tinplate caboose questions

since you're looking at Flyer,

I don't have either of these, so I can't say how they will match up with the 2816.

I think the flyer cabooses shown above will be rather small.  Additionally then I still have to deal with coupler compatibility.  The 2816 hopper have high mounted box couplers.

Here is a comparison of the Flyer 3211 caboose and the Lionel 2817

I'm not sure why the photo is cut off.

The size of the Flyer side dump car is 91/2 inches as is the Flyer caboose.  This is a visual comparison of the Lionel hopper and the side dumping car.

The hopper is packed away at the moment so I can't post a photo of the Flyer caboose and the Lionel hopper side by side until I find the hopper.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Wow - thanks Greg.  Looks like that AF 3211 is pretty much what I was looking for in terms of size/style. Also looks like the flyer coupler mounting rivet could be drilled out to install a box coupler.  I supposed after that adding a light would be up to me

3211 cabeese are illuminated.  3201s are not.  These cabeese are narrower but taller than the 817/2817.  You might look at the 1722/2722 caboose Lionel made late in prewar years.

JHZ563,

   The original 817 Red Caboose has always looked great to me.  

PCRR/Dave

Original Lionel Red with Black base 817 Caboose next to the 2800 series Brown & Red with black base MTH Repro Caboose, ride the end of this work train consist.

Really like the Lionel original colors on this early 817 Caboose also.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

JHZ563,

   The original 817 Red Caboose has always looked great to me.  

PCRR/Dave

Purr/Dave,

 I appreciate your input.  While the overall size looks right, the cupola size compared to the rest of the car body and the tiny window slits just look wrong to me, even for what is an outright toy.

Conversly if you look at the plastic caboose in the foreground of your picture the cupola windows and side windows are a similar size. Additionally there are no windows under the cupola, which is how it would be. I can accept suspension of belief to play with toy trains, but the 817 caboose just looks wrong to me.

JHZ563,

   The Tin 817 was made in early 1900's, the K-line Coca Cola Caboose was made in 1959.

I will take the Tin Plate over the plastic 100% of the time.  If you like the more realistic 3211 Flyer, you can always purchase one, change the Trucks & Couplers on her, and run the 3211 Flyer Caboose with your Lionel consist.  It will look pretty neat.  I always liked them myself and have often wanted to do it.  If I finally find one in absolutely perfect condition, it will probably happen.

I have a custom made Flyer Mini Crane in Front of my Lionel Consist most of the time.  Of course my layouts are designed to be a child like fantasy Train world.  Right down to the Bear Christmas Tree.  We do realism very sparingly in our Christmas Train Room, the 817 Lionel originals fit right in.

PCRR/Dave

I like my 817 too...  I don't actually have an 817.  I do like my 657, but even on that the cupola is somewhat squat compared to the rest of the body. It looks great with the smaller cars but just doesn't match up with the 2816 hoppers.

I just want something that has more consistent proportions for the train I'm building.  I am going to have to actually get to a few shows and keep an eye out for a nice AF example.

JHZ, to be picky  there is no 817 in that pic. its a 657/2657, a smaller piece.  

I always thought that the cupola looked squashed as well .....The 817 is surely copied/modeled for a northeastern railroad prototype.

Rob English posted:

JHZ, to be picky  there is no 817 in that pic. its a 657/2657, a smaller piece.  

I always thought that the cupola looked squashed as well .....The 817 is surely copied/modeled for a northeastern railroad prototype.

You are absolutely correct - my complete goof.  I have been looking at so many tinplate caboose pictures lately I got messed up.

JHZ,

  I see a freight set on eBay right now that has a 263e loco and the 2817 caboose, so it seems that they would be "correct" together.

  The choice is yours though and let us know what you decide. Many of the original prewar cabeese had some squat cupolas...

  If not following "any rules" I like the looks of these...

Tom  

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Here is a comparison of the Flyer 3211 caboose and the Lionel 2817

This is surprising. The AF caboose buried somewhere in my pile seems like it would be much larger than this. Did they make the same style caboose in two sizes? They made a lot of other freight cars in two sizes.

RoyBoy,

In the O gauge American Flyer line there are a number of different cabooses; however the one paired with the Lionel caboose above is the largest at 9 1/2 inches. The others come in around 6 inches.

Of course Flyer also made a caboose for the Wide Gauge line that is very similar to the 9 1/2 inch version.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg,

I have this American Flyer (3017?) caboose; it does not have any ladders or railing. Was  there a version made that way or are these just missing?

Regards

Fred

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I think the curly que couplers are 1938. 1939 was the first year of the link couplers.

Good comparison Greg.  I think that in addition to the size difference, the reds may clash depending on the variation chosen (both the hopper (4 distinct red shades) and the caboose ( the 3211 has at least 2 shades).  Most of the time we wouldn't notice but when you put them together.....

