Three Rail DCC - Plug and Play O Gauge Locomotives

Hi David, this is very interesting. Do you have any idea which manufacturer may move to the plug and play setup? I am 2 rail but this would be good to know because it will make converting equipment that much easier. 

Hi Phil, thanks for responding.  No I don't have info other than the ESU site indicates Atlas and others.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...lect-loksound-l-v40/

This is exciting, the ESU select series in HO is rock solid with very impressive motor control.   Programming various sound files as easy and straight forward as well.   

Kind regards

Atlas has had plugin adapters on some of their stuff for years.

In 2 rail there are all sorts of SD40s in brass and some plastic and lots of different prices.    You could get any one of these and just install the decoder of your choice.    For motor control the best decoder I find is the NCE D408SR.    I have added a second decoder for sound in a number units.

You did not mention 2 rail or 3 rail, but I assume maybe 3 rail because you talk of MTH who does not do much 2 rail.    I suggest you settle that decision in your mind before  you go too far down the road.

Thanks for that Insight, I appreciate the response and suggestion.  I have decided on three rail. Now that you mention it I recall looking through the Atlas O guage loco parts diagrams and notice that the boards appear to plug in however there is no mention of the interface designation. Would you happen to have that info? 

The Lionel legacy SD40 in Southern livery has caught my eye, just wish it was available with a decoder interface. 

Again, thanks for your comments.

Kind regards

 One of the things that drew me to go DCC with the three-rail trains was the possibility of consisting various manufacturers equipment as is the case with DCC equipped HO and N.  The two MTH PS-3 SD35s I speak of can be consisted using the advance consisting feature common in DCC.  The units are placed into the consist and depending which loco you call up (by 4 digit loco number) that is the front of the consist.

With that being said a couple of questions;

• Does consisting with Legacy, TMCC or DCS work the same way?
• Can you mix the three in a consist and run them reliably together?

I hope I am not wearing my welcome out here.  That would be bad on my first day in the forum.

Kind regards

David Campbell posted:

 One of the things that drew me to go DCC with the three-rail trains was the possibility of consisting various manufacturers equipment as is the case with DCC equipped HO and N.  The two MTH PS-3 SD35s I speak of can be consisted using the advance consisting feature common in DCC.  The units are placed into the consist and depending which loco you call up (by 4 digit loco number) that is the front of the consist.

With that being said a couple of questions;

• Does consisting with Legacy, TMCC or DCS work the same way?
• Can you mix the three in a consist and run them reliably together?

I hope I am not wearing my welcome out here.  That would be bad on my first day in the forum.

Kind regards

No and no. Consisting with DCS and legacy are different and in my opinion, far easier with legacy. You can only run like types together, ie legacy with legacy, TMCC with TMCC and DCS with DCS. I personally have ran a TMCC engine in lead and a legacy behind but the pair didn't run the greatest together. 

You will probably find that there is little interest in new product offerings for OGauge based on track propagation systems (DCC, TMCC, DCS).  Future development activity is currently moving in the direction of direct to loco based wireless systems.

thanks for that Bob, I appreciate the response.

Kind regards

Hi David,

Only the newest Atlas O (2-rail only versions)  will support a direct plug-n-play of the ESU LokSound SelectL V4 DCC decoders.  Currently, I believe the Atlas O 2-Rail U23B and the Dash8 40C are the only two models that have this direct ESU Select L plug-n-play capability.  3-Rail versions use a different Railsounds sound board.

Older Atlas O DCC-ready and DCC equipped 2-Rail locos were designed around a QSI DCC sound decoder, which is now quite inferior to today's DCC sound decoder technology.  For 3-rail Atlas O models, the basic rule of thumb for a 3-rail DCC conversion will require you to just start from scratch and rip out all the original electronics (many folks can get some money for old electronics depending on how old the technology is that you are replacing to help offset the new DCC component costs, however, like most older electronics, it is just pennies on the dollar for what you will get).

For Lionel and MTH, they are not inclined to support plug-n-play of any 3rd party DCC components.  Both MTH and Lionel view their proprietary onboard electronics as a value-add of their product so plug-n-play support of 3rd party DCC decoders is currently not on their road map.  In the case of Lionel, your only choice for DCC is to remove the OEM electronics and start from scratch with a new DCC decoder installation of your choice.  In the case of MTH, unless you plan to use the stock OEM MTH DCC support that is part of their DCS PS3 electronics (older DCS PS2 and PS1 versions do not support the DCC protocol) ,so again, the only course of action here is to just remove the OEM DCS PSx electronics and replace with your choice of DCC decoder.  

