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I went to a local TCA show (New England) today and saw nothing but post war blow outs.    Prices cut down and sellers complaining that nobody is buying the old trains.    Everybody was excited talking about the new Legacy items and wondering what will be in the MTH catalog next month.   Lots of DCS and Legacy questions.  I feel our hobby is growing stronger than ever.  A few friends asking questions about the new MTH Wi-Fi.   Many new faces and many people looking for track and layout items.  This was a very crowded show.  

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Speaking of train shows, the relatively new Upstate New York TCA chapter held a meet at the Edgerton Community Center. This is the 65th anniversary (more or less) of the Police Athletic League Lionel four season layout of 1950, which has been located at Edgerton all these years.  The place was packed as certificates were handed out to volunteers who have maintained the layout (the only municipally owned toy train layout it is believed) off and on for the last 30-40 years since PAL turned it over to the city of Rochester. The mayor of Rochester, Lovely Warren, was there to hand out the certificates.  A truly amazing event for toy trains, Lionel and the City of Rochester.  Just so this isn't biased, there are at least 2 MTH Z4000 transformers on the layouts, and a Mel's Drive-In.  The Edgerton layouts are open once a month for free to the public at Backus Street in Rochester.  http://www.edgertonmodelrailroadclub.com/

Times change.

Reports show that the 20-somethings don't view buying a house as the next logical step in their adult path. They've seen the market downturns and would prefer to rent and preserve their free time. When I'm cutting grass three times a week in the late spring, I'm inclined to agree with them.

They didn't grow up lusting after the High $$ Lionel sets that few kids could afford in the 50's. Thus, they didn't feel the need to recapture that lost youth when they got older and buy all of the postwar items they never could afford as a kid. They also don't put a high value on it in the secondary market when they can either have pristine conventional repros (Williams and Lionel CC) or highly detailed, scale versions with detail and operating characteristics that are 100 times better. 

Then you add the fact that many collections are being liquidated as the old collectors pass on. All of this results in a glut of product on the market.

 

I was at the same show today and I saw a lot of old trains that were not heading for the door to quick. Their were some good prices mostly on some old post war and some pre war tinplate items. There were still some rusty relics that were ridiculously priced.  Some guy's still hang on to the glory day's of Lionel back in the 50's but times change and it seems like more people want the new and innovative Lionel/MTH of today like Marty mentioned. 

Didn't get there until about 11:30 today. This one snuck up on me, usually it's held in March, so I didn't have a table. Always worth stopping in though, even for half an hour.

Looked like a good crowd as Marty said. A little less in the way of tables, but it actually made it easier to maneuver, the December show was a bit too crammed in for the space.

Yes, most of the old stuff that was selling was priced aggressively, as that's the only way they move at this show. A few of the hold outs to the high priced days will pack them up and show them at the next show, and the next after that, it seems like the items on those tables never change. I saw very little in the way of slightly used / newer / new MTH and Lionel, mostly some freight sets that seemed priced too high also.

I'm particularly in the wheelhouse that Marty describes...feel bored by running the antiques, so now planning a more scale and detailed layout. I did pick up a couple of O-Line Reproductions freights (Baker's Chocolate Tank car because I'm a sucker for the local stuff) I hear that the fall show may be held down in Connecticut, not sure, just what I heard. maybe that will bring out more of the New Haven equipment?

Tim

I grew up in those post war days.  Back when I first went to York (1980) the parking lots had many bumper stickers stating "old trains wanted"  or "I buy old Lionel Trains"   I met a young kid named Mike who started selling me great diesel locomotives   made by a company named Williams.  To me that was a start in a new direction with beautiful diesels with CAN motors.  Something that looked like the very expensive LIONEL but less than half the price and they ran many times better than Lionel.  The rest is history.  Each year at York I would see more and more new trains made by different people.

I have many train friends and talk to many train guys each day.   Just about everyone is running command and buying all the command trains.   I see the hobby growing in a great direction.  With Wi-Fi available to run trains, that boosts the interest in the hobby.  We all grew up (most of us) with what is considered post war today and have moved on to what is currently available.  This is a great time to be in the hobby and I see things growing.

Think how many fantastic layouts are out in today's world.  Back in 1980 not that many.  We are all aware of these great layouts thanks to OGR and some others.  When at York, ask Jimmy at Scenic Express how layout building materials are selling.  Forget that WSJ article.  The hobby is in great shape.  It is guys/gals like yourselves on this forum that are the foundation of the future.

Back to basics, I thank Jerry Williams for getting the ball rolling with the can motored reproductions he made.  That young kid Mike that worked for Williams raised the bar very high with MTH Trains.  Others followed.  Today, Lionel is making some great trains.  Guys/Gals,  enjoy this great ride with our modern trains.

 

 

One more note before guys/gals throw rocks at me.  I have been to a few train shows in my day.  I recently went to the Big E show in Springfield, Massachusetts.  Hard to get around.  I have never seen so many people at a train show in my life.  Hopefully Gary will read this as he can maybe put up the  number of folks present.  Many young people present.  

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry
Marty Fitzhenry posted:

 

Back to basics, I thank Jerry Williams for getting the ball rolling with the can motored reproductions he made.  That young kid Mike that worked for Williams raised the bar very high with MTH Trains.  Others followed.  Today, Lionel is making some great trains.  Guys/Gals,  enjoy this great ride with our modern trains.

 

 

Oh heck yes! I remember in the early 80's pennsylvania steamers were very hard to find, except for the postwar turbines and K4's (which had the incorrect wheel arrangements....),  and the little 2-4-2, 4-4-2 starter set loco's. Now there are mikado's, mountains and even "Q" 4-4-6-4's that can be had in 3-rail. Only top of the line williams and pricey sunset models were the only manufacturers for those, limited issue, and that without sounds. If you were into, say, the P&LE in 3-rail, just boxcars and an occasional caboose, unless you painted them yourself.

