This is the part I don't like about repairing trains. UPDATED 8/11, Final chapter 8/12

 Thats a joke.The last time I saw a motor like that it was in a battery operated toy.

Even if replacements were available. They would just burn up again anyway.

That's what pushes newcomers away from O and over to HO.  HO can't even get away with incorrect truck side frames (they'll provide free accurate replacements).

I can’t believe they put those junk motors in that unit...

Is that not something that Lionel would make good on?

Hard to imagine there is not a generic motor that would work. 

That's a depressing story.

Vicious circle.  They have to make the low end stuff inexpensive, so folks will buy it.  You cannot make inexpensive trains with expensive components.  You want good motors, graduate to $300 locomotives.  Even then, most of the 3-rail Diesels I have seen use Chinese windshield wiper motors.  They do last a long time.

But the worst is replacement parts not available

You can buy Mabuchi 385s all day for under 5 bucks. Direct from the factory  can't cost Lionel more than a dollar. The motor in that diesel likely cost them 10 cents. No excuse other than pure greed to produce an engine like that.

Pete

Last time I saw those was in my DC only mpc era 2-4-0.  Isn't there another motor that will drop in?

@jhz563 posted:

Last time I saw those was in my DC only mpc era 2-4-0.  Isn't there another motor that will drop in?

Those motors should be source-able outside of Lionel. If they went that cheap, they're probably not even customized to the application and widely available from Amazon/Ebay or any number of electronics suppliers.

The worm gear is probably press-fitted plastic. If so, it shouldn't even be a major task to transplant them to a replacement. And if on the off chance it's a metal worm, it can probably be pulled off the shaft with some heat and moved onto the new motor without ruining it.

---PCJ

Surprised for a set that retails at $399.99... And of course, it is out of warranty, right?

Agree with everyone else.  Can't believe they put those in an actual engine. 

I never once thought a handcar motor (nor two of them) would be strong enough to pull ANYTHING (aside from maybe a dummy handcar trailer behind it). 

I could see the little motor being strong enough to propel the naked truck around the layout.  Add the frame, shell, and that stack of weights shown, and forget about it. (and by the way, we probably should also account for it pulling at least the rolling stock that came with the set, right?)

Totally unacceptable design.

-Dave

I don't actually have trains with anything but the toy can motors.  Although not all are that tiny. No pitmann sized like I knew from the 70s and expected in at least a couple, my choices went from open frame to crap real fast.  The only saving grace is it should only cost $15-20ea. (I last paid $12 for the size at a pricey brick & mortar about 2014 because it was there. I could have got it for $5-8 online.)

(why do I doubt that price is still low all of a sudden 😒)

When I talk about how MPC did as much harm as good with can motors without rectification for ac, this is a comparable disappointment your experiencing. Now imagine 6ft stacks of returns at Sears and Kmart the first week after Christmas because folks cooked them instantly on their old transformer and track already set up around the trees. (note how many attic collections go from PW, to an mpc car or two, to a cheap cooked 70s-80s DC set then nothing else again)

  The magic smoke lingers about an inch past the sinuses for decades and only smoke pills can help the ill 

The gear is metal. I think many of us could take a better motor, fit the gear to it and make or modify a mounting plate. Time wouldn't come into play. On the other hand for a service station to do it thay have to charge for their time. The bill could easily amount to more the half the price of a new engine.

Pete

Yes, the engine is out of warranty ( by 3 months) Even if it was still in Warranty, doesn't change to availability of the motors. I haven't torn the trucks apart yet to see if the motors can be replaced. My concern is will they burn out again? I'm guessing the motor gets so hot,the brushes fall off the brush holder, second, if better motors can be installed, could be the RCMC handle the current? I'm guessing it probably close to being maxed out with the 2 small motors.

Let us know how it comes out.

@bob2 posted:

Vicious circle.  They have to make the low end stuff inexpensive, so folks will buy it.  You cannot make inexpensive trains with expensive components. 

When did $399.00 become "inexpensive" ??

Lionel will only do this more now that MTH is going bye-bye.  Sad...

Lionel can't go on like this. Sooner or later this will come back to haunt them.

