TIU power question

While you're post is a bit confusing, it sounds as if your two engines are what's losing their settings, not the TIU or the remote. The DCS components aren't capable of losing settings for any reason other than if you actually change something.

You don't say which engine you have or if they're PS2 or PS3. If they're PS2, they each have a battery, the type of which is dictated by their age.

My guess is that the batteries in your PS2 engines need to be recharged or replaced. If so, each time that you power down an engine and power it back up, none of the engine's settings, including it's DCS ID#, that were set in the last operating session are present. This can cause you, perhaps, to also have to delete and re-add the engine to the remote.

You can test a PS2 engine's battery as described on page 167 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition: 

The most effective battery check for a battery that's installed in a PS2 engine is to first start the engine up, making sounds, in either DCS or conventional mode. Then, immediately turn off power to the tracks. If engine sounds do not continue for 6-7 seconds after power is turned off, the battery needs to be charged.

This and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

when I power back up I have lost all settings to run the engines (2) and have to reset sound volume, speed limit etc.

Sounds to me like a  engine battery problem.... If the battery is up to par,the engine should retain  the settings you've selected. ( battery test.... engine  sounds should continue on for at least 6 or 7 seconds after track power is turn off.)

Speed is a different story  , If you  shut off the tiu and not the remote  and the remotes shows an engine at a certain speed  nothing probably is  going to happen when you again power up the tiu.,  you might as while scroll down the speed before turning off the remote.

Yep you'll have to restart the engine on power up.

Thanks for the help and response. Here is a long explanation of  my system and issues. The first engine is a 2 year old MTH NYC P-47 #4928 PS3 purchased around Christmas and ran for about 2 to 3 weeks and stored each year. It powers up and shuts down ok with shut down sequence working. The other is a MTH  AMTK F40PH #401 purchased today. My DCS system is a WIU and TIU purchased Dec. 22 last year with the TIU being replaced by the local train store due to a problem of not being able to connect with an new AIU purchased on the 9th of this month. So the TIU is new as well as the AIU. Power supply is a Z1000. TIU is being powered through the #1 fixed voltage input. WIU has the latest firmware as of 2 days ago, TIU also updated to 6.01 at the same time. Premium app installed on my Ipad on 12/9/2017. Track is Fastrak and I have 4 power tracks in star config and proper polarity around a 7'x7' oval with an inner and outer turnout to allow me to run both trains at the same time. What I am experiencing is occasionally the the P-47 will not respond to one or more commands, ie, whistle, speed control or headlight, sometimes all, other times just one or two commands. I can refresh the engine run screen sometimes and that fixes or sometimes I have to delete the engine and re add it to fix the lack of control. I have experienced some of the problems with the AMTK today also, ie, no speed control or no horn. It also appears that when I shut down the power and turn it back on that that's when I have to reconfig all of the setting ie, speed limit, eng. volume, horn, etc. all the variables for each engine. Sometimes when I try to switch engine control from one to the other, I can't control that engine without reactivating or delete and add it.   I am about 10 ft from the WIU with my Ipad a the furthest. Are there updates to the DCS app that I need to download for fix this? As I said I purchased and installed the DCS premium software last week. Track has been thoroughly cleaned with 91% alcohol and microfiber cloth. Is these issuses all operator error? I am only turning the main power off which supplies the transformer and WIU after I have shut down the engines via the Ipad. Barry, I have your WIFI Companion but have only read enough to wire the AIU and upgrade the TIU and WIU. Hope my explanations of my problem is not too confusing, it is frustrating to have to reset the engine settings each time I run the trains. Ipad is fully charged and is an Ipad II. Another question, is it better to power the TIU from separate power supply? Now the track stays hot which leaves the caboose and passenger car lights on all the time since the z1000 is always on when I turn on the 120v power strip. Sorry is I'm asking too many questions or too much detail.

Thanks 54dodge

Good luck... I can't help you anymore. I'm strictly a dcs remote person...

Thank Gregg, I have finally come to the realization that before I post a bunch more about my problems, I should read the manual from Barry that I purchased and try to figure out what and if I may be doing something wrong, especially being an "almost low tech" OLD newbie.

54dodge posted:

TThe other is a MTH  AMTK F40PH #401 purchased today.

Thanks 54dodge

edit: https://mthtrains.com/30-4246-1

thanks!

After trying the things posted above, can you do a signal test with each engine?

then, Can you remove all the cars with lights and retest for control and do a signal test running just the 2 engines?

Engineer Joe, The set is the MTH 30-4246-1 RTR Cab #401 Amtrak 3 car set, new for 2017. My dealer just got it in today from MTH. I will try that tomorrow. I just started and ran both trains at the same time, the P-47 volume was set at about mid range and seemed very low, barely audible, tried to turn it up and finally did a reset and it went to 100% then I could adjust it again with the DCS volume slide control in the settings screen. Just another??? Need to really read Barry's DCS WIFI manual before I get to wound up with what may be my inexperience.

