Track Plan Recommendations

Okay, here are the 27" and 33" designs I've been working on, hence the "test" in the filenames. The loop on the right in both can be pretty much swapped, I just wanted to show different options. The negative is what the 33" TT does to the yard and lead on the left as well as the reach. I expanded the access area so more will be within a 30" reach, but it's awfully narrow, so I don't know if you can fit to deal with problems. I'd still like to work on the track above the yard to see if I can't work it more around the TT and expand the access area more.

I've been trying to avoid having the mainline run through the turnout portion of a switch, but I'm still not sure how big of a problem that really is, so I added a curved switch to the 33" version. If it's okay to have curves switches, why isn't is okay to have trains run through the turnout of regular switches?

I'm also still concerned about designing this for large engines, so I made sure there was a path across the TT to a whisker track without the need to turn a large engine. Unless you plan on buying a bunch of expensive large engines, I just don't get it. If my main inventory was "normal" sized equipment I'd design with that in mind while adding the capability to run a larger engine or engines. And if I wanted to show off my large engine, I wouldn't hide it inside a roundhouse, unless the roundhouse had no roof, just a personal opinion. Trouble is, other than the TT/RH, I don't see much that can be done differently. Oh, and the TT/RH won't fit in the lower right corner, at least not the large 63" version, so I've given up on that idea.

But, I'm not giving up trying a 27" TT with Altoona's 55" RH. The 27/55 is 68.5" deep. The 33/63 is 79.5" deep. The last photo shows the difference in minimum real estate, but I'm not sure how much difference that makes given the location. I just think the larger TT/RH is oversized for the space, that's all. But, that's also a personal opinion and based more on the fact that it's ONLY a TT/RH without the usual lead tracks, water/coal stations, engine house and adjoining yard.

I accepted that my little TT wouldn't handle any of my large steam, that's just a tradeoff that had to be made.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Okay, here are the 27" and 33" designs I've been working on, hence the "test" in the filenames. The loop on the right in both can be pretty much swapped, I just wanted to show different options. The negative is what the 33" TT does to the yard and lead on the left as well as the reach. I expanded the access area so more will be within a 30" reach, but it's awfully narrow, so I don't know if you can fit to deal with problems. I'd still like to work on the track above the yard to see if I can't work it more around the TT and expand the access area more.

I've been trying to avoid having the mainline run through the turnout portion of a switch, but I'm still not sure how big of a problem that really is, so I added a curved switch to the 33" version. If it's okay to have curves switches, why isn't is okay to have trains run through the turnout of regular switches?

I'm also still concerned about designing this for large engines, so I made sure there was a path across the TT to a whisker track without the need to turn a large engine. Unless you plan on buying a bunch of expensive large engines, I just don't get it. If my main inventory was "normal" sized equipment I'd design with that in mind while adding the capability to run a larger engine or engines. And if I wanted to show off my large engine, I wouldn't hide it inside a roundhouse, unless the roundhouse had no roof, just a personal opinion. Trouble is, other than the TT/RH, I don't see much that can be done differently. Oh, and the TT/RH won't fit in the lower right corner, at least not the large 63" version, so I've given up on that idea.

But, I'm not giving up trying a 27" TT with Altoona's 55" RH. The 27/55 is 68.5" deep. The 33/63 is 79.5" deep. The last photo shows the difference in minimum real estate, but I'm not sure how much difference that makes given the location. I just think the larger TT/RH is oversized for the space, that's all. But, that's also a personal opinion and based more on the fact that it's ONLY a TT/RH without the usual lead tracks, water/coal stations, engine house and adjoining yard.

So you have made a good point it’s probably a good idea at this point and i think we all agree to just run my large engines on the outer loop and forget the large TT. So i would scrap the 33 inch TT and stick with a 27. After seeing this, it only makes practical sense. I even contemplated not having a TT at all. It just seems like slot of wasted space and seeing what others are posting here maybe i shouldn’t have one. There could be more to gain with scenery and track. I still haven’t decided to eliminate it completely but i think we’re heading in that direction because it sucks up slot of space. @DoubleDAZ if i did anyway with a TT what would be the most logical thing to do with the space probably scenery and buildings ?

