Skip to main content

I have gone back and forth about posting this, as it feels like a dumb question to ask. The differences between Legacy and TMCC are pretty well documented, so there's no reason to ask this question, right? Let me explain.

When the scale model bug bit me, I wanted to stick to Legacy engines, the idea being that I wanted to have all of the latest features avaliable to me. However, there are some locomotives I would really like to have, but the Legacy versions are either too expensive on the second-hand market, they are highly sought-after items and disappear before I can buy them, or they haven't been produced as a Legacy model before.

As time has gone on, I have gotten a better understanding of what I want and use in my models. For one, I've discovered that I have never bothered with any of the extra sounds and nice features (eg, depleting coal, refilling water, etc.). I also don't really use the crewtalk features. Sound is important to me, but the only sounds I really care about are the steam chuffing (including 4 chuffs per revolution), whistle, and to a lesser extent the bell. I also like slow starting and running too. I've also discovered that for some Lionel models, the tooling hasn't changed between TMCC and Legacy versions, just the electronics and feature set. Thus my attention turns to the TMCC version.

But before I go out on a limb and make a purchase I might regret, I want to ask: those of you who run both Legacy and TMCC, does having Legacy spoil you? Does TMCC feel like a downgrade when you run a TMCC engine? Or do you alternate between the two without being bothered? Because quality sound is important to me I am thinking I would limit my TMCC selection to railsounds 4 or later (I've found some old videos of railsounds 4 engines, I think it sounds good). I know Gun Runner John's chuff generator can provide 4 chuffs/revolution too, so with some tinkering I can address that on any engine I buy.

I realize this question is pretty subjective, but I am hoping to get some concerns laid to rest, maybe get some new insight too. Thanks for your time.

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

You may be in minority here as someone who started with Legacy. Most here started with something before Legacy came along, in fact before any type of command control even existed. Some want the best available and gradually sold off their older trains but for many, earlier command control systems or even conventional is good enough.

I too am OK with good chuff and whistle so TMCC is fine with me. If an engine comes along that has never been made before that would be reason to consider it, not the fact it has Legacy control.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

I have a lot of stuff that runs both Legacy and TMCC.  I'd be lying if I said that I prefer most Legacy engine sounds over the TMCC ones, but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the TMCC models.  I also do a lot of upgrades to TMCC and PS/3, I like them all!

If there were a locomotive with TMCC and the same model with Legacy, I'd probably go for the Legacy unless the price difference was truly prohibitive.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:
As time has gone on, I have gotten a better understanding of what I want and use in my models. For one, I've discovered that I have never bothered with any of the extra sounds and nice features (eg, depleting coal, refilling water, etc.). I also don't really use the crewtalk features. Sound is important to me, but the only sounds I really care about are the steam chuffing (including 4 chuffs per revolution), whistle, and to a lesser extent the bell. I also like slow starting and running too. I've also discovered that for some Lionel models, the tooling hasn't changed between TMCC and Legacy versions, just the electronics and feature set. Thus my attention turns to the TMCC version.

As you observed, you can upgrade to 4-chuffs in several ways, and also older TMCC can be upgraded to fan driven smoke, and further to properly chuffing smoke and smoke at idle.  With a few enhancements, you can create a poor man's Legacy model from that TMCC locomotive.

I have the scale PRR T1 Duplex that is getting that treatment.  It's never been made in Legacy, so I got the TMCC version.  I'll add the ERR Cruise Commander M, Chuff-Generator, and the Super-Chuffer.  I am also going to replace the existing Railsounds in the tender with all the RailSounds 6 stuff from the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex for better sounds.  It won't be a Legacy model, but it'll run like one and sound like one, close enough!

I have many TMCC engines, all upgraded with cruise and 4 chuffs/rev.  I have no plans to replace them with Legacy.

A couple of recommendations.

-You mentioned John's chuff generator. That in my opinion is the best way to get 4 chuffs.  Wheel magnets on the tender don't match driver rotation, and they skip chuffs too often.

-If you upgrade with ERR, keep on mind the whistle and bell are not adjustable using the handheld.  Worse, you have to take off the shell to get to the board to adjust the volume of those two sounds.  On a brass engine, make sure you get the sound level right before putting it back together.

I will say that my Legacy engines are better runners, especially at low speed which is how I run.  But for the money TMCC is a great deal.

I have a lot of stuff that runs both Legacy and TMCC.  I'd be lying if I said that I prefer most Legacy engine sounds over the TMCC ones, but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the TMCC models.  I also do a lot of upgrades to TMCC and PS/3, I like them all!

