Track pliers... which work best?

I have bought 2 pair off eBay. One pair (first pair bought) were described as good for both did not work on my 027 track. The other pair that was specifically listed as 027 work great. These are heavy electrical pliers that have been machined for the 027 track.

I use these to crimp new pins into track as well as tighten and form the open ends of the rails. In fact once my track is assembled I take the pliers and center over the track joint and crimp. This provides a very tight fitting connection. As I said they were bought on eBay but were described as being for 027 track.

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Lionel service manual says ST384 track pliers are for both 027 & O. How can that be since rail head diameter is so much larger on O?

When Lionel first introduced track pliers, they made seperate pairs for "O" and "027", numbered ST-342 and ST-384. Several years later they dropped the seperate pairs and went to a single pair, ST-384.

I purchased a cheap pair of reproduction pliers from Stan Orr many years ago. In order to get them to work nicely for "0" gauge, I had to modify the hole by enlarging it slightly. and recreating the little raised area that crimps the pin in place.

As far as I know, Lionel last offered track pliers somewhere around 1992-1993, when they put together a tool package with Hobby Horse. Some of the tools, including the track pliers and wheel pullers were available seperately for quite a while.

Here are good repro track pliers made for 027 and O.
http://www.ehobbytools.com/contents/en-us/p1.html

I always used a good pair of needle nose pliers. Never failed me in 35+ years.

I use them to pull the pins out, by leveraging the pliers on the bottom of the rails. They allow me to reshape the rails and tighten them around the pins. Never had any problems using them.

Don't spend the money if you have a good set of needle nose pliers.

Just my thoughts.

Mike R

I saw a pair at a show that had two spots. One was "o" the other was "o27". Don't know who made them.

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Don't spend the money if you have a good set of needle nose pliers.

I used needle nose pliers for years, and had a technique for crimping the pins using a pair of nippers.
A properly made pair of track pliers are easier to use, and do a good job.

quote:

Originally posted by Susan Deats:
Here are good repro track pliers made for 027 and O.
http://www.ehobbytools.com/contents/en-us/p1.html

I've used that brand of track pliers for four years and found them to be of good quality.

I bought Olsen's track pliers for O27 and O, they work fine for me. They were $8.95 and show up regularly on eBay. As mentioned, they take some Chinese electricians pliers and machine the proper size track outline in the jaws.

Thanks Strogey, That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks to the others as well. I've been using needle nose & wire cutters for years & I want better than that. I know from metal working it would take compression from all sides to actually reform the track exactly. Even track pliers can't do that, but at least they would help even out the track & reform/reround the railhead.
Thanks again.
Very best, Don Johnson

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I know from metal working it would take compression from all sides to actually reform the track exactly. Even track pliers can't do that

your comment is exactly why I have never bought a pair of O27 track pliers. I, like some mentioned above, still use an old pair of needle nose.

I can't seem to resolve in my mind how just squeezing a track with a pin already inserted in it can compress the track enough to make the pin tight and secure.

What I usually do is to, using needle nose, compress the opening without a pin being in it, making the hole a bit too small. I then lightly tap the pin into the opening. This makes it about as tight as it can get.

I'd like to try a pair of pliers and see if they work as well as some mentioned here. I just am not going to buy a pair and be disappointed though, so I stick with my tried-and-true.

- walt

Needle nose work perfectly. Save your money. You can pinch the rail from the end just below the pin hole to reduce it's diameter. The further you slide the pliers onto the rail, the smaller the hole will be (so you can adjust for any track).

Plus you will also want to pinch the tab on the ties a little so they clamp the rails tighter. This keeps the rail from spreading once the pin is installed making for a very dependable joint.

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Needle nose work perfectly. Save your money. You can pinch the rail from the end just below the pin hole to reduce it's diameter. The further you slide the pliers onto the rail, the smaller the hole will be (so you can adjust for any track).