I went with my TT because I could park a lot of stuff there.  You are pretty limited with yours, so maybe eliminating it makes more sense.  I was able to get enough whisker tracks around to make it useful.  Even the short tracks worked for some small stuff.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I went with my TT because I could park a lot of stuff there.  You are pretty limited with yours, so maybe eliminating it makes more sense.  I was able to get enough whisker tracks around to make it useful.  Even the short tracks worked for some small stuff.

Yeah see i’m starting to get it now yours makes a lot more sense because you can have all those tracks there, with mine i cannot because of space issues. I guess i had to see all the to realize it. The 27 inch may still be doable on mine but it’s not adding up to make sense. If i had that whole room available for this maybe i could get away with it but then i have to figure out where. my desk and storage shelf are going and i think my wife may tell me it can’t leave the office lol!

Now here’s  a thought, my mother in law is staying in our master bed in the basement. At some point she will move out then i have the entire basement for trains. That’s about 1500 sq ft of space i would have to cut through some walls or take them down but i would have a huge  layout. But that’s up for debate because i will probably get told i already have this room and the dining room lol. But maybe i can negotiate or i just need an addition on the house

You have to assert yourself!   Then you have to find a new place to live.

If  you just eliminated that one run across the TT, you'd have more room.  Truthfully, you don't need two leads into the TT, even though I did it for convenience.

If that red line were gone, you'd have a lot more room for whisker tracks, even a couple sticking out the other side.  Then you could park eight or ten locomotives around the TT, that makes it really useful!  That one line for a larger engine can be anywhere, sticking it across the TT doesn't add to the utility.

John, that is exactly what I was thinking if Dave would keep the 27”, or even go with the 24”, but nix the RH. The RH chews up a lot of space because the inside whisker tracks either have to be further from the TT or at wider angles for engines to clear the doors. Doing away with the RH let’s you position shorter whisker tracks closer as long as engines can clear parked engines. Once things get filled with landscaping, it would look nice. The idea is to have a place to park a lot of engines and if you can fit 2 leads, you can still store 2 large engines, just not turn them.

My leads happened to end up where I couldn't have a long track opposite, so I didn't get that benefit. The angle coming off the access loop just didn't lend itself to me having enough straight run into the TT to have a long track opposite.

However, if I want to be picky, I can park a large engine on one of the leads and still be able to access the TT, so it's not a total loss.

John, I agree about the 2 leads, etc. I was just showing options to drum up some comments. If Dave just uses it to store and turn engines without an RH, that would free up a lot of space. I’ll work something up, but it’s be tomorrow, today’s medical procedure wore me out. 🤣

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, that is exactly what I was thinking if Dave would keep the 27”, or even go with the 24”, but nix the RH. The RH chews up a lot of space because the inside whisker tracks either have to be further from the TT or at wider angles for engines to clear the doors. Doing away with the RH let’s you position shorter whisker tracks closer as long as engines can clear parked engines. Once things get filled with landscaping, it would look nice. The idea is to have a place to park a lot of engines and if you can fit 2 leads, you can still store 2 large engines, just not turn them.

@Doubledaz,

I believe you a john are right so i think i will go with what your saying eliminate the round house and go with a 24 or 27 turntable

Sounds good Dave.  I figured one of my leads might be parking, I did have the VL-BB parked there for a few weeks.  I did the two leads so I could drive out in either direction and be going onto the mainline off the service loop in either direction.  I know I could use my reverse loop, but this is easier and quicker.

Dave, may I ask what engines you have now? Other than a Big Boy, what large engines do you realistically see yourself buying? If you look at either of the designs, you could use the yard in the lower right to store engines and the larger yard on the left for rolling stock. I’d hate to see you give up a smaller TT. I’m going to rethink the space without considering anything except O-72 curves/switches. I also think you need a way to configure a long train to give a Big Boy a reason to be there. We’ve limited the Office Room to O-72, but large engines won’t be moving cars around in the yard, so why not use O-42 for some things like we did in the Train room?

Whisker tracks do not have to depart in a radial design on our layouts,  On one of my TTs I needed to maintain aisle clearance.

Radial positioned tracks can eat up a lot of real estate.  Radial tracks in real life are needed to service the running gear of steam engines which are parked opposite mine.

