Transmission Fluid

Stop using WD-40 as well.  It's bad stuff.  Sure, it works great for getting that stuck bolt loose, but it will also cause rust.  I had several metal things that got rusty and I would clean with WD-40.  Then I was told about how it causes rust and I stopped using it, making sure I cleaned the items with soap and water to get all the WD-40 off.  My metal items never rusted again.

 That's because it's a wax base fluid. As in the first post he probably

 saw better connectivity because he wiped the crud off. Not because ATF

 conducts. Wrong conclusion.

That was my point exactly.

I don't think it is a Wax based...as in primary ingredient.  Paraffin's are a small percentage then other ingredients for this type of automotive lubricant.  G

I'm well versed on the conductive nature of non-polar materials (as I'm sure this material is), and not a bit surprised ATF will not conduct electrical current on its own.  That's not what's going on here.

And, I am not adverse to having oils (light or heavy) in proximity with my expensive equipment.  I do that every time I lube engines, rolling stock, or anything else.  Caution and care need to be employed as in any application of oils or greases.  But sooner or later those lubricants will migrate to the track, along with dust, cat hair, plaster, oily fingers, and god knows what else.  If left unattended long enough it makes that black paste my father used to peel off the wheels with a pen knife.  

As they say, we've come a long way, and there is no substitute for clean rails (DCS has made me a believer).  But, I'm not perfect, and my rails will never pass a white glove test for long, if ever.  This application, if done sparingly, seems to keep things in a nice suspension, allowing for good conductivity, until the next track-cleaning car comes along.  And when it does, the rails are even cleaner.  Use it, don't use it, it's an individual call.  

I hope this has been of some help.

quote:

Stop using WD-40 as well.  It's bad stuff.  Sure, it works great for getting that stuck bolt loose, but it will also cause rust.  I had several metal things that got rusty and I would clean with WD-40.  Then I was told about how it causes rust and I stopped using it, making sure I cleaned the items with soap and water to get all the WD-40 off.  My metal items never rusted again.

I think this is the first time I've read a statement that WD-40 causes rust. I generally do not use WD-40 on trains. I do use it to protect many of my tools, especially the ones that stay out in the garage. The WD-40 has to be reapplied on occasion, it certainly does seem to protect the tools from rust.
Update: I had to look on the web. There are a number of discussions on the issue. Here is a thread from home machinest.

Let's face the facts, PLEASE! ATF is just that..ATF. Hopefully you know what it stands for. It doesn't say, "Toy Train Fluid". Well, Does It?? ATF is not a lubricant in any sense of the word. Think of it as a detergent based hydraulic fluid. One of it's uses in the automotive industry is a heavy duty parts cleaner. In my home garage I'm required to keep it in a locked cabinet with other hazardous chemicals. Do I want it in my home or anywhere near my vintage trains???.....NO.

Years ago in HO there was fad of using Wahl hair clipper oil on tracks to keep them clean and help with electrical contact. I never had much luck with oil on a track myself. I have tried the hair trimmer oil on the center rail in hopes of slowing the wear on Marx sliding pickup shoes, but it seemed to collect dirt quicker. Now all I use is 90 proof, weight, percent, whatever rubbing alcohol to clean the rails and nothing else is applied. Trains run great and I still haven't worn out any pickup shoes!!

ATF will not find a home with my trains. Unless I find one with hydraulic drive that actually needs ATF!  

My uncle Dominic stopped drinking Coco-Cola after he saw it used to clean battery terminals.

If transmission fluid is so dangerous, why doesn't it eat through the plastic bottles it is sold in or dissolve Bruce's super street plastic track roadbed?

Pete,

   Never going to happen here on the PCRR.  Some of these guys are better of in Ho for sure.

PCRR/Dave

Hello,Using transmission fluid as a lubricant is as old as my Flying Yankee is,probably older.It is a heavier lubricant,and was used by many hobby shops and department stores in the 40-50's,during Christmas Season when the trains ran constantly.Using it in the place of light oil,meant that the trains could be lubricated less often,due to it's superior lubricating properties,and it's ability to stay where you put it.  