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg,

Thank you,

Fred

There's a Greenburg show in york this weekend.  Hoping to pick up a flyer 3211 there.

RoyBoy posted:

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I think the curly que couplers are 1938. 1939 was the first year of the link couplers.

According to Schuweiler the 9 1/2 inch cars came with the sheet metal couplers in 1938 and the 6 1/2 inch cars had them in 1939.  The link and pin couplers were introduced in 1939 as well.  Of course the Greenberg guide has been known to have errors.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Well I took the whole family to the Greenberg show.  Let’s just call that a challenge - and say my wife is a real trooper 😀

I couldn’t find a flyer 3211 but I did find a nice 817 at a good price.  Now when my loco comes in I will have a nice train to show off.

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

Steamer posted:

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

No, I still think it looks like somebody sat on it.  But who knows how long it will be until I dig up a flyer 3211 with a decent body.  This will do nicely in the interim.

 Gentlemen,

   You can never have to many Tin Plate Trains, L.C. Smith Double guns or F.E. Thomas Bamboo Fly Fishing Rods.  

You got Full Light Green 817 under lock and key don't you!

PCRR/Dave

Just picked up another solid Red 817 with dual Auto Couplers this morning, to add to the 817 mini collection you see in the picture below.  Can't find the original Lionel full Light Green 817, with a set of box couplers on it for sale any where.

jhz563 posted:

Steamer posted:

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

No, I still think it looks like somebody sat on it.  But who knows how long it will be until I dig up a flyer 3211 with a decent body.  This will do nicely in the interim.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ameri...8:g:IK8AAOSwQN5ac0WT

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERI...f:g:gSQAAOSwX0NZwP8u

 

Just picked up another solid Red 817 with dual Auto Couplers this morning, to add to the 817 mini collection you see in the picture below.  Can't find the original Lionel full Light Green 817, with a set of box couplers on it for sale any where.

 

It was only produced by Lionel with Latch couplers.  BTW its Dark Green over Peacock Blue.

Okay, I still think the cupola looks foolish, but I saw something on the ‘bay I couldn’t resist.

I hope I am not developing another “problem”!!

you have.....

some more for comparison...

Flyer, Dorfan & Ives... remarkably, all couple together!

Flyer #3217 & #411 (late version of the 3211)

Flyer #411 and Lionel #817 next to a #2816 hopper.

cheers...gary

Fantastic comparison Gary - Thanks a bunch!

overlandflyer posted:

some more for comparison...

Flyer, Dorfan & Ives... remarkably, all couple together!

Flyer #3217 & #411 (late version of the 3211)

Flyer #411 and Lionel #817 next to a #2816 hopper.

cheers...gary

Gary,

The 6 1/2" Flyer Caboose with the green cupola is a #3017. I am  not aware of a piece of Flyer equipment with the # 3217.

The 9 1/2" Flyer Caboose with the sheet metal knuckle coupler is still considered a #3211.  #411 has the link and pin coupler.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

thank's Greg... my faux pas on the 3017 (it's only stamped in BIG numbers under the frame!!).

on the big caboose, i thought it might be a #411 due to the type XV frame and type XII trucks, but now i see it is a 3211(N), the last one listed before the #411... i'll note (as Schuweiler did not) that the #411 has the type XI couplers.  thanks, again.

by the way, here is another picture of the type XV frame juxtaposed to the 2816 hopper...

from this shot and the book photos, i noticed that the type XV frame sits a bit lower than the type XIV frame... or maybe it's the type XII vs the type VIII trucks, but seeing either one will likely sit lower than the Lionel hopper, you might want to consider which coupler to replace.  i think you'd have better luck putting a tab/ slot coupler on one end of a 2816.

Well, I was the winning bid on evil bay tonight for a 3211 and a couple flyer o gauge gondolas, so I guess I will have my experimental victim soon enough.

 I hate to chop up a pristine mth or Lionel 2816, maybe if it was a repaint.  I will study how to matchup the couplers when it arrives.

Well my not so little red little red caboose has arrived!!

Not bad for $15 bucks eh? (Especially with two flyer gondolas thrown, even if they a little beat up.)

And look- it has cupola windows an imaginary tinplate man could actually look out of!!

So it looks I have some learning to do on how to clean up this critter.  Any constructive advice will be appreciated.

As for comparison to the 817, surprisingly the overall height is about the same but the main roof line is lower, allowing for the more proportional cupola.

Body width is a little thinner than the Lionel/mth cars, but how often do you look straight down on them anyway?

As to changing the couplers, I am having second thoughts now that I see the construction.  The river that holds the coupler shank on also holds trim pieces on as well.  