Thanks

54dodge

From what you describe, the issues sound mostly like wiring or track topology problems causing weak signal strength.

However, you can rule out TIU issues if you can get DCS signal strength readings of 10's with stationary engines on a short test track connected to a TIU channel.

54Dodge, from everything you've described, track signaling could be the culprit.  To start, take everything off the track and put one of the engines (only) back on the track and do a track signal test.  The track signal test can be found in the list of features we call softkeys.  Just tap the center tab with the grid on it from the engine control screen and scroll down.  Do this test for each engine on each loop of track.  Then, repeat this using the other engine again, on both tracks.  Report your findings here.

Another potential cause could be in some other communication link.  Keep in mind, the app talks to the WIU (maybe through a router adding another link).  The WIU talks to to the TIU.  The TIU talks to the train.  Then, the train talks back through the same links.  The breakdown can be in any of these  areas.  How is your WIU connected to the TIU?  If you are using a USB cable, that should be fine.  If you're using a serial to USB adapter required for older TIUs, it may not be fully compatible. 

Another question is how are you connected via Wi-Fi?  Are you using the MTH network or your home network?  If you're on your home network, try switching to the MTH network and connect that way.  This eliminates your home network.

When someone is having the issues you are, the most effective approach to troubleshooting is simplify everything you can.  Take everything down to the most basic form and eliminate as many variables as possible.  

Do you have a DCS remote?  Is everything fine when you run the engines with the remote?  

To close, there is absolutely no reason you should not have essentially perfect performance on your layout.  Work with it and we'll get your issues straightened out.  

I have finished the signal test, the three loops all read 10 with both engines. The when I tested with the F40PH engine, of course I disconnected track power first and placed the engine on the track, I did that for each loop. The F40PH kept it's control settings as I started it and tested and didn't appear to drop any functions. I did the same test for the P-47 and the track signal for each loop was again 10. The P-47 however lost all command functions when I started it up and I had to reset it to regain control. Again, I cleaned the track today before starting the test and cleaned all of the wheels and contacts. I am running on the home internet with a high speed dual channel gaming type wifi router. I will try the MTH wifi to see if there is a difference. I do not have a DCS remote. I did notice that the F40PH has no problem running across and set of back to back manual Fastrack switches, the passenger car lights to flicker as they run through though. The P-47 has a hesitation as it crosses each of the two switches (shorter distance between engine power pickups?) and the caboose light flickers when it runs across any switch. I guess the signal can get scrambled going across those switches. How can I fix that switch contact problem? I also had the usb to usb cable connecting the WIU and TIU units.

Thanks

54dodge

 How long do  engine(p 47) sounds continue on after track power is shut off?  This could be a battery problem.

Proto-2 and 3 engines carry on with the last command given in the event of  signal  failure. The battery helps with hesitation to a small degree.

The P-47 has a hesitation as it crosses each of the two switches (shorter distance between engine power pickups?) and the caboose light flickers when it runs across any switch. I guess the signal can get scrambled going across those switches. How can I fix that switch contact problem?

That's not really a meaningful indication of something that needs fixing. However, you can possibly replace any single roller pickups on engines with dual; pickup roller assemblies, if the dual ones will fit.

Your test results seem to indicate an intermittent problem with the P-47 and not your layout.  It doesn't get any better than signals of 10 everywhere in terms DCS performance.  The P-47 could have bad super caps or an intermittent connection to them.  It appears the engine receives the DCS signals however, just doesn't remember them through power cycles.  This is most often a battery/cap issue.  The engine needs power to write settings after track power is removed.

I would now work with confirming this engine is reliable or not.  Maybe run it on a friends layout to see if it does the same thing?  You could also have our service guys take a look at it.  I'll talk with them and see if there are any suggestions for things you can check yourself.

Unfortunately, I seem to be the newbie loner where I live so far, I haven't run into anyone else with an O gauge set up to test run my engines. I think I could probably ask the local model train store to see if they would run my P-47 on their store display layout. They do have a test track but it is only about 4' long, not enough to see what's going on. That may not be necessary due to some observations today. I finally got a chance to switch from my home wifi which I think may be part of the culprit. Yesterday I was running the layout with both my P-47 and my new 401 and twice while walking in front of my "control board" my DCS on my Ipad gave the a lost internet connection error. My wifi router is in another room and the signal has to go through a couple of walls and there is some hvac duct work that may be in the way blocking signal also. I switched over to the MTS wifi today and ran the layout and I am still having some problems.