I have heard so many complain about MTH and say Buy Lionel. Last I heard Lionel is not even taking warranty items in for repair. One of my biggest issues has been and always will be promoting the hobby. How are we to do that when big companies charge the prices they do and do not back up their product. Yes MTH may be closing and people are saying "I wouldn't purchase anything from them now". Explain to me what the difference is as far as warranty or service. My heart bleeds for this youngster. I just got done visiting my 6 year old grandson whom I only get to see once maybe twice a year. He has Lionel (from the MPC era) that his Mom Mom and I gave him last year. We set it up while up there and I can honestly say I was so frustrated and disgusted that I now understand why he doesn't play with it. Breaks my heart so much. I love my trains and I love running them. They relax me and I have loads of fun. Even my grandson loves running them when he is hear at Thanksgiving time (we celebrate Christmas then with the family so they can all go to the in-laws at Christmas). Sure hope yo find some way of getting it fixed for them.

Shaking my head wondering what is wrong with the tried and true china drive? Williams used it on their Chuggington and Brewster / Thomas locos which they had a fire sale for $59.99 & they use it on all of their locos, at one time there was a lifetime warranty.

I know it's not the favorite for 2 railers, but it is a bullet proof drive.  And Lionel wouldn't need to add all of those weights because the actual trucks and flywheels would provide enough weight.

Chuck,

Wow what a disappointment they used such crap parts.

Got a Lionel Part number?   When I look up the  The LC ET44AC doesn't show any parts list from what I found.  Looks similar to the Thomas Tank motor.  

Pic of the gearing on the motor?

Jim

@feet posted:

Lionel can't go on like this. Sooner or later this will come back to haunt them.

It's already haunting us.

Wish I had something similar to give him.

Chuck this is awful, and it makes me hopping mad!!  No flywheels?  The worms are probably pressed onto the motor shafts, so upgrading the motors to something better would be a big job.  Exact replacement motors could be fitted if the parts are available.  But they would probably burn out just as quickly.  Lionel should be ashamed of itself for selling such an under-engineered and under-spec'd loco!  It's a marketing failure too, because if someone's first experience is frustration and disappointment, there won't be a second purchase!  

I feel so badly for the young boy...  I'm willing to personally wire you a cash contribution to buy him something better, with real, built-in quality they way they USED to be made!  Maybe you can find out what his favorite railroad is, what radius of curve, which transformer, etc.  Life is too short to drink bad wine.  And thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!

Appears to be the loco from this set:

http://www.lionel.com/products...onchief-set-6-84732/

Edit: I just noticed the locomotive "features": Two powerful maintenance-free motors

Thanks Training Wheels,  

Your set link helped bring up the parts list for this ET44, here is the part:

I looked through my stash of about 70 motors.  These are the closest I see - probably not it as worm pitch looks wrong.  I got close as I could on the caliper to read - not exact.  I don't have any part numbers listed on these motors.

Jim

Once MTH turns out the lights Lionel's bean counters will go crazy reducing expenses.

This is what people have to look forward to once MTH goes out junk! Way to go Lionel! 

I sure feel bad for the youngster. This is one of the reasons I have quit buying anything with a motor. After parts fell out of the box of a brand new lion master big boy, I knew I was done with Lionel and MTH both. I'm on to scenery and rolling stock and am a much happier guy for that.

Wow, a slot car motor.

@bmoran4 posted:

Well, technically, they are maintenance free.  They can't be maintained.  When they die you have to buy a new train, apparently.

Hopefully someday the part (even though it's a cr@ppy part) becomes available so a repair can at least be attempted once.

-Dave

@Ted S posted:

............................I feel so badly for the young boy...  I'm willing to personally wire you a cash contribution to buy him something better, with real, built-in quality they way they USED to be made!  Maybe you can find out what his favorite railroad is, what radius of curve, which transformer, etc.  Life is too short to drink bad wine.  And thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!

While that's a noble and generous gesture, think through how that plays out in the end.  We all chip in a few bucks for this case, then this happens again (and again).  Word gets out from that one family that Chuck went above and beyond to get the kid a new set. 

Eventually there will be multiple customers looking for the same resolution, and so how many replacement sets are going to be funded this way?  Any that are not would be looked at as a "this other customer got resolution, but then I didn't" scenario.  IMO that would bring a new dynamic to the situation that could unfairly reflect negatively on Chuck and his shop.

-Dave

I don't recall seeing whether or not Chuck's shop sold the set originally.  If the set didn't come from his shop, extra kudos to him for trying to help.  

I agree with the post above saying that having people chip in is a fine gesture but a slippery slope.  Also appalled at the low quality of the motor.

Some ideas:  1) Help the mother to write a letter to Lionel about the situation.  Any company that cares about their customers (especially new ones) should be willing to take action even though it's just outside of the warranty period.  It would be really disappointing if Lionel won't help out.  2) Find a reliable used PW or MPC engine, and give it to the mother or sell it at cost.  

