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I decided to build a separate post for the Twin Pines Railroad. This continues to be a work in progress. A BIG THANKS to everyone who contributes to this forum. I've learned a lot and enjoy seeing how everyone approaches the hobby.

My train room is in a basement  space with the available layout space of 9 x 13.  Walls are at the top and left and right sides. The layout can run three trains separately or a single train with access to all rails. I am not set on any particular period as I like to run both steam and diesel. For now I am a "looper" who is trending towards scale 3 rail.

For the most part I have some of the BNSF merger family and bits of Canadian National (think Illinois Central and ICG) and UP/SP.  Outliers are a Pennsylvania GG1 and the NW 611 steamer. I grew up in Chicago and saw most of the larger road names running in the 60s.

All  I can say is, what I started with is in no way similar to what I have now and I expect that my next layout will be different that what exists now.

This is a "not quite" current Scarm image of the basic layout. I've since added another passing track along the top.

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This shows the layout as it basically is today. I still need to add the switch labeling to the new switches. The black track serves as my staging area / commuter station.

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This Scarm 3D gives an idea of the elevation changes on the layout. Its hard to get enough clearance for crossovers with such limited distance. The drawing is missing the added passing track. I can reach most everything with the open center. There are pop ups at the corners and another at the top right.  The bridges are either swing out of lift up in order to access the center, In an emergency it's a "dive under" as the table height is only 32 inches (will never do that again).  The double crossover is at an elevation of 4 inches (my zero elevation) and track either rises to about 7 inches or descends to 1 inch.

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I realized I did not have enough yard or staging area and grabbed real estate wherever I could. Yes this makes for a track heavy layout.

An early photo of the rough layout. Lots changed after I picked up a couple of engines which needed 072 minimums. Previously, I built to 042 minimum to handle passenger cars. Best I knew at the time. Notice the reversing loop in the foreground. There is a wye at the bridge which provides two separate loops for operations. I cannot operate in the middle, I get dizzy spinning while watching the trains loop around me.

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Torn apart and rebuilt, with the help of Scarm this time to fit the 072 curves.  This is where I wished I had never laid down the plywood deck. It made doing the track revisions much more difficult than it needed to be. But I was not going to start from scratch. Another mistake? - I could argue either way.

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Beginning to be happy with this layout, but the lack of staging would arise once more and end up in more tweaks.

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So after starting scenery and ballasting track, I decided I could get another 5 inches in depth to the layout for another long passing track along the back wall. Here I go again ripping up sections of my layout. Work in progress. Note the added track under the power station. Nice because it gave me more modeling space for a town above it and reduces the amount of visible track.

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More to follow ... Jeff

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Jay, yes a backdrop is actually done. I there is a post Dec 17th which shows a couple of buildings with the backdrop in the background. I have also posted several videos which capture portions of the layout. I am making progress to getting it into the shape for a "Big Reveal".  I am considering buying  cloud stencils to do my side walls since I don't have room to hang anything.   

GRJ - I tried to build with no more than 2.8% grades. There are a couple of spots pushing 3.8% according to scarm - although I did adjustments as I built to minimize the grade, particularly at the turnouts. So what on scarm was supposed to be 6 1/2 to 7 inches clearance ended up at 5 1/2.  Visually most of the adjacent track is on a down grade while that next to it is going up, so even at a 2.5% grade it looks like 5%. The most visible spot is left of the dbl crossover where the track is diverging vertically in order to get cross over clearance further around the bend. While operating, the longer trains slow down a bit going up and speed up going down when running conventional. Using DCS it maintains constant speed. Without the space savings of the crossover I could not get the vertical clearances and could not build this layout.  NOTE: I went back with a level and measured the grades at various points.  My steepest grade is 13/16" over a run of 28"  = 2.9% grade.  A few points have 3/4 rise over 28" = 2.68%. The rest of the grades are 1.8%.  Minimum tunnel clearance is 5 1/2" top of rail to bottom of tunnel / bridge.