As another question to the tinplate crowd, since there is already an adapter for latch or box couplers to lobster claw, is there also a premade adapter from latch coupler to slot style coupler?  If not, the easiest fix might be to solder an extension onto an existing adapter and bend it down to catch the slot on the flyer end.  

Anyway, I need to clean up the new caboose, I might even consider a paint project to make it shinier.  Let me know what you guys think.

JHZ563

JHZ563,

   You will have to re-engineer the couplers, no transition hook adapter coupler available, Happy Engineering!   I have been tempted more than once to retro-fit some Lionel Box Couplers to the beautiful 3211 AF Caboose.

PCRR/Dave

Maybe use 1 of the gondolas and mount 2 different couplers on that.  Then you can clean-up 2 cars.

Clean with damp, mildly soaped with Ivory then wire with damper rag.  Dry in front of fan. Polish with your favorite polish, but, make sure you test on the red bottom for compatibility. You can put a screw through the rivet hole or buy a new latch coupler and bend and trim to fit the slot and voila!

Bob English,

   I should probably retro-fit one some time for sure, hay ya got to forgive me on the exact colors, I am partially color blind.  Never the less it is a way cool Green on Green Caboose.  I will be purchasing one and switch it on to another 817 Frame with Auto-Couplers for sure.  Will take some pictures when I get her done.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Bob English,

   I should probably retro-fit one some time for sure, hay ya got to forgive me on the exact colors, I am partially color blind.  Never the less it is a way cool Green on Green Caboose.  I will be purchasing one and switch it on to another 817 Frame with Auto-Couplers for sure.  Will take some pictures when I get her done.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, my point was to clarify the terminology.  Its less confusing if tin-platers use the correct, commonly used words. For instance auto couplers refers to electrically operated couplings, whereas we normally refer to manual coupling as just that... Manual Box Couplers, or latch couplers.

There are multiple shades of many colors including reds, greens, yellows, and blues... if we describe them by their commonly used collector descriptions, we have a common platform by which we can discuss these things accurately... which help everybody to some degree.

BTW, My name is Rob.  Not Bob... save that for Bob Newhart.

Rob,

   Sorry about misreading your name all this time.  It will never happen again.

Identification Terminology for discussing the different kinds of Tin Plate should not be from any kind collectors club.  Lionel, AF and other manufacturers have already identified every item they made and sold, and in reality we all should be using the manufacturer's identification Terminology.   However using slang terms while discussing Tin Plate is common place, and usually easily understood.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave, I appreciate it.

Its interesting that you think it should not come from any club... that it should come from the manufacturers.  I agree.  But, very few people know the manufacturers terminology, and even fewer use it. Even the most common of terms like "e-unit" are collectors slang, or are misapplied terms. The paint colors are a good example of this.... people say "maroon" , when the correct Lionel color is "Wine" and the correct American Flyer color is "Sunset Red".  This kind of misnomer (call it slang if you want) is commonplace in the train community. Folks say "pendulum reverse unit" when there isn't a pendulum in sight!

There are very few terms that are TCA or other club derived... most of it is individual collector derived. My point (clarified further here) is that if we use common terminology we can be more descriptive and accurate in our descriptions, even more so if we used the manufacturers terms. AND, more people will understand what we are trying to say to them.

Rob,

   You make good points and I was just busting you about Collectors Clubs determining Tin Plate Terminology,  I am sure you guys did a great job when you worked on the Tin Plate Book.   As for the original Green on Green 817 Lionel Caboose, thanks for advising me that none of them had ever been produced, with Auto-Couplers.  However now MTH has produced one, in 2817, looks real nice too.  Further I did pick up a pristine Green on Green Lionel 817 Original with the Latch Couplers.  Nice ones are hard to find at a reasonable price, I was lucky to acquire one from a private owner. 

The original Lionel 817 Green on Green will give me 5 different 817/2817 Cabeese, 6 if I can pick up the New Lionel 817 MartyE Pictured in his post, and #7 will be the new Green on Green (slightly different Colored) MTH 2817, if I can find one.   Pretty soon I will have an entire 817/2817 Consist to pull behind my one of a kind, Gun Metal Gray 249ERR.  Shooting for at least 10 different 817/2817 Cabeese to make a nice Consist.

I will continue to look for these a little at a time.

Thanks again for the advise on the Green on Green 817 Lionel original, had no idea that Lionel never produced one with Auto Couplers.

Tin Plate the real stuff!

PCRR/Dave

Pcrr/Dave,

take a look at this listing, it looks like something you would like😁

JHZ563,

   Thanks for bringing this listing to my attention, if they would have a Buy now portion of the listing I might consider it, both of the 817's look to be in real nice shape.  The owner will probably have some kind of reserve on this offering, can't see them going for any $24.00 type price. The Green on Green 817 does have a small blemish on the side of the Caboose however, I could definitely touch it up without any problem.  I do like the dark Green on this particular 817.   I figure these two will go for over $100.00 as the bidding rises.