@CAPPilot posted:

I have many TMCC engines, all upgraded with cruise and 4 chuffs/rev.  I have no plans to replace them with Legacy.



I will say that my Legacy engines are better runners, especially at low speed which is how I run.  But for the money TMCC is a great deal.

All of that (and the rest of each of your replies) is reassuring. I am under the impression that the Odysey I speed controllers weren't perfect and depending on the engine may need an ERR upgrade to reach the level of slow speed control I am hoping for.



I have the scale PRR T1 Duplex that is getting that treatment.  It's never been made in Legacy, so I got the TMCC version.  I'll add the ERR Cruise Commander M, Chuff-Generator, and the Super-Chuffer.  I am also going to replace the existing Railsounds in the tender with all the RailSounds 6 stuff from the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex for better sounds.  It won't be a Legacy model, but it'll run like one and sound like one, close enough!

I was thinking about doing something similar to what you mentioned (closer to this OGR thread from a few years ago) - put in ERR for better speed control but keep the original RS. Let us know how it goes! I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a TMCC N&W Class A and then installing one of the RS boards from the new 2-8-8-2's or the Lionmaster Class A!

Being a nominal Luddite, I am more than happy with TMCC and buy Legacy equipment only if that's what the factory installed.  I have a CAB/Base 1L and quite honestly couldn't tell you what the difference is between that and my original TMCC stuff, other than the lack of a whip antenna.  As long as the basics work, I'm a happy camper with no reason to invest in an elaborate Legacy base, etc, with features I don't want or need.  I leave all the rocket science to gunrunnerjohn, bless his heart, and reach out to him for advice when stumped.

I think some of the best engines that Lionel has made were between 2000 and 2006.  I find many of the TMCC versions have better sounds (chuff, whistle or horn and bell).  As an example, I owned their SF 4-8-4 cab 3751 with TMCC and when the Legacy version was offered, I purchased it with plans to sell the older model.  After hearing the newer sounds, I wound up selling the Legacy version and having the TMCC upgraded to 4 chuffs.  I have four or five Legacy engine and all their whistle sound the same.  That was hardly ever the case on the TMCC versions.  I do not use smoke due to breathing issues, so that does not interest me.  And, contrary to most here, I really, really like the engine specific announcements on the TMCC versions.

Also \, the earlier diesels had some very nice throaty sounds.  They may not have been accurate, but they sure sounded great!  Sounds are very important to me and I have a stable of 6 or 8 Legacy diesels that I just do not run due to their obnoxious prime mover sounds.

However, cruise control is a must.

Good luck with your decision,

Don

@Bob posted:

John, how will you do that?  I thought RailSounds 6 needed a Legacy serial signal in order to work. 

Well, I thought so too.  However, I have the Lionmaster T1 Duplex and it's tender runs perfectly interfaced to my TMCC test-set with the IR link and an R2LC with TMCC. The only difference is the serial data across the IR link is reverse polarity, once I flipped the polarity, it works like a champ.

I also have one of the Legacy back-EMF cruise boards if it ends up being an issue, so I can just use that and the Legacy R4LC for the locomotive.

Well, I thought so too.  However, I have the Lionmaster T1 Duplex and it's tender runs perfectly interfaced to my TMCC test-set with the IR link and an R2LC with TMCC. The only difference is the serial data across the IR link is reverse polarity, once I flipped the polarity, it works like a champ.

I also have one of the Legacy back-EMF cruise boards if it ends up being an issue, so I can just use that and the Legacy R4LC for the locomotive.

Interesting. Neither of those methods work with the RS6 board from the Vision Hudson.

Pete

O-Gauge CJ: I can appreciate everything you said and also wholeheartedly agree with DGJONES' comments.  The only thing I would add to the latter's remarks is - if you can, whenever buying a TMCC model if possible get one which is equipped with Odyssey (ie. Cruise Control).  I say 'try' because Odyssey was only developed by Lionel part way after TMCC began, and although I realize there are 'after market' products available to achieve this, generally speaking I'm the type that's partial to 'factory installed' systems (which also saves you money) rather than paying for upgrades later.

Good Luck!

Bob, I just fired up my test set and I have one correction.  I had to use a Legacy R4LC-S03 and program it in TMCC mode to get full function.  The R2LC worked for a spell (several minutes, which apparently fooled me), and then stopped working.  However, the R4LC programmed in TMCC mode (AUX1/4) works perfectly with the CC-M and drives the tender without an issue with no oddities.  Here's a short video of the testing with a TMCC CAB1L/BASE1L driving it and using the R4LC-S03 programmed in TMCC mode.

