TMCC/Legacy Track Signal Booster (Dale's Legacy Continues)

Here's another success story for Dale and John's buffer.  I run TMCC only on a very large layout with about 2400 feet of track.  I've added earth ground wires wherever needed so the layout typically runs very well.  In order to test the unit, I disconnected an earth ground above a track in a tunnel (where there are 2 overhead tracks).  A diesel with marginal antenna would run through the tunnel with headlight blinking wildly and would sometimes stop in the tunnel.

With the buffer up and running, both blue LED and green LED lit, that same diesel runs through the tunnel smoothly at any speed with an absolutely rock solid headlight.  No flicker at all.

My DC voltage measurements are 2.75 volts at the Base terminal and 3.86 volts at the Boost terminal.

Good stuff!

I'm guessing the boost is being measured connected to the layout.  Sounds like you do have a lot of track, it's actually loading down the buffer some.

Green and red?  Are you sure you're not talking about the blue power LED?

What are you using to drive it, the original TMCC command base, or a Legacy command base?  The older TMCC command base doesn't put enough signal out to get the green signal indication.  If you're using the Legacy command base, it's not putting out a full amplitude signal.

John, I am using a Cab 1l system, I attached a pictures howing both red and green illuminated.

Ray

There's probably some oddity of your base signal, that light is directly monitoring your base signal.  It doesn't affect the buffer operation, if it's working fine, I wouldn't spend too much time on it.

Looks green (mostly) in the photo...

Ok, Thanks John, as I mentioned I did run for a short time and all seemed well. Will run more and see if signal is continually good.

Ray

Photos of LED's are difficult.   Since it's a R/G LED, at different angles, it looks different.

John, you are so right as to the difficulty in photographing the LEDs, I spent a lot of time to get the pic,almost gave up.

Ray

Yes the sensors are not like eyeballs,  but handy for seeing IR.

Ray, that is a good picture, it is exactly what mine first looked like. My advice is if the layout is working, ignore it. I still have some unexplained signal issues on my 2 rail layout but fortunately found a temporary fix that by all logic should not have any effect. My current thought is one of the AS-AR-AC boards is "defective." I am not sure if you have any of these on your layout. My illogical temporary fix is to keep track power on the Turntable pit rails which are fed through one of the AS-AR-AC boards. If I do this one thing the layout works perfectly, otherwise I have signal issues even with a solid green light on the Buffer.

Ray, if you will be at S Fest we could meet up.

Tom, As far as I know, I don't have any of those boards on the layout. I ran the locomotives that had problems for a longer period today, the problem surfaced when running as a consist. The two areas that were troublesum showed no problems now. S Fest, at this time I am not sure if I can make it but will keep this in mind.

Ray

I received my legacy control base back from Lionel today. It now has a bright green light 2.001 volts to buffer and 6.37 volts to track. everything works great. The only problem is my engine roster is gone  and the base is unnamed. I can view the list on my cell phone WiFi when not linked to base is there any way to restore roster to base?

Jprails posted:

I received my legacy control base back from Lionel today. It now has a bright green light 2.001 volts to buffer and 6.37 volts to track. everything works great. The only problem is my engine roster is gone  and the base is unnamed. I can view the list on my cell phone WiFi when not linked to base is there any way to restore roster to base?

Yes, but only if you had backed it up first.  I do this via the Windows Legacy System Utility.  If you're not familiar with this, I think you may have to enter things again from scratch.

But...if you go ahead and install and use Lionel Legacy System Utility, it's easier to install the names, numbers and options for all your engines with a real keyboard.

Not only that Chuck, but you can just use the list on the WiFi to get all of the stuff in, easier to transcribe if you have the data to look at.  Of course, if you have sensor equipped locomotives, you just drive them over the sensor track.

DM TMCC Buffer kits are now available.  I've attached the kit instructions and the buffer user's manual to this post so you can evaluate your need and your ability to construct the kit.  Each kit contains all the materials you'll need to build one buffer.  Thru-hole construction was used to make the assembly easier.  Also, the cases were prepped with the holes and slots as without the drilling fixture, that would have been more time consuming.

DM TMCC Buffer Kit Documentation.pdf

DM TMCC Buffer Documentation.pdf

Contact me via my profile address if you want one of these kits.

Been having problems with the two sensor tracks on my layout. Tried resetting them checking all the plugs. Everything seems OK. The only thing I changed was adding the booster. Disconnect the booster sensor tracks work. Checked the hookup wiring on the booster and they are in the right spots. Hook the booster back up and the sensor tracks stopped working.  The booster is about 16 inches from the Legacy base. Have a powermaster bridge nearby but I tried taking that out and it didn't make any difference.

Well, I'd try moving it farther away, but 16" should be sufficient.

As an experiment, we could try cutting down the boost, here's a simple voltage divider to reduce the amplitude of the signal while still keeping the low impedance drive.  See if this changes the situation.

I cut the trace between R5 and C6, easy to do, and soldered a couple #24 wires to the edge of the chips. And then the other ends to a 1K potentiometer. I was looking in the junk for a 2K but the 1K, 1/8 inch mounting,  is adequate for a variable gain and takes up minimal space. Instead of 3.3 gain, it now varies from 3.3 down to 1.65 which is where I leave it. Modest layout, but I like having the booster and seeing the green LED since I am familiar with the broken Legacy base with the greatly reduced output.