Hopefully, this is an opportunity to build a future hobbyist.  

Another thought - if Chuck is a member of LCCA, try contacting them for advice, since they have become very intertwined with Lionel.  Maybe they have some suggestions, or can contact someone at Lionel on the customer's behalf.

A MPC engine won't work. Lionchief has a constant 18 volts on the track. A variable transformer is needed.

Chuck,

Look at motor # 6SP-8060-103 , it may work.

WOW! you guys are the greatest!! Thanks for caring so much. This world need more guys like you! Don't know what to do yet, will figure it out.

@Lionel Parts posted:

Chuck,

Look at motor # 6SP-8060-103 , it may work.

 

The motor may fit but the issue is the gear. Getting the gears off the old motors is bad enough, in this case since the motors are already toast it doesn't matter if they get destroyed. Its mounting that gear on a replacement without damaging it thats the hard part. You can find that motor no problem its the gear that makes it unique. 

BTW that isn't the only engine with that tiny motor. The starter set 0-8-0s and Docksiders have a similar motor and I believe some on the Lionchief versions had that same small motor carried over.

Pete

@Mallard4468 posted:

I don't recall seeing whether or not Chuck's shop sold the set originally.  If the set didn't come from his shop, extra kudos to him for trying to help.  

I agree with the post above saying that having people chip in is a fine gesture but a slippery slope.  Also appalled at the low quality of the motor.

Some ideas:  1) Help the mother to write a letter to Lionel about the situation.  Any company that cares about their customers (especially new ones) should be willing to take action even though it's just outside of the warranty period.  It would be really disappointing if Lionel won't help out.  2) Find a reliable used PW or MPC engine, and give it to the mother or sell it at cost.  

Hopefully, this is an opportunity to build a future hobbyist.  

FWIW, I agree with the above statements.

Once had an inexpensive HO Pacific, and the motor looked to be very similar to what's been shown here. In HO, it's "okay", but O...?  

In any case, I hope it works out.

Mark in Oregon

@Mallard4468 posted:

Another thought - if Chuck is a member of LCCA, try contacting them for advice, since they have become very intertwined with Lionel.  Maybe they have some suggestions, or can contact someone at Lionel on the customer's behalf.

I’d drink to that...Our dear friends at Lionel should should step up to the plate and knock one out of the park!..here’s a little tyke, newbie to the hobby, just what this hobby needs, ....and he’s left holding the bag!...c”mon Lionel .....do the right thing!!!...

Pat

While it might be understandable that a self-propelled handcar would have a smaller can motor, I don't understand the use of these smaller motors in locomotives that will be pulling a load on them. I've stayed away from the newer locomotives that use these smaller motors like the Dockside and the 0-8-0 starter set steam engines because I have heard too many stories of these motors prematurely failing. Even the first motor used in the Polar Express locomotive was too small and was eventually changed by Lionel to a larger motor.

I haven't had nearly the problems with the standard round Mabuchi motor that has been used in so many starter type Lionel (K-Line and RMT) locomotives since the late 1980's. Of all the engines I've had, I've only had 3 motors fail, but because it is such a standard part, I've had no trouble getting a replacement. I personally recommend folks go with a slight older pre-Lion Chief starter set, just for reliability and availability of parts.

To Lionel's credit, what I think they did here was utilize the same truck and frame assembly that will be used for the LionChief Plus version of this engine. The larger LionChief Plus motor probably drops right into the hole. Whereas the smaller starter set motor doesn't. Which is why you see the mounting bracket on the LionChief version here, with the smaller motor. But that doesn't justify putting such a small pair of motors in a locomotive.

I'm not an electrical expert on motor specs, so whether a smaller motor is akin to less quality or pulling power, I can't say. But from what I've read on the forum, it does seem that larger motors do better in train engines. They can fail too, but I don't read as many posts about motor failure with larger DC can motors as I do with these smaller worm gear drive locos.

Whether the loco would perform better with just a single larger vertically mounted motor of the LC+ style, I don't know. But starter sets are the calling card to the future. And while I understand controlling costs, there's a certain point where cost control becomes detrimental. Not to mention - and I noticed it months ago - that the small motors for these Tier 4 engines are not in stock.