There seems to be more-and-more 3-railers dipping their toes into DCC on 3-Rail to get away from the captive proprietary electronics offered by each of the big 3-rail manufacturers and taking advantage of the high quality motor control and sound files offered in the DCC market; however, it comes at the price of basically having to do a "from scratch" DCC decoder install on almost every 3-rail locomotive, which means:

• Motor - pretty straight forward so this part is quite easy.
• Sound - you can usually use the existing OEM speaker so this part is usually quite easy in the conversion, as well.
• Lights - you may need add some resistors if LEDs or low-voltage bulbs are used in the model - some extra work usually needs to be done here.
• Smoke -you may need to add an extra relay or other high power mosfet transistor circuit to interface the DCC decoder with the manufacturer's OEM smoke unit.
• Remote coupler - again, you may need to add an extra relay or other high power mosfet transistor circuit to interface with the manufacturer's OEM remote coupler circuit.  

Scott

excellent response Scott, exactly what I was looking for.  Ripping the controls out and starting over would be fine as far as the work required, especially with the available room under the hood in an O gauge unit.  After packing all this stuff in HO units, it might be fun to try.   The smoke unit I could go either way on but I need to understand the interface with the remote couplers.  It would be great to hear if anyone here has done such a conversion o rknow what the requirements of the coupler set up is.   

Kind regards

Hi David,

Check out this thread, which covers - in great detail - just what you are asking for on interfacing 3-Rail couplers and smoke to a DCC sound decoder:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...s-smoke-and-couplers

Scott

Scott,

This touches every question I had on the issue, certainly looks complete.  I cannot thank you enough for the information and assistance. Need to digest and familiarize myself with the details.  I ordered a couple of LokSound L Selects from Tony's last evening.  Now to choose a victim.  One of my favorite locos is the SD24.  If I could find a PS-3 version in SOU that would the way to go but this would be an interesting project to be sure.   Hopefully I can find installation photos for reference.

Kind regards

Hi David,

In addition to the smoke and couplers thread that Scott mentioned, you might find these useful as well:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...stallataion-mth-shay

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...mth-4-8-4-greenbrier

I have another one in the works for the install I did on my Pecos River Brass Santa Fe, just need to finish it up...

thanks for this and for the info previously posted, really nice work, much appreciated.

Kind regards

A controversy will probably start over the following comment. Conversion of a 3rail OGauge loco to DCC will function well if done properly, but is technologically a step backwards.

thanks for the comment Bob, what system are you running on your layout?

David

BOB WALKER posted:

A controversy will probably start over the following comment. Conversion of a 3rail OGauge loco to DCC will function well if done properly, but is technologically a step backwards.

I politely disagree and I would rather not discuss it because it’s like politics. Nothing will be accomplished by arguing over it. 

Disagreeing opinions on this subject are respected. Some new activities in 2019 may have an impact.

Bob Walker, I will bite.  I have a good number of MTH Proto 1 locomotives.  I want to convert them.  Do I convert them to Proto 2, Proto 3, TMCC through the ELRC, or DCC?  Cost and ease of operation are my criteria.  The Proto 1 locos have little value to sell as is, yet, were well made, even if their electronics were a problem.  I am building a large layout.  I am definitely going to use the Legacy system.  I have three or four of the original TIU's from MTH and can update the software, even though there is not USB.  When Proto 2 came out, I had nothing but trouble with it on my previous layout.  But I understand the upgrades have improved the signal, with or without those lights wired in to supposely improve the signal.  If you convert to DCC, can you run the DCC locos along with the MTH Proto 2 and 3 and Lionel TMCC & Legacy ones?  I am currently just beginning to lay track.

Over the past several years I have converted about 25 OGauge engines to updated control systems including TMCC and bluetooth based and using both track and battery power. TMCC, DCS and DCC offer an enormous amount of functionality and for the most part are good systems.

My point of view is that if I am currently committed to spend the amount of time to do a conversion, I want it to be the very latest technology available. Direct to loco systems seem to be recently coming on strong, avoid the track signal issues and make battery power an option. I believe that this is where all future product development in model trains will be centered.

I've been curious about Airwire and Locolinc for years.  Maybe battery technology doesn't have the perfect blend of size and run time for O scale yet, but it should be easy to trick these systems into running from track power.  Getting the radio signal inside a metal body is an issue; perhaps we could make a resin casting of the die-cast tender shell (or just put it in a trailing boxcar.)  One rub is that I doubt either of these systems would do a good job running classic Lionels with their 3-pole AC motors (electrically noisy and high current draw.)

I've seen both DCS and TMCC/Legacy struggle on large, complex layouts where the track signal gets crossed up.  LionChief Plus is a step in the right direction.  The latest iteration has Bluetooth, but I have NO desire to control a train with my cell phone.   (I much prefer physical buttons / controls to touchscreen.)  The LionChief Plus remote is toy-like, but the idea of R/C direct to the loco works great as a "walk-around" control system on even the most complex layouts.