I usually do not bid on anything however.

If you would please give me your 1st name, I would appreciate it.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

JHZ563,

   Thanks for bringing this listing to my attention, if they would have a Buy now portion of the listing I might consider it, both of the 817's look to be in real nice shape.  The owner will probably have some kind reserve on this offering, can't see them going for any $24.00 type price. The Green on Green 817 does have a small blemish on the side of the Caboose however, I could definitely touch it up without any problem.  I do like the dark Green on this particular 817.   I figure these two will go for over $100.00 as the bidding rises.

I usually do not bid on anything however.

If you would please give me your 1st name, I would appreciate it.

PCRR/Dave

 

No problem Dave - the name's John. 

I don't generally bid on stuff on either but that is how I got my flyer 3211.  Now if I only had time to spruce it up.  When I get back to it, in the short term I will probably just try to clean and polish it, but I would like to try my hand at repainting.  I just don't think I will ever get that piece up to a high gloss without doing so.  

As to coupling the flyer to the 2816/816 hoppers, I am really thinking that I am first going to try modifying an adapter to go between the couplers.  The overall look of the train would be more consistent if I replaced the truck and coupler assemblies, but I don't think its needed to make it work.

JHZ563,

   John I try to keep my Tin Plate in original condition however there are exceptions.  Make sure if you do any painting you get the correct color paint.  

My original Green on Green 817 Lionel Caboose was delivered today, it is even more perfect than I thought it would be, pictures can be deceiving.  I will definitely be purchasing more of this particular man's private collection, when he wants to part with his Tin Plate.  I know there are a lot of Paint Variations on these original 817's, this gentlemen advised me that he has a couple more that he might sell me as time goes along. 

My little Collection of 817's is growing.  At this point I only have one MTH 2817 all the rest are Lionel originals.  However this happens to be the 1st 817 that I purchased that has the Latch Couplers.  According to what Rob English advised me, the Green on Green Lionel Tin Plate Cabooses never came with Auto or Box Couplers., that is why I could never find one to purchase.  I was going to swap Bases and put the Auto Couplers on this one, but this 817 is absolutely Pristine, and should not be altered in any way, so she stays original like she is.  She will couple to my other 817 Cabeese with out any problem.  

Got to say I never really liked the Latch couplers, had a lot of fun with the Auto-Couplers on my Fathers Lionel 263E Work Train when I was a kid, the boys with the Latch Couplers on their Trains could never use an Uncoupler Track as I did.

When Steamer (Dave) posted the picture of his Green on Green 817 Caboose, I started looking for one again.  Glad Rob gave me the advise he did, I would still be looking for a Green on Green 817 with at least, Box Couplers.  

I will take some more pictures when I get her on the Tracks with the other Cabeese.

All the best,

PCRR/Dave

Couple more pictures on the Tracks of the 817 mini collection.

With the Lionel 249 Engine and Tender, after dark in the Picture Window

Nice find Dave! The colors on that original 817 are as bright as my mth 2817 repro.

John,

   The guy also has a real nice 2 tone Red 817 that I had never seen before, came with a very early set, had Latch couplers on it also.  

The Green on Green 817 I got from him had never been on the Tracks, until I placed her on my FasTrack.  The old paint is absolutely perfect, I was very lucky to get it.  Maybe some day he will consent to sell me the 2 Tone Red one also.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John,

   The guy also has a real nice 2 tone Red 817 that I had never seen before, came with a very early set, had Latch couplers on it also.  

The Green on Green 817 I got from him had never been on the Tracks, until I placed her on my FasTrack.  The old paint is absolutely perfect, I was very lucky to get it.  Maybe some day he will consent to sell me the 2 Tone Red one also.

PCRR/Dave

 

Besides the box couplers, its interesting that yours has what appears to be orange painted window frames and the Mth one I have has brass.  I like that your work surface is just as cluttered as mine!

John,

   I put the new Green on Green 817 on display in the picture window of the Formal Living Room for everyone to see.  

PCRR/Dave

Behind the 249ERR she does look cool.

keep in mind that tinplate will fade under long duration UV exposure.

OLF,

   Roger that, it will not be on the Picture Window ledge very long.

PCRR/Dave

i should add that for museum displays i had them buy some covers for the florescent bulbs that were supposed to block the UV.  i would imagine that the same type of material would be available for windows (or frankly, maybe even the windows themselves?) that would do a similar job.  i've experienced UV attacking all sorts of other surfaces, too... furniture, etc.