Good point, Tom. I’ll remember that.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Dave, may I ask what engines you have now? Other than a Big Boy, what large engines do you realistically see yourself buying? If you look at either of the designs, you could use the yard in the lower right to store engines and the larger yard on the left for rolling stock. I’d hate to see you give up a smaller TT. I’m going to rethink the space without considering anything except O-72 curves/switches. I also think you need a way to configure a long train to give a Big Boy a reason to be there. We’ve limited the Office Room to O-72, but large engines won’t be moving cars around in the yard, so why not use O-42 for some things like we did in the Train room?

That’s true, i have the lionel hogwartz espress, wizard of oz set, polar express , christmas lights exoress, winter wonderland.

I haven’t  gotten to buying a more real engine yet lol.

O-42 is fine with me. If the 24 or 27 TT doesn’t kill space as much we can still use it but if it didn’t make sense still then we can remove it. I like the TT don’t get me wrong but it’s about what makes sense and what fits right to get good use out of it

FWIW, as I said, the TT was a last minute thought for me, I originally figured there was no way to fit one in.  I'm glad I did, it's been useful, and it's a great place to park a bunch of locomotives.  It also looks pretty cool to see all that stuff parked around the TT.

So, here's yet another version to mull over. This one has the 27" TT w/o RH. It can store 12 engines, 9 off the TT and 3 in the mini-yard in the lower right. The aisle is relatively tight with 2 lift-outs, but should allow access to deal with derailments, etc. I added space for an engine house in the main yard, but the tracks could be used for storage instead. The mini-yard could be converted for an industry instead of engine storage. You might notice buildings in the aisle, that's to show they could be set on removable panels. I also included 2 leads to the yard, one for going in, the other with coal and water service for steamer engines going out. There are also 2 straight-thru whickers for storing 2 large engines without turning,

@DoubleDAZ posted:

So, here's yet another version to mull over. This one has the 27" TT w/o RH. It can store 12 engines, 9 off the TT and 3 in the mini-yard in the lower right. The aisle is relatively tight with 2 lift-outs, but should allow access to deal with derailments, etc. I added space for an engine house in the main yard, but the tracks could be used for storage instead. The mini-yard could be converted for an industry instead of engine storage. You might notice buildings in the aisle, that's to show they could be set on removable panels. I also included 2 leads to the yard, one for going in, the other with coal and water service for steamer engines going out. There are also 2 straight-thru whickers for storing 2 large engines without turning,

Dave, you and John are making me want to add a turntable to my layout!    Naw!  I have enough to do to keep me busy for a long time without it! 

Dave, that's great!  Now that TT has something to do!

Thanks, John. Here's something really silly, 4 trains ready to run at all times, I needed a laugh.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Thanks, John. Here's something really silly, 4 trains ready to run at all times, I needed a laugh.

What's silly about that?

The difference is yours is out of the way and not taking up real estate that could be used for a town or something along the mainline. It is a different use of the space though.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

The difference is yours is out of the way and not taking up real estate that could be used for a town or something along the mainline. It is a different use of the space though.

That is true, i need a corner like john’s. Towns and mainline is for sure important. The decision is hard now lol i liked your turntable idea too it really does get some use with that redesign.

I still have a lot of open area for towns and industry, so I didn't miss the spot for the TT.

@DoubleDAZ

Thinking about this i love your silly idea but i know its space issues for me lol i dont have a nice big area to have those 4 trains ready to go but at least i have something here and space now for the TT and spurs w coal/mining industry kinda thing. I like the latest drawing, is there a way to turn on the layer for the train room or did you just seperate them? I wanted to kinda put them together so i have one big drawing. Also i never get bored with ideas that you folks have so if you or @gunrunnerjohn john come up with any more ideas i love to hear them. Silly ideas are good ideas too!

You mentioned "I also included 2 leads to the yard, one for going in, the other with coal and water service for steamer engines going out."

Is that the yard in the upper left which leads are going out, i only saw one going in or maybe i am not looking at it right lol its been a long day

I knew that was coming, so here's a combined file.

