Turkey Hollow Railroad - under construction - 12/3/21 update

Except for your very last graphic, all the others came through like this.

Mr. Genius Software Engineer forgot to save before posting!   All better I believe.

This is a very impressive undertaking Dan which will afford you many decades of enjoyment. Since you are not sure about how things will unfold, scenically and operationally, I would suggest removing the furring strips and painting the wall blue. This will afford you flexibility as you progress. I was very pleased with the result from using Sherwin-Williams “cloudless”. You can get cloud stencils, or create them free hand, along the upper area of the wall. Depending upon how your empire evolves, you can incorporate an appropriate flat for that area of the wall.  Of course you can incorporate backdrops that you purchase.An excellent resource that I found is a book by CJ Riley entitled, “Realistic Layouts Use The Art of Illusion to Model Like a Pro”. It has given me a different perspective on looking at things.

My experiences with trains in my youth were always in a rural, small town setting so I don't have any connection to larger industries and cities. The general theme will be of a small, spur line that services freight in and out of the mythical region known as Turkey Hollow.

Here is the current track plan for the lower level, it loops forever or reverses only to the direction needed to access the upper level. The curves are 080 and 096 on the exposed right side. The right side is mostly hidden with 080 and 072 curves.

I can post anyRail files if there is interest but I don't have SCARM, sorry. I am starting with over 100 feet of Atlas O and some Ross switches I already have that will be most of the upper layer track. This plan mixes in Ross and Gargraves flex track as well in case I get tired of waiting for Atlas O track.

Adding in the transition to the second level at 9", maximum grade planned is 2.4%, and mostly hidden in back until it is high enough, around 7", to clear the first level and hopefully emerge from a tunnel portal around there. This is at the bottom of the image. From that portal to the connection with the upper layer on the lift table there is less than 1% slope so there will be some visual for viewing from the left. The plan is for 4" clearance between the wall and ties on the right side.

I'm posting the second level track plan by itself as it gets too busy to see with the lower track. It can loop forever on either inside or outside track. The inner track provides a loop back only in the direction needed to  go back to the lower level. You can see the engine shed near the top and two sides for parking/servicing up to four engines. The current plan is to park a switcher, sd-40 maybe, on the short track at the end of the yard.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

This is a very impressive undertaking Dan which will afford you many decades of enjoyment. Since you are not sure about how things will unfold, scenically and operationally, I would suggest removing the furring strips and painting the wall blue. This will afford you flexibility as you progress. I was very pleased with the result from using Sherwin-Williams “cloudless”. You can get cloud stencils, or create them free hand, along the upper area of the wall. Depending upon how your empire evolves, you can incorporate an appropriate flat for that area of the wall.  Of course you can incorporate backdrops that you purchase.An excellent resource that I found is a book by CJ Riley entitled, “Realistic Layouts Use The Art of Illusion to Model Like a Pro”. It has given me a different perspective on looking at things.

Jay, if not for my wife that is pretty much what I would have done. I'm not confident in creating scenery mostly because I've never done it and still learning where/how to start. Based on what I described to my wife as my theme for Turkey Hollow she suggested a backdrop of hills and trees. And I think I've done the hardest part of adding a backdrop, except paying for one.

I have three scenic elements at this point, the two stall engine shed, three bridges, and a one barn for a single farm. I've placed the shed and bridges where they might work but I'm not sure if a farm is better on the lower level down the southside or the bottom corner of the upper level next to the sidings.

I suppose I'm start to develop a general idea of what I want for scenery but past ballasting track I don't have developed skills.

I would really suggest you get the book because it will also alleviate anxiety. Given the multiple levels you are designing, what you purchase now may not be the finished look you want. This is the situation I’m looking to prevent for my room.

Thanks Jay, I see that's a Kalmbach book. I'll check it out, I do have Dave Frary's "Model Railroad Scenery" and Jeff Wilson's book "Bridges, Trestles and Tunnels".

Dan, what is the spacing on the legs for your layout? Keep us posted as you proceed on your excursion.

There are some legs 48" apart, the benches along the wall under the back drop will have legs up to 60" apart but will be attached to the wall.

Thank you Dan.

Looks like you are well on your way, Dan!  I've been retired about a year and a half, which helped me make progress on my layout.  I'll enjoy following along with yours.

