Other Than The Much Larger Legacy Remote, Has Lionel Replaced The CAB1-L Remote?

The best answer I can give as for what Lionel will do will have to wait until we get all the details from the Friday catalog release.

for the current line up I truly love the Cab-2. It does look very big/bulky and complicated. I wouldn’t mind if it was able to be made a little thinner but it’s not too bad. It does take some time and use to get use to it and how it feels but once your there I can use it one handed for most operations without even looking at it. We have Neil Young to thanks for the very interesting and thought out design.

As for the Cab-1L I never used one until recently and I think your right it’s a great remote. Everything is in the same spot from the old Cab-1 a lot of people have and don’t want to let go of. It’s cheeper and a little easier on little fingers. Honestly I can’t see it going anywhere any time soon, Lionel developed it after the backlash from customers after fully discontinuing the original Cab-1.

that’s my thoughts

FWIW, I love the Cab1L and will never trade up to the Cab2. As a small 2-train operator, the Cab 1L (s) are perfect for my operation, light weight, and easy to use around the layout. My visitors like watching the trains more than trying to figure out a complex remote. They're also easy to store and have never failed me.

Cab 1 is very nice and easy to learn. Once I got a Cab 2, it took some time to get used to its operations.

Well the Cab1L came after Legacy to satisfy those who thought the Cab2 was too complicated.  It  is more of a replacement for the Cab1.  So it's actually newer than the Cab2s. 

Thanks to each of you!  

I don't mind the complexity of the Cab-2 Legacy controller.  It's the size that's the problem.  Additionally, I haven't had a lot of success for the past few days finding a Cab-1L for sale.  

My now grown, "train buddy" son, was over with his boys on Sunday, and wanted to operate two trains with separate controllers for each train.  He inquired if I had another Cab- 1L, which, I didn't.  In this regard, I  could have switched to two Lion Chief+  locomotives, which would have used two, separate controllers for the two separate operators.  However,  we were operating some of the earlier TMCC locos from his childhood, including the Daylight GS-4, and the N & W streamlined loco.

As to Cab-1L availability,  the Lionel site appears to show a "Pre-Order" status.  Perhaps there is a new Cab 1-L on the way.

I haven't had much luck locating a dealer with a Cab-1L.  

I've been told the CAb1L is staying, but we'll know for sure Friday.

Unfortunately, if the big L does away with the CAB1L I will have to go back to conventional or only run Lionchief. The CAB1L is the only way for someone who is visually impaired to run Legacy/TMCC. Sadly, the iPhone app is also inaccessible.

I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future.  Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller.  The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech.  I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come.  The production runs on these items go in cycles.  The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.

If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages.  Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do.  We'll all know more in a day or so.

@MartyE posted:

I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future.  Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller.  The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech.  I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come.  The production runs on these items go in cycles.  The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.

If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages.  Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do.  We'll all know more in a day or so.

Thanks Marty!  Good information, as with the other thoughtful comments in this thread. I hope there is a new announcement about the Cab 1-L or its progeny.

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

Unfortunately, if the big L does away with the CAB1L I will have to go back to conventional or only run Lionchief. The CAB1L is the only way for someone who is visually impaired to run Legacy/TMCC. Sadly, the iPhone app is also inaccessible.

I think the CAB -1L remote will remain in production. Lionel will still have a hand held remote.

@MartyE posted:

If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages.  Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do.  We'll all know more in a day or so.

If they invest in a good app developer.  Seems MTH created the DCS APP and then never improved it. Certainly didn't fix all the flaws.  Now we are all stuck with what it is.  Lionel seems to do things on the cheap these days, whether it's QC issues, couplers/trucks, or what have you.  I can see the complaints in my head when this gets released, and bugs galore pop up.

Is Lionel going to use beta testers for this???  Lets hope so.

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

Thanks to each of you!  

I don't mind the complexity of the Cab-2 Legacy controller.  It's the size that's the problem.  Additionally, I haven't had a lot of success for the past few days finding a Cab-1L for sale.  