My $.02.

Thank you all for the comments being offered.  The Airwire concept sounds great, hopefully one of these days I can meet up with someone and see a demo.  For now NCE DCC is my choice, being an NCE owner for so long. 

Kind regards     

No problem with sticking with DCC. The huge installed base insures that it will remain popular for a long time.

Present day LiPO batteries can run OGauge engines. I have used 11.1V 1600mah batteries for my conversions  to battery power and am getting up to 2 hours running before needing to recharge. Also, there is a simple circuit which can adapt the old AC universal motors to run off of the PWM DC that most RC systems generate for motor power.

I have a number of older locomotives, conventional and PS-1.  There are a couple that'll get a TMCC upgrade, but the rest will get DCC (This is because I have a couple that there isn't a DCC LokSound sound file for them, but there is an ERR sound board.).  I don't think DCC is behind Legacy, but is on par, if not better.  With a LokSound L decoder, you get excellent sounds and amazing speed control, all for less then TMCC or PS-3 upgrades.  Plus they are smaller and so fit in locomotives you could never upgrade otherwise.  And with the work THOR73 has done and so kindly shared you can get full smoke and remote couplers with DCC.

After seeing what my brother had with a LokSound decoder in N gauge I did some research and found the L decoder for O.  I bought one and installed it in my conventional Lionel 0-6-0 dockside switcher.  It now has all LED lighting, full sounds, and amazing low speed.  Lionel has never offered command on this locomotive (Lion Chief does not count.  That's remote control not command IMHO.) but now I have it with command.  So my layout will be a mix of Legacy/TMCC and DCC.  I'll wire it to switch between the two as I do not recommend running them at the same time (You can search on my post on that subject matter.), but it will not hurt either system of locomotive if they get powered up under the wrong system.

I wish Atlas would offer DCC drop in for 3R locomotives too, I would start buying from them if they did.  Otherwise I'll stick to Lionel (Legacy) or new MTH PS-3 (DCC) locomotives, as well as conventional or PS-1 to convert to DCC.

After studying the latest info on smartphone app control of DCC, I have backed off on my concerns about DCC being older technology. BlueRail Trains should get credit for introducing this control concept to the model train market.

sinclair posted:

I have a number of older locomotives, conventional and PS-1.  There are a couple that'll get a TMCC upgrade, but the rest will get DCC (This is because I have a couple that there isn't a DCC LokSound sound file for them, but there is an ERR sound board.).  I don't think DCC is behind Legacy, but is on par, if not better.  With a LokSound L decoder, you get excellent sounds and amazing speed control, all for less then TMCC or PS-3 upgrades.  Plus they are smaller and so fit in locomotives you could never upgrade otherwise.  And with the work THOR73 has done and so kindly shared you can get full smoke and remote couplers with DCC.

After seeing what my brother had with a LokSound decoder in N gauge I did some research and found the L decoder for O.  I bought one and installed it in my conventional Lionel 0-6-0 dockside switcher.  It now has all LED lighting, full sounds, and amazing low speed.  Lionel has never offered command on this locomotive (Lion Chief does not count.  That's remote control not command IMHO.) but now I have it with command.  So my layout will be a mix of Legacy/TMCC and DCC.  I'll wire it to switch between the two as I do not recommend running them at the same time (You can search on my post on that subject matter.), but it will not hurt either system of locomotive if they get powered up under the wrong system.

I wish Atlas would offer DCC drop in for 3R locomotives too, I would start buying from them if they did.  Otherwise I'll stick to Lionel (Legacy) or new MTH PS-3 (DCC) locomotives, as well as conventional or PS-1 to convert to DCC.

I'm converting all my older TMCC locos and MTH PS1/PS2 to DCC (ESU/TCS/Sountraxx's) Fun fact- Legacy locos will work on DCC powered track....it worked perfectly on my work bench.

Doing DCC conversions is way easier than doing it in semi scale. most "large scale decoders (other than ESU) have screw terminals-Like ERR's Cruise Commander. Plus there is a lot more room than HO-N scale.

BOB WALKER posted:

After studying the latest info on smartphone app control of DCC, I have backed off on my concerns about DCC being older technology. BlueRail Trains should get credit for introducing this control concept to the model train market.

JMRI Panel Pro on an ipad or smartphone has been an option for quite a while. Here's a quick screengrab of my panel pro layout for this year. Works great on laptop and ipad.

I have all the material for a conversion except the ESU LokSound L decoders which are on their way. What I don't have is a project loco.  Again many thanks to THOR73 for the info and parts lists.  After collecting more stuff than I could ever run on HO I am planning to stay focused on the Southern in three rail.  Should any of you know of a unit for sale please drop me a note.  