This is where the software helped immensely. I kind of knew what I wanted, it showed what I could and could not do given my space constraints.  Really good reality check.

https://drive.google.com/file/...yLx/view?usp=sharing

I posted this in May 2020. I forgot about all the residue left by blue painters tape used to protect the track from the gray grout mix seen all around the layout. A quick wipe with alcohol cleaned it right off.

Last edited by ScoutingDad

3.8% is workable, but it's pretty steep.  I have 2.5%, and I was trying for 2%, just couldn't get enough run to make it happen.  At 3.8%, I can see some smaller and less powerful locomotives being limited as to what they can pull.  I tested my 2.5% grade with a Lionchief Plus Camelback that I converted to battery power, I don't have track power fully wired yet.  I ran the Camelback up the grade pulling eight Railking Aerotrain passenger cars, it had no issues, which gave me confidence.  The Aerotrain cars were selected as they're noted for having fairly high rolling resistance, so I thought they'd be a good test for the grade and the fairly small LC+ locomotive.

Got a little more work done over the past week or so, amazing how distracting selling off trains can be. Been focusing on the town area of the layout and thinking about how I want it to look given the space I have available. Added the wall in pink on the left and tore out the wall on the right.   

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Using my drill press and a couple of router bits I made the railings out of 3/4 inch foam insulation.  The foam is covered with a thin layer of mortar mix and painted. I should really scratch the foam, since there is not much for the mix to grab on to - it chips and flakes off easily - OK on wood though.

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Now with the top deck removed, more foam was laid down to provide walk ways for passengers. As much as I wanted the deck to be at subway door level, the curves just would not allow that to work. The outside curve is about 42 inches and the inside 31. (Next time the passenger station will have to be a straight section.)  The back retaining wall is masonite with thin foam strips all coated with mortar mix. I'll go back and paint to better match a concrete color. Planning to add arched detail sections between the back columns and add spot lights to the columns to illuminate the passenger areas.

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Top deck is back on with a coating of concrete paint color.  Decided to add spheres to the top of the pillars for a bit of detail interest.

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Did a little more work on TPRR. Got the upper level painted and added ballast to the terminal track all the way out to the 4 way yard switch. 

Still trying to decide what I want on this upper level. I have several buildings I could assemble. Need to add lamp posts and below ground lighting. I like the way the rails came out.

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A view of the terminal. Arches added and painted. Printed a few "old" travel posters and hung them on the retaining wall across from the terminal. I may add a "frame" around them.

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A bit of an illusion - the gray section is the retaining wall. I added passengers to the last 'eL' and need to add them to the 3 other subway cars. They are 1:50 scale people and pretty narrow, but fit well in the tight space of the cars.

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Still need to do a touch more ballasting and lay down some grass. This section is about where I want it. The right side is a backdrop I painted a while ago. The back right with the trees lifts out completely so I can access track for maintenance as needed. This section blends pretty well with the backdrop so the eye does not notice the transition. Paint is a little more subtle in person.  It would be a lot easier popping up through the space if the table were 40 inches off the floor rather than 32. The light ballast is decomposed granite purchased at a feed store - called starter chicken grit. Has some nice color variation. And at $9 for a 50 pound bag it can work well in places. I prefer a dark grey for my main lines since it tends to hide the middle rail.

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Marty (McFly?) - More than likely if the Twin Pines never existed, the town and RR would have a different name - but "lone pine" could have been a choice : )  The name stems from a resort in the Spooner Wisconsin area my dad owned in the 50s and 60s - Twin Pines Resort on Twin Lake.  The twins were a red pine which had a common trunk until about 4 feet up and then split into two. Unless the DeLorean hit it when the tree was young, the DeLorean would be totaled - it was a big old growth tree. 

I have an idea for modeling a twin red pine tree and placing it in the center of town's main road. So yes there is a chance a vehicle could run into it. I don't have room for a "parkway" but a tree island will work.

