TMCC: Can there be TOO MUCH added antenna/ground plane wire?

Phil, I think the answer to your question is yes, but it's not a function of antenna or ground plane. My layout has over 3000 feet of track, and I was having terrible signal issues. I worked with Dale Manquen, and he sent me one of his signal boosters, which cleared up most of the problems. There are still a few stubborn spots where some engines don't want to run, but most make it around the layout. Unfortunately, with Dale's passing, I don't know if anyone can supply such a signal booster.

GunrunnerJohn may be able to pick up the ball on this.

Dale's signal booster performed very well at the P & P club layout in Scottsdale, AZ.  We hope someone can duplicate Dale's work and produce a signal booster for sale.

If you go the LCS way, the SER2 is a booster

"If you go the LCS way, the SER2 is a booster"   Chuck:  'Sorry for being a bit dense, but i don't know what these 2 abbreviations mean....Is it something I could try?

It's the new Legacy with the options to control the Legacy with an iPad or iPhone which has modules for different purposes that are daisy chained together. One is a module that runs serial port connected devices and is Lionel's answer to driving more serial devices when using the Legacy base and system.

I have a prototype booster in hand, but I haven't tried to reverse-engineer it yet.  I was actually working with Dale, and he was going to send me the documentation, schematics, BOM, etc. and I was going to lay out the PCB.  Sadly, that never happened, I was in touch with him a few weeks before his passing to make the arrangements but I never heard from him again, obviously we all know why now.

I also had to ask a fellow club member what LCS and SER2 were.  I was informed "installation and testing on our layout is ongoing in multiple areas".  I get the sense that LCS / SER2 may improve signal performance if we are using a phone or tablet only.   I happen to like my Legacy controller.

John, is Dale's booster the only current way we know of to boost the signal for Legacy controller use?

Thanks,  Dave

John I would be very interested if you could reverse  engineer the module that Dale was working on, since I have a few bad areas on my layout.  Would you expect communication to be better using wifi and phone?  The signal still has to go through the command base.

Thanks Marty

Using LCS or a WiFi app will not improve the signal between the base and engine.  You also will not have any better Cab2 to base communication.     You will have good communication between the app and the base especially when connected via a decent router. That of course is base on your signal. 

Like Marty says, there is nothing other than the command base involved in the track signal generation, so none of those other factors will have any effect on the track signal.

The way the prototype is wired, it's going to take a little time to unwind, and I haven't allocated the time yet.  I was anticipating just taking a schematic and parts list and doing a PCB, I wasn't counting on having to reverse engineer the buffer. 

It's going to end up being a multi-step process.

Once I have a schematic and parts list, I'm going to have to order boards and hand build a prototype.  Only after the prototype is tested will I be able to go to a larger build.

GRJ,

I would be in for one of these if you can reverse engineer it......  Please keep us posted...

Thanks,

Me, too, GRJ....Naturally!           Also, what's your opinion re:  My original Q:  Can there be too many 'ground wires'?  If so, I guess there must be a layout-dependent optimum.

Hey #DaveOlson is Lionel still thinking about a signal test car?  It was mentioned at a few Legacy meetings ago. 

I suppose there "could" be too much ground plane, but I haven't heard of anyone going that far.

I would suspect that the determining factor would be the capacitance between the ground plane (pin 5 on the base, I believe) and the outside rail (binding post on the base.) When the connected capacitance becomes too great excessive current would flow, causing a voltage drop through the source impedance of the base. If the output circuit of the base is some sort of L-C filter I suppose excessive capacitance could detune it but I don't have any factual information about the design of the base circuitry.

I only have a Base-1L, but if I get bored later in the weekend I may see what happens to the signal voltage as I apply various values of capacitance to the output. 

Edit 9:30 AM EDT

I was just poking around Dale Manquen's Trainfacts website. If you search for "Troubleshooting at the Dumont Museum," Dale offers a few comments about having indeed found excessive ground plane and the effects thereof.

YIKES!  It just dawned on me that there are 'miles' of wire that [can] carry the CB output with or without extra added ground wire on the layout.  ALL of the ground & neutral wires in the entire house [and train room building in my case]  are carrying  [or trying to carry] the CB's output.   This seems to reduce the relevance of my original Q!!

Phil, that's one of the underpinnings of the TMCC design.  The original intent was that the house ground wiring would be the radiator for the over-the-air part of the TMCC signal.

Understood, John.  But my point is that MOST of the wires doing the radiating are NOT in the train room.  The added ground wires in the train room are probably just a fraction of the total....

MartyE posted:

Hey #DaveOlson is Lionel still thinking about a signal test car?  It was mentioned at a few Legacy meetings ago. 

 

Marty, I'm not sure how much of a market there would be for such a car. It really only comes into play with large or complicated layouts. With the help and instructions of people here on the forum, I built such a test car using an R2LC, a cheap multi meter, and a couple electronic components, total cost: about $50, 40 of which was the R2LC.

The conversation gets a little lengthy, but all the info starts here.