This is my new job, Mark.   I've had the pleasure of turning down two contract recruiters this week.

I don't know how the weather was last evening were every one else lives but here in New England it was about the most beautiful evening one could hope to enjoy this far into summer. It was in the upper 60's, not a cloud in the sky. My wife and I enjoyed some live music from a local jazz group playing an outdoor set or two. I have a friend who is quite the accomplished trombonist who plays with this group so it was good to visit with friends as well.

I suppose some of my ideas for my layout are a little more developed than it seemed to me. Maybe because I'm mostly focused on building a foundation right now and only beginning to look ahead at what will things look like. As the mental image develops of what I'd like to see I realize what I don't know regarding scenery and what I need to research.

Don't be afraid of building scenery.  You WILL make mistakes or do things that you don't like.  Just be sure to cover the track, floor, walls, etc. so that you don't ruin anything valuable.  Basic scenery materials are relatively cheap - if you don't like the results, tear it out and do it again.

For my comments, I'm going to use left, right, top and bottom based on how your plans displayed above.

1.  As designed, you can have at least three trains running the loops, one on bottom and two on top.  However, since you have no designed yard lead, any switch engine working the yard to build a train will foul the second level inside main, forcing the train circling that main to stop occasionally.

2.  The reversing loops on both levels cross your open interior working part of the layout.  Please don't say you are planning to duck under those bridges to reach the south end of the layout.  At least plan for working manual lifts or drops there.

3.  This is the one I would think hardest about.  Leaving only nine inches between levels might be enough if all the trains on the lower level ran right along the front of the base (think right side here), but if you have a problem on the backside track as designed, you will have a long reach and maybe only a 3" clearance over positioned engines/cars that need to be re-railed.  Further, the yard on the right side may require more structural support for "unbending" operations, further complicating reach and clearance issues there.  Note that this is less of an issue on the left side since most of that lower level trackwork will be exposed, right?

4.  This comment is based on the assumption that scenery of some kind will hide the second level support under the yard.  Be sure to make it all easily removable for "ease of access" purposes as discussed in #3 above.

5.  Consider how you plan to support both the rise and the full upper level on the left side.  If you "enclose" all of that support, operators standing in the middle of your layout (particularly shorter operators) will have a hard time seeing what's going on with the lower level.  Of course, if you plan to operate remotely with one operator on the inside who controls the yard and upper levels and another operator on the outside who controls the lower level (including whatever else you plan for down there on the left side), then maybe this view issue goes away.

6.  Since you don't have any passing sidings planned currently, you will have to determine which of multiple operators controls the rising/lowering segment between the two levels.  Further, you might consider putting the rise/lower joining location on the second level on the opposite side of the crossover there (or just move the crossover south of the junction).  That way, a train coming up can immediately enter the correct track (assuming you are using right-hand running as the norm) while a train on any second level mainline track (running counter-clockwise) can exit the second level by going through the crossover and then through the level-change junction switch.

Just my 2 cents; keep the change.

Chuck

Consider a subway level with a lot of pull through staging.  One can never have enough staging!  Trust me on this.  A potential regret down the road.

A lower level staging done early on is not much of a problem to build.

Backdrops:

I saw your mention of using double face carpet tape.  I have used that for many years in the flooring industry.  It gets soft with warmth, heat rises to the ceiling, your tape will be up near the ceiling, you back drop may be on the tracks.

We used  Velcro tape held in place with rubber cement.  The seams were also done with rubber cement.  The back drop was able to be reused when the layout came down.

We use the premium backdrop material from Backdrop Warehouse, excellent material.  We find that the back drop installs best with full height Masonite backer.  I normally used 36" backdrop on 37" Masonite.

Backdrop Warehouse has a rather involved website but the product is superior to work with and the images do not appear as though they were shot with a panning camera.  The near and far views are realistic.

Hang your backdrop before you build against the wall.  I failed to do that once, never again!

@Mallard4468 posted:

Don't be afraid of building scenery.  You WILL make mistakes or do things that you don't like.  Just be sure to cover the track, floor, walls, etc. so that you don't ruin anything valuable.  Basic scenery materials are relatively cheap - if you don't like the results, tear it out and do it again.

Thanks for the encouragement. This will be a challenge.