First, the P-47 only hesitates going over a couple of the switches if it is running below approx. 30 smph, at around 30 and above, it runs smooth. Second, both the P-47 and the 401 loose their operating sounds intermittently and and if I reduce speed they will pick up their sound again then loose it again after a lap or two and again if I decrease the speed it will recover. The P-47 will also pick up it's sound if it happens to hesitate at a switch. I think the hesitation, almost like it bucks, is part mechanical as the wheels hit the switch and some electrical also. I noticed the passenger cars on the 401 don't flicker if I'm running around 30 smph also. I am going to pull the switches out and check the pins on them next. I did notice that the sound outage is more prevalent at one or two points on the track. So it appears that the track may be most of my problems besides the home wifi weak signal.

I decided to take some of the track apart where I seem to loose the sound and solder the rail crimps and the pins together with jumpers on the underside. I think the small sections ie, the 1 3/8, 1 3/4? and 4 and 5" sections had very loose pins no jumpers between the outer rails on the shortest sections. I am running Fastrack some new in the last two weeks and some 3 to 4 years old. All cleaned again today before testing. All engine wheels and pickups cleaned a few days ago.

Thanks again for all of your input. I'm starting to understand and sort things out with your suggestions.

54dodge

I think you are on to it...i've had flawless running engines except when over switches at slow speeds...testing running engines in the dark with my nose at the switches...revealed quite the light show...keep us posted

54Dodge,

   You were exactly right when you said you needed to go back and read Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion, it will clear up most of your problems, and I definitely recommend you use Aux power to run your TIU.  Make sure the Red wire from you TIU is connected to the middle Rail the Black to the outside rail, if you are using an old ZW or KW type transformer, put 10 Amp resettable breakers between the Transformer and your TIU to safe guard your layout.

Slow down and build everything correctly as you read Barry's book and eliminate your problems.  If you are a visual learner, pick up a copy of the OGR Video Guide to DCS, it gives a visual learning experience for the DCS beginner, Rich Melvin did a great job with it.

Make sure your P2 engines have a new Battery or a BCR your P3's have their own built in BCR type engineering.  

Check every thing as you build and build in blocks.

PCRR/Dave

I have to think this through - but one possibility is DCS signal interference from the FasTrack switches. This is a known issue, but examples solved so far have only been local areas and not the whole layout. It depends on your track configuration.

"Track is Fastrak and I have 4 power tracks in star config and proper polarity around a 7'x7' oval with an inner and outer turnout to allow me to run both trains at the same time." quoted from your post above.

The solution is to replace the track power jumper on the switch with a choke which filters the interference created by the switch electronics. You can order the choke from Digikey here

A method to test this is to remove the track power jumper from the switches and run the layout, power down and then power up the layout and determine if you still have communication with the engines.

edit: If they are manual switches this is not necessary, but if the turnouts join the two loops then see below.

Possiblility #2

A second problem that could exist is that you don't have the DCS signal blocks properly isolated. The length of a loop on a 7' x 7' table would only need two blocks per loop.

Two 5" Block tracks (Lionel 6-12060) would be needed or two 1 3/8" tracks at 180° apart with the center rail jumper wire removed to create two DCS signal blocks per loop. One terminal for the center rail would be used on each block track.

Using the terminal tracks creates power and signal input points, but does not create a power/signal block as there are no isolation points to separate them.

A quick test for this solution would be to disconnect all but one power/signal feed for the entire layout or one power/signal feed per loop if the loops have the center rail isolated.

Sketch your layout on paper and post a photo of the sketch.

We can help by showing you where you need isolation tracks to create the blocks. edit: this would really help to confirm the layout signal basics are proper

I believe that these two situations with the track and wiring configuration are a strong possibility of the source of the problem. The chokes for the switches are definitely needed and you may be affecting the signal by not having the block between the terminal tracks center rail isolated. A simple example is attached.

I don't have any power/signal blocks, I have the power terminal tracks just plugged in the loops and everything is continuous. Being new to this, I "assumed" that one just connects power and go. Never realized that it starts to get a little more complicated than plug and play.

Ok, there could be some track connection issues combined with the lack of isolated blocks.

You should get barry's book if you are going to operate with DCS - https://mthtrains.com/DCS_Companion

Let's focus on track continuity first - in the areas that you marked "most signal loss area" , disassemble the track and try this on the track connectors Fastrack continuity testing and fix  or simply reassemble the tracks in a different order to help with joiner contact in the two trouble areas.

Then, try just one set of wires directly from the TIU to the one terminal track for the entire layout and test an engine.