Personally, I was disappointed with this Tier 4 locomotive. But that's what happens when you put scale guys in charge of designing a traditional product. And I wouldn't consider this a traditionally sized locomotive. It's over 16-inches long which is more akin to a MTH Imperial type locomotive. If it does run on a 31 inch curve (as the Imperial does) it going to look pretty goofy doing it, as does the MTH Imperial one. MTH did a better job with the proportions of the early Railking Dash-8 and SD90-MAC, both of which were just over 14 inches in length. Also notice that MTH has gone back to the Railking/Rugged Rails versions in their starter sets.

Good luck to you Chuck in trying to resolve this issue in hopefully what will be a satisfactory solution for this young newcomer to the hobby.

Wow ...Dixie Cup products, designed to be used once and thrown away ..  not just some trains (old Lionel, Marx, and Williams are revered), but two huge corporations went bankrupt from the public fleeing junk products.....is there a message there?  I could cite the alarm clock l used for decades when working. .new ones turned to junk....now long gone...

Who actually designs these things, Lionel or the contractor? Starter sets should be bullet proof so as to want more down the road. Where's common sense here. What a shame. I certainly hope this is not the norm for lionchief sets.

Is it possible to switch out those trucks for trucks that would accept a better motor?

@Bill T posted:

Once MTH turns out the lights Lionel's bean counters will go crazy reducing expenses.

Bill you say this quite frequently. I think it's worth pointing out that in the last few decades, Lionel is the only 3-rail train company considered worthy of purchase by an outside investment firm.

During the legal wranglings with Lionel, it was reported that an outside buyer was considering purchasing K-Line, but it fell through. Yeah, with the 5 million dollar preexisting debt K-Line had, no surprise that happened. And most of that debt was probably from doing too much expensive new scale product tooling without the necessary normal retail level sales to recover that investment in a satisfactory time frame.

Weaver tried to find a buyer to continue the company as was. That didn't happen so the tooling was split between Lionel and Atlas. S-Helper, though not 3-rail, was purchased by MTH, so as an independent company, it was no more. The UMD Industrial Rail tooling was purchased by Atlas, supposedly damaged along with the rest of their 0 scale tooling during the Sanda Kan upheaval, so who's what has happened to that tooling, who knows? It may not even exist anymore. 

And there are other companies too. And then there's smaller niche companies and retailers, who have had to shut their doors because no one was interested in buying the business. Or because they didn't think they could make the investment back by purchasing the company.

And if anyone bothered to watch or pay attention to the TCA museum presentation videos, you would have heard Mike Wolf imply (around 6-7 years ago), that MTH was loosing money. What he said was that he had lots of ideas for new products, but every time he suggested one, Andy would tell him "you're going to put us deeper in the hole." That sounds to me like they weren't making money. And it would certainly explain the lack of new product tooling. And it might explain why no one has been interested thus far (as much as we know) in purchasing the company. What "savvy" investor wants to buy a company that is losing money, or performing marginally at best.

Look, I'm not knocking MTH here or any other firm. But there is a reality to being in business, and it means there has to be a profit made. Just as there is a reality to be a consumer: How many times have we seen threads about the best place to find for the lowest price on such-and-such a product? Sorry, there are a good many train buyers who are bean counters too. Or how about the folks buying Menards stuff (which is not without defects and quality problems) because it is priced so much lower.... welcome to the bean counter club ! And also worth stating again, Menards is NOT a train company: It is a home improvement chain that is contracting to have stuff made for them. They don't have any assets or tooling.

And Lionel has continued to do new product tooling, which is expensive. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Lionel recently spent $100K to retool the scale reefer car. How are they going to make that back? They should raise the list price on those at least 50%, but people are complaining now about scale product rolling stock prices that in many cases are only $15-$20 more than a traditional product. I laugh when I hear the complaint "$90 for a scale box car?" That happens to also be the price for a traditional one that has a licensed name on it. 

Where is the new product tooling from Atlas 0 and MTH? (Yes, MTH did do the scale 44 ton switcher, and on average it takes 4-5 years just to recoup tooling investment costs... no profit til that happens).

Well I could say a lot more based on things I've heard inside the industry, but I'll say it again, just be thankful an outside firm saw fit to buy and continue Lionel as a company. I'm not defending everything Lionel does, as with the point of this thread. But there are a bunch of other companies who didn't have such good fortune to find a buyer.

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Bill you say this quite frequently. I think it's worth pointing out that in the last few decades, Lionel is the only 3-rail train company considered worthy of purchase by an outside investment firm.

During the legal wranglings with Lionel, it was reported that an outside buyer was considering purchasing K-Line, but it fell through. Yeah, with the 5 million dollar preexisting debt K-Line had, no surprise that happened. And most of that debt was probably from doing too much expensive new scale product tooling without the necessary normal retail level sales to recover that investment in a satisfactory time frame.

