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Need some help with TMCC engine and I am hoping to tap into some expertise.  I have a 18193 which is the unpowered f-3 in the Western Pacific set.  This unit has all tmcc functions but is not powered.  Manufactured 1998.  At this point,  it doesn't respond to any tmcc functions.  Horn and bell work in conventional.  Now the puzzler, when I put it in program mode and hit the set I get sounds. If I leave it in program, I get sounds.  I tried replacing the receiver board no change.  Any ideas?   

Thanks

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Just ran in TMCC.  Both engines are programed with the same number.  The coupler and horn don't respond. The light is on. the sound came on and the bell was ringing.  Could not turn bell off.  Tried changing momentum and horn blew and light was flashing. Sound was off.  I am using Legacy Cab2 if that makes any difference.  Bottom line I never know what will happen  in TMCC.  Any ideas.  Guess I could pull the sound board and swap with B unit but I think something else is going on here.

Thanks for your help.

Your F3 set is from the same era as my Milwaukee F3 AB, 6-18140, that I had TMCC and sound issues with. I reported it here but never got any answers.

6-18140 TMCC issues

I ended up replacing both boards (sound and receiver/tmcc) in the B unit and that corrected my problems except for:

B unit coupler doesn't operate

B unit back up light is on all the time

And yes I did a reset function multiple times but it didn't fix anything. I have all the "Lionel Parts Lists and Exploded Diagrams" published during that time frame. Supplement 43 has my Milw 6-18140 in it but there is no overall wiring diagram of the B unit included. So I can't determine if the coupler or back up light is connected properly in the wiring harnesses.

I'm beginning to think those old sound RS boards and tmcc boards deteriorate with age and there's not much that can be done about it.

Ken

 

 

Last edited by Hotbox

John,

It is a LCRX, Lionel part # 610-8124-110. I'm not sure how that compares to an R2LC. Did some more searching in the supplements and found a overall wiring diagram using the LCRX that should be similar to my setup in the Milw dummy B unit 6-18139. The diagram is for a 601-8133-000 NP B unit and is in Supplement 38, S38:2-3 (C-63-3). Of course they don't give actual pinouts (ie pin # and what it's function is) for the LCRX but they show what the pins that are used go to in the B unit. I'll check it out when I get a chance and perhaps post a reply to my original post on this issue.

Ken

Ken,

I can confirm John's comments that the LCRX and RailSounds 2.5 boards are pretty stable animals.

I note that you said you've done a reset/restore of these boards, but unfortunately, neither board has that function.

Two questions for you:

1) You state that the back-up light stays on all the time. Can you turn the light off with the AUX2 button, or perhaps with the AUX1-8 and AUX1-9 commands?

2) Which version of the LCRX do you have -- the one with the two white connectors along the bottom edge for the couplers plus a bunch of stick-pins, or the one with all stick-pins and no white connectors for the couplers?

TRW

TRW

I'll look into 1) tomorrow.

For 2):

The replacement LCRX I have is the one without the two white connectors, just pins. The original one in the unit had the two white connectors. If you go to the Lionel website and do a parts search for the 6-18139 parts listing, the diagram showing all the parts shows the original that came with the B unit. It's a small image but you can see the two white connector blocks. It is item #17. If you click on the item 17 camera icon, you will see a picture of the one Lionel sent to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the pins on both are not identical in functionality but I don't have schematics for the boards or a functional description of what signal, pwr, gnd, or whatever is on each pin.

When I installed the replacement, I could successfully load an ID number into the B unit and the ID number would be there after I removed the power and then restored power much later. Couldn't do that with the original LCRX. See the link to my original post above in my first post to this thread.

Ken

 

 

Last edited by Hotbox

OK here is where I stand today.

Fixed the backup light problem. Whoever owned the diesels previously, had somehow placed the backup light lead on pin 3 on the upper right connector. I moved it to pin F on the lower right connector. Refer to Johns LCRX diagram above or the schematic I referenced in Supplement 38, page S38:2-3. Both diagrams have the backup light lead on pin F. I placed the coupler 2 lead connector on pins C & D. That would be equivalent to the "R" coupler two pin connection point on John's diagram. My B unit (rear) coupler still doesn't work. You don't get the buzz sound that energizes the coupler solenoid but I do get the railsounds swooosh. Checked the coupler leads for continuity. I'm reading about 8 ohms which I guess is about right for the coupler coil. 

My LCRX board is slightly different than the original. I would post hi-rez photos here but don't want to go through the bother of getting a web hosting site to hold my photos. So here is a link to the LCRX board I got from Lionel recently. My only concern is that I'm not sure pin C is ground and pin D gets the voltage pulse to energize the coupler.