@PRR1950 posted:

For my comments, I'm going to use left, right, top and bottom based on how your plans displayed above.

1.  As designed, you can have at least three trains running the loops, one on bottom and two on top.  However, since you have no designed yard lead, any switch engine working the yard to build a train will foul the second level inside main, forcing the train circling that main to stop occasionally.

2.  The reversing loops on both levels cross your open interior working part of the layout.  Please don't say you are planning to duck under those bridges to reach the south end of the layout.  At least plan for working manual lifts or drops there.

3.  This is the one I would think hardest about.  Leaving only nine inches between levels might be enough if all the trains on the lower level ran right along the front of the base (think right side here), but if you have a problem on the backside track as designed, you will have a long reach and maybe only a 3" clearance over positioned engines/cars that need to be re-railed.  Further, the yard on the right side may require more structural support for "unbending" operations, further complicating reach and clearance issues there.  Note that this is less of an issue on the left side since most of that lower level trackwork will be exposed, right?

4.  This comment is based on the assumption that scenery of some kind will hide the second level support under the yard.  Be sure to make it all easily removable for "ease of access" purposes as discussed in #3 above.

5.  Consider how you plan to support both the rise and the full upper level on the left side.  If you "enclose" all of that support, operators standing in the middle of your layout (particularly shorter operators) will have a hard time seeing what's going on with the lower level.  Of course, if you plan to operate remotely with one operator on the inside who controls the yard and upper levels and another operator on the outside who controls the lower level (including whatever else you plan for down there on the left side), then maybe this view issue goes away.

6.  Since you don't have any passing sidings planned currently, you will have to determine which of multiple operators controls the rising/lowering segment between the two levels.  Further, you might consider putting the rise/lower joining location on the second level on the opposite side of the crossover there (or just move the crossover south of the junction).  That way, a train coming up can immediately enter the correct track (assuming you are using right-hand running as the norm) while a train on any second level mainline track (running counter-clockwise) can exit the second level by going through the crossover and then through the level-change junction switch.

Just my 2 cents; keep the change.

Chuck

Lots of good insight here, Chuck. I appreciate it.

1. I plan on limiting to at most two trains and a switcher. There is a long siding on the first level down the right side so trains coming and going can pass. My intent was for the inner loop on the upper level to serve as a siding for the same purpose. You'll see in my next revision I've added a bit more room for the switcher to operate, but it may not completely avoid having to use some of the inner loop around the yard.

2. Next rev addresses this a bit as well. I moved one of my Atlas bridges to the crossover on the upper loopback, easy to make a swing up in that place. That will give me reach access to a good bit of the yard. The lower level crossing is now all tunnel so there will be a bit of a duck under to an access should I need to reach the end of the yard. I know, but compromises are sometime necessary.

3 and 4. Some points taken here also. I moved the lower level track on the right and the transition track a good foot or so closer to the middle. I plan on having open framing on the lower level that will be covered by the upper level, so access should be improved. The closest vertical separation between the upper level and transition track is in that bottom, right corner. I have that parameter limit set to 3" in anyRail and so far that cross under hasn't raised the alarm. I'll have to be real picky when I start building that track along the bottom.

5. I worked the track design to spread open distance between the upper level and lower level on the right side. I think that is going to be the location of whatever farm scene I come up with. That farmer may be plowing on a slope.

@Tom Tee posted:

Backdrops:

I saw your mention of using double face carpet tape.  I have used that for many years in the flooring industry.  It gets soft with warmth, heat rises to the ceiling, your tape will be up near the ceiling, you back drop may be on the tracks.

We used  Velcro tape held in place with rubber cement.  The seams were also done with rubber cement.  The back drop was able to be reused when the layout came down.

We use the premium backdrop material from Backdrop Warehouse, excellent material.  We find that the back drop installs best with full height Masonite backer.  I normally used 36" backdrop on 37" Masonite.

Backdrop Warehouse has a rather involved website but the product is superior to work with and the images do not appear as though they were shot with a panning camera.  The near and far views are realistic.

Hang your backdrop before you build against the wall.  I failed to do that once, never again!