Weaver tried to find a buyer to continue the company as was. That didn't happen so the tooling was split between Lionel and Atlas. S-Helper, though not 3-rail, was purchased by MTH, so as an independent company, it was no more. The UMD Industrial Rail tooling was purchased by Atlas, supposedly damaged along with the rest of their 0 scale tooling during the Sanda Kan upheaval, so who's what has happened to that tooling, who knows? It may not even exist anymore. 

And there are other companies too. And then there's smaller niche companies and retailers, who have had to shut their doors because no one was interested in buying the business. Or because they didn't think they could make the investment back by purchasing the company.

And if anyone bothered to watch or pay attention to the TCA museum presentation videos, you would have heard Mike Wolf imply (around 6-7 years ago), that MTH was loosing money. What he said was that he had lots of ideas for new products, but every time he suggested one, Andy would tell him "you're going to put us deeper in the hole." That sounds to me like they weren't making money. And it would certainly explain the lack of new product tooling. And it might explain why no one has been interested thus far (as much as we know) in purchasing the company. What "savvy" investor wants to buy a company that is losing money, or performing marginally at best.

Look, I'm not knocking MTH here or any other firm. But there is a reality to being in business, and it means there has to be a profit made. Just as there is a reality to be a consumer: How many times have we seen threads about the best place to find for the lowest price on such-and-such a product? Sorry, there are a good many train buyers who are bean counters too. Or how about the folks buying Menards stuff (which is not without defects and quality problems) because it is priced so much lower.... welcome to the bean counter club ! And also worth stating again, Menards is NOT a train company: It is a home improvement chain that is contracting to have stuff made for them. They don't have any assets or tooling.

And Lionel has continued to do new product tooling, which is expensive. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Lionel recently spent $100K to retool the scale reefer car. How are they going to make that back? They should raise the list price on those at least 50%, but people are complaining now about scale product rolling stock prices that in many cases are only $15-$20 more than a traditional product. I laugh when I hear the complaint "$90 for a scale box car?" That happens to also be the price for a traditional one that has a licensed name on it. 

Where is the new product tooling from Atlas 0 and MTH? (Yes, MTH did do the scale 44 ton switcher, and on average it takes 4-5 years just to recoup tooling investment costs... no profit til that happens).

Well I could say a lot more based on things I've heard inside the industry, but I'll say it again, just be thankful an outside firm saw fit to buy and continue Lionel as a company. I'm not defending everything Lionel does, as with the point of this thread. But there are a bunch of other companies who didn't have such good fortune to find a buyer.

 

I don't know many people that can afford $90.00 freight cars. I can't and wouldn't if i could. If that's the new normal than this hobby is doomed.

Strange that both motors were burned out.  Makes one wonder what happened to this loco, no?  These motors, as others have mentioned, are ubiquitous in hobby products.  I've seen many of them in airplanes and other R/C toys.   I don't think the problem is likely the motors themselves (given both failing simultaneously) but either the implementation of the drive train or accidents that occur with usage.   As in some extraordinary load, mechanical (most likely I'd guess) or electrical.  You cannot build a product that some consumer won't manage to destroy, for one thing .

I agree that appealing to the LCCA or, most usefully, Lionel directly will likely result in a happy resolution.  Chuck, as a former Lionel staffer, may be aware of who to contact to get results.  I don't think Lionel wants deeply disappointed customers, even if "user error" was one possible cause.  Whining and complaining about what Lionel might do now that the always faultless MTH is leaving the scene is unproductive and boring, in my view .

"I don't know many people that can afford $90.00 freight cars."

I think Lionel has gotten this message. The new catalogs have less detailed standard O scale freight cars that are selling at Charles Ro for $30-40, of which I've ordered a few.  In general, a little nicer to my eye than Menard's larger selection of cars.  But more expensive.  But not $90.

@Landsteiner posted:

Chuck, as a former Lionel staffer...

Did I miss something here?

TRW

No, never was employed by them. However, have been representing the company through service since 1976.

My apologies for getting your relationship with Lionel wrong.  Brain quake, apparently .

@johnstrains posted:

Wow, a slot car motor.

Many a true word.. Tri-Ang went heavily into slot cars in the late 60s and 70s, and fitted the same motors into their OO gauge trains. They were actually very reliable but almost uncontrollably fast..

The Tri-Ang name is gone now, but much of their railway range lives on as Hornby. The slot-car motors are gone, though.