Be cautious tack soldering the pre-tinned wires on to the edges of the chips, because too much heat will cause the chips to slide off their pads.

I moved the booster about 10' away and no change. Don't have any resistors but I have some diodes.  The number on them is RL207. Under that it says mic. Would those be OK to try. Don't really know much about his stuff.

Diodes won't get it done.

OK so I need some resistors . Which ones and from where. Thinking maybe picking up a 1 K potentiometer also.

Well, depending on how much you want to reduce the amplitude, you need a varied selection.  You can get them from Digikey, just look for 1/4 watt thru-hole resistors, 5% ones are plenty accurate.  It's handy to have some of these around if you're doing anything with electronics.  My starting suggestion is a 1000 ohm and a 2000 ohm resistor.

OK thank you.

cjack posted:

I cut the trace between R5 and C6, easy to do, and soldered a couple #24 wires to the edge of the chips. And then the other ends to a 1K potentiometer. I was looking in the junk for a 2K but the 1K, 1/8 inch mounting,  is adequate for a variable gain and takes up minimal space. Instead of 3.3 gain, it now varies from 3.3 down to 1.65 which is where I leave it. Modest layout, but I like having the booster and seeing the green LED since I am familiar with the broken Legacy base with the greatly reduced output.

Be cautious tack soldering the pre-tinned wires on to the edges of the chips, because too much heat will cause the chips to slide off their pads.

I like the idea of having the gain adjustment. Just a little paranoid about cutting the trace and soldering onto the chips. My hands not so steady when doing stuff like that. Think gonna try the resistors first.

Gweedo posted:

Been having problems with the two sensor tracks on my layout. Tried resetting them checking all the plugs. Everything seems OK. The only thing I changed was adding the booster. Disconnect the booster sensor tracks work. Checked the hookup wiring on the booster and they are in the right spots. Hook the booster back up and the sensor tracks stopped working.  The booster is about 16 inches from the Legacy base. Have a powermaster bridge nearby but I tried taking that out and it didn't make any difference.

The sensor track is sensitive to the TMCC signal if the signal has harmonics or high amplitude.  The TMCC signal can be too high, so keep that in mind.  If your sensor tracks stop working, your TMCC signal is definately too high!!

I guess I should look into a gain modification mod for the buffer.  I'm thinking something with a pot on the top of the case connected into the circuit to allow a x1 to x3 gain adjustment.  I'll look at Digikey and pick a small pot I can attach to the top of the case...

That's what I did John. The 1K, 1/4 inch mounting pot that I had on the top of the case. I think I posted 1/8 inch before here but that was the shaft diameter

The funny thing is I did not have a 1/8 inch shaft knob, so I went on ebay and found a brand new old stock one for $1.50 BUT the shipping was $3. I should have ordered more than one knob now that I think of it.

I see Digikey has pots for 79 cents, I think I'll get a few and try out a mod.  My idea is to just replace R5 with a 2K pot and a 1K series resistor.  That allows me to vary the gain from about 1:1 to 3:1.  This also preserves the input signal monitoring indicators.  What would be really cool is a graduated dial with the gain figures on it, but I think that's gilding the lily.

I guess this explains why my 3 sensor tracks all stopped working. I only have two engines that work with them since I am in S gauge so it is not a big deal.

I'm working on a mod to vary the output gain, that retains the low impedance drive and lets you vary the amplitude of the signal to address issues like this.  Of course, you'll have to either apply it yourself or send the buffer back to me for the fix.

These are kind of nice and colorful knobs included.

f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/6x-2K...802!US!-1:rk:23f:0

They're a few bucks cheaper than I was going to spend for five from Digikey, so I ordered a set.

SantaFeFan posted:

Gweedo posted:

Been having problems with the two sensor tracks on my layout. Tried resetting them checking all the plugs. Everything seems OK. The only thing I changed was adding the booster. Disconnect the booster sensor tracks work. Checked the hookup wiring on the booster and they are in the right spots. Hook the booster back up and the sensor tracks stopped working.  The booster is about 16 inches from the Legacy base. Have a powermaster bridge nearby but I tried taking that out and it didn't make any difference.

The sensor track is sensitive to the TMCC signal if the signal has harmonics or high amplitude.  The TMCC signal can be too high, so keep that in mind.  If your sensor tracks stop working, your TMCC signal is definately too high!!

OK thank you for info.

When my pots come in, I'm going to test a gain control mod to the buffer.  Shame we didn't think of it before they were all built!   It will be a knob on the top that will vary the gain from 1x to 3x.  Once I assure myself that nothing bad happens when I fit it, I'll offer it as a retrofit mod, you can either do it yourself or send it back and I'll add the mod.

If I could only find someone to silkscreen a nice dial with the gain calibration marked...

Sounds good. Much better than me fumbling around trying to find a cure. Just disconnected the buffer for now.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

DM TMCC Buffer kits are now available.  I've attached the kit instructions and the buffer user's manual to this post so you can evaluate your need and your ability to construct the kit.  Each kit contains all the materials you'll need to build one buffer.  Thru-hole construction was used to make the assembly easier.  Also, the cases were prepped with the holes and slots as without the drilling fixture, that would have been more time consuming.