Kind regards 

David Campbell posted:

I have all the material for a conversion except the ESU LokSound L decoders which are on their way. What I don't have is a project loco.  Again many thanks to THOR73 for the info and parts lists.  After collecting more stuff than I could ever run on HO I am planning to stay focused on the Southern in three rail.  Should any of you know of a unit for sale please drop me a note.  

Kind regards 

Hopefully my post doesn't break any Forum rules, but I know of a Premier Southern SD24 and Railking GP7 (both MTH PS2) at Imperial Train Company. The best way to contact them is by phone for this order, since these engines are not on the website yet. imperialtrainco.net. I would have sent an email, but you did not have one listed in your profile. 

Edit: Updated with accurate information on the software of both these engines. 

thanks Dan, appreciate the info

Bruk posted:

Fun fact- Legacy locos will work on DCC powered track....it worked perfectly on my work bench.

 Be very careful with that.  Read over my post on the matter.  Yes, it can be done, but there are some things you have to keep in mind to not damage your Legacy locomotive.  I think it has to do with how S gauge locomotives are Legacy/DCC.  I just wish Lionel had done that in O too.  They clearly can work in a DCC environment, but the O locomotives don't always have all that's needed to operate 100%.  This is why when I wire my layout I'll have a switch to switch between the two so that my Legacy locomotives will just start up in conventional mode if they get powered when there's DCC at the track.  Then I'll only have to worry about TMCC engines as they will most likely just take off.

I missed that comment in the previous few posts.  Interesting to be sure.  They would need to be able to be consisted with other DCC units for my purposes however I would guess that is not the case.    

David Campbell posted:

I have all the material for a conversion except the ESU LokSound L decoders which are on their way. What I don't have is a project loco.  Again many thanks to THOR73 for the info and parts lists.  After collecting more stuff than I could ever run on HO I am planning to stay focused on the Southern in three rail.  Should any of you know of a unit for sale please drop me a note.  

Kind regards 

David, I have a new in the box Southern Williams Scale Brass three rail PS-4 Pacific.  It's for sale.  my email address is mileswrich@gmail.com

thanks for the suggestions and leads.  I have listed an e-mail address on my profile, sorry for not doing that previously.

Kind regards

Ted S posted:

I've been curious about Airwire and Locolinc for years.  Maybe battery technology doesn't have the perfect blend of size and run time for O scale yet, but it should be easy to trick these systems into running from track power.  Getting the radio signal inside a metal body is an issue; perhaps we could make a resin casting of the die-cast tender shell (or just put it in a trailing boxcar.)  One rub is that I doubt either of these systems would do a good job running classic Lionels with their 3-pole AC motors (electrically noisy and high current draw.)

I've seen both DCS and TMCC/Legacy struggle on large, complex layouts where the track signal gets crossed up.  LionChief Plus is a step in the right direction.  The latest iteration has Bluetooth, but I have NO desire to control a train with my cell phone.   (I much prefer physical buttons / controls to touchscreen.)  The LionChief Plus remote is toy-like, but the idea of R/C direct to the loco works great as a "walk-around" control system on even the most complex layouts.

My $.02.

I am an Airwire user, and while pleased with the system, l agree that radio antennae are an issue with steam locomotive tenders. For now, I just drill a hole on top, and the antenna is run out. Not prototypical in appearance, but small enough that it's hard to notice.

I might try insulating the shell from the frame and using the shell as an antenna.

As for power, I use regular a.c. 3 rail track power with a bridge rectifier and a 2200 microfarad cap in parallel.

It's true that you need a dc motor to make this work, but at least you can run it with your TMCC and legacy, but you need separate handhelds for each.

THOR73, I have a project loco and have additional questions regarding hardware, wire connectors, etc.  Would you consider exchanging info off-line?

Hi David,

   I also have a three rail DCC system.  I use the NCE 10 amp system with the NCE 408 decoders.  I hate to say it, but to convert locomotives, you have to gut the other guys electronics out and start from scratch.  I haven't tried any of the new MTH locomotives with the Proto 3 so I don't know how they work.

  Dave

  Running the Western Maryland in 1952

WM1400 posted:

Hi David,

   I also have a three rail DCC system.  I use the NCE 10 amp system with the NCE 408 decoders.  I hate to say it, but to convert locomotives, you have to gut the other guys electronics out and start from scratch.  I haven't tried any of the new MTH locomotives with the Proto 3 so I don't know how they work.

  Dave

  Running the Western Maryland in 1952

Hello Dave, 

I'm 3 rail DCC as well, and also running the NEC10 amp system.  The MTH PS3 locos are DCC capable  out of the box, so there wouldnt really be a reason to need to convert those, especially since just about every feature on the engine is mapped to a DCC function key. 

Some interesting commentary.  Anyone who has converted a loco knows that it is an art as well as a science. Think about a control system conversion and adding a battery as well.