There are 2 lead tracks going to/from the TT; the 1st and 4th. The 1st goes past the water and coaling towers. If you turn the TT track for the 1st, it can then go straight through to a whisker track that can be sized for a larger engine. If you line up the TT track for the 4th, it can also go straight through to another whisker track that can also be sized for a large engine.

The reason for 2 leads is so a steam engine can be taking on water/coal while diesel engines can still use the TT. Yes, I know that's not absolutely needed, but it fits, so why not include it so you can simulate real operations? One caveat is I have no idea what coaling tower will fit, so you'd have to do some shopping.

I see the left yard operation like this:

A train traveling counterclockwise would back its cars into the 1st yard track and drop them for a yard engine to break down. Or, a main engine would back in to to the yard to pick up cars for a run around the layout.

If a train is traveling clockwise around the loop, a yard engine would come out of the yard and position itself just north of the blue switch. The train would pull directly into the 1st yard track where the engine would leave the cars before the switch, crossover to the 2rd yard track while the yard engine would push the cars in further and move excess cars to other yard tracks. The main engine would then exit the yard and return to the TT for storage or the engine house for service. Of course, this assumes the yard engine cleared the yard tracks.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

I knew that was coming, so here's a combined file.

There are 2 lead tracks going to/from the TT; the 1st and 4th. The 1st goes past the water and coaling towers. If you turn the TT track for the 1st, it can then go straight through to a whisker track that can be sized for a larger engine. If you line up the TT track for the 4th, it can also go straight through to another whisker track that can also be sized for a large engine.

The reason for 2 leads is so a steam engine can be taking on water/coal while diesel engines can still use the TT. Yes, I know that's not absolutely needed, but it fits, so why not include it so you can simulate real operations? One caveat is I have no idea what coaling tower will fit, so you'd have to do some shopping.

I see the left yard operation like this:

A train traveling counterclockwise would back its cars into the 1st yard track and drop them for a yard engine to break down. Or, a main engine would back in to to the yard to pick up cars for a run around the layout.

If a train is traveling clockwise around the loop, a yard engine would come out of the yard and position itself just north of the blue switch. The train would pull directly into the 1st yard track where the engine would leave the cars before the switch, crossover to the 2rd yard track while the yard engine would push the cars in further and move excess cars to other yard tracks. The main engine would then exit the yard and return to the TT for storage or the engine house for service. Of course, this assumes the yard engine cleared the yard tracks.

Thanks! thats pretty cool, i have to read this several times again to fully understand the operations but ill eventually get it, i got about 90% of it so far im just visualizing this in my head but this does seem really cool. I think we got a winner here, glad i broke down and gave up the 33" for the 27" so we could do this it makes for a more useful turntable. The altoonahouse would have been nice but what good is it if i cant use the turntable because its massive. One day when the basement is more free i can look at a 33" and a huge altoonahouse that covers 30 or 40 tracks lol if i can get that much in. I think what im going to do and something mark boyce said to do is buy a small amount and put it together then go from there. The way i see it is i have to buy the train room outer circle first and all related switches. I can start with that test it as i go and continue on. Once i get that outer circle done then i can start with the inner circles cross over and outer spurs but i will go slow on this in case i decide to remove a spur for a sceneary item or building. We shall see but i will only buy what i need to get done in a few days or a month or so and see what i have and run it for a bit and test and test again until i have a good feel for it.

The other thing is, i guess taking this file to a print place that has a huge plotter would be idea because the measurements and placement matters especially going through the wall. I need to get my carpentar to cut that tunnel hole first or the big view tunnel hole so i dont end up with drywall all over my new track. But i will need to highly depend on measurements, and somehow getting an accurate print out where i can put this down on my train room benchwork and line it up so we can get the hole right. Then i can start working on some rock molds and stuff on the wall first before i lay a bunch of track

Dave, be very careful building some parts in sections because of the cut track. If you can afford it, I encourage you to include the double crossover when you build the outside run, at least the part of the blue line that runs through it.

Also, I encourage you to cut the larger hole and reframe the studs because it can be patched. If you end up trying to fashion 2 separate tunnels I’m afraid you’ll run into trouble. I’m sure your carpenter can advise you how best to proceed. And one more thing, there isn’t a lot of clearance along the wall between the rooms, so be careful how much you build it up with rock molds, etc. you really need to dry fit the outside run. If it were me, I’d dry fit everything. You may find you need to shrink the width a bit.