RMC did some historical articles recounting old O scale kit builders, that had me drooling, and nearly weeping....now or soon after MTH sinks beneath the waves, l hope somebody does a book recounting this three rail boom period, who did what to who, AND, who is on first?

Someone get this kid a Postwar era set of 2343's or other diesel!  Bet you can find a decent pair AND a postwar transformer to handle running it for less than this cheap *** set cost originally.  If I had a spare engine, I would gift it to the child for nothing!   This is the kind of crap that ****es me off at these companies.  You go cheap, even on starter sets and expect these kids to have a good experience and stay with the hobby.  That is NOT going to happen with crap like this being sold to kids.  Lionel tried this with the later Scout sets and we know what a total POS those are.  Now the early 2-4-2 scout style engines had nice spur gear motors in them.  Heck, even the LTI era steam starter sets had better motors.  So sad to see this.   AD

@Landsteiner posted:

Strange that both motors were burned out.  Makes one wonder what happened to this loco, no?  These motors, as others have mentioned, are ubiquitous in hobby products.  I've seen many of them in airplanes and other R/C toys.

$50 R/C toys at Walmart maybe, but if you spend $399.00 on an hobby shop grade R/C toy you get better motor (s)

 You cannot build a product that some consumer won't manage to destroy, for one thing .

This is true, but this is by far one of Lionels worst/cheapest efforts at a "durable" product. There are plenty of examples of their better efforts.

Its hard to believe, but at some point.  A poorly made product, just "might" actually be Lionels fault.

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

 

To Lionel's credit, what I think they did here was utilize the same truck and frame assembly that will be used for the LionChief Plus version of this engine. The larger LionChief Plus motor probably drops right into the hole. Whereas the smaller starter set motor doesn't. Which is why you see the mounting bracket on the LionChief version here, with the smaller motor...

Interesting theory.   I couldn't find an exploded parts photo for the LionChief Plus ES44, I don't think they've been posted yet. 

One of the newest LC+ diesels I could find was a GP7 from 2018, product number 84108.  The motor has restricted availability.  It's a round RS-385 with what looks like an obviously multi-threaded worm.  Probably back-drivable, and consequently a taller (faster) gear ratio too, which is acceptable given the greater torque of the larger motor.

If it's true that Lionel has gone to back-drivable gearing in its LC+ diesels, that's a worthwhile improvement.  Unfortunately it won't help this boy because there's no way a worm with that pitch will match the worm wheel in his truck.  Changing worm wheel is probably a bugger; easier to change the whole truck.  So if and when the LC+ parts become available, you could "repair" it by replacing both trucks, both motors, and probably the electronics board stack.  He would have his grandfather's axe with the head and handle both changed!  

Don't assume a later version has the same gear or motor. Recall from Alex's post about the first generation Lionmaster Big Boy. That also had a unique gear and motor that is NLA. The newer release has a different gear and can't be used to repair the older engine. 

With all the white elephants Lionel is producing they will have to establiah a special park or maybe landfill where they can end their useful life.

Pete

"Its hard to believe, but at some point.  A poorly made product, just "might" actually be Lionels fault."

Absolutely.  It's quite amazing though, that to a few people, any problem a customer is having must be Lionel's fault and, indeed,  a nefarious plot to defraud the consumer and, of course, undermine our way of life .

@Landsteiner posted:

Chuck, as a former Lionel staffer...

@PaperTRW posted:

Did I miss something here?

@Chuck Sartor posted:

No, never was employed by them. However, have been representing the company through service since 1976.

Thanks, Chuck. I was beginning to think there was a story I hadn't heard before...

And besides, why would a former Lionel employee want to hang out here anyway?

TRW

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Last week a young enthusiast and his mom came to my shop. In hand was a fairly new Lionel Lionchief / bluetooth  ES44 diesel engine. Only ran a few times since new. Popped the shell and I got a surprise! The 2 motors are like the light duty handcar motor. My first thought was the circuit board. Put some leads from muli-tester. Nope, getting voltage from the socket for the motors. Wiring looked good, so checked the motors with a ohm reading.  Both of them with open circuit. No good. Checked Lionel's website. Motors are not available.

 The young lad and mom were waiting and broke the news. Both motors burn't out, and no replacements available. needless to say both were extremely disappointed. The set was gifted to him. Now I told them, it may be only be temporary out of stock, or the motors may never be available again.

It is this type of situation that tends to turn first time customers return or forget about the hobby.  