Ok Tom, you're scaring me, good job! My basement rarely sees 72 degrees, it does get some service from the first floor a/c. That, and being a walkout, I don't see humidity much above 40% this time of year. The double sided tape I was considering is not the heat activated stuff. I would have done 36" masonite but recently I've only found the 3/16" sheets and they bow too easily. This 1/4" stuff at 4" wide will support 4 lbs without bowing when attached every 32". Nothing is in stone regarding hanging the backdrop and it may even be necessary to raise it an inch or so above what I have now.

I'm probably using the 3 scene, eastern mountains and hills category from Backdrop Warehouse. The length of the valance currently is just under 30'.

Here are the revised track plans. I still have a 40" atlas O bridge and a 30" MTH bridge to place.

@Tom Tee posted:

Consider a subway level with a lot of pull through staging.  One can never have enough staging!  Trust me on this.  A potential regret down the road.

A lower level staging done early on is not much of a problem to build.

I almost missed this. If I consider moving the yard from the upper level to the lower level on the right side I may gain parking space and de-clutter the upper level.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

This is my new job, Mark.   I've had the pleasure of turning down two contract recruiters this week.

I don't know how the weather was last evening were every one else lives but here in New England it was about the most beautiful evening one could hope to enjoy this far into summer. It was in the upper 60's, not a cloud in the sky. My wife and I enjoyed some live music from a local jazz group playing an outdoor set or two. I have a friend who is quite the accomplished trombonist who plays with this group so it was good to visit with friends as well.

I suppose some of my ideas for my layout are a little more developed than it seemed to me. Maybe because I'm mostly focused on building a foundation right now and only beginning to look ahead at what will things look like. As the mental image develops of what I'd like to see I realize what I don't know regarding scenery and what I need to research.

Don't you just love turning down those recruiters???   

Dan, I think you said you were using Anyrail to design your plans.  Any chance you'd be willing to post track-plan files (old and new)?

Chuck

@Mark Boyce posted:

Don't you just love turning down those recruiters??? 

Yes, and with a biiiiiiigggggg smile on my face.

@PRR1950 posted:

Dan, I think you said you were using Anyrail to design your plans.  Any chance you'd be willing to post track-plan files (old and new)?

Chuck

Yep, I lost the first rev but started keeping version directories. I'll post rev two first.

Here's a new rev 3 also. I can't do anymore today.

I believe I'm converging on a track plan that I like. I've also stopped trying to keep up with what Atlas O track I have on hand while working on the plan. I'll sort that out later.

It's looking like the farmer will have to give up the bottom land for a hilltop farm. Still looking for a place for the two Atlas bridges.

Lots of hidden track but that's ok, I'm hoping this will give an impression of distance when the train is out of view. Grade is still around 2.4%.

In this version the farm moves to the upper level and along the track on the top right side. A switcher can play without getting in the way for the most part. There is a bit of a traffic control challenge with timing trains accessing the inner/outer crossovers on the right. Looks like the majority of the layout will be around 50" off the floor, the lift table has fixed the lower level height.

Dan, I like the plans.  I gave up on using some of the GarGraves curved track I bought for my ‘Plan B’ layout I started building and decided it wasn’t right for me.  That track is sorted and I’ll pass it on to another modeler.  Yes, I spent more precious hobby dollars, but I’m glad I did.  Incidentally, I ended up building ‘Plan D’.

I am sparing every one my track plan spasms from last year. I had track going through walls, through the shop on the other side of the basement and back out. Then there was a phase of dog bones that avoided an interior aisle. So you're seeing plan 33 or 34. 

Flex track for my purposes provides a means to reduce the number of track joints. I'm not into creating my own curves and I like that sectional curves can help align things. That said there are 5 or 6 pieces I will bend for this layout but they aren't particularly difficult. A couple of 5 degree bends and some transition pieces out of the Ross curved switches. And I would like to have some of the straights be not quite so straight. I'll be flexing, not really bending.

And if Atlas O track shows up by the time I reach that point it may all be Atlas, and a much more serious hit to my wallet.

It has been a little slow the last few weeks as I wait for items to show up. I have finalized the track plan, just a large folded loop with some passing sidings and a small yard. Yup, I'm a looper.

The lift table is working out very well, I'm happy with it. The access it provides has made working within the outer layout bench much easier when moving ladders, plywood, junk, etc. I've completed most of the sub-roadbed plywood and upper level framing across the table. I don't sense any imbalance during lift travel.