DM TMCC Buffer Kit Documentation.pdf

DM TMCC Buffer Documentation.pdf

Contact me via my profile address if you want one of these kits.

Nice kit. Good pictures and choice of components. Easy to build. 1 hour or so.
Thanks,

gunrunnerjohn posted:

DM TMCC Buffer kits are now available.  I've attached the kit instructions and the buffer user's manual to this post so you can evaluate your need and your ability to construct the kit.  Each kit contains all the materials you'll need to build one buffer.  Thru-hole construction was used to make the assembly easier.  Also, the cases were prepped with the holes and slots as without the drilling fixture, that would have been more time consuming.

DM TMCC Buffer Kit Documentation.pdf

DM TMCC Buffer Documentation.pdf

Contact me via my profile address if you want one of these kits.

John,

Just checking, but these are now listed as "TMCC buffer" kits - I assume these are the same as the original "TMCC/Legacy booster"  items - just in kit form ?

Probably missed the post, but are these compatible with Legacy being run through a DCS TIU/WiFi/SER 2 system ? 

Cost ?

Thanks

These are identical in function to the first run of assembled units, I didn't think I'd be able to assemble enough orders to do another SMT production run, so I just changed over to thru-hole components to make the kit version.  The circuit and function is identical to the assembled version (at least after you assemble it).

These have nothing to do with the serial data from the Legacy, and they don't affect it either.

Just finished testing the signal amplitude mode, so far, so good.  It varies the output amplitude from around 1.1:1 to 3:1 from stop to stop.   Most folks won't need this, however if you're running LCS Sensor Tracks, or you have experienced DCS issues after adding the TMCC Buffer, this mod may be the ticket to the two systems coexisting.

The installation is fairly simple, see pictures and description below.

 Remove R5 and solder pot and resistor combination across the R5 connection

Close-up detail of pot and resistor assembly

Drill hole(s) for amplitude adjustment pot

Mount pot and reassemble case

That's the installation process, so it's fairly simple to upgrade the box.

John:

I am interested in acquiring the TMCC booster kit.  Please let me know the details concerning said purchase.  Your assistance is greatly appreciated.  And much thanks for being an outstanding resource for many of us who gain new insight after reading the OGR Forum.   

Spence

My finished kit, I added banana jacks for in and out.

Hi...I know it has been a while since this topic was discussed, but, I need some help. 

When I first received John's Track Signal booster, I discovered I had an issue with my Legacy base not giving enough power (other people had this issue.)  I the legacy base back to Lionel and just got the base back which is now repaired.  

I am still getting a red light on the track signal booster.  I decided to disconnect everything and see if there a cross signal somewhere.  I did get a green light when everything was disconnected from the beginning, but notice that my DZ 2001 Data Wire Driver's red light started to glow brighter with each DZ 2500 switch machine I add to the daisy chain via the Data wire. 

I should also mention that have the driver connected to Dale's "Serial Booster", otherwise the data driver does not get enough juice from the Legacy base. 

Now, when I unplug John's track signal booster, the red light on the data driver goes out and only lights when a command is given...which is the way I think it is supposed to "behave".   

I am starting to get frustrated and am wondering if the track signal booster was a wise purchase for my layout or not.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Greg

I anyone reading this thread wants one of these TM Buffers, I have a brand new one Available..My Layout does not require it. See my email in my profile. It’s a great help on larger layouts.  

Greg, the amplitude adjustment mod may be of help here.  It allows adjustment of the gain from around 3:1 stock to around 1:1 at the low end.  This still keeps the low impedance drive but cuts the amplitude of the signal to about what the command base outputs. 

DM TMCC Buffer Gain Adjustment Modification.pdf

This may solve the issues you're seeing.  Jon Z. noted that the LCS Sensor tracks have a problem if they get too much signal, could be the DZ switch machines have the same issue.

leapinlarry posted:

I anyone reading this thread wants one of these TM Buffers, I have a brand new one Available..My Layout does not require it. See my email in my profile. It’s a great help on larger layouts.  

I was generally ok without it, but I like keeping an eye on my Legacy Base with the green LED.

Source of 2K pots

f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/3x-2K...1801!US!-1:rk:6f:0

They have quantity 5 for a buck something more.

Hey GRJ,

I noticed in the mod instructions you say to remove the R5 from the board and connect the pot/resistor combo to "R2". Is that what you meant to write?

Nope, and I'll go back and put the corrected copy in the post.  Obviously, it's R5 as well.

All fixed!

The DM TMCC Buffer Gain Adjustment Mod. works good on  the LCS Sensor Tracks. I found the sweet spot with the knob half way up on the buffer.The sensor tracks work well. At the same time there are no signal problems on the layout. It is a beautiful thing.

Great, that's what we like to hear.   I thought that might address the remaining issues with too strong a signal.

Another happy owner chiming in.  I spent a little longer than Jack assembling my kit but it went extremely smoothly and worked as it should first try.  With highball signals of green and blue there was no more need for a ground plain I had previously hooked up to catenary.  I dare not comment on readings lest my novice grade talents show.  More importantly, the kit was a joy to assemble, a marked improvement on my 300 ft. layout and was worth ten times the price for anyone serious about flawless CC operation.  Best money I ever spent on the pike.  Thanks Dale and John.