I don't want to muddy things, so these are the layout questions -

1. Are all of the switches manual?
2. If no, where are the remote switches
3. Give me detail of the track on both corners that avoid obstacles - I don't know what a 3? corner is

I'll recreate your layout and place 1 3/8" tracks or 5" block tracks in and fit the layout to create the isolated blocks for you. Here is what I have from your drawing:

Carl, where he indicates 3" curves, I assume he means the smaller 11.25° O36 curve pieces.

Carl, thank you for your help. How do you generate the track layout drawing you posted? My layout sketch was just a rough one. Since the tracks snake around the Christmas tree and a floor register, I just sketched up something similar to my layout. I will sit down and catalog all of the track pieces ie, curves, switches, straights and short sections and mark those on a sketch in their order. I will try the disconnect of the power tracks and run the engines as you suggested. It may take me another day or so, our 49th wedding anniversary today is taking precedent over everything else I'm  trying to get done. To answer another question, yes the smaller curves are the 036 short sections.

Congratulations on the anniversary! That took a lot to make that happen.

I have layout design software and have worked on enough designs to be able to guess closely from a line drawing or a photo.

I am hoping it is as simple as a few bad track connections is the areas you've identified.

Taking the power/DCS back to it's simplest form is the way to learn.

Perhaps the bride will treat you to Barry's book as a gift.

Everything but the track connection problem is there to be able to run a layout reliably.

We can get you there. A coupe of gremlins decided to visit you. What you have should work.

  Celebrate the day and enjoy!

Carl, the bride said buy what I want (ha! ha!) but I will get the book or the digital version. The local train shop only had the Wifi book and the 2nd DCS edition. I'll order on line. Attached is a better albeit still crude sketch but shows the all of the track sections.

Thanks,

54Dodge

Thanks, I'll see what I can create.

I still suspect a track connection issue first and a signal issue second. Test what I suggested. It may run plug'n'play like it should.

it shouldn't take long - mix up the order of the tracks in the bad section and disconnect two of the hot wire power feeds. The commons(black or U can stay)

Ok,

here's what I built. I can use you drawing as a background image and build from that. If your drawing is accurate, there some force fit areas. You can see by the misalignment. I also came short on the left inner loop.

I would suggest the you take to S out of the top right where your are avoiding an obstacle and just take a direct angle.

I'll refit it and if you are ok with that, I 'll create the isolated blocks.

Here's a refit - you can see 3 arrows where there is about an 1/8" lateral misalignment. They'll go together just fine. Smoothed out the corner at the top right.

Tried to keep the small piece count down, but the angles create some odd lengths.

If you are working with what you have, try to fix some of the force fits.

If you like this, I'll layout the blocks and power feeds or I can rearrange them on your current as- built.

Just thinking, this may be the quickest fix - move the terminal track from the left hand side to the top center and the 10" to the left side.

Carl, I did remove the other power strips and left just one at the bottom center, the trains ran the same and had the same issue with sound drop out. One spot is the outside track left switch area on both sides of that switch, the other is very seldom but the right switch outside switch also. If you have the time, I will try your layout. I did a continuity check before running last night and all track sections had continuity between connections.

Thanks Carl, for all of your work and suggestions. I have ordered Barry's DCS Companion 3rd edition.

Larry

54Dodge

54dodge posted:

Carl, I did remove the other power strips and left just one at the bottom center, the trains ran the same and had the same issue with sound drop out. One spot is the outside track left switch area on both sides of that switch, the other is very seldom but the right switch outside switch also. If you have the time, I will try your layout. I did a continuity check before running last night and all track sections had continuity between connections.

Thanks Carl, for all of your work and suggestions. I have ordered Barry's DCS Companion 3rd edition.

Larry

54Dodge

Are those manual switches?

yes at present, will replace with electric when my wallet gets bigger, LOL.

54dodge posted:

yes at present, will replace with electric when my wallet gets bigger, LOL.

 

Sometimes a manual switch is a better choice.  I was asking to determine what kind of switch we were working on. I want to check something on one that I have. Sometimes, the center rail connections are a little loose on powered switches, but I have never looked at a manual.

If you have a extra 10", you could take the switch out a make a run on the outside loop and observe if you get a signal issues in that area.

I will try the straight track. Also need to add a power supply for the tiu instead of power off the wiu

Carl and all.

Sorry I haven't gotten back about the layout. Everything runs ok, still some features drop out ie; sound and smoke but the engines run. With Christmas over, the layout has been packed away until I start the permanent layout later this summer. Going back to surgeon to have a Titanium plate installed because my sternum didn't fuse after bypass surgery so, it will be a while before I can lift anything over 5 lbs and that puts a halt to building the layout table till end of April to mid May. I'll get there. I plan on jumpering all the track together after setup and trial. I'm hoping that will solve the signal issues. Not much to do now but wait. Thanks for all the help and I'll probably have a lot of questions yet as I progress on the build.

54Dodge