9x13 is a really challenging space to work with - lots of compromise needed, especially if you want to have 072 curves to run the big stuff and still have visual and operating interest. 

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@MartyE posted:

OK so I have to ask, if a Delorean runs over one of the pine trees back in 1955, does your Railroad become "The Lone Pine Railroad"?

Nice work.  I've booked marked this thread as I have a similar space to work with.

@ScoutingDad posted:

Marty (McFly?) - More than likely if the Twin Pines never existed, the town and RR would have a different name - but "lone pine" could have been a choice : )  The name stems from a resort in the Spooner Wisconsin area my dad owned in the 50s and 60s - Twin Pines Resort on Twin Lake.  The twins were a red pine which had a common trunk until about 4 feet up and then split into two. Unless the DeLorean hit it when the tree was young, the DeLorean would be totaled - it was a big old growth tree.

I have an idea for modeling a twin red pine tree and placing it in the center of town's main road. So yes there is a chance a vehicle could run into it. I don't have room for a "parkway" but a tree island will work.

9x13 is a really challenging space to work with - lots of compromise needed, especially if you want to have 072 curves to run the big stuff and still have visual and operating interest.

Jeff, thank you for the history behind the name for your layout.

Yes, 9x13 is a tough space for 072 curves.  I gave up on the idea of including them myself early in the designing process in my 11x11 room.  As it is the layout ended up being about 9x11 with a little peninsula in the opposite corner from the door since there is a big sliding glass door on the adjacent wall.

Pennsynut - to me it seems like this is taking forever. I have lots of ideas and get stuck trying to figure out what to do first. Then the CEO walks in and ask why certain sections are not done. Of course she is right, but I was focusing on my town area and left others devoid of any work - no ballast, backdrop - so those areas do not look very good. (Same area as the EP-2 photo - track laid but not much else)

I really should take the advice others have offered - do something on your layout every day.  Or as Nike used to say " Just do it" .

After rebuilding my layout at least three times, all by modifying existing areas and building on top of the old, I finally reached the conclusion, when it comes to track, it is better to rip everything down to the base and restart. I saw an area where I have a dip on a curved switch which sometimes causes a problem. I think the only viable solution is shimming the track because this area is already landscaped and ballasted. I really thought the base was level when I laid the track.

A couple of dips on my track developed over time and I shimmed them well after the area had been sceniced. As for trying to "get it all done for goodness sake", for me it is still taking years. In some places I made temporary mockup scenery on cardboard until I finally came up with a final plan. But we all know there is seldom a final final plan when it comes to model railroading. Carry on sir!

Made a bit more progress on Twin Pines Rail Road.  It is nowhere near where I want it to be, but here are a bunch of photos so you can see around the entire 9x13 layout.  The right side of the layout is still a work in progress as soon as I can figure out what will look OK in the space.



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The girder bridge is printed cardstock, walls are pink foam the portal is a double wide cut down by about an inch to give curve clearance on my larger locos.

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The CEO placed the Christmas tree, snowman and presents in the square. A real surprise and fitting around Christmas.

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The hill on the left is calling for more pine trees. The landscape behind the tracks are in two sections which can be easily lifted out, so I can pop up through the corner.

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The hill in the corner used to be much taller but did not look right - so off came much of the bottom. It also provides space for an incoming rail line and another siding to "store" trains. The foreground space will have an Atlas switch tower - if I can get my hands on one. Maybe a Peco tower depending on shipping from the EU. This is a decent example of using chicken grit as ballast for the terminal rails and dark grey Scenic Express ballast for the mainlines. I did end up using paving sand between the track and covered with ground foam. (Frustratingly - I cannot get my WS static grass applicator to get the fibers to stand up - If I pour glue on my grounding rod, then it kind of works - argghhh.)

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Terminal waiting for the Plastruct twin vertical tanks.  I'll probably add 4 inches to provide room for a road and the tanks in front of the building and pump rack.