Bruce

John, A question regarding the signal with the booster now hooked up l am hearing static from the speakers in my Flyer Chief locomotives. Might this be the result of to much signal on the rails?

Ray

That isn't something that anyone has reported, but anything's possible.   You might consider the amplitude adjustment mod, that allows you to dial back the amplitude of the track signal while keeping the low impedance drive that helps drive high capacitance.

It's a pretty simple install, I can send you the parts for a self-install, or you can ship the buffer back to me for it to be installed.  The mod allows a gain adjustment from around 1.1:1 to the stock 3:1 amplitude.

Here's the mod in pictures.

Ray, the only Flyerchief engine I have left is the UP GP7. It is silent except for the built in sounds with the Buffer connected to the layout.

John, would you be willing to do the gain control mod on mine? It would be good to have the sensor tracks working again.

Send me an email on my profile email address and we'll arrange it.

John,   I would prefer to send to you for the mods. Would you please email me your mailing address?

Thank you

Tom, I get the static sound on both of my Berks, may be more pronounced because of the ERR Fat Boy speakers.  I put my GP7 on and can hear static in the back round, harder to pick out because of the diesel sound.  If I would not have gotten these hearing aids I, likely,  would not have heard it.

Ray

need assistance

buffer installed got the green light however sensor tracks did not operate. installed the mods to get sensor tracks to work, now NO green light only red and no  signal to track. (legacy will not fire up)

any ideas

checked wiring and value of parts.   2K pot     1K resistor

Jim

Sounds like the pot/resistor combo isn't properly connected to the spot for R5 on the PCB.  Send me a picture of the connections.

john the pic is the previous post of my connections to R5 and the pot.

jim stefl

It all looks right, but obviously something happened.  I have to assume something else was compromised.  I suggest you sent it back to me and I'll figure it out.

Thanks John    will send it back to the 252 center point lane address

jim

Hey John; kinda late to the party on this, but if you have any extra or unsold kits around, I would sure take one please. We are wintering in Arizona until March, so pretty easy shipping. Please let me know, email in my profile.

Thanks, Rod

You are late to the party.  I think I still have three kits, so send me an email and we'll get you set up.

Email sent John.

Rod

Hi John; kit received yesterday thanks, all good!

I was poking around looking for the assembly/operation notes file, with no luck. Can you point me in the right direction please?

Thanks, Rod

Sorry Rod, I packed two of them in a hurry and didn't stick the instructions in.  However, I can fix that right here.

Here's the kit documentation as well as the operational instructions for the finished product.

DM TMCC Buffer Kit Documentation.pdf

DM TMCC Buffer Documentation.pdf

Hey thanks John! I knew the answer should be pretty straightforward.  Very nicely laid out instruction BTW, complete with great illustrative photos. Good job. With any luck at all even an old guy like me might be able to fumble my way through it. Looking forward to getting started!

Cheers, Rod

John one thing I didn't see is a schematic. I bet it's buried somewhere in the previous 17 pages of responses, right?

Rod

Rod, I would have sworn you asked for this before, but here it is again.   This is common for the SMT or thru-hole versions, they have the same component numbers throughout.

Great thanks John. I am sure you are correct, I did ask before, but just wanted to make sure I have the most up to date version. 

Rod

John Please send me your mailing address so i can add my contribution to the ACS money for Dales's legacy. Thanks

Dewey, you didn't buy a buffer, did you?  If you did, it was already in there.

No I didn't buy a buffer john, I no longer can function well enough to operate the layout very well. Dale did me several favors and taught me a lot so I wanted to send a contribution to ACS along with yours. You have done a great service for OGR Members and I commend you for the hard work and time required. I will send you a check as soon as I have your Zip to go along with the address mentioned above.

Thanks

Dewey, just send it direct to ACS, no need for a middleman.  Once I have sold the remaining couple of buffers, I'll be doing the same.

Sent to American Cancer Society,  $200 "In memory of Dale Manquen, O gauge Railroader".

John, the home layout is showing a need for a booster, how much for the kit?

Ron

Shoot me an email Ron and we'll fix you up.

John,

Just reinstalled the Signal booster with the Pot modification, I tuned it to a green light , works perfect. Thanks to Dale and you so much and thank you for the fast turnaround and getting it back to me so quickly. You are a great asset to the hobby.

Thanks

Ray

I'm glad it all worked out.  Sure wish Dale was still around to see his creation work for so many people, he is sorely missed!

John,

I set aside a couple of hours yesterday and finally built the signal buffer kit. Haven't had time to test it over the entire layout but in preliminary  testing 3 locomotives responded well on different segments of the layout. I plan to add the pot and resistor modification and noticed the component layout is different on the kit PCB than the production unit PCB shown in the online picture of the modification. Is R5 the correct resistor to replace in the kit version PCB? Thanks for your help and all of your contribution to the Forum and to the hobby. 

All the component designations stayed the same between the SMT version and the thru-hole version, that was by design.  So, R5 is the correct resistor to remove on either version, the amplitude adjustment mod works exactly the same way for either.

All I did to do the kit version was take the SMT version and convert all the surface mount components to thru-hole.  For various reasons, the components aren't in the same locations on the PCB, but that doesn't affect what you're trying to do.

Due to continuing requests for these, I'm going to stock a limited number of additional parts kits.  If you're interested in obtaining one of these, please send an email to my profile address.