I don't know how it does on the newer trains,but on anything pre or postwar it is a superior choice of lubricant.Remember,Lionel themselves said to use a little petroleum jelly,if no other lubricant was around!!!

As far as a track cleaner,I have not used it for this purpose.But it is a great lubricant!!!!

Just as our trains have changed since the '50's, so have the formulations of ATF.

Not a good idea at all!!!

Tom B

Ahh Yes....I forgot that most of the new stuff has PLASTIC gears,which ATF would not be a good choice of lubricant for. 

quote:

If transmission fluid is so dangerous, why doesn't it eat through the plastic bottles it is sold in or dissolve Bruce's super street plastic track roadbed?

Is that how dangerous materials are identified, whether they can eat through plastic?

I don't know how dangerous automatic transmission fluid is. I know that I don't want it inside my house, or near my trains.
By the way, these days, there are different types of ATF. Use the wrong one, and you might be in for some very expensive repairs.

Look, I asked this question in good faith.  So let me rephrase it:   If transmission fluid is so bad for plastic, why doesn't eat through the bottle, or eat through Bruce's super street plastic roadbed, or destroy the non-metallic parts of a transmission?

No one is asking anyone to use transmission fluid with trains against their will!

Any chemical engineers out there have an answer to my questions?

Take care, Joe.

Yes it is a lubricant, an a very good one in certain applications.  Those automatic transmissions actually have gears in them.

I have even used it in motorcycle racing motors with manual clutch.  Less friction, and improved short shift characteristics under harsh out door motocross conditions where the clutch is constantly being feathered and the shift sometime occur without using the clutch.  G

quote:

Look, I asked this question in good faith

Fair enough. (I'll stand by my comment though)
I am not a chemical engineer. But I do know there are many different types of plastic, and many types of lubricants.

I find it interesting that my zoomspout plastic bottle of turbine oil has held its contents for over twenty years without leaking or oozing, but when I transferred some of the oil to a precision oiler with a plastic bottle, the oil oozed through the container.

Take a look at this web page on lubricating plastics. Somewhere within the document, it mentions that using the wrong oil can cause a plastic part to fail. Maybe that is why some folks have their plastic gears split, and others don't.

Pappry, remember that not only does ATF have a hydraulic function, it also lubes transmission bearings.

Just out of curiosity...did any of your rolling stock on that layout have plastic wheels?  They are the biggest crud-producers of all, especially in the 2-rail realm.

Several of our (LHS) HO/N customers have had good success with it.

However, our best sales of Rail-Zip...by word-of-mouth, apparently...are to the R/C airplane crowd!...them that fly the BIG stuff!!  Several of those guys tow a specially equipped trailer that stores their planes/equipment.  The claim is that Rail-Zip applied sparingly to the trailer electrical plug contacts keeps them in A-1 reliability.  Hey, it's sort of like washing oily ducks with DAWN detergent, I suppose....another  use.

All in all, I'm with the keep-it-clean-and-you'll-be-OK crowd.  I'm not fond of any residual product applied to rails for any reason.  But, TEHO.  That's part of what keeps this rock from wobbling on its axis, I suppose.

 Hi Joe....

 The guy who told me about the transmission fluid was a manager at GM at the

 time at the transmission plant here in Yipsi. He had many of the same questions ,

 so his answer was based on what the chemical engineer at the time told him.

 He also did repairs for Lionel here in Detroit at at the time. So I'm sure that was the  premise of his inquiry.

Don't get me wrong. I use isopropyl alcohol 99% of the time.

But when I need to do some industrial cleaning I get out the heavy stuff.

I have more problems with cheap and defective stuff than dirty track...

I've seen no evidence that Rail-Zip is ATF, so the comparison based simply on the appearance is flawed IMO.

Dangerous is a relative term. On my 1-10 scale it doesn't even register, but then I am a chemist that crosses over a lot of sub-fields that use a lot of "specialized" materials.