SCARM will print a full-sized layout, but it takes a lot of paper. I’ve never used it, so I don’t know exactly how it works. That’s partly why I separated the 2 rooms into individual files, but you can delete whatever you don’t want printed so all you get is the tracks. You don’t have much empty space in the train room portion, so it might be worth checking out.

@DoubleDAZ

I may just buy the entire layout of the train room first and a few pieces through the wall. I get your point too and i saved up for at least 3.5K of this so that should get the train room stuff. Thanks for the tips on that, when you say dry fit that means get the track through and try it out?

I printed my layout plan.  It took a little over 100 - 8 1/2 x 11 sheets.  In the prevue, you can unselect any sheet you want.  My layout is 8 x 11 with a 4 x 6 operating area inside, that I didn't print.  I taped them together and built off them.  It worked out pretty well.

Dry fit means assembling the tracks, without cutting any, to make sure they fit the space and, in this case, are far enough from the wall between the rooms. If you’re going to add molded rock along that wall, the center rail has to be 3.5” from that, not just the wall, for the Big Boy to clear. In case you didn’t notice, the entire top run is the same distance from the wall now, no more adjustment past the switches, so I’m not concerned about clearance in the office room. There should be enough connected track for you to dry fit and leave spaces where cut track will go. I’m not familiar with Ross track, but the track lengths, especially curved tracks, might not be consistent and it’s better to find out now. I don’t know how others do it, but I always dry fitted my tracks before tacking them down. Plus, have you decided what roadbed you’re going to use. Sone folks dry fit and then draw an outline around the tracks so they can then mount the roadbed. I just worry when tracks need to be cut, especially curves, and I don’t know the experience level of the builder.

Oh, and you don’t have a large engine to confirm overhang clearance, so that worries me a bit too.

And based on what you said, there is a wedge of empty space between the table and the wall. It’s 2.13” from the wall on the upper left, but 3.29” on the upper right. That means it’s not parallel to the wall, but the track should be parallel to the wall, not the table edge.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I printed my layout plan.  It took a little over 100 - 8 1/2 x 11 sheets.  In the prevue, you can unselect any sheet you want.  My layout is 8 x 11 with a 4 x 6 operating area inside, that I didn't print.  I taped them together and built off them.  It worked out pretty well.

Awesome , I am going to buy an epson eco tank printer that way it saves me a lot in printing and my printer is on its last leg anyway. I may do a plotter at work tho and see if someone will let me print on it. If not i am looking at a wide printer it prints 13 x 19 size pages which will help.

EpsonEcoTank Pro
ET-16650

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Dry fit means assembling the tracks, without cutting any, to make sure they fit the space and, in this case, are far enough from the wall between the rooms. If you’re going to add molded rock along that wall, the center rail has to be 3.5” from that, not just the wall, for the Big Boy to clear. In case you didn’t notice, the entire top run is the same distance from the wall now, no more adjustment past the switches, so I’m not concerned about clearance in the office room. There should be enough connected track for you to dry fit and leave spaces where cut track will go. I’m not familiar with Ross track, but the track lengths, especially curved tracks, might not be consistent and it’s better to find out now. I don’t know how others do it, but I always dry fitted my tracks before tacking them down. Plus, have you decided what roadbed you’re going to use. Sone folks dry fit and then draw an outline around the tracks so they can then mount the roadbed. I just worry when tracks need to be cut, especially curves, and I don’t know the experience level of the builder.

Ok got it i understand now that makes sense. I got the dremel with the gyro cutter gargraves recommends to cut theirs so should work with ross and i have the remote cutting tool for the dremel so they i can use the “snake” piece to get a precise level cut. For roadbed i was thinking going with the ross bed as it fits their tracks perfectly unless you have experience  with another roadbed that maybe better? I know with ross it’s a plain color and i will probably have to spray paint it something that is like a stone speckle color or something.

Is the idea to have plywood which mine is 3/4 birch and  then mount the roadbed right ontop or should i have foam ontop the whole layout too then roadbed ? I have heard all sorts in this one some suggest homasot board ontop if plywood then foam etc

Not sure they best combo on that yet lol

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Oh, and you don’t have a large engine to confirm overhang clearance, so that worries me a bit too.

guess it’s time to buy a large one any suggestions on one ?