I turn mine down quite a bit. Mostly I love the everything is normal green light!

I thought most folks liked the fact that TMCC worked all over the layout!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I thought most folks liked the fact that TMCC worked all over the layout!

There is that, but I have experience with Legacy bases that have very reduced output. It's kind of like a motorcycle trip where the guy takes along one of every part that has failed before.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

This is intended to be a continuation of the original thread for the TMCC signal booster to avoid confusion. I was working with Dale to create the "production" version of the buffer.  That involved creating the PCB and building some units.  Sadly, Dale passed away before we really got started, so without his input and documentation, the project languished for some time until recently.  I enlisted the aid of another forum regular, PLCProf, to assist in recreating the schematic and getting to the point of confidence that we had a working design again.

Here's a recap of where I started after Dale's passing.

As some of you may know, I was working with Dale on this project, my end was to be creating the PCB and packaging once the design was proven.  Due to Dale's untimely passing, the project was stalled.  Since I never got to actually receive the final schematic, I did manage to round up the prototype.  I enlisted some aid in reverse engineering and testing the prototype and the project is moving forward.  We have reverse engineered the prototype and are making some tweaks.  I'm hoping to maybe have a prototype PCB at York next month, however timing may be tight, so that's only about 50/50 right now.  However, rest assured that it's coming soon.

I have what I believe is a completed schematic and I've done a board layout that should work with the enclosure I've selected.  I haven't received the boxes yet, so there could be changes, one of the delays I mentioned.  The "production" unit will have an off-the-shelf 24V power brick that is detachable.  The terminal strip you see on the side will be the "Euro" style, but my 3D library didn't have those.  Those terminals are where all the connections to the buffer are made.  The board projection with the TO-220 package will have a heatsink mounted to the two large holes and also be outside the box, this is to allow air circulation for cooling the buffer chip.  The white line on the board is where the enclosure wall will be, a slot allows the board projections. There is a power LED that projects through the top of the case, and also some signal level LED's that indicate a poor or missing base signal and also a "good" base signal.  Connections are also provided that output a DC level corresponding to the signal strength of the input base signal and the output buffered signal.

Discussions should continue in this thread.

Thank you John for your note.  Through another referall I am on your list.

The last of my parts are in, and I have commitments for a number of them.  I still have about about ten more parts sets for the buffer.  I am offering them assembled for the original price, or I also am offering a kit of parts as well.  Please contact me using my profile email address for more information.  Assembled versions will be BTO (Built To Order) as the mass produced ones are gone, and I'll be hand assembling and testing the few that are ordered.  Obviously, that will also take a bit more time as I'll be doing them on demand.

  Sure wish Dale was still around to see his creation work for so many people, he is sorely missed!

John, I agree, I think everyone here with TMCC/Legacy misses Dale, may he rest in peace.

Ray

I am interested in one of these, I sent an e-mail to your profile e-mail.

Jake

This is the BEST thing that I ever did for my large layout. I now have NO DEAD SPOTS. Best $$$ I ever spent.

John, sent you an email.....

Jesse

I'll reply to all the emails individually.

Dale will be missed. I started all of this with the first  signal booster that was built with vacuum tubes. Solved all of my signal problems. I immediately published all of the data for that device on this forum.   A few more were built by others with totally unusable TMCC railroads to solve their problems. Many people requested a solid state device instead of the vacuum tube model I was using. Converting it to solid state to make it smaller and less expensive was not something I was willing to undertake. Dale stepped in and took that task on. Thank you Dale.  I have seen the diagrams of his units and heard good things about its performance. Both I, and I am sure Dale would agree, that what we have done to solve the perplexing problem on troublesome TMCC railroads is a contribution to the hobby that we all enjoy so much and we and those carrying on the effort to make thing run smoother and better are good for all. 

Jim, you are certainly to be commended for your first version.  I know the NJ-HR used that for years until they cooked it trying to get just a little more "boost" out of it.   I am very sad that Dale wasn't around to see the logical conclusion to his efforts, he was gone way before his time!  One of the brightest guys I ever met, he had a knack for building practical solutions to vexing problems.

I've got one of these kits I still have to build.  Too many projects, too little time..

Jim

As users of the tube and solid-state buffers, the NJ hi-Railers are very thankful to all the contributors of these devices. With our 30' X 185' (~7,500' of track) layout, these buffers have made a tremendous improvement in the performance of TMCC!

Thanks again to all the contributors, 

Bob D 

NJ Hi-Railers

Electrical Team

@David98, if you're interested in one of these, I suggest you put me on your approved email list.

I am interested in purchasing. Can you add me to your list?

casconi posted:

I am interested in purchasing. Can you add me to your list?

Ditto Please add me

John,

Finally built the kit but when connected and turned on, power light is unlit, the other LED is red, and after five minutes or so, the heat sink is not warm. Where should I start checking things? The output readings are low. TMCC is connected to Legacy via the serial cable.

Terry

If the power light doesn't come on, that's pretty basic!  Since you have a red light, you're getting power, I'd say the power LED is in backwards.

Top suspect is the output amplifier having shorts between the pins.  They are VERY close, and it's very easy to short them without knowing it happened.  Use an ohmmeter to check between adjacent pins and make sure none are shorted.