Plus you will also want to pinch the tab on the ties a little so they clamp the rails tighter. This keeps the rail from spreading once the pin is installed making for a very dependable joint.

SB: that's exactly the method that I use. Your last comment about pinching the tab on the ties is an important one that I only recently learned.

- walt

quote:

Originally posted by walt rapp:
What I usually do is to, using needle nose, compress the opening without a pin being in it, making the hole a bit too small. I then lightly tap the pin into the opening. This makes it about as tight as it can get.

I do the same thing, but I use the track pliers to squeeze them. Then I take the pin and tap it into the end with the side of the pliers, usually makes them nice and tight. Before inserting the pin, I dip it in some DeoxIT D5 to help conductivity.

quote:

Originally posted by walt rapp:
SB: that's exactly the method that I use. Your last comment about pinching the table on the ties is an important one that I only recently learned.

- walt

I just figured that one out this past weekend at my parents house with a bad section of o27.

Ok, I'm going to buy both 027 & O track pliers. Strogey posted a report that made good sense. I'll post a report. However, I would you believe us if I said they work better than needle nose?
Truth be told I'm quite looking forward to getting some.
Sure needle nose work fine. However, I've worked with various metal forming dies etc. I can say without question if no pin is in rail,and... if the pilers were the correct size it would reform the metal quite well. The stretched metal would be forced into the web & the foot would end up slightly lower. That wouldn't be an issue. If the pin is in place & the pliers work the metal under the pin just so, it would indeed put the pin in tension & be tight.
By the way, I have the hose clamp pliers one person mentioned. They don't work well at all. The jaw is too narrow where the groove is & the groove dips inward to hold the clamping ring tips of the hose clamp. At the same time the groove is too large for 027.
Very best, Don Johnson

Here is a pair of early MPC track pliers on Ebay. These were made available in the early to mid 1970's. I am not, nor do I know the seller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGIN...&hash=item45ff9ccd16

superotrackdon: I'm REALLY looking forward to your review of the O27 pliers. Please remember to offer it.

- walt

Hi Walt, Trust me, I will buy them & will review them. Keep this thread in you email. Will be a good 2 weeks, but I won't forget.
Very best, Don Johnson

I have a set of the O27 ones too, but since I've moved all the O27 stuff out for O31, I don't really use those. The grinding I did was just to take a little material off the tip of the jaws, the track forming insert was a little too deep in the jaws. Five minutes with the grinder and all was well.

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I got these due to I felt they had a good grind on the end.

Don,

What is meant by 'grind'?

- thanks

Hey,

I know that this is a little off-topic, but has anyone used the t-tracker "The easy way to assemble and disassemble track"?

any updates??

thanks - walt

As mentioned above, a good pair of "needle-nose" pliars (mine are USA made) and a good pair of "diagonal cutters" (Exelite) combined with a track pin work as well or better than a pair of so-called "track pliars".

I have a pair of track pliars, and they are somewhat useful.

I have been using a 4 inch pair of nipper pliers for 027. I find them better than needle nose or diagonal pliers for going around the rail and pinching the track below the pin to tighten the pins.

Cheap nipper pliers for this low tech usage can be had at Harbor Freight and are often in these small 5 or so set of pliers from China.