I finished up fitting the sub-roadbed around the west end. It will be mostly covered up with homosote and there will be a couple of tunnel portals coming around the corner. I'm not going to fasten the plywood down until I get the benches along the wall in place and do some final fitting.

I have been holding off on the benches along the wall until I was able to get a backdrop up. I ordered a 3 scene, 36' backdrop from Backdrop Warehouse. I knew exactly what I wanted so once I figured out how to contact them it was only a few hours before I received a callback and placed my order. The tube showed up almost exactly two weeks later and my wife and I got them hung yesterday. They are aligned at the transitions but I'll wait at least a week to do the seams and the ends. They'll just hang for a while.

I love the backdrop, it came out just like I wanted but exposes the need for some more lighting.

Still looking to work in some bridges.

That is some really nice looking benchwork!  I like the lift up access.  The backdrop looks great!

Thanks Mark, and thanks to those who liked the update.

Dan, you’re welcome!  What kind of wood are you using?  It looks top notch!

Dan

I "second the motion" of your decision to use ANYRAIL software for track planning. It's the product I used to create several layouts -- some for a local RR club and the current layout at Mottler Station. It offers more than enough features and tools for my skill level, and it has a handy feature of creating JPG files which can be shared with other hobbyists (as attachments to e-mails) for reference.  I've attached JPG files of the two levels of my layout as an example.

I know ... other hobbyists may favor RR TRACK or SCARM software, which have more "bells and whistles" built-in. Each to his/her own!

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dan, you’re welcome!  What kind of wood are you using?  It looks top notch!

It's arctic birch plywood that I rip down from 5' x  5' sheet. It is cabinet grade and makes for very uniform lumber with no voids. I use 3/4" (18mm) for the framing and 1/2" (12mm) for surface. It was cheaper than buying pine, but I've lost track of prices lately. I've seen about 30% jump in price for this plywood in the last three months. Fortunately I only need two more sheets of 3/4 to finish the first level benches.

@Mike H Mottler posted:

Dan

I "second the motion" of your decision to use ANYRAIL software for track planning. It's the product I used to create several layouts -- some for a local RR club and the current layout at Mottler Station. It offers more than enough features and tools for my skill level, and it has a handy feature of creating JPG files which can be shared with other hobbyists (as attachments to e-mails) for reference.  I've attached JPG files of the two levels of my layout as an example.

I know ... other hobbyists may favor RR TRACK or SCARM software, which have more "bells and whistles" built-in. Each to his/her own!

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394

I posted a couple of those jpeg exports here also.  I started with AnyRail 5 or 6 years ago when I was still not sure if I would do O or HO. I don't know what it may be missing that the other programs have, it will export a file for TrainPlayer but I've never been much interested in trying it. I believe it does cost more than the other programs.

You have a beautiful train room coming along!  Very nice work.  I love your backdrop.  I look forward to following your progress!

Michael

Thank you Michael. I'm following your build also.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

It's arctic birch plywood that I rip down from 5' x  5' sheet. It is cabinet grade and makes for very uniform lumber with no voids. I use 3/4" (18mm) for the framing and 1/2" (12mm) for surface. It was cheaper than buying pine, but I've lost track of prices lately. I've seen about 30% jump in price for this plywood in the last three months. Fortunately I only need two more sheets of 3/4 to finish the first level benches.

I posted a couple of those jpeg exports here also.  I started with AnyRail 5 or 6 years ago when I was still not sure if I would do O or HO. I don't know what it may be missing that the other programs have, it will export a file for TrainPlayer but I've never been much interested in trying it. I believe it does cost more than the other programs.

It looks great!  It’s good you don’t need much more.

Beautiful and well thought out bench work. Given your skill level there learning the other aspects needed to complete the layout shouldn't be too difficult. Scenery (unlike bench work) can easily be ripped out, reworked and etc until your satisfied.

Will be following with great pleasure.

You can tell there's a real carpenter at work with this layout, very nice benchwork!  The lift bridge is quite impressive considering the complexity of getting something like that working smoothly.  I had to tinker with my Mianne lift-bridge kit to get it operating smoothly!  If I had to build it, I'd be stuck on that step to this day!