As far as the signal, lots of stuff could have affected the signal.  Do you have anything like a 'scope to look at what's happening in the circuit?

John,

Flipped the power LED, works now. Checked for solder bridges on the output amp and found none and it still doesn't get hot or even warm.

Terry

Well, my next step would be to doublecheck all the soldering as well as the component placements.  It's pretty hard to troubleshoot a circuit long distance.

This is, of course, why I lean to doing the fully assembled/tested model, I know it works before it leaves.

John,

After a closer examination of the board, it seems I installed C3 backwards. Since there is a slight bulge on its top, I assume a replacement is called for.

Terry

That probably didn't do it any good!   Send me an email with your address and I'll send you a replacement.  In looking at the circuit, I wouldn't expect that to cook anything else, but I could be wrong.  Actually, with the usage of that particular cap, I'm surprised it cooked, it actually has very little voltage across it in normal operation.  I'd actually expect the buffer to probably work, at least for some time, with that one in backwards.  I'd look around for any other component issues, for sure check C1 and C2 for proper orientation, they will greatly affect operation!

Specifically, note that the stripe on both of these faces the power jack.

Done. Thanks. The othe 2 were fine.

Terry

Folks, I've had several kits come back to me with issues to solve, and usually it ends up that they were soldered with what appears to be acid core solder.  THAT'S A GIANT NO-NO FOR ELECTRONICS!  You must use a noncorrosive flux, the standard is rosin core solder.  I use the 63/37 Kester Rosin Core solder for my electronic work.  Save the other stuff for plumbing!

I have a couple of the final sets that I've assembled and tested on the shelf if anyone is still looking for one of these.

ACID core solder!!  Ohmigod, unbelievable. I don't know if you can even buy rosin core solder at Home Depot or Lowes; maybe not?

John, maybe it would be wise to include a small 2 or 3 foot long chunk of rosin core solder wound up with each kit, like Heathkit used to do? Then it would be hard to screw up. 

Rod

That would have been a good idea, but I'm winding this down now, I have a handful of parts left for a few more units and I'm done.  When I get some spare time, I assemble one or two and put them on the shelf. 

I still have to come up with a nice package of documentation so going forward after my parts run out someone could duplicate the buffer, don't want the process to get lost.

OK - I cringed when I seen Acid Core solder!!!     Does Acid Core even come in a small enough diameter to be able to solder PCB components?? (Even though its a bad idea)

For Smoke Units I do use the high temp solder (No it's not Acid Core).  

Jim

Rosin core solder is available at Lowe’s & Home Depot, in both thick & thin gauges.  

Tom

I built a lot of Heathkit devices over the years. Everything from a color TV to stereo components to test equipment. I always remember the warning that Heathkit had on the 1 st page of the assembly manual. Kits returned for repair or troubleshooting that have been assembled with acid core solder or fluxes will be returned without repair and warranties are void. Use only rosin core electronic solder.  Heathkit even went as far as including a coil of solder they wanted you to use with the kits. 

I am just reading this forum for the first time - my loss at being late to the party.  Is it still possible to get one of these?  Thanks!

Gunrunner.

These buffers are the best thing ever for a large multi level layout. It has cured so many problems that I had. I now run logos that I was go g to sell because of signal problems. I bought 3 of these units just in case lighting strikes I still have one i need to put a pot in . Thanks. 

John, the gerber files and components list would be great!! 

One item we have started doing is to use a socket for the eprom for easy swap, we have 3 of the kits left, and have secreted the unit under the layout so it can not be unplugged. The units we lost to electrical overload from the ac/dc plugs being swapped lead to this change.

sandysimon posted:

I am just reading this forum for the first time - my loss at being late to the party.  Is it still possible to get one of these?  Thanks!

I still have a few sets of parts, so I can still supply them.

Ron_S posted:

One item we have started doing is to use a socket for the eprom for easy swap, we have 3 of the kits left, and have secreted the unit under the layout so it can not be unplugged. The units we lost to electrical overload from the ac/dc plugs being swapped lead to this change.

Ron, what EPROM?  There are no programmable parts in the TMCC buffer.

Sorry John, In my head they were eproms, my bad. The AD744 and LM chips are what we socketed.

You had me confused Ron, I thought you might have redesigned the buffer while I wasn't looking!

John,

I'll send an email.  I would like to purchase a kit of one of these.  Thanks again for all you do for us in the hobby.

Dave Goodman
dave.goodman@msn.com

GRJ, thanks for the heads-up on limited availability on this. I'll take a fully assembled unit, if any left. Thanks!

Ron

Send me an email and we'll fix you up.

John, I totally respect you for your dedication to this group, "WOW!".  How many of us would take on a project like this to help others? You and the late Dale M. fantastic people.

Thank you and God bless you

Ray

If you can - send me one - thanks

ted

Gunrunner,

I am interested in a track signal booster 

you can reach me at cogen1981@hotmail.com

John send me info for the booster and I also have at least one engine I need your help repairing. Thank you! 

Folks, I have two kits left, and that's all. If someone is really wanting as assembled unit, I can build one or both of the kits, again that would cause a delay as I do them as I get time.

If there's really a lot of interest in more, I can order more parts, but it'll take some time as I need more PCB's, boxes, and power supplies, those take a few weeks.  Obviously, the Digikey parts come in a couple of days.