My now grown, "train buddy" son, was over with his boys on Sunday, and wanted to operate two trains with separate controllers for each train.  He inquired if I had another Cab- 1L, which, I didn't.  In this regard, I  could have switched to two Lion Chief+  locomotives, which would have used two, separate controllers for the two separate operators.  However,  we were operating some of the earlier TMCC locos from his childhood, including the Daylight GS-4, and the N & W streamlined loco.

As to Cab-1L availability,  the Lionel site appears to show a "Pre-Order" status.  Perhaps there is a new Cab 1-L on the way.

I haven't had much luck locating a dealer with a Cab-1L.  

I have my CAB-1L on order direct from the Lionel Store. It still shows as a valid order.

I bought mine from Mario.  It was cheaper and faster!

Jon

@MartyE posted:

I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future.  Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller.  The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech.  I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come.  The production runs on these items go in cycles.  The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.

If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages.  Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do.  We'll all know more in a day or so.

I concur 1000%. I figured covid shortages accelerated the demise of CAB2. But I think the CAB1L is a worthy stand in. It's simple and effective in my opinion.

I didn't realize how old the Legacy system was. I was out of model railroading from 2000 to 2017 and I never had a TMCC locomotive as a kid. So when I saw Legacy in 2017, I thought it was new and super advanced

@superwarp1 posted:

If they invest in a good app developer.  Seems MTH created the DCS APP and then never improved it. Certainly didn't fix all the flaws.  Now we are all stuck with what it is.  Lionel seems to do things on the cheap these days, whether it's QC issues, couplers/trucks, or what have you.  I can see the complaints in my head when this gets released, and bugs galore pop up.

Is Lionel going to use beta testers for this???  Lets hope so.

Gary

I agree.  The App development has to be in the fore front and continuous if this is the route taken.  You can bring out a new base but if the App doesn't perform you'll be getting nothing but grief.  I'm confident that the Lionel team knows this.  I'll reserve judgement until we hear more.  I'm 100% sure there will be some "bugs" to work out.  How they get addressed will be important.  If the hardware remote, specifically Cab2 is endangered then, I really don't think they had a choice other than to steer towards an App base control with how fast tech changes.  By the time they are done designing and producing a new hardware remote, it could be obsolete.

Tomorrow will answer a lot of questions.

@BillYo414 posted:

I concur 1000%. I figured covid shortages accelerated the demise of CAB2. But I think the CAB1L is a worthy stand in. It's simple and effective in my opinion.

I didn't realize how old the Legacy system was. I was out of model railroading from 2000 to 2017 and I never had a TMCC locomotive as a kid. So when I saw Legacy in 2017, I thought it was new and super advanced

I think we started the Legacy Users Group in the fall of 2008 or Spring of 2009 about a year after Legacy actually hit the shelves.

Incidentally credit for the origin of the group belongs to Elliot Scher.  He first suggested it and then I believe Will Allen took the next step in arranging a meeting.  He asked if I would help.  Chris Bojanower then joined in.  The rest is history.  So if we go by that timing Legacy is easily 16 years old, maybe even 17 in development.

@MartyE posted:

So if we go by that timing Legacy is easily 16 years old, maybe even 17 in development.

I'm not often behind the times, but when I am, I make sure it's by a decade or more haha

The Cab-1L is in production. By time it gets on the boat and gets over here, it'll likely be April.

@Dave Olson posted:

The Cab-1L is in production. By time it gets on the boat and gets over here, it'll likely be April.

I'm fine with that. At least I know I will get one with the latest features and software. I also like ordering directly from Lionel. That way I get it fast.

FWIW, my Cab2 is from the original batch and it's never gone back to Lionel.  I take good care of it and probably hasn't seen some of the use that others have but still that's a good run.  I intend to use it until it dies and Lionel no longer offers to repair them.  It's a solid controller.

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

I hope there is a new announcement about the Cab 1-L or its progeny.

