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The resident electric guru on another forum suggests that in order to reduce voltage drop you can use the outside rails for the accessory return, and use separate out-of-phase transformers for track and accessories.  Supposedly the benefit is that the out-of-phase return currents cancel each other out somewhat and produce less voltage drop than a separate accessory return would.

Curious to know what the OGR electricity gurus think.

I have all my transformers phased and all the common/returns are tied together.  I have been using the outside rails for accessory returns for years because it requires much less wire.  My setup is only 4x10.  Would it make any sense for me to "unphase" the accessory transformer?

Pete

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Good luck.  Use rails for trains.  You want a return path for accessories, use wire.  Wire is cheap.  The hobby is still full of people who like to use the other outside rail for signals.  If you are running DCS/Legacy, keep your outside rails wired together.  People like MTH and Lionel do it this way.   You may have heard of them.  Any questions on this you can contact the guys who build the big DCS/Legacy layouts.  Every self proclaimed expert will bash this.     I have had many people who do this sort of odd wiring state they get decent signal (DCS) almost everywhere on their layout.  Do it the right way and get perfect signal all over the layout.

Nothing on my layout is out of phase.    I know of no person who has done what you are conversing about.   How big is the layout you are talking about?  Building a layout is a lot of work.  Do it right and do it one time.

 

 

 

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

John, that is OK with conventional operation.   Not so with DCS or Legacy/TMCC.  Back in the old days we all did what you want to do.  That is not needed anymore as you can buy devices with IR from many makers that will read the train going past.  No more hard wired outside control rails are needed.  I do hear what you are saying about price and agree with it.  It can get costly.

I only ask because I did it on my old layout that was not specifically wired in blocks for DCS and they worked fine. My latest is wired correctly with all 10s. Am I really going to ruin that if I go as planned? I already have the rails isolated; I have been concentrating on scenery before wiring buildings and signals. This is the first I have heard of this and very disappointing.

When more than one transformer is used on a toy train layout, it should be phased with the other transformer.  This is easy with the post-war Lionel ZW transformers, as their U-posts are interconnected and are clearly the common for all their four outputs.  [Speaking technically, all the four outputs have the same phase angle relative to this common U-post, which is why the procedure is called "phasing".  That procedure, with a 2d postwar ZW, is to insert its house-voltage line plug in such a way that the second set of outputs will have the same phase angle as the first.  The two sets of U-posts are linked by a tie wire or the common rail, and only two outcomes are possible, either in-phase, or 180-degrees out of phase.]

Being in phase will prevent any voltage on the layout source posts from exceeding 30-volts in their difference.  In any locale with 120v nominal house voltage (permitted to fluctuate to 5% overvoltage), the postwar ZW will with whistle activated produce at most 29.91v*.  This is the so-called root-mean-square voltage of a sine wave whose peak is thus 42.42v.  The danger is known to lie in the peak voltage, and the danger zone had long been considered to start at 44 volts peak.**  This is a matter of life-safety.  You will want always to observe your life-safety considerations, despite any convenience in doing otherwise.

If the second transformer is dissimilar to a postwar ZW, one might have to ask the help of a knowledgeable train repairman to learn the appropriate common post.  For the 90w 1033, the appropriate common is the A-post, as here the U-post indicates a variable output [possibly in continuation of a practice from the early days where a fixed output was indicated XYZ for 3 phase power, and TUV for a variable output (again 3 phase, the letters W and S being possibly used for a 4th wire]; this results in all other 1033 outputs having the same phase angle relative to the A post, and is contrary to the published instruction to connect the 1033 U-post to the outside rail (relative to the widespread ZW practice of connecting ZW-U to an outside rail at present).  I believe the overriding reason for making the ZW, despite its output amps making it ineligible for a UL-label, was to avoid the need for a second transformer and the possibility of touch-voltage accidents, for many, possibly most layouts at the time.

The MTH Z4000 produces its track outputs from a 28v rms sine wave, I have been told.  Thus in a 120v area, the maximum expected output would be 29.40v; the corresponding peak is gotten by multiplying this by 1.414.  Footnotes follow:

* The whistle coil produced 6v in the115v house voltage common at the time of its design.  BTW, the postwar ZW had a bit of added iron in the core so that it could be operated at the 125v Mexican voltage, which was also then used in parts of southern California (125/115 as much iron for that, plus the addition for 5% overvoltage, plus probably an unknown amount (10 or 15%***) to prevent burnouts from this cause (ie, excessive overvoltage).

** The problem at 44 volts was known from pioneering work with DC distribution.  Today, there is more research that indicates the effects of AC and DC differ somewhat; I do not know of any work with AC having a DC component, as is the case here with the whistle signal.  The NEC (national code) used both 30 and 32 volts rms as limits in various sections; very recently all these limits were made the same at 30 volts (AC sine wave).

*** An AC induction motor operates on the transformer effect, and is provided with extra iron to survive unusual overvoltages, 10% being fairly common, 15% being a better quality; a quality code is often stamped on the nameplate.  Unusual undervoltage is also a problem with motors, requiring more copper (or aluminum).

Frank

Marty,

It's my way of saying there is a lot more upstate than Poughkeepsie, which millions of New Yorkers deem to be upstate. To them if it isn't NYC, it's "Upstate". I'm about 40 miles from Buffalo in Genesee County. Technically we are Western New York, but locals also refer to it as Upstate. I don't mean to slight anyone; just proud of our area.

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