Hi john

can you build one of the kits for me

thanks Rich R in

Please send me an email.

John

i just sent you an email for the kit build

thanks Rich R

Can you build another one for me please?

I have more parts on order, but since stuff like the power supplies and plastic enclosures come from overseas, it'll probably be 2-3 weeks.  I also have to prep the cases with the holes and slots.  I'll post here when more are available.

Hi John - I'm not in a rush and would take an assembled unit whenever ready. I think I e-mailed you earlier this week.

Thanks.

Got you in the queue Richie.

Gunrunner John, Question, does this kit help the Cab 1, Cab 1L, Legacy Remote, have better control of the engines at far corners of a layout? Specially if the trains in a part of the layout 15 feet away from the TMCC/Legacy bases? Sometimes my Cab 2 loses control of the engines. Just wondering if this is the fix. Thank You very much for all you do for our hobby. 

No, this has nothing to do with the link between the remote and the command base, it's affecting the track signal out of the base to the layout.  The RF link between the remote and command base is a whole different conversation.

@leapinlarry posted:

Gunrunner John, Question, does this kit help the Cab 1, Cab 1L, Legacy Remote, have better control of the engines at far corners of a layout? Specially if the trains in a part of the layout 15 feet away from the TMCC/Legacy bases? Sometimes my Cab 2 loses control of the engines. Just wondering if this is the fix. Thank You very much for all you do for our hobby. 

Larry, I had a dead spot on my track that I could not overcome. It developed over a period of time. I tried everything.....I purchased this booster for John, and it was the best $$$$ I have ever spent on my layout. Well worth the investment.

@Roger Wasson posted:

Larry, I had a dead spot on my track that I could not overcome. It developed over a period of time. I tried everything.....I purchased this booster for John, and it was the best $$$$ I have ever spent on my layout. Well worth the investment.

That's the problem that the buffer addresses.  The link between the remote to the command base sounds like what Larry is asking about, the buffer won't help with that issue.  For a CAB2, I've used a hi-gain antenna on the command base, and on one instance, I actually used a 2.4ghz WiFi amplifier on the command base.  That really increased the range, and for really large layouts, it would probably be a significant help.

John please confirm you got my request for an assembled unit. This was the first time I used the private communication thing. Thanks George 

Look at your profile, I even answered you there.

Larry, the very first thing to try is changing channels!  I'd try 1, 5, and 9 first, then try the intermediate channels.  It could be something interfering, like your home WiFi router.  If that doesn't do it, then you start talking about amplifiers.

Gunrunner John, I’ll do that, thank you very much. I deleted the other pictures as it was just to show you the front and back. Happy Railroading 

Hello, I have not started my layout yet, but have the design done.  Just finishing the room where it all will go.  The layout is 32' long and 13' wide.  I'm very new to all of this so I will admit I'm ignorant to all the electrical things as of now.  So, how does this all work?  Will it help me in the long runs I have? Cost?  I can send a picture of my layout if you need to evaluate my need.  I have a large collection of MTH and Legacy Lionel.  Thank you Bob  Huntnfish737@hotmail.com

Bob, I doubt you'll need the booster unless it's an unusual configuration, usually it's large and multi-layer layouts that end up with TMCC/Legacy signal issues.

BTW, what do you fly?

Capt. B767 and B757

Also, I'm looking for a #4023 Bigboy....if you know of one available, let me know.  Thx Bob

@Boeingman posted:

Capt. B767 and B757

I saw the stripes, but I didn't recognize the cockpit.

I haven't seen many BigBoy's floating around, I did have a couple extra a while back, but I sold them when they went up in price.

@Boeingman posted:

Capt. B767 and B757

Gold stripes...Delta, or former Continental?   AA is parking all of our 757s, so I’ll never get the chance.  Bummer...

I’m stuck with the bus calling us a retard every time we land.

Tom

ExCon

I'm former North Central (1978),  then through mergers: Republic Airlines, then Northwest, then Delta. Four different uniforms in the closet. I retired off the 747-400 three years ago. I flew the 747 for almost 10 years and it was a real kick, but my most favorite in my 39 year career was the 757. Northwest only had the 757's, but after the merger with Delta got to fly the 767 also. Same type rating, and we would see a mix of both on our rotations. I think most of the 757's and 767-300's are now parked. Only the 767-400's are being used. If I could go back and fly one more trip, it would be on a 757. Unfortunately, only in my dreams....

@Jack Morey posted:

I'm former North Central (1978),  then through mergers: Republic Airlines, then Northwest, then Delta. Four different uniforms in the closet. I retired off the 747-400 three years ago. I flew the 747 for almost 10 years and it was a real kick, but my most favorite in my 39 year career was the 757. Northwest only had the 757's, but after the merger with Delta got to fly the 767 also. Same type rating, and we would see a mix of both on our rotations. I think most of the 757's and 767-300's are now parked. Only the 767-400's are being used. If I could go back and fly one more trip, it would be on a 757. Unfortunately, only in my dreams....

Did you ever operate out of Minneapolis? If you did, you very likely knew my aunt. She has been with Northwest/Delta since 1975, and will be retiring next spring.

I was never based in MSP. Flew through there hundreds of times, overnighted numerous times. I was based in Chicago until the crew base closed in 1984, then flew out of Detroit. Never lived in Detroit, commuted there from Florida. I’m sure I probably would recognize her. Was she a gate agent or flight attendant?