The orange window frames are correct as are the brass ones.  The orange windows and nickel journal boxes date Daves cab to 1926-1930.  Some detail photos on the truck and I could tighten that up a bit.

Rob,

   I will take some additional pictures for ya as soon as I can.  

PCRR/Dave

Tin Plate the real Stuff!

Rob,

   Here are the pictures of the Trucks/Couplers you wanted to see, to narrowing the production time period.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

   Here are the pictures of the Trucks/Couplers you wanted to see, to narrowing the production time period.

PCRR/Dave

Dave... 1927-1928, that combination of color, trim color, journal plating and truck type was made only during that time.

Rob,

   Thanks a bunch for dating my newly acquired Green on Green Lionel Caboose.  Looks like the old gentlemen knew what he was talking about when he said it was made in 1927, he has a seriously cool Red on Red Caboose with silver trim, that I would really like to have for my little collection also.

PCRR/Dave

thanks also, know I know when mine was made.

So as a first try towards mating the flyer caboose to a 2816 hopper, I got a couple adapters to play with. I straightened out one to experiment with.

In theory it works great, just drops right in

Unfortunately in practice it doesn’t work.

As soon as the cars start to move the adapter lifts upwards and comes loose.  I bought a few of these to play with.  If I work out something I like I will probably make my own out of stainless sheet stock.

 John,

   I just made a deal on an AF lighted Caboose that has a different Spike type Coupler. After it is delivered I will take some pictures of it, for you to see.   The reason I picked up this particular O Gauge AF lighted Caboose is that the AF Spike Coupler is similar to the Spike portion of the Lionel Box coupler, although it looks to be up side down.  I want to see where this leads as I try to couple these pieces of different manufacturers rolling stock together.

Further if you have not seen the nice job Chris L did adding the LED's to the tail end of his new lighted Blue Comet Caboose, it's something I do believe you will be interested in, especially if your AF Caboose is lighted.  Take a gander at the other Weekend Tin Plate 3/9/18  thread.  When you have time.

PCRR/Dave

jhz563 posted:

So as a first try towards mating the flyer caboose to a 2816 hopper, I got a couple adapters to play with. I straightened out one to experiment with.

In theory it works great, just drops right in

Unfortunately in practice it doesn’t work.

As soon as the cars start to move the adapter lifts upwards and comes loose.  I bought a few of these to play with.  If I work out something I like I will probably make my own out of stainless sheet stock.

the coupler on the caboose needs bent up, then it should be OK

Steamer,

David, Roger that, with a little bending his modification will definitely work.

Take a look at Chris's LED work on the AF lighted Caboose in the other thread, seriously cool stuff!  Going to due some thing similar when mine arrives, sometime this next week.  I intend to work on some engineering for the couplers on the AF to match the Lionel Box Couplers.  Might need a suggestion form you on the work.

PCRR/Dave 

Rob,

  I just picked up another Caboose, this one is an American Flyer pictured above on the tracks and below.  I believe it is a 3211 from the design of the Red Lighted Caboose, with it came an Aqua/ Orange Box Car. Neither have any AF Ident numbers on them, not even stamped in the Tin.  Can you give me the real AF Identification numbers on these 2 pieces of Rolling Stock and it would be nice to know when they were really built by AF.  

I figured you might be able to identify the age and number Idents for me.

I also asked PaPa Steve and others in a different post whether I can change out the old Incon light in this Red AF Caboose by simply removing the old bulb and inserting a LED like I do for some of old Lionel Rolling Stock, or will I need to rework the lines with resisters?

PCRR/Dave

American Flyer Caboose and Box Car.

Dave I just got the same caboose, and mine has 3211 stamped on the bottom.

mine is missing the light socket and hand rails

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Steamer,

David, Roger that, with a little bending his modification will definitely work.

Take a look at Chris's LED work on the AF lighted Caboose in the other thread, seriously cool stuff!  Going to due some thing similar when mine arrives, sometime this next week.  I intend to work on some engineering for the couplers on the AF to match the Lionel Box Couplers.  Might need a suggestion form you on the work.

PCRR/Dave 

FYI, tried the bending modification, didn’t work at all.  The adapter lifts off right the box coupler right away.  I might have some time to start work on the flyer caboose this weekend.

Steamer,

    The pick up on your Caboose is way different than mine, my AF Caboose has a shoe type slide pick up for the lighting.    The couplers on your Caboose maybe different than mine also.

PCRR/Dave

Mean while the Mini Caboose Collection is expanding. Ordered the Lighted Blue Comet Caboose like Chris has, they put the darn thing on back order, what a bummer!  It will be a good addition to the collection.  

As you can see Construction is still going on in the Train Room

yeah, yours has the Link couplers, and mine has the tab and slot.