As for why it doesn't go through the plastic bottles, there is a near infinite number of types of "plastic".  Not all "plastic" is created equal. 

Some  are incredibly resistant to one chemical and dissolve in the next.  I store hydrochloric acid in PE and glass, but hydrofluoric goes in a special plastic as it will etch glass.  Fluoroboric acid is in a plastic bottle.

It all depends on the materials being stored as to what sort plastic "polymer" it can be stored it.

BTW, hilarious on the Coca-Cola story - there's a good bit of phosphoric acid in it that's nowhere near as acidic as what in your stomach right now.  It is handy for that use, but you 'd be better served cleaning battery terminals that are corroded (usually from acid..) with a little bicarb of soda from your kitchen to neutralize the surface while cleaning it.

Hi Bruce,

     Thanks for the info!  When I feel ambitious and have the pocket change, I am going to get a bottle of ATF and see how Delrin (from a broken Lionel truck), styrene, nylon gears (have some ruined Bachamann HO stuff), a piece of ABS, and some other scrap plastic does if I soak it for a few days in the stuff.   Need to see for myself!

    Always keep Snoopy safe! 

Take care, Joe

Hi MBW,

   I have many crazy uncle stories!  (I had another uncle who swore that all you needed to do was change oil filters, not oil, just add oil when needed to your car.  Well, one day his engine froze up in a car just a few years old.  He also didn't believe carbon monoxide was dangerous.) 

   Thanks for the info!  I should have realized not all plastic is the same.  Just the other day I had some mineral spirits (from its original plastic jug) soften and leak from a disposable plastic cup. 

Take care, Joe

And we're off....again.

WD40 is harmless and achieves the same result; every few weeks just wipe the track with

it (don't squirt it on!). Helps prevent rust on steel track (GG; Lionel/Marx) in areas not used often or seldom used layouts.

This comes from:

- personal experience

- Lionel's service department; if you want to argue with them, I really don't know what to say.

Hmmm ATF on my track. Gee what could possibly go wrong with that? Of course this from a guy who has trouble hitting the smoke stack without getting runs down the side of his engine.

what ever electrical conductivity atf increases will soon be diminished  by the amount of crud that sticks and accumulates on the rails. clean rails are happy rails

I recently acquired a tub full of old model railroad magazines.  In one of them is an extensive article about using tranny fluid.  I will try to find it but the end result was that they liked it.  The test was quite extensive.

I will try to find it.

I use the CRC 2-26 and have had no issues.  So I am sticking to it.

http://img.directindustry.com/...-sheet-101617_1b.jpg

One thing you need to know. In the old days tranny fluid and motor oil had a wax base, i would not use the new stuff on my track. Back in the day you had 2 types of tranny fluid, type A and type F. Type F was used in Fords.

I just wish the stories owner, would re-post the explanation.

Short term WD-40, its ok.

Long term I'll disagree all day, all night.

  I had a whole tool box ruined by changing from oil to WD-40 then leaving alone for the winter. For fifteen years of oiling, all was fine.

I'll need color photos of elves, or gremlins with water buckets, to have my opinion turned.

What about that loco I don't use, and forget about.

I use it to clean, and displace moisture, but follow with a better lube, designed to lube.

 I can see the trans fluid working well enough if ATF used sparingly. With all the different chemicals and detergents one brand is bound to cause issues, others may be fine.

 Most will be cleaning messes up from smoke fluids anyhow

I don't see it being much more, or less an issue, than some normal oils could be.

 I know other that use the trailer wire trick on boat trailers. They get dunked in water, and then not used for a while. It helps tons. 

 If the plastics we encounter are the same as those for store in bottles, I'd say your pretty safe.

But I don't think its close.

Same for wires that will become brittle in the long run, when in contact with ATF. No heat needed.

 Different plastics react differently to different chemicals. 

Stoshu. I'm just down 94, first exit past those jets, near the tracks.  

The magazine I referred to above with the extensive article on tranny fluid is Model Railroader May 2011. Starts on page 58.

Any limited gain in electrical conductivity is offset by eventual, early damage to traction tires.