Lionel's official written announcement to dealers about the Base3 and Cab3 App states that "637155 Legacy Cab-1L - Remote Control will still be an active item."

So, it's clear that the Cab-1L will still be offered. No need to hem and haw about that.

Also, since the product number is not changing, it's not certain, but it seems likely, that no changes are being made to the Cab-1L at this time.

@MartyE posted:

By the time they are done designing and producing a new hardware remote, it could be obsolete.

Until recently the tech used to support a given market didn't usually drive the market.  In fact, except for ground-breaking introductions, it's largely been the opposite for most of tech history, i.e. the market drives the use of a particular tech.  Smartphones have changed this.  They've enabled the creation of many, many new markets, and in the tidal wave that has come from that result they now seem to be driving most existing ones as well, like ours.

Because of this reversal consumers in existing and traditional markets frequently don't find the new tech to be a "gotta have" but more like a "nice to have", or an "I'm indifferent to it", or in extreme cases, as we seem to have here, a surprising number of "over my dead body".

There are two reasons for something to go obsolete:

  1.) It's features are no longer wanted (which rarely occurs)

         or

  2.) Parts to build it can no longer be found (which seems to be happening often lately)

If Lionel introduces a new feature set with a dedicated handheld remote as part of it, it can't get obsolete by the time they're done designing and producing it, as long as customers want the features (Case No. 1).

It could only go obsolete from a poor choice of components, resulting in the inability to build it for any appreciable length of time after it's introduced (Case No. 2).  This lines up with your comment @MartyE.

Let's hope, whatever is introduced in the near future doesn't suffer from case no. 2.  All (most?) of us already have case no. 1 covered.

Mike

One thing for sure, it took a really long time for the concept of running our trains via a walk around hand held remote Cab 1 TMCC, habits are so hard to break, we get accustom to running our trains with the good old “ZW” and deviating from that concept is tough. Lou Kovach developed products that also worked in conjunction with the TMCC command system allowing more opportunities to remotely control our layouts by operating our accessories, track blocks, flipping switches, and the very best part, two or more can join in the Fun. So by 2004 there were many folks finally  figuring out, that by adding that 1 wire to our outside rail a new Day had dawned in the wonderful way a Command Controlled Layout and this fantastic feature allowed for more precise scale speed control of our beautiful scale looking trains. Oh, the very finest feature is two or more trains could run on the very same track and Yes, be controlled individually. That is Awesome. Sometimes We, model train enthusiasts get fixed in our minds that this system is to hard to Learn, learning is Great for the mind, it keeps us ticking. The Cab 1 system was inexpensive, $169, the hand held remote had a nice antenna, but. It was easily broken and if one wasn’t careful it would short out the track. A No No. However, it was easy to learn and use.

A great Enhancement became available in 2006/2007, A truly awesome upgrade, one that is to this day upgradable called Cab 2, with a digital screen that’s easily viewed and extraordinary in assisting us in controlling our trains and other features of our layouts. It’s the easiest system to use and Lionel still repairs it at No Charge when needed. So although it’s 16 plus years old, it’s new upgrades  makes it up to date. Wow, how awesome is that. (Cab 1 goes away)
Cab 1L was developed to lower the cost of getting into Cab 2 command for those that didn’t want to spend $400 for the advanced system, however, it does operate the TMCC locomotives/diesels and accessories. It doesn’t work all of the real Legacy features. Lionel did remove the antenna and it’s a great size hand held remote.
Now, we are in 2022 (many of us have been in this Fun Hobby for over 65 Years) and with the IPhone/IPad Blue Tooth - WiFi technology, we will be seeing a Cab 3 introduction as this will be the new kid in town. Younger folks do things differently and for this hobby to grow, We need to learn these new tricks to keep enjoying our trains, and therefore my thoughts are to be Open Minded, and embrace the fact, change is constant and in the end, change is good.
Our TMCC/Legacy system is the most fun way to operate our trains, Lionel is trying to please everyone, young and old alike, so this being said, I’m excited about seeing the new 2022 Lionel Signature dream catalog coming our way Soon.