A lot of great discussion concerning Lionel and their sets and various motor issues.

I believe we need to get back to the issue at hand,  are there drop in motors available to repair this engine?

If so where can they be obtained so Chuck can repair this engine - even if its with the same scrap DC motors.

There are some real experts on this Forum who can answer this question to some degree.

Lets see if we can as a group get the job done.

Chuck, 

Do you have better photos of the motors in question and their part numbers?

Do you have a photo of the motor out of the engine so we can see the spur gear?

It would be a good start in hunting something down. 

The motor is common and can be had, its transfering the unique gear that is difficult. That said why would anyone want to use that same motor? 

Chuck has the experience, I am sure he will solve this.

Pete

@Norton posted:

BTW that isn't the only engine with that tiny motor. The starter set 0-8-0s and Docksiders have a similar motor and I believe some on the Lionchief versions had that same small motor carried over.

Pete

I have a Lionel 2032030 0-6-0T LC+2 on pre-order.  I was wondering how they make a decent loco for only $250, but it looks the same as the docksider which went for $100.  Hope the motors in the $250 version are better than what I see here in this thread.

Is it just the brushes in the motors?...take off the brush end cap and see if the armatures are burnt or the brushes are gone....maybe tear apart an old slot car motor for the brush cap....but it will have to be a cheap one as the better slot car motors have replaceable carbon/copper brushes in them.

How about a brushed model airplane motor?

I don't know what Chuck's shop rate is but fixing it could get expensive real quick.

If the engine was replaced: (Based on a Lionchief+ GP38 pricing)

1.  Could existing handheld remote be transferred to new engine? Otherwise a universal remote has to be part of the deal.

2.  What level do you have to get to eliminate the cheap motor? There seems to be the street price $315-350 and now a version at about          $190. Both without remotes included. (I'm thinking the $190 version may have this same cheap aspect.)

3.  Youngster would probably take to the Bluetooth app like a duck to water. Therefore, a transformer wouldn't be my choice for him.

Update: talked to Lionel today. Talked with Katie who was cordial and professional, as usual. I asked her what the status of the motor I need. ( gave the number to her) she came back and said that their stock of replacement motors has already been depleted. Guess I'm not the only one with this problem with this engine. She said to call back late October and she would have a better idea if the motor is in stock/ will be available/ permanently discontinued.  Drat. I guess I need to figure this out for myself.  A couple of light bulbs went off in my head. The first picture compaires the locomotive motor to a handcar motor. The locomotive motor was about 10% larger. Speaking of which, you can't remove the plate as it will not fit over the worm gear. So the handcar motor is out. Next was John's (Lionel Parts) suggestion of a 8060 4-6-4 motor. Close, it may have worked, but the mounting holes were way off on the mounting plate. See pix's. one is blurry, but you get the idea. Can't upgrade the motor much, as a round motor will not fit, it needs flat sides as the motor sits in the narrow truck frame. Next I checked a series 2 dockside motor. ( Last pix ) Just about perfect, mounting holes line up, fits in the truck frame, I guess it is the same basic motor, and there is more than enough room in the body shell for the flywheels, something that the original motor did not have. Half the battle won. Now the challenge is removing and replacing the worm gear without ruining the motor or gear, or both.

Chuck, if you don't have a puller that will work, a Great Planes gear puller will get the gears off. Just google the name, lots of hits at varying prices. Having done a few of these let me suggest drilling the replacement out to fit the shaft. Then use retaining compound or CA to hold it in place. Trying to press it on can be risky especially if you don't have a basket of motors.

Pete

Lionel Command Control Pickup Truck Motor...

Lionel M7 set.

Glad you made some progress Chuck!

Everyone says that Frank Timko is a wizard when it comes to removing and installing worm gears.  Maybe he would entertain a phone call or chat, and offer you some advice?  Honestly I wish someone would invest some quality time shadowing him, or even make a video.  I think the worm gear swap will become a very important repair skill in the years ahead.

Also, if you really needed to use the 8060 motor from the baby 4-6-4, couldn't you just drill new holes in the mounting plate a little further apart, that match the 8060 motor?  Thanks for sharing, we're all learning from your struggles!

Looks like Train Nut has a solution. Cut the flywheel off if it can’t be used. 

Train Nuts motor is from the 0-8-0.  I have them in stock, I will check for fit. (Screw hole placement.) The plate could be drilled to accept a different motor, if needed. I would prefer to keep the work to a minimum .

I hope it works Chuck. Keep us posted. 