LCRX link   You have to press the item 17 photo icon to see the current LCRX board I have. I couldn't get the OGR link function to go there directly, possibly because the url was a mile long!

I believe we have inadvertently hijacked Art Lites thread. Didn't mean to do that, but we both have similar problems with the RS and TMCC functions. Art, if you want me to move the discussion for my problem over to my original post just say so. Otherwise I'll keep posting here to keep everything together.

Ken

Last edited by Hotbox
Hotbox posted:

OK here is where I stand today.

My LCRX board is slightly different than the original. I would post hi-rez photos here but don't want to go through the bother of getting a web hosting site to hold my photos. So here is a link to the LCRX board I got from Lionel recently. My only concern is that I'm not sure pin C is ground and pin D gets the voltage pulse to energize the coupler.

Ken

Can't you just post the image here and have the OGR Forum host it?

I really dislike posts with linked images as many are no longer available when you go to an old thead.

BobbyD posted:
Hotbox posted:

OK here is where I stand today.

My LCRX board is slightly different than the original. I would post hi-rez photos here but don't want to go through the bother of getting a web hosting site to hold my photos. So here is a link to the LCRX board I got from Lionel recently. My only concern is that I'm not sure pin C is ground and pin D gets the voltage pulse to energize the coupler.

Ken

Can't you just post the image here and have the OGR Forum host it?

I really dislike posts with linked images as many are no longer available when you go to an old thead.

I did a quick search and couldn't find anything about posting directly so I didn't try. I'm used to posting on an RC plane forum, RCGroups, and post/send photos directly from my PC to that forum. Searched again and found this:

Photos..

Ken

Last edited by Hotbox
Hotbox posted:

OK here is where I stand today.

Fixed the backup light problem. Whoever owned the diesels previously, had somehow placed the backup light lead on pin 3 on the upper right connector. I moved it to pin F on the lower right connector. Refer to Johns LCRX diagram above or the schematic I referenced in Supplement 38, page S38:2-3. Both diagrams have the backup light lead on pin F. I placed the coupler 2 lead connector on pins C & D. That would be equivalent to the "R" coupler two pin connection point on John's diagram. My B unit (rear) coupler still doesn't work. You don't get the buzz sound that energizes the coupler solenoid but I do get the railsounds swooosh. Checked the coupler leads for continuity. I'm reading about 8 ohms which I guess is about right for the coupler coil. 

My LCRX board is slightly different than the original. I would post hi-rez photos here but don't want to go through the bother of getting a web hosting site to hold my photos. So here is a link to the LCRX board I got from Lionel recently. My only concern is that I'm not sure pin C is ground and pin D gets the voltage pulse to energize the coupler.

LCRX link   You have to press the item 17 photo icon to see the current LCRX board I have. I couldn't get the OGR link function to go there directly, possibly because the url was a mile long!

I believe we have inadvertently hijacked Art Lites thread. Didn't mean to do that, but we both have similar problems with the RS and TMCC functions. Art, if you want me to move the discussion for my problem over to my original post just say so. Otherwise I'll keep posting here to keep everything together.

Ken

OK, I read the directions for posting photos...here is a picture of the old (upper) and new (lower) LCRX boards...right click on image than select Open link in new tab...get huge hi-rez picture!IMG_2957

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Images (1)
  • IMG_2957: LCRX boards
Last edited by Hotbox
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Does this help any?

While it's better than nothing, it's the wrong version of the board and also the wrong wiring configuration.

Hotbox posted:

Fixed the backup light problem. Whoever owned the diesels previously, had somehow placed the backup light lead on pin 3 on the upper right connector. I moved it to pin F on the lower right connector. Refer to Johns LCRX diagram above or the schematic I referenced in Supplement 38, page S38:2-3. Both diagrams have the backup light lead on pin F. I placed the coupler 2 lead connector on pins C & D. That would be equivalent to the "R" coupler two pin connection point on John's diagram. My B unit (rear) coupler still doesn't work. You don't get the buzz sound that energizes the coupler solenoid but I do get the railsounds swooosh. Checked the coupler leads for continuity. I'm reading about 8 ohms which I guess is about right for the coupler coil.

Glad to hear the light has been fixed.

Your other problem is where you've hooked-up your ElectroCoupler -- the wiring between the two versions of the LCRX is NOT the same. For your unit, hook one coupler wire to Pin D. Connect the other wire to Ground (or Pin K).

