use a female voice in the engineer's seat to broaden the appeal of our hobby.  I agree, Lionel should try something other than "Copy that" and "Over".  DISPATCHER:  Challenger 3711, you are clear for the main.  ENGINEER (Taylor):  We're ready to roll, dispatcher Smith!

ERR is controlled with a Cab1 or Cab2. Its a TMCC engine with its own version of cruise.

Since DCS can mimic many of the functions of a Cab1 you might not even have to buy another controller.

 

Pete

 

You have my vote here as well.  Lionel has completely dropped the ball on this, and it's clear the whole crew-talk / towercom feature is heading in the WRONG direction.

 

For whatever reason(s) about which we're not 100% privy to inside information, LOTS of production short-cuts are being taken these days:  same worn-and-tired, generic crewtalk dialogue used on DOZENS of locomotives; whistle-steam appears to be history; StationSounds diners are MIA or being canceled outright; QA issues with select rolling stock (i.e., Ice Cold Express reefers); etc...  The list goes on. 

 

It's quite possible we're simply entering a period where the richer feature-sets we've come to know and love from 2005-2010 are history, and the next several years we'll see stuff trickling out of China using off-the-shelf tooling to keep production logistics as simple as possible.  Doesn't appear we're heading into an era of intense innovation -- that's for sure.  And complaining about it here won't change anything.

 

David

"I hope Lionel will rerun the AC-12 with Legacy and new cab numbers." This was from Boomer.

Well, maybe not the AC-12, but the AC-4 Lionel advertised a few years ago but never produced. MTH has run its AC-6 twice, last time in 2008 with PS2. It is my only DCS engine. I have a first run MTH PS1 AC-6 which has been converted to Lionel TMCC RS4.

My Lionel AC-12 has been modified with the TAS system, so exhaust sounds are more realistic.

I remember SP's steam whistles - heard them on the Peninsula commute line while riding trains pulled by 4-6-2s and 4-8-2s. When I sometimes rode the Daylight between San Jose and 3rd & Townsend I mostly heard the single air horn, except when the 1984 World's Fair Daylight ripped through the Peninsula towns at 65mph+ and Doyle just opened up on the steam whistle. SP's 5 chime passenger engine whistles were really great to hear (#2472 at Niles Canyon now). I also remember the cab forward steam whistles, 3 chime as I recall, but not used all that much after 1946 because they were so far back on the engine near the stack. It would be nice to be able to modify Railsounds to obtain correct whistles, and for that matter, to hear unmuffled cross compound air pumps.

Aw, I'm getting all choked up recalling all this.

mtnhi7 Brings up some excellent points about whistles and horn sounds on Southern Pacific steam locomotives.

 

1) In general, ONLY the GS Class 4-8-4 passenger locomotives, NOT including the former Cotton Belt 4-8-4s, had the deep "steamboat" Hancock step-top whistles.

 

2) The whistles on the GS Class steam locomotives where air operated and NOT "playable" by the Engineer. The Engineer only had a small brass lever, which was pushed DOWN in order to blow the steam whistle.

 

3) Those SP steam locomotives equipped with the big Leslie Typhon air horn, also had a small brass lever for the Engineer's use when blowing the horn. Since the air horns were mounted way up front, and pointed directly forward, the sound carried much further forward than that of the steam whistle, which was mounted just forward of the cab in the skyline casing. Thus the Engineers pretty much ONLY used the air horns for grade crossing warnings, whistle the steam whistle was used for crew signals, i.e. calling out or calling in the Flagman, for example.

 

4) The air compressor direct exhaust of the spent steam, is one of the MOST characteristic sounds of ANY of the SP cab-forward class locomotives. Luckily, both Lionel and MTH seem to have gotten THAT pretty close in their respective sound packages.

Between Lionel and MTH, MTH's compressor sounds on the Cab Forwards are the most accurate.  On the prototype, the compressors were always active and could be heard while the locomotive was underway as well as at idle.  On Lionel's model, they only have the sounds active at idle.  MTH's has it both ways.

Anyone find a really good pre-order price for the MTH daylight?

Matt, why aren't you out catching crooks? Don