Charlie

Hi Charlie, I actually went by Harbor Frieght Sat. & bought a bunch of pliers. I found I could use the drill press & drill them. I made a few pairs of my liking. They work quite well. Remarkably well. I had to go though 30 pairs to get 4 good ones. Most have the "teeth" going at too much an angle & the drill will follow that. Also depending on where the teeth start, the smooth end is too close to the teeth & there is then not much plier to reach the rail web. I also go some needle nose pliers, again cheapos. My thought was to cut the ends well back & then drill them. This way no teeth to deal with. Size of hole is a little more complicated that it may seem as there is some spring back of the tin. I did on pair for O track drilling #29 hole. Worked quite well in resizing the rail. Very well indeed. However, I found with rail in place the hole needs to be a whisker smaller to tighten pin.
I put tracks together with various loosness of pins. Crimped in place, then pulled apart to see how tight. Compared this to track where I reformed end with track in hand. I could never get installed track as tight, but for sure tight enough & then some.
On the pair I made so far, you can take a really, really out of shape end, give it a squeeze & presto, nice new shape. Honest, that easy. The end of pliers are 1/2" wide, so it may take 2 grabs being pin goes in more than 1/2 deep if you know what I mean.
I'm still perfecting hole size & the gap I'm grinding into end of jaws to compensate for rail web.
However, as it is after giving the rail 2 squeezes per rail the section fits nearly as tight as new. No joke!
I've done several sections. Takes aprox. 6 seconds per track section. That fast!
Gotten busy this week. I expect to have them perfected over the next 2 weeks or less. I'll photo all, before & after, both 027 & O tracks.
Very best, Don Johnson

Have a question... Does anybody have any genuine Lionel track pliers? I would like to know the exact hole size in whatever genuine pair you have. Also how far from edge (or center) of hole the end of the jaws are. Please state the Lionel ST # on pliers also.
Maybe a good way to size hole is with a drill bit. If you don't have bit the exact size, what bit goes & no goes. I'd like to know to the thousandths if possible.
I don't want to know about aftermarket ones, just genuine. Close detailed photos would be really nice also. Your help is appreciated.
Very best, Don Johnson

I have restored more 027 tube track from the 50's than I wanna admit. I hated to blow out $25 to $35 for track pliers, so I have always used a pair of needled nosed and done like others - I remove the pin, buff any rust off using the wire brush off a Dremel, cleaned out the hole using tiny grinder tools that have a small grinding nodes on the end, (always get a little puff of rust) put the pin back and crimped the rail with the pliers where the "T" forms under the pin and then crimp the pin with a slight compression of the tube with small wire cutters.

One advantage of the needle-nose and side-cutters vs. the various "track pliars" is that they work on ALL sizes of tinplate rail.

The website reads for O-Gauge and O27 type track with the crimping nib and made in U.S.A. Has anyone used this track plier and how well does it work?

http://www.ehobbytools.com/contents/en-us/d5.html

The ehobbytools pliers mentioned in the above post are "machined" in the USA. I believe the pliers themselves are cast overseas, probably in China, then sent to a jobber in the States where the machining of the gripping end takes place.

I would gladly pay more for a USA forged and machined pair of track pliers, Klien, Diamond, Craftsman, etc.

Johnsgg1, thanks for your reply. I didn't realize. I still would like to see a review on the pliers describing how well they work on OGauge tubular track.

My cheapies from Olsen's seem to work just fine after taking some material off the nose to give better spacing of the track notch.

Hi Charles, It is my feeling after studying the photos, especially #2 that the pliers are sized to 027. If you use 027 size pliers on O rail it will egg shape the rail up/down ways. While the pin may fit tight, it will leave a bump at the top. Obvously, that's no good. It may well be Lionel made the hole small on purpose?? So they could use on 027. That's exactly why I wanted the exact hole size. I will restate how well track pliers work. You will never use needle nose again if you have the proper size pliers.
Now the other part is how far the hole is from end. On 027 on the center rail the crimp/insulator gets in the way so the hole must be correct distance from end.
I got the cheapies from Olsen's as well. As John's pair the hole was way too far from the end so they cannot be used at all. John & I have grinders, so we can fix, but what about the poor soul that gets the pilers & find they won't work. They just loose & give pliers a bad name.
I've now resized several sections of track & there is no distortion or wear on the pliers or the last tooth next to the hole bending back. These pliers cost 2.99 & are what most of the sellers make their's from from the photos.
Speaking of the photos, the ones from Olsen's in the photo would work just perfectly. They are machined correctly. However the ones sent are not good at all, as I said the hole is too far back. A good 3/16" too far back. Plus the pair sent was not the same style as pictured. Bad!! They should email me & ask if I still want them if different at least. Actually they should repost correct photo.
I contacted Olsen's several days ago. Still no reply. I'd avoid those if you can't get the end ground down if needed. The hole dia. seems ok. The odd thing is, these things are not complicated. I don't get it. Why don't they just make a jig & drill them?? Ok, acutally any hardened pliers would need an end cutting carbide end mill to drill. On these that's not needed.
Very best, Don Johnson

Don, after reading your post I emailed a question to ehobbytools about their pliers. I will post their reply when received. Thanks for your help.