I appreciate MartyE being there for us with answers to hi tech Questions, he is always very helpful. If there are Questions about the new systems I’m sure there will be folks at York in April to answer our Questions. Also, the TCA, LCCA, National Conventions will be in Nashville Tennessee this year, so there will be lots of knowledge and fun to be had this year, 2022 will be a great time in our Hobby. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry posted:

Signature dream catalog coming our way Soon.

I appreciate MartyE being there for us with answers to hi tech Questions, he is always very helpful. If there are Questions about the new systems I’m sure there will be folks at York in April to answer our Questions. Also, the TCA, LCCA, National Conventions will be in Nashville Tennessee this year, so there will be lots of knowledge and fun to be had this year, 2022 will be a great time in our Hobby. Happy Railroading Everyone

Thanks for the compliment.  I'll be eagerly waiting to see what they have coming up.  It's a great time to be in the hobby and since the advent of TMCC, Legacy, and DCS, I've been having a blast!  I believe that trend will continue with whatever comes next.

The reason for going to Apps versus the controller is pretty easy, it is a lot cheaper to support an App on a phone or tablet or computer. If there is an issue with the app, it can be updated (patch) pretty easily, user downloads a fixed version. Yeah, there is testing to make sure it works on various devices (IOS, Android, PCs, phone vs tablet), but these days with automation that actually isn't that big a deal. You want to add a new feature, it is pretty easy to add it to the app.

A physical controller has a lot of disadvantages:

1)Can break physically, buttons break, circuit board breaks, etc.

2)It is manufactured, so you need to have the unit made, you need to have tooling, and of course these days the shipping/supply chain.

3)If there is a problem with the unit, if it is a software issue the firmware in the unit may or may not be able to be upgraded (why they wouldn't have it all upgradeable, I don't know). If it is non programmable firmware involved, has to be swapped out.

If it is hardware, then there is the fun of parts, if a button goes, if a display screen goes, it is a pain to fix it (yeah, a phone or tablet can break, too, but then again, those are mass produced items that can be fixed or replaced easily. If your tablet breaks, you can use a phone until it gets repaired or likely replaced).

4)You have to have a repair service, at least for warrantee work,or have extras on hand to replace broken ones.

That doesn't mean I think there shouldn't be controllers (not so sure how much I'll like using an app), but why they are doing what they are as makers.

I am not interested in using an app for train control.  Apps are subject to issues when Apple puts out new iOS versions and Google puts out a new Android version.  Too many times I see bugs in apps because of the OS its running on.  It will be a lot of maintenance on Lionel's part to keep the app functioning correctly as Apple and Google keep updating their OSes.  And what about users that don't have a current smart phone?  I am not in the camp to buy a new phone every year.  I just upgraded my phone after over 5 years with my previous model.  A physical controller is much easier to use without the possible OS issues.  I understand Lionel's decision if that is what they have done.  They can adjust software much more quickly than build a new physical controller.    Another issue is response time.  An app will not respond as fast as the physical controller will.  You will have to press buttons to increase speed or use a slider control.  I have tried Lionel's blue tooth app and I do not like its response as compared to the controller.  I'll stick with my Cab2 until it dies before I move to an app.

@Joe Fermani posted:

I am not interested in using an app for train control.  Apps are subject to issues when Apple puts out new iOS versions and Google puts out a new Android version.  Too many times I see bugs in apps because of the OS its running on.  It will be a lot of maintenance on Lionel's part to keep the app functioning correctly as Apple and Google keep updating their OSes.  And what about users that don't have a current smart phone?  I am not in the camp to buy a new phone every year.  I just upgraded my phone after over 5 years with my previous model.  A physical controller is much easier to use without the possible OS issues.  I understand Lionel's decision if that is what they have done.  They can adjust software much more quickly than build a new physical controller.    Another issue is response time.  An app will not respond as fast as the physical controller will.  You will have to press buttons to increase speed or use a slider control.  I have tried Lionel's blue tooth app and I do not like its response as compared to the controller.  I'll stick with my Cab2 until it dies before I move to an app.