On second thought, crimping the adapter to the Lionel side works just fine.  Needs a little refinement, but definitely in business for a couple bucks without changing the couplers and trucks on the 3211

John,

   It works buddy but we both definitely need to do some re-engineering if we continue running the AF Caboose behind the Lionel Tin.   Myself I have decide to look around for a nice AF Engine.  PaPa Steve posted a picture just recently of a serous old AF Steamer & Tender pulling some nice passenger cars, would really  like to pick up something like that!

Got to find out just exactly what that particular engine is!

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

 

 

Rob,

  I just picked up another Caboose, this one is an American Flyer pictured above on the tracks and below.  I believe it is a 3211 from the design of the Red Lighted Caboose, with it came an Aqua/ Orange Box Car. Neither have any AF Ident numbers on them, not even stamped in the Tin.  Can you give me the real AF Identification numbers on these 2 pieces of Rolling Stock and it would be nice to know when they were really built by AF.  

I figured you might be able to identify the age and number Idents for me.

I also asked PaPa Steve and others in a different post whether I can change out the old Incon light in this Red AF Caboose by simply removing the old bulb and inserting a LED like I do for some of old Lionel Rolling Stock, or will I need to rework the lines with resisters?

PCRR/Dave

American Flyer Caboose and Box Car.

Its the same body as a 3201 or 3211, but its from 39-40 after Flyer moved from Chicago.  Gilbert renumbered it to 411. You can do a direct replacement with 18v E10 screw base bulbs (get the 3k temperature)... try Hennings.

The short adapter looks a little better, buts still needs a little work.

Here’s a train to wrap your head around! Flyer with latch coupler pulling Lionel Mth remake, transitioned to flyer sand car and caboose!

John,

   Great job now that I can live with!  Seriously cool Train Set!  Having your child there to enjoy the trains with you makes all the difference in the world.  You sir are a very very lucky man.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John,

   Great job now that I can live with!  Seriously cool Train Set!  Having your child there to enjoy the trains with you makes all the difference in the world.  You sir are a very very lucky man.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave, the long shank adapter would have looked better if I changed where it was bent so that just the bulbous part was bent down.  I may still even make my own at some point.  I wish it would stay on the Lionel end without crimping.

Nothing a reshaped paper clip won’t fix 😱😱

Okay, 

time to take the plunge...

I started this thread because I didn’t care for the cupola on the Lionel tin cabooses, and found the AF 3211 based on input here.  So now its time to make it shiny and a little customized.  So first the easy part, taking things apart. I wish the roof just slid off like the Lionel models, but here we go.  

First just getting the body off isn’t bad.

lots of detail tabs to work on.  About a half hour later we have a giant pile of parts.

I plan on trying to polish things with some metal polish and a dremel tool, but I am open to any advice.  The portholes from the end look like different material- any thoughts?  I would definitely like to install some red led lights in these locations.

As to final color, I was planning on a fire-engine red.  Based on what was under the nameplates looks like I won’t be far off from the original.

Speaking off nameplates, I could use some advice on how to clean those up, particularly this on that appears to have been made off center. 

(Bottom left)

Now the frame will be more of a challenge.  It looks like everything is riveted together.  Before I start taking this apart, I love some advice on how to put it back together.  I don’t have a rivet press, so I would like to hear how others have approached working on this or something similar.  Here’s some photos of the chassis assembly.

All thoughts appreciated.

I was just looking at my 3211 today...thinking about all those tabs...wishing the same thing about the roof.

Steamer,

   Better be taking close notes on this restoration, you got to due your next!

John,

   I would send it to MartyF, let him sand blast, and due her up with some serious Red Paint!

Rob,

Thanks for the nice TIP on the LED's!

PCRR/Dave

Steamer want yours to be this good or better buddy!

Dave- The point this time is to try it myself!!

For the bright work that may be heavily tarnished (or even showing rust through the plating), I got the good idea from this forum to use the 0000 steel wool on them. Boy does that work good. Bought a box of parts approximating a Lionel Ives 1766 set of cars - all the plates were there but rough. The steel wool brought up the shine without taking away the painted letters.

Jim

John,

   Got to admit I like doing my own Tin Restoration also.  However the new Blue Comet 2817 Caboose arrived today so we put her on the Tracks with the rest of the 817's.  Got to admit I am glad Chis posted pictures of his, it is a great piece of Tin Plate Caboose.

PCRR/Dave

Fits right in with all the old 817's, seriously great Blue & Black Paint and nice lighting also.

Dave, I think you are starting to have a problem 

John,

   Yes Yes my name is Dave and I am addicted to Tin Plate Trains, started the program years ago, can't say it is doing much good however.

PCRR/Dave

Especially any 800 series Cabeese with 800 Series numbers on them!  Any size any Color even riding piggy back I love em all.  The 807 Caboose Piggy Backed on the 812 Gondola, don't know if Lionel actually planned for this to be able to happen or not, sure works well however.  Great colors for a Tin Plate Christmas Train too!