Hi Charles, Good. Looking forward to their responce. I now have learned you need to ask them to put pliers to both 027 & O track & see what size rail they truly fit. If you really are serious I could make you a pair for whatever rail you want, understanding 1 pair cannot fit both. Email me off list.
Very best, Don Johnson

To: questions@ehobbytools.com
Your website description reads for O27 & OGauge track. If you use O27 size pliers on O rail, it will egg shape the rail up/down. I'm trying to find the right pliers. Are your pliers sized for OGauge tubular track?


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Questions Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 10:58 PM
Hello, our pliers are not reshapes, you would have the pin in the track and it crimps underneath the track to hold the pin in tighter. The pliers are only for tubular track, Thanks eHobbyTools

Hi Charles, There you have it... What kind of answer is that? My guess is the person that replied has never actually used track pliers in their life. If they would have had a direct answer to the type rail they were intended for.
I'll photo next week. That will show all you need/want to know. You will be surprised at how good mine work. And... they are sized for the track they are intended for. Will be late next week.
Very best, Don Johnson

quote:

What kind of answer is that?

I'm glad that you offered that question Don!! I was thinking the exact same thing - that they never answered Charles' question at all. I guess the person is destined to be in politics

- walt

The track pliers are just another weapon in the pin tightening arsenal, for tube track enthusiasts they're handy to have around. I have found that the crimping end of my cheapo ratshack wire cutter/stripper/crimper comes in handy also.

Pete

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Hi Charles, There you have it... What kind of answer is that?

IMHO its a reasonable answer.
I'd expect that most of the folks participating on this board would have absolutely no problem using a pair of track pliers to reform track ends. But one does have to know enough to put a pin (or something similar) in the end of the track, and use a little finesse to get the shape right.

And if someone knows how to use track pliers to easily reshape the track ends for "O" and "027" switches, and/or UCS uncoupling tracks, I'd appreciate reading about it.

If they claimed that the pliers would reshape the rails, there would surely be complaints from folks expecting magic.

Hi CW, Respectfully, you are not correct. If the track pliers are correct for the track you do not need to have a pin in the track at all. The pliers simply reshape the tin to round rail head & flat web. If the foot is distorted, you need to straighten that seperately with the smooth end of track pliers as you would with regular pliers.
It takes no skill at all to reshape the rail. Simply start back near the tie tie crimp & work towards end. Usally 2 squeezes is all it takes. Often only 1. Most often the foot comes back into place also. It is most easy to reform with no pin.
The user must have enough grip to squeeze hard enough. Doesn't take much to reform the rail. I know the average train person can do it with one hand. However... In place rail takes a harder squeeze. Probably 2 hands in worst case. If a person is feeble they would need to get help.
CW, if you used the pliers you'd understand how they work & form. The folks at the hobby shop would also.
From what I can see in the photos the pliers shown would reform rail nicely without a pin. I would need to see them gripped tight on the rail to know for sure though. The hole size & how far the hole is from the end determines what track they will work on. Again from the photo the construction looks good.
Very best, Don Johnson
Very

quote:

CW, if you used the pliers you'd understand how they work & form. The folks at the hobby shop would also.

I've only been using track pliers for the past twenty five years.
When the ends are significantly distorted, the pin acts as an anvil and the techniques I mentioned are required.

I put a pin in if the ends are really bent up as well, it does make it a lot easier to get the track right.