Note that the odd chuffing cadence is because I'm pushing a button on the test-set for each chuff, it's not a problem with recognizing the chuffs.

I did have a momentary sense of panic, the chuffs gradually faded in volume at first.  Then I realized the sound board wasn't seeing any movement as I didn't crack the throttle, so it was "coasting".  Once I cracked the throttle and started the motor, the chuffs returned to normal volume.

@Norton posted:

Thats one combination I have not tried, programming the R4LC in TMCC mode. Who’d have thunk it. May cost me 200 speed steps but worth it for RS6 5344 audio if it works.

Not sure what you mean with 200 speed steps, what motor driver are you using that is giving you 200 speed steps?  I figure to use the standard CC-M and have 100 speed steps, sufficient for me.

I am using a Legacy R4LC with the rare Legacy DCDE available for a few months, now NLA. The only reason I went with Legacy here was to be able to drive the Vision 700E RS6 board. This before you could buy RCMCs outright. So far no luck having tried all versions of R4LCs and building an interface to invert serial data to the IR transmitter. Ironic if all I needed to do is put in a TMCC feature code.



Pete

Last edited by Norton
@Norton posted:

I am using a Legacy R4LC with the rare Legacy DCDE available for a few months, now NLA. The only reason I went with Legacy here was to be able to drive the Vision 700E RS6 board. This before you could buy RCMCs outright. So far no luck having tried all versions of R4LCs and building an interface to invert serial data to the IR transmitter. Ironic if all I needed to do is put in a TMCC feature code.

I have that back-EMF Legacy board as well, I bought a couple of them when they were still available.  It's really odd that you don't get the results I'm getting, I wonder if different RS6 boards react differently?  With a Legacy receiver and motor driver, I can't imagine why the RS6 board isn't working, you'd think that would be a shoo in.

Maybe the 691RCDR104     RCDR / RADIO RECEIVER (S04 code) that is used in the LM T1 Duplex might work, that works with the RS6 board I have here.

Then again, there may be all sorts of oddities, I got the sense that things were pretty fluid with the sound boards right around this time period.

WAIT!  I see the problem!  The VL Hudson uses the RCMC and not the RCDR or the R4LC.  The command structure changed for triggering sounds with the RCMC, and it's not backward compatible!  I ran across this trying to use the RS-Lite boards, and Jon Z. told me that the command structure changed and the sound boards no longer had "modes" like ringing the bell and stopping the bell on their own.  Now they get every sound command from the serial data, which makes it much easier to keep things from getting out of sync with the sounds and the action.  Since the VL Hudson uses the RCMC, the RS6 board must have different command structure to support it.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

I have gone back and forth about posting this, as it feels like a dumb question to ask. The differences between Legacy and TMCC are pretty well documented, so there's no reason to ask this question, right? Let me explain.

When the scale model bug bit me, I wanted to stick to Legacy engines, the idea being that I wanted to have all of the latest features avaliable to me. However, there are some locomotives I would really like to have, but the Legacy versions are either too expensive on the second-hand market, they are highly sought-after items and disappear before I can buy them, or they haven't been produced as a Legacy model before.

As time has gone on, I have gotten a better understanding of what I want and use in my models. For one, I've discovered that I have never bothered with any of the extra sounds and nice features (eg, depleting coal, refilling water, etc.). I also don't really use the crewtalk features. Sound is important to me, but the only sounds I really care about are the steam chuffing (including 4 chuffs per revolution), whistle, and to a lesser extent the bell. I also like slow starting and running too. I've also discovered that for some Lionel models, the tooling hasn't changed between TMCC and Legacy versions, just the electronics and feature set. Thus my attention turns to the TMCC version.

But before I go out on a limb and make a purchase I might regret, I want to ask: those of you who run both Legacy and TMCC, does having Legacy spoil you? Does TMCC feel like a downgrade when you run a TMCC engine? Or do you alternate between the two without being bothered? Because quality sound is important to me I am thinking I would limit my TMCC selection to railsounds 4 or later (I've found some old videos of railsounds 4 engines, I think it sounds good). I know Gun Runner John's chuff generator can provide 4 chuffs/revolution too, so with some tinkering I can address that on any engine I buy.

I realize this question is pretty subjective, but I am hoping to get some concerns laid to rest, maybe get some new insight too. Thanks for your time.