She did a bunch of stuff... gate agent, ground traffic, flight simulators over in Eagan. Susan Tennis is her name.

John, quick question, finally hooked my booster and if fixed my issue of having a bad signal on a piece of track that i was using as an insulated rail.  One question, i have one of the newer ones that have a pot on it.  The printed instructions did not talk about it and i did not was to go through 19 pages here.  I am guessing it is for the signal, but how does it work?

Tony, that's a good question.  I never got around to documenting that as it was a late addition.  It does indeed vary the amplitude of the TMCC signal.  This allows you to "tune" the signal to minimize any interaction with DCS and also to reduce the amplitude if you have issues with stuff like LCS Sensor Tracks.

Even with the signal turned down to minimum, the buffer is still providing a substantial benefit, it gives the TMCC signal much lower drive impedance so that it can drive more track capacitance.  There are people that run it at the minimum with good results, it fixes their signal issue at that level.

The way to use it is simply turn it down as much as possible while still solving any TMCC signal issues, that will insure the maximum compatibility with device that may react poorly to too much TMCC signal.

Just to make sure, which way is less, left or right?

CCW is lower, CW is higher, just like your radio volume control.

I had to turn mine down a bit because of the interference to a sensor track. I just adjusted it until the sensor worked again.

So the original run did not have this adjustment capability?

It wasn’t a big issue, some of us just added a pot and John added it to his product at about the same time

@Stackm746 posted:

So the original run did not have this adjustment capability?

Nope, it wasn't until a bunch of them were in the field that we started getting reports of them affecting the DCS signals.  Then Jon Z. chimed in and said the sensor tracks would have a problem with too strong a TMCC signal.

Thus the amplitude adjustment feature was born.

I am just installing DCS and am having issues.   Is there a way to retrofit?

@Stackm746 posted:

I am just installing DCS and am having issues.   Is there a way to retrofit?

Send me an email and I'll send you the instructions and the parts required.  It's an easy retrofit.

I'm Interested in getting one for my barn layout I'm planning. 6 different levels spread across 2 storys (5000 feet of track). So I'll most definitely need one. How much do they cost though?

that would be something to operate on

@APW Trains posted:

I'm Interested in getting one for my barn layout I'm planning. 6 different levels spread across 2 storys (5000 feet of track). So I'll most definitely need one. How much do they cost though?

It will be the Cheapest and best $$$$ that you will ever spend for your layout. I think they use to cost around $100. but don't quote me on that. I have one and it took ALL of my bugs out of my layout. the best $$$ I ever spend for the Layout.

@APW Trains posted:

I'm Interested in getting one for my barn layout I'm planning. 6 different levels spread across 2 storys (5000 feet of track). So I'll most definitely need one. How much do they cost though?

Sounds like you will likely need a boost!  I suspect you'll also need to apply some of the other approaches to minimizing TMCC signal issues.  I believe that the NJ-HR has around 7,000 feet of track, and I know they don't run TMCC without a buffer.

I sent you an email to your profile address.

I love this booster...and the variable gain is a winner.

This booster has been great for the NJ-HI Railers 30' X 180' multi level layout.  It has minimized blinking engine head lights to the point where virtually all engines run without a problem.  

While you are planning your mega layout, make sure you understand the best way to run and segregate different types of wires before you start wiring up the layout.  Wiring will make a difference on the performance of how well your engines run.

Good luck

Bob D

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sounds like you will likely need a boost!  I suspect you'll also need to apply some of the other approaches to minimizing TMCC signal issues.  I believe that the NJ-HR has around 7,000 feet of track, and I know they don't run TMCC without a buffer.

I sent you an email to your profile address.

Yup.  We have 7000 feet of track and we've been running the buffer since John put it out.  Before that we were running Jim Lefebreve's analog (tubes!) TMCC booster (which I believe was the inspiration for Dale's buffer.)   Even with that the TMCC signal can be iffy in places so we've spend a lot of time running ground wires on telephone poles ABOVE the track.  It's made a huge difference in problematic areas. Especially in tunnels as a lot of our scenery is made from wire mesh (Faraday cage!)  I emphasis  above as in the past there was a thought that a "ground plane" under the track was the way to go.  But no!   The outside rail and the diecast boiler of steamers can block this signal.  Diesel antennas tend to be on the top of the engine and steamer antennas tend to be the boiler handrails so above them by a couple of inches is the way to go.

I attached a hints and tips sheet I put together after several discussions with a Lionel electronics engineer who designed the latest Legacy engine radios.  He reviewed it and gave it his unofficial stamp of approval. We worked with him on beta testing the radios that went into the VL Bigboys and from then on.

We've used his points whenever possible and we now  have pretty reliable TMCC/Legacy operation.

While I was putting this together Bob D. from our club posted about the importance of wiring segregation.  We're talking about the same thing.

Good luck with the build and make sure you post progress pictures!

I'm going to post the work in progress track plan file for anyone who wants to take a look. I'm going to make a new topic thread for this instead of hijacking this one. So feel free to discuss with me on the new thread.

So if running common and power together creates capacitance yet dcs recommends running power and common from TIU to track as a side by side twisted pair how does one choose between the two seemingly opposing wiring recommendations?