Fortunately, Lionel has not totally abandoned the handheld controller. The CAB-1L is still in production and should be here in April, as per Lionel.

To the OP's comment about using with young children:

If your Legacy locos are more recent and have Bluetooth capability you can operate them with a Universal remote.  You will have a limited set of features but kids don't usually care about those in my experience.

-Greg

@KOOLjock1 posted:

I bought mine from Mario.  It was cheaper and faster!

Jon

Jon,

A good strategy for a past purchase, most unfortunately.  I actually phoned Mario's last Monday, and just ended a call with the polite person at Mario's who answered today (Thursday).  Unfortunately, Mario's doesn't have any in stock.  

I actually phoned Mario's, and, did quite a bit of searching before posting this thread -- the actual impetus for the thread!

As you strongly suggest, Mario's is great!

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

  ...It could only go obsolete from a poor choice of components, resulting in the inability to build it for any appreciable length of time after it's introduced (Case No. 2)...Mike

Quite frankly,  even the original Cab 1 Remote would work fine to let many visitors run the layout.  I still have some gorgeous, original Railsounds ™ locos. The original Railsounds ™ whistles and the horns are just fine  -- even over the din of the trains and the rotary beacons on my toy train layout -- and, kids can easily use the remotes, love the flashing lights...and probably the noise too!  

OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?

Funny thing. I thought the original cab1 was discontinued because it was obsolete?

People complained and the cab1 reappeared with Legacy.

Whistle steam had also stopped for a few loco runs. People complained, it's now in every loco it can fit in.

Let's start complaining (lol!) and maybe we'll see a new cab2 in a few years.

On a side note. I would love to see a time-saver type switching challenge cab2 vs the app on a device.

I like watching my trains when I run them. I get enough screen time the rest of the day...app shmapp.😉

As an analog/conventional operator, i.e., mostly pre and early post-war, I've been able to get by with a CAB 1, 180 watt Powerhouses and dedicated Powermasters for quite a while.  Even though upgrading to a CAB 1L would require the addition of a Command Base, it still seems a better fit for my needs... and a lot less confusing than figuring out the CAB 2.   

@Gerald Marafioti posted:

OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?

Well, another option would be to get a Cab-1L remote, which accesses the most-used Legacy functions and which will continue to be available.

A bit earlier in this thread, Dave Olson, Lionel's Director of Engineering, said that the next production run of the Cab-1L should arrive in April.

@Gerald Marafioti posted:

OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?

Very valid point. I have no desire to run trains with a phone or a tablet. I guess they think everybody has these devices. I finally broke down and got a smart phone. It sits on a shelf 99% of the time as it's hard to figure out.

Cab3

speculation?

@Madockawando posted:

I'm fine with that. At least I know I will get one with the latest features and software. I also like ordering directly from Lionel. That way I get it fast.

Have there ever been changes to the Cab-1L? Thought they were all the same.

As mentioned above, I recently (within a month) replaced my 20+ year old CAB-1 with the CAB-1L.  I've used the CAB-2 extensively at shows, and the benefits of the extra buttons don't outweigh the clunkyness of the unit to me.  The CAB-1L however is the correct number of features in the right size for me. 

Very pleased so far.

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

As mentioned above, I recently (within a month) replaced my 20+ year old CAB-1 with the CAB-1L.  I've used the CAB-2 extensively at shows, and the benefits of the extra buttons don't outweigh the clunkyness of the unit to me.  The CAB-1L however is the correct number of features in the right size for me.

Very pleased so far.

Jon

I love the fact no telescope antenna to extend and worry about breaking.   I have the CAB-1L for guest and when I'm working on engines on the bench.  Glad it's staying.