What stops the track from "relexing back" some after squeezing it tight? "Reflexing" is probably a poor word choice but I can't think of a better word.

Answering that question in my own mind is THE main reason that I never bought a pair of the pliers.

It's also why, when a tubular rail opening gets "too big" and I want to resize it, I do it without a pin. I use needle nose BTW. I make the hole smaller than the pin and then tap the pin in. If I leave the pin in and try squeezing the rail under the pin, the rail opens back up some.

thanks - walt

The pin in the hole is only when the end is sufficiently malformed that the pliers won't do a decent job, if I'm just closing up the end a bit, I don't put a pin in. As C.W. mentioned, it serves as a shaping anvil and allows you to form the track without screwing the end up further.

Hi CW, Please accept my appologies. I didn't mean to sound rude or harsh. It seems we have a differece in how we use the tools. That is fine.
I'm glad you mentioned your pliers again. I went back & reread the posts.
What size rail did you modify your pliers for? What size did you enlarge your hole to? Do you feel the ridge in the hole that crimps the pin is useful? What has your experiance been with tightening pins on installed track.
All my holes are smooth inside. I'm thinking the #29 hole I did would be more versatile if it was a bit smaller. Not sure how much smaller yet.
I don't seem to need a pin in the hole yet for resizing. Even the really bad ones come back nicely.
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, So, you have the whole set. That is fantastic! If you were going to do a detailed review of them all what would you say? Would be great to know how they all work on different rails, with/without pins etc.
What size is the hole in the Lionel-Krauter ones? I've never seen a genuine pair in my life. From the photos on ebay it looked like the latest pairs were very different from the old post war ones. Or.. was the ends broken/damaged??
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi Walt, Just as you think the rail does spring back. However, the strech/compression of the tin is greater than the spring back, so the pin is tightened. A pin that can be wiggled with a finger will feel tight after squeezing. I find I have to squeeze hard. I find the much smaller hole pliers works better for installed track.
On the pliers I made, the hole is a bit smaller than the rail head to compensate for that when resizing rail pin out.
I will say it plainly, I haven't been able to make an in place pin as tight as it would be if the rail is resized pin out. I bought some new Lionel O track to use as a control. The resized track is still not quite as tight as new track. However if resized with pin out, rail fits quite tight. Would not need to be tighter. Very hard to push together by hand.
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, Wow! That is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Very interesting the hole sizes. It seems with the 384 Lionel was trying to split the difference so to speak. I guess to get by with only 1 size for both rails.
I'll do a little more work tomorrow night & see what I can come up with.
Interesting observation of rail construction I noticed today. Looking at the bottom of the rail foot, on O track some straight rail the web has a gap wide enough to put a buisness card in. Others have no gap. New (China) straights have very wide gap. Curves have practically no gap at all. 027 is mostly no gap straight or curve. I have no idea why the variation. I have noticed on the no gap track, it's harder to tighten installed pins.
Very best, Don Johnson

quote:

Hi Walt, Just as you think the rail does spring back. However, the strech/compression of the tin is greater than the spring back, so the pin is tightened. A pin that can be wiggled with a finger will feel tight after squeezing. I find I have to squeeze hard. I find the much smaller hole pliers works better for installed track.
On the pliers I made, the hole is a bit smaller than the rail head to compensate for that when resizing rail pin out.
I will say it plainly, I haven't been able to make an in place pin as tight as it would be if the rail is resized pin out. I bought some new Lionel O track to use as a control. The resized track is still not quite as tight as new track. However if resized with pin out, rail fits quite tight. Would not need to be tighter. Very hard to push together by hand.

Thank you for the added review comments Don!

- walt

Hi Guys, Sorry I didn't post any photos or progress. Kind of got side tracked by car problems. (automobile, not train cars). Will have another go at it next week.
Very best, Don Johnson

Ok. Finally I was able to photo my track piler project. Here is links to the photos. I think this will clearify how they work. All the track was just regular track from train shows. No tricks or games. This is the real deal.