There is definitely a great need for aTin Plate Christmas Train in the new Train Room.

and my name is Dave and I also am addicted to tinplate.....

Gentlemen,

   Please remind me of which company supplies the AF electric light fixture for the under side of the AF 3211/444 Caboose.  I need to purchase one for my AF 444 Caboose, the light fixture piece in mine can not be fixed correctly.   I thought I remember somebody say it was Hennings.

PCRR/Dave

Port Line Hobby

Steamer,

   Thanks Dave, they are closed till after York however!

PCRR/Dave

Its a 411 caboose not a 444 just for clarification 

yeah I still need to order my hand rails and light for mine.

Rob,

  OK 411, some place I thought I remembered seeing 444.   411 will comply from this point forward.  What is the proper nomenclature for the light fixture portion on the 411 AF Caboose, I am trying to order one and would like the real name of this part

PCRR/Dave

I sent Port Lines an e mail with this pic and the model number of the caboose and said this what I need. Talked to Doug.

He gave me a price for the light and handrails, so I don't know what the light itself costs.

Steamer,

  Dave do you remember the actual name and number of the part?  

PCRR/Dave

I just asked for the light socket assembly

Steamer,

   Roger that, I just dropped Doug some e-mail and used similar terminology, hope he has a couple to sell me also.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

  OK 411, some place I thought I remembered seeing 444.   411 will comply from this point forward.  What is the proper nomenclature for the light fixture portion on the 411 AF Caboose, I am trying to order one and would like the real name of this part

PCRR/Dave

Removable lamp housing... something like that

Rob,

   Thanks much for the nomenclature, (Removable Lamp Housing), will use that terminology when talking about this piece of hardware and especially when ordering it.   Have a part number to go along with that terminology?

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

 Have a part number to go along with that terminology?

PCRR/Dave

 

Sorry Dave.  Ive no idea of the part number.  The same lamp housing was used in the streamline cars and the aluminum Zephyrs I do believe.

Why do you need to replace?  Did it come apart?  Sometimes they're hard to fit in the hole in the bottom of the car....is that the issue?

Rob,

  Old Wire broke off the removable Lamp Housing, would like a new housing with the wire affixed correctly, looks like the light socket that sits inside the Caboose was damaged long ago also, threads are distorted and it's hard to get the bulb in and out now.  Definitely want an LED replacement for this set up.

PCRR/Dave

hey Dave, how about posting a pic of your "removable lamp housing"....might be interested in it.

Thanks

Jim Waterman posted:

For the bright work that may be heavily tarnished (or even showing rust through the plating), I got the good idea from this forum to use the 0000 steel wool on them. Boy does that work good. Bought a box of parts approximating a Lionel Ives 1766 set of cars - all the plates were there but rough. The steel wool brought up the shine without taking away the painted letters.

Jim

Found out my local Ace hardware carries this stuff.  Guess I gotta get busy.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

  Old Wire broke off the removable Lamp Housing, would like a new housing with the wire affixed correctly, looks like the light socket that sits inside the Caboose was damaged long ago also, threads are distorted and it's hard to get the bulb in and out now.  Definitely want an LED replacement for this set up.

PCRR/Dave

Gotcha.  Probably best to try and repair ...the socket can be reformed and the wire can be soldered back.  Done it many times.

Rob,

   I would like to purchase the Removeable Lamp Housing like Steamer received from Doug at Port Line, with the wire attachment set up, Dave shows in his post.  That Removable Lamp Housing looks like a nice piece of engineering that can be reused many times.

PCRR/Dave

The spring loaded wire attachment looks similar to the old Lionel Lock on set ups.  Easy and reusable.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

   I would like to purchase the Removeable Lamp Housing like Steamer received from Doug at Port Line, with the wire attachment set up, Dave shows in his post.  That Removable Lamp Housing looks like a nice piece of engineering that can be reused many times.

PCRR/Dave

The spring loaded wire attachment looks similar to the old Lionel Lock on set ups.  Easy and reusable.

Understand Dave.  The spring clip is called a "Fahnestock" clip and flyer used then extensively.

Rob,

   Thanks much for the Nomenclature and the knowledge of the AF "Fahnestock" Clip.

All the best, 

Pine Creek/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

   I would like to purchase the Removeable Lamp Housing like Steamer received from Doug at Port Line, with the wire attachment set up, Dave shows in his post.  That Removable Lamp Housing looks like a nice piece of engineering that can be reused many times.

PCRR/Dave

The spring loaded wire attachment looks similar to the old Lionel Lock on set ups.  Easy and reusable.