I will close this out by saying SUCCESS! After looking some motors over, I decided on the motor for the 4-6-0 Harry Potter Hogwart Express. The screw holes aligned with the screw holes in the mounting bracket. And it had the shortest worm gear to pull. And it had the small benefit of a couple of brass flywheels. Pulling the worms off wasn't as nasty job as I expected. I laid a hot solder iron on the worm gear on each motor for about 3 minutes this expanded the gear enough to quickly use a thin narrow punch while it still hot and knock the gear off the shaft without damaging the new motors. After everything cooled, I was able to tap the worm gears from the original motors on the new motors. Just little taps at a time and the gears went on without bending the motor shaft. Maybe a little luck was involved there. Remounted the motor assemblies with a little new grease. Wired the motors back up and crossed my fingers. To my amazement it worked and ran smooth. YEA!  I know of a couple of people that are going to be excited tomorrow!    I'm not going to charge them a whole lot, the time I spent on research and repair time I'm taking as a personal challenge to see if it could be fixed with the parts I had on hand. I enclosed some pictures of the new motor with the new gear on and the original motor, and after every thing was back together.  Now I just hope these motors will last longer than the originals! Thanks for your support and reading this...................out.          

Now only of Lionel could have provided the information and parts to pull this off...

Nice work Chuck!  No way Lionel could have gotten it fixed in 3 days even if they had the parts.

Way to go Chuck. Little guy will never forget you. Let’s not forget kudos to Train Nut for getting us to think out of the box. 

These are the things which will bring more new hobbyists into the realm of trains. The mother likely will tell friends and the boy is sure to make comment among his friends about the fix that saved his train.

Great work Chuck!!  

Well done indeed.

Very nice effort and conclusion. Well done.

Do you think these junk motors will be in the Cab Forward that is in the catalog that just came out?

Very good outcome.

Great job! Hopefully you have made a young man see what model railroading is about! There's lots of help here for the asking! But on the downside Lionel should be ashamed to put out an inferior product like this on the market. Shame!

Congratulations! Job well done! That young man will be astounded. That made my night.

Chuck, that was a nice final chapter to read. You're dedication to fixing that young boy's train is admirable. It'd be great if there were more repair guys like you.

Paul

You're THE MAN Chuck! The final result is surely the BEST part of repairing trains!

I'm glad that you figured out a new replacement motor solution Chuck.

My only thought was to see if one of the earlier design DC motor trucks (with the round motor inside the truck) would fit on this particular model. The only 6 wheel diesel truck that I know of is the one for the RSD-4. But heck, if it were my engine, and a 4 wheel motor truck fit properly, I'd go with that over the motor set up Lionel used on this particular engine.

But the issue, outside of having incorrect truck sides, is would the mounting stud that the "C" clip attaches to, be in the right location to fit on this particular model locomotive. My guess is probably not, given the photos you took, with the far forward position on the frame of the hole that the truck mounting stud inserts through.

At my local Lionel shop, now closed, I was very friendly with the repair guy. He used the word "junk" to describe many of these new starter set motors. Now that word gets tossed around a lot, so I tend to call folks out on it. But the guy explained that he didn't see the motor burn out issues with the previous commonly utilized truck mounted DC motors. He said there was no comparison between the standard 4-4-2 starter set steamer and newer locos like the Dockside and 0-8-0, which he replaced motors in very frequently. These new worm gear smaller motors are what he though of as junk.

So why Lionel would take such a small motor and put in into such a large diesel, is well, beyond me. I certainly have not had any issues with my engines with the round gear drive truck mounted DC motors. I've only had 3 of them burn out in the time frame of over 30 years. I think that is to be expected. Even on the plastic framed RS-3, I've made some minor revisions to them so that they have improved pulling ability. For that matter, even the mid-1990's vintage Industrial Switchers (a small unit for certain) use the larger round DC can motor and I haven't had any issues with those. Or the small die-cast 0-4-0 (based on the post war 1615) also uses this same round DC motor, and again, no issues with those as compared to the motor problems of the Dockside and newer 0-8-0.

These newer smaller motors seem to be another story entirely. Is your experience with them Chuck, similar to what my local repair guy had? That these smaller motors seem to go bad at a much higher rate?

Good work Chuck. In addition to fixing your customer's train you gave everyone here a preview of repairing trains in the future. Besides all the train companies that have left or will be leaving the scene, even Lionel seems to have fewer and fewer replacement parts on hand. 

Might be time for some of the cottage industries that make the parts for the pre and post war trains start making these parts for current production.

Pete