Hello 0-Gauge CJ,

A little over half of my locomotives (Steam and Diesel Electric) are Legacy (TMCCII), and the rest are TMCC. First, my TMCC models are physically the same level of detail as their Legacy counterparts, so the differences are mostly functional. My TMCC's are mid year 2004 through 2010 and none have been modified yet. The most noticeable differences are functional, speed control and sound. The most noticeable is the speed control. Legacy has many more speed steps than TMCC, like 100 steps Legacy w/Odyssey II vs 32 steps TMCC w/Odyssey. Because TMCC has fewer steps it doesn't adjust speed as well as Legacy and therefor will slightly slow down going up grades and speed up going down grades. Legacy seems to maintain an exact speed up as well as down a grade. If anything, TMCC is more prototypical because it does slow down up a grade. The speed up down the grade is minor, and neither of these bother me. Crew talk on my 2004 and 2005 Santa Fe EMD F3 ABA sets is minimal, but I don't use it much anyway. I'm happy with either TMCC or Legacy.

My 2004 TMCC Western Pacific 485 GS-66-77 Northern 4-8-4 chuff kinda leaves a lot to be desired, but the crew talk is fantastic and up to Legacy standards. I do plan to upgrade WP GS 485 with a Super Chuffer II and Chuff generator, as it is currently about 1 chuff per revolution compared to my Legacy SP Daylight GS-2 which is 4 chuff per rev.

I hope this helps a little.

Scott

@72blackbird posted:

I'd be running a CAB-2 Legacy remote, IF I COULD EVEN BUY ONE USED.

LIONEL, HOW ABOUT GETTING OFF YOUR *** AND MAKING A FEW THOUSAND LEGACY REMOTE SETS, INSTEAD OF LETTING EBAY PRICE GOUGERS RIP YOUR CUSTOMERS OFF?

Geno

Hi Geno, try not to blame Lionel, they are at the mercy of electronics shortages around the world just like enterprise computing, PC's, printers and laptop manufacturers, as well as automobile industry. As matter of fact General Motors is shutting down all of its manufacturing facilities for two weeks due to electronics shortages! We are all suffering from those shortages. Bummer man, I feel your pain!

Over the years, I've noticed quite a few differences between the control and feel of TMCC vs legacy locomotives. For instance, I often come to appreciate the older TMCC sound-files used that have more unique sounding horns, bells, and crew talk/tower com. But the quill-able feature of Legacy horns and bells is certainly a plus too. In my video below I describe these and many more differences... I hope this helps O-Gauge CJ!

@72blackbird posted:

I'd be running a CAB-2 Legacy remote, IF I COULD EVEN BUY ONE USED.

LIONEL, HOW ABOUT GETTING OFF YOUR *** AND MAKING A FEW THOUSAND LEGACY REMOTE SETS, INSTEAD OF LETTING EBAY PRICE GOUGERS RIP YOUR CUSTOMERS OFF?

Geno

Hi Geno, do you need the Legacy remote 991 with base, or just the hand held remote 993? I found a 993 remote at Western Depot in California for $333.00 brand new. But, you probably need the 991. Just thought I'd mention it.

Not a dumb question at all.  I think like most of us who operate, we just like to run trains.  I don't have a preference of one system over another as long as my trains run without major issues. 

There is something to be said about the simplicity of TMCC.  Personally I find the Legacy remote to be poorly designed, but then again I don't use it enough to be comfortable with it so that it my problem more than a problem with the system.

The Legacy remote has a lot of functionality, and the only thing I really have against it is the size.  If it were a bit smaller to make one-handed operation easier, I'd be quite happy all around.  The comment about it being "complicated" is not totally unjustified, they tried to pack a lot of features in and make them work well.  The two sliders for train brake and the quilling whistle are cool features, and functionality that is sorely lacking on the MTH remote.  OTOH, the MTH remote is easy to operate one-handed.

If you like the Legacy sounds and want to have realistic labor as you run, the CAB2 is your ticket.

@72blackbird posted:

WesternPacific2217,

I need the CAB-2 remote and charger.

You may be misunderstanding.  Do you already have a Legacy command system?  If not, you need the #990 Command System which consists of the Legacy Command base and the CAB2 Legacy Remote.

The #993 Expansion System consists of the #993 Charging Base and a CAB2 Legacy Remote.  If you don't have a Legacy Command Base, this will be of no use to you.

@72blackbird posted:

gunnerjohn,

I know I need the Legacy command base along with the CAB-2 remote (#990).

Geno, my apologies, my last message to you was not complete. I usually write postings in MS Word and copy and paste them into OGR, but apparently I did not select the whole message!!! Plus, I typoed the #990 and had 991. Good thing John posted with the differences between the #990 and #993. If I see a #990 for sale new, I'll let you know.

Add Reply

Post
This forum is sponsored by Lionel, LLC

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×