I haven't got mine yet...that was a pic from the bay

Steamer,

   Dave OOPS, thought that was what you received from Doug, my bad!

At any rate, that is exactly what I need for my AF Caboose! 

Will Take a picture of the removable Lamp Housing on my AF 411 Caboose shortly.  Mine has no "Fahnestock" Clip on it.

PCRR/Dave

John,

Completed the final assembly of the Black and Gold 817 restoration today, I am very satisfied with the final out come.    

PCRR/Dave

Other than the final wipe down she is complete, will take some better pictures when she is on the tracks with the 817 Consist.

Steamer,

   Dave here are a couple pictures of my AF Removable Lamp Housing.

PCRR/Dave

if you're not going to re use it, I'll take it off your hands....

Steamer,

   I am going to try to fix it, however when the one I ordered comes in, and I get it to work in my AF Caboose, if you need the original, I will let you have it.

PCRR/Dave

that's OK Dave, I'll buy a new one, just sounded like you may have been just tossing your old one. 

Steamer,

   Throw something away from my Tin Plate Trains, you must have me confused with some other mysterian soul!

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John,

Completed the final assembly of the Black and Gold 817 restoration today, I am very satisfied with the final out come.    

PCRR/Dave

Other than the final wipe down she is complete, will take some better pictures when she is on the tracks with the 817 Consist.

 

Dave,

 You should be proud of how it came out! Very nice.

Tom 

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Steamer,

   Throw something away from my Tin Plate Trains, you must have me confused with some other mysterian soul!

PCRR/Dave

sorry Dave...it musts been the paint fumes I was breathing Saturday....

Tom,

   Thanks much buddy, however your 517 is the Show Steeler, very serious B&G Caboose!

Steamer,

Dave I get that way sometimes myself without the Paint fumes help!  As I tell my wife all Double Guns, Bird Dogs and Tin Plate Trains do not fall under her prevue, if you want to throw something out, start looking in your Music Room!  I keep reminding her of the Disco Ball she has, and have threatened to use it in the New Train Room!  Heck does't everybody have heir own mirror glass ball for putting on musicals!

These are House rules, that shall not be violated under any circumstances.

So tonight I started cleaning the trim from my flyer 3211.  Based on advice from others here I tried 0000 steel wool. The results are some what mixed.  The process is slow and tedious- two of my least favorite things.  The name plates and grab irons look great.  The window frame dark corrosion came of, but the current surface is a different shade and still inconsistent in appearance.  The ladder cleaned up okay but not great.  All these parts are hard to hang onto, making them painful on the fingers in short order!

Here are some side by side pictures.

Steamer posted:

Dave I just got the same caboose, and mine has 3211 stamped on the bottom.

mine is missing the light socket and hand rails

Hi Dave,

Mine was missing the light socket too. There is one for sale on eBay for like $15! I refused to spend that much on a caboose that cost me $11. I had one of those plastic E10 light sockets from Radio Shack laying around. It looked like this:

I removed the screws, nuts and bulb base from the plastic. I was able to mount it to the frame in the same bulb location and add one wire. I bent one tab up a little to avoid a short. It worked great!

George

I agree! and I gave $5 for mine.

Steamer posted:

I agree! and I gave $5 for mine.

Mine has handrails. 

well we took ours off to keep unwanted riders off......

jhz563 posted:

So tonight I started cleaning the trim from my flyer 3211.  Based on advice from others here I tried 0000 steel wool. The results are some what mixed.  The process is slow and tedious- two of my least favorite things.  The name plates and grab irons look great.  The window frame dark corrosion came of, but the current surface is a different shade and still inconsistent in appearance.  The ladder cleaned up okay but not great.  All these parts are hard to hang onto, making them painful on the fingers in short order!

Here are some side by side pictures.

Flyer trim can be a bit of a mixed bag. Some are brass, some are brass plated tin. The plated ones won’t take much cleaning before you reach the tin.

Steve

I painted the ladders and window trim on my 3211 gold because of the same thing.

I have started back up on my 3211 project.  I went hog wild and drilled out the rivets holding the trucks and end handrails on.  Has anyone put these back together just using tiny screws? 

Btw, If things work out right, mine will be very custom when complete, like no other 3211 out there!

jhz563 posted:

I have started back up on my 3211 project.  I went hog wild and drilled out the rivets holding the trucks and end handrails on.  Has anyone put these back together just using tiny screws? 

Btw, If things work out right, mine will be very custom when complete, like no other 3211 out there!

Jeff Kane has rivets, Train Tender or small screws and nuts would also work fine, maybe use a small crush tube in the hole so you can tighten the screw and nut without binding the truck.

I've used nuts and bolts with washers between the truck frame and car frame, works fine. A double nut, or a drop of lock tite or super glue to keep the nut from backing off.