If these don't print, can somebody help & post them here. Thanks.
Very best, Don Johnson

Sorry, photos didn't transfer. Help! Here are the 3 files. I couldn't get them to take in just 1 file.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/7852944327
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4762944327
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4762944327
Thanks, Don Johnson

A pair of original 027 Track Pliers are on Ebay this week. The two large notches in the cutting section, towards the hinge are not original. The small notch in the cutting section towards the end is original. They aren't mine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320833...eName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Hi again, Sorry, I didn't post the 3rd photo set correctly. Here is the 3rd set of straightening a bent rail end.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...3102703/m/4772944327
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi CW, Thanks for the link. You have a set like those. How well do they work on 027? Can they tighten a loose pin on installed track?
Very best, Don Johnson

Hi All, Did you see the photos? What do you think? I guess I expected some feed back on your thoughts about how the pilers work. How does this compare with needle nose?
Very best, Don Johnson

I'm still on the fence on how "reflex" reaction doesn;t come into play!

One thing that I apprectiated about the photos, because I wanted to ask a question about it, is how the pair with the hole near the tip of the pliers functioned on the center rail with the insulation piece. Seems that it does.

Thanks for posting

- walt

Hi Walt, Of course reflex comes into play. I drilled my hole #29 drill (.134"). Now, that is a bit smaller than O rail head (aprox. .140"). At the same time the jaws have some clearance ground top & end. More clearance at end for rail web clearance. When looking close at my pliers the hole becomes slightly oval after grinding. So all told, the over squeeze, reflexes back to a good fit & shape. I know you can understand that.
Now, with installed track you have the pin that stops the squeeze short. That is very true. However, a good hard squeeze still gives some shape to a tighter fitting pin than it was. I can't really say for sure, but my feeling is the compression & stretch of the tin around the installed pin is enough to compensate for reflex. Keeping in mind the rail tin is quite soft, it doesn't have a dramatic amout of reflex. As I said before the pin is not nearly as tight as if no pin in while reforming. Not even close. However, it's tight enough to make good electrical contact.
Now curves are different. Installed pins tighten quite well. I feel this is due to the straight fit of pliers on curved rail tends to straigten the rail ever so slightly, resulting in a nice tight fit. I full well realize pins are all straight, but the rail still curves at the ends.
Very best, Don Johnson

Thanks Don.

- walt

Hi Walt, I'm going to train show Sunday & think I'll get a different pair of pliers. We'll see how they turn out.
Later next week I hope to move onto the 027 pliers. Olsens is suppose to be sending me another pair drilled correctly. I got an email from Sharon the other day, so I expect them here mid next week.
I know you intrest was 027.
Very best, Don Johnson

I have a totally different approach to keeping the pins tight. Holding a track section with the pins pointing away from me, I bend the left rail where the pin is installed to the left and the center rail to the right. I bend the rails to offset the end of the pin about half of its diameter. I don't have to reform the open end of the rails and only have to do this operation once. Once the rails are bent, I can disassemble and reassemble the track sections as many times as I want to without using any pliers. This is a permanent fix. I wish I had thought of it 50 years ago. This not only makes a tight fit of the pin into the open of the mating track section, but makes the pin fit tight in the rail where it is installed. It is important for a good connection that there be some pressure on the pin and socket. The inside of the rails where the pins make contact must be clean and free of rust in any event.

Needless to say, I don't have any track pliers. If I want to crimp a rail to hold a pin, I use a pair of ordinary crimping pliers normally used for wire terminals. I come under the pin with the pliers almost parallel to the track section. The track pliers would work better, but I don't do this very often.

Hi CW, Way off subject of track pliers, but do have a genuine Lionel press clincher tool ST350-11?
If so I need to see a photo of the clincher end of it. If possible.
Anybody else that may have one, feel free to post photo also in case CW doesn't have one.
Thanks much.
Very best, Don Johnson