Here's the rundown for the nine stick-pins on your board:

C - Front Coupler
D - Rear Coupler
E - Front Light/Cab Light depending on wire jumper
F - Rear Light/Strobe Light depending on wire jumper
B - Open for Front & Rear Directional Lighting/Jumper to Pin L for Cab/Strobe Light functionality
J - Center Rail pick-up
N - Program-Run Switch
L - Program-Run Switch/Jumper to Pin B for Cab/Strobe Light Functionality
K - Ground

Unfortunately, the Lionel listing on their website is wrong, as the 610-8124-110 is the earlier version of the board. The correct board for your Milwaukee B unit is 691-PCB1-00E, but those aren't currently available from them. (And that might explain why they list the earlier board, as they have those in stock.)

TRW

Last edited by PaperTRW
PaperTRW posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Does this help any?

While it's better than nothing, it's the wrong version of the board and also the wrong wiring configuration.

Hotbox posted:

Fixed the backup light problem. Whoever owned the diesels previously, had somehow placed the backup light lead on pin 3 on the upper right connector. I moved it to pin F on the lower right connector. Refer to Johns LCRX diagram above or the schematic I referenced in Supplement 38, page S38:2-3. Both diagrams have the backup light lead on pin F. I placed the coupler 2 lead connector on pins C & D. That would be equivalent to the "R" coupler two pin connection point on John's diagram. My B unit (rear) coupler still doesn't work. You don't get the buzz sound that energizes the coupler solenoid but I do get the railsounds swooosh. Checked the coupler leads for continuity. I'm reading about 8 ohms which I guess is about right for the coupler coil.

Glad to hear the light has been fixed.

Your other problem is where you've hooked-up your ElectroCoupler -- the wiring between the two versions of the LCRX is NOT the same. For your unit, hook one coupler wire to Pin D. Connect the other wire to Ground (or Pin K).

Here's the rundown for the nine stick-pins on your board:

C - Front Coupler
D - Rear Coupler
E - Front Light/Cab Light depending on wire jumper
F - Rear Light/Strobe Light depending on wire jumper
B - Open for Front & Rear Directional Lighting/Jumper to Pin L for Cab/Strobe Light functionality
J - Center Rail pick-up
N - Program-Run Switch
L - Program-Run Switch/Jumper to Pin B for Cab/Strobe Light Functionality
K - Ground

Unfortunately, the Lionel listing on their website is wrong, as the 610-8124-110 is the earlier version of the board. The correct board for your Milwaukee B unit is 691-PCB1-00E, but those aren't currently available from them. (And that might explain why they list the earlier board, as they have those in stock.)

TRW

Yup, we are in sync.  Was just about to do that after checking that the coupler was OK and I have been referring to the Supplement 38 wiring diagram and it shows the coupler connected that way with the LCRX that I now have installed in my B unit. It's not the correct wiring diagram that went with my original B unit 6-18139, but there is no wiring diagram in the supplements for the 6-18139 Milwaukee B unit. So I use pin D for power to rear coupler and tie other lead to ground in the wiring harness. Here is the wiring diagram that now works for my B unit and LCRX combo. It shows the proper connection for the backup light too - pin F.

Thanks for the help!!

I'll make the wiring switch after I eat some lunch and report the results.

Ken

IMG_2958

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  • IMG_2958
Last edited by Hotbox
Art Lites posted:

no functions in tmcc  and no sounds.  will check light.

Art,

To get back to your RS/TMCC issues, is this the proper wiring diagram for your WP dummy? It should be if you have a motherboard and separate RS, Power Supply and R2LC boards. It may be a good starting point to check wiring. 

My problems appear to be solved. Have the coupler, backup light, all Railsounds, ENG ID, etc all functioning properly on my Milwaukee B-unit 6-18139! 

Thanks to GR John, TRW and any other help.

Ken

 

IMG_2959

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Images (1)
  • IMG_2959
Last edited by Hotbox

Art,

Getting back to your Western Pacific F-3 Dummy Unit, as John mentioned above, be sure to check the wiring especially if you've already tried replacing the R2LC.

Other things to try:

1) Remove and re-seat all three of the modular boards in your dummy unit, taking care to align the connectors properly when re-installation. Sometimes oxidation can build-up on these pins.

2) Note that Lionel recommends an unusual R2LC restore code (36) for at least the powered unit in your pair. (See link below.) I'm honestly unsure why the 3 is necessary, but I suppose it can't hurt to give it a try.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf

You may want to try both the 36 as well as the standard 6 to see if either one will get your RailSounds dummy unit to respond correctly.

TRW

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