I think that the choices today for control systems, or road names for whatever railroad you like to model in 3-rail are above and beyond anytime now than in previous years, IMO.

Last edited by Penn-Pacific

Most of us postwar old timers already have everything we want from that period if we're interested in it. These days I find myself buying newer scale freight cars to run behind the many postwar and modern era conventional locomotives I possess. 

The greatly increased prices for motive power have pushed me away from newer items, especially since I''d be buying features I don't want and can't even operate. The new Lionel LionChief Plus engines are more my ticket and not too overpriced. Yet.

Good news!!!

I'm hoping that, in addition to the electronics, that people are buying new because they're not all the same, cookie-cutter, low-level of detail that trains of old once were.  New trains today actually look like the trains you see on present RRs or look like the prototype a person would have seen of their favorite, maybe fallen flag, RR of years past.

I wish we had some big shows around here, but I will be going to the Greenberg show next month in Hampton Va. to see what they have to offer.

Speaking of modern trains no one has mentioned what has happened to tinplate. Thanks largely to MTH for bringing classic pre war tinplate into the modern age with can motors,DCS,sound and smoke.  I have always loved tinplate and use to restore and repair pre war Lionel but I have sold it all off for the new and smooth running tinplate of today with cruse control.  It is a great time to be in the hobby! 

 

Last edited by Chris Lonero

Marty, I won't argue with your assessment that there is a lot of interest in the newer trains with the latest features and sound. But that doesn't necessarily equate to the postwar market being dead. Anymore than 027 track being dead just because it isn't currently being manufactured. The amounts of that track that have been made over the decades is staggering. Many are still using it. Once you have the layout built, your track needs tend to disappear. 

Postwar Lionel trains were produced in the tens and hundreds of thousands depending on the product type. Some are reported to have been made near a million. On the other hand, the new high end trains are produced in runs of a few thousand. According to Lionel, 3,000 pieces is an exceptionally large production run of a scale Legacy locomotive. And the other companies like MTH and 3rd Rail produce runs of a few hundred... and less. I sometimes wonder how they can stay in business with such low runs.

Even with the new BTO model at Lionel, we're seeing dealers who have ordered extras and are having to mark them down (maybe at a loss) to sell them. I would suppose those dealers will eventually readjust their ordering numbers, if they aren't selling the product at a profit: Which we all know is a small figure for dealers.

As mentioned above, many postwar collectors are passing away. Others are moving away from traditionally sized trains to scale. So there is a glut of product coming to the market with not enough buyers.

I've also seen beat up postwar pieces at prices that are unrealistic. Those sellers go home carrying everything back. But when the postwar (and for that matter, product from other era's) products are reasonably priced, they're still selling. If I buy a postwar or MPC car for $10-15... I can't buy a pair of new die-cast trucks for much less. Even a pair of plastic trucks will run $10 from a parts dealer.

I guess it depends too on regional markets. In the shops I've been too, I seldom see expensive scale products on the shelf. Those dealers tell me when they stock them, they end up losing money on them. They'll happily order the products, but won't just stock them without confirmed orders.

The whole market is changing. It is more diverse than ever, and regardless of new interest, I suspect is overall smaller now than only a decade or two ago. And Lionel is in a tough position of trying to appease the adult operator, while at the same time reaching out to the next generation with affordable product.

 

EBT Jim,

   Although I have really never gotten out of the hobby, all the new Remote Control Engines have pushed me back into purchasing.  I am having a blast with my Christmas layouts, however I have become very picky on what I am purchasing, retirement money only goes so far.

Chris,

  I totally agree the Repro P2 Tin is so fantastic I want MTH to offer more of it, even in the 2600 series, stuff.  I want a new P2/P3 249 Engine so badly I have Guns upgrading my original with ERR.  Great time to be in the hobby!

PCRR/Dave

 

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad

I had been in this hobby many years ago with Lionel ogauge and then just put it away for some years but when my wife died I needed something to keep me from being down ,so I got back into the hobby but got hooked on MTH because I love all the sound effects and features and especially the DCS remote running trains and got me hooked completely and actually  love the hobby now and hooked for LIFE.! WHAT GREAT  engines especially STEAM ENGINESBIG BOYS . I watched one of Alex train repairs on a steam engine that was driving him crazy and thank god for terrific forum members giving ideas how to fix the Lionel engine! ounce he got the engine fixed and posted the Engine running I went right out and bought one from a forum member, terrific engine with reslly deep sounds and very bassey more so even then MTH  engines, I guess you could say I'm hooked for life!

great hobby isn't it forum member's

 

Alan     

Last edited by Alan Mancus
Marty Fitzhenry posted:

One more note before guys/gals throw rocks at me.  I have been to a few train shows in my day.  I recently went to the Big E show in Springfield, Massachusetts.  Hard to get around.  I have never seen so many people at a train show in my life.  Hopefully Gary will read this as he can maybe put up the  number of folks present.  Many young people present.  

Marty 

            In 2016, a record breaking 50+ operating model railroads were on display. there were over 25,000 visitors at the 2016 show . This show is fast becoming the largest and best attended show in america Bar none . this is the place to be if you are into model railroading , and this show will put life blood into the hobby , the young families that attend is overwhelming , info from amherst railroad.

techman      

Thanks for that information.  That is a very impressive number.  Any statements I have made on this post are from first hand observation and not something I heard from someone.  I am at Charles Ro one or two times a week and it is not hard to get the pulse of the hobby from watching what people are buying.  They are buying modern trains and LC+.   I  am glad I went to the show today as I got to catch up with some old friends.   Lots of conversation about newer trains and York.

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

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