@DoubleDAZ posted:

And based on what you said, there is a wedge of empty space between the table and the wall. It’s 2.13” from the wall on the upper left, but 3.29” on the upper right. That means it’s not parallel to the wall, but the track should be parallel to the wall, not the table edge.

i’ll make sure to get the legs all level and the benchwork even with multiple measurements

@davehall83 posted:

Awesome , I am going to buy an epson eco tank printer that way it saves me a lot in printing and my printer is on its last leg anyway. I may do a plotter at work though and see if someone will let me print on it. If not I am looking at a wide printer it prints 13 x 19 size pages which will help.

EpsonEcoTank Pro
ET-16650

We have the Epson Eco Tank ET2760.  I printed the the layout plan with it.  We have had it for two years, and have only used about half the ink in the original filling.  If I had still been working at the phone company, I would have printed it on the plotter we had in Engineering.  One of the shortcomings of retiring when I did, but it was worth it. 

Dave,

Sorry, I’m mixed up the 2” with the 3” distance for the top left corner and thought the bench work was tilted more than it is. After taking another look at the measurements you posted, your current bench work is only off by .1”, so it might be off by .2” by the time the track reaches the far side of the office. I got the 2.13” on the left side mixed up with the 3.19” on the top. The top edge is 3.19” on the left and 3.29” on the right, so not a big deal. Plus, the latest version no longer moves the track closer to the top wall in the office room.

The track next to the dividing wall still bothers me a bit only because I’m not the one laying the track. 🤪 I’m not suggesting you buy an expensive engine. If John says his Big Boy navigates 3.5” from the wall, I believe him. So, if you make sure the center rail of track along the dividing wall is 3.5” from the wall, and any rock molding you add, I’m confident the Big Boy will work just fine. I just don’t like working with minimal clearances when it’s not me doing the work or having to deal with potential problems.

I also get nervous whenever there are cut tracks involved because you can’t completely dry fit things. There are 5 cuts tracks in the outer blue ring alone, on both the length and width. The top cut piece is 11.25” whereas the bottom cut piece is 11.92”, a 3/4” discrepancy. I assume that’s because the top connects to an O-72 switch and not a sectional O-72 curve like on bottom, but I don’t know that that’s the reason. If I replace the switch with a curve, it fits, so why are the cut pieces different lengths? I don’t like questions I can’t answer. 😱

And then there are the 2 cut curves on the inner blue arc with the double crossover. To cut those, the double crossover, 3” straights and curves leading up to the cut tracks have to be laid correctly. And those 2 cuts should be the same, they’re very close to a half curve. I have no doubt you’ll get it all connected, just pointing out areas of concern.

As far as roadbed, etc., are concerned, people who can find and afford Homasote either cover the whole layout or just put it under the tracks to cut down on noise. Cutting it is dusty and cutting it to just go under the tracks is probably wasteful. In your case with so much track, I don’t think it makes much sense to cut it. When it comes to foam, it’s used mainly to sculpture valleys and rivers. Again, some people cover the whole layout with 1”-2” foam. That’s mostly folks like you who build a flat table top. If you want a valley or river below track level, the track level has to be raised or the bench work built with varying elevations. If you recall what Tom said about an over/under, he said not all track has to go up 6” to make a 6” separation. Some track can go down 3” and the rest go up 3” for a total of 6”. Again, the main track can be raised 3” using foam, so some cam go down and others go up. Many who plan to have elevation changes use L-girder bench work with cookie-cutter sub-roadbed. But, it wouldn’t make sense to change what you have. However, if you intend to pursue elevation changes, you need to plan for that now. Early on I posted a design with the lower blue tracks lowered and the orange raised to where the blue track went under the orange track. I think I also showed just the bottom blue track raised. I think the amount was like 3” because you only have so much track after switches to work with. And if you decide to add foam, that affects how the wall gets opened. Some stuff you won’t be able to do if you don’t plan ahead.

One last thing. I don’t know if SCARM is designed to print to scale using anything but standard letter-apsides paper, so something to check.