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There are 3 bridges in the photo, the middle one is hidden by the Lionel bridge. I had to raise it 3/4 of an inch off the deck to provide clearance for my husky stacks. Two of the bridges are lift outs with banana plugs providing power and removal if necessary. The MTH bridge swings out with a 4 inch door hinge.

Well that's my space and layout so far.  Jeff

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OK Guys - regarding the bridge - I did get the idea of using cardstock from RSJB18 (Bob)   See my post on page 993 describing the bridge in "What did you do ..."  I made this bridge twice once in grey and then again in color. I used a laser printer - however the CA does not stick very well to the waxy laser ink - I would use ink jet when I do it again. Also color all the edges before you glue together, once coated with CA nothing you do will cover the white edge.  There are several posts of the bridge in my posts - a favorite photo location for me. 

Wow, Jeff, really great progress. I was worried about your grades too, but they seem to be working out.

A couple of people have commented on the difficulty of using O72 in a 9' x 13' space. 108"  is of course plenty of width for 72" diameter track- the problem is if you want a complex track plan, multiple loops and engines to be able to run anywhere on the layout. Since, when you come down to it, most of us run a lot more than we switch, here is one possible solution.

Simply make the O72 a completely different layout on another level and unconnected to the other level ( either above or below) and run the big trains on that. On the second level, use a smaller radius and a more complex track plan and do most or all of your switching on that level.

Last edited by Will

Will - all that yours on the "Art Website"?   impressive.

Turns out the upper/outer level is a minimum of 72" diameter - I don't know for sure because I had a box of used Ross track that went over 88".  Taking a page from many on the forum, where it fit, I would place the largest diameter curve I had on hand in the middle and finish with the 072. My second level has a mix of 072, 062, 054 and  042. The inner is no more than 42" with the depot having 031" at the tightest diameter. A couple of my MTH premiers supposedly minimum 072 run just fine on the tighter curves.

For me it was important to be able to run an engine on all three tracks - given the biggies were not going to be able to do that - so all the tracks need to be interconnected. Basically I wanted more than a 30 second loop around the track.

My biggest issues are - forgetting to put bridges back in place when changing from a test run to run on the layout (and the other tracks with the missing bridges) and forgetting to electrically connect all the tracks into one common feed.  I get to a turnout, get halfway through and oops no power. DRAT!

Overall running the big iron in a small space is really hard to do - other than a big circle. I was playing with SCARM and realized I need 19 feet just to have a modified dogbone with 072 - double mainline needs a touch bigger. This one is 13x23 and where do I put a multiple track passenger station (14 feet minimum length) - back is the only feasible place.

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The Black Diamond RailRoad is built on a similar foot print and will probably be what I model on my next layout - with a little customization of course.   

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@ScoutingDad posted:
Overall running the big iron in a small space is really hard to do - other than a big circle. I was playing with SCARM and realized I need 19 feet just to have a modified dogbone with 072 - double mainline needs a touch bigger. This one is 13x23 and where do I put a multiple track passenger station (14 feet minimum length) - back is the only feasible place.

It is possible to get a nice run in a 13x23 space, my layout is roughly 24 x 12 and all my curves are O72 or larger.  I went with a large folded dog-bone that has a second level.  My dog-bone mainline has 140 running feet of track, and there are three smaller loops that I can either run on or park things on.  I also incorporated the capability to reverse direction on the main dog-bone, something that I felt would be mandatory.

Here's two shots, on the lower left of the main level plan, the elevated section ramp starts and wraps around the back.  The elevated section is depicted in the second graphic.

Main table level track plan

Elevated level track plan

A shot from the front showing the grade

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Did more track ballasting and ran out of the dark gray Scenic Express. Probably need one or two more gallon containers.  Updated the SCARM drawing to show what is now on the layout. I do not see any more room for track. : ( 

With this last update - I think I now have more curved turnouts than traditional ones. They are a real space saver as there is not much straight track on this configuration.

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Finished the Plastruct storage towers and placed them in the fuel depot.  Still have to decide which decals should be on the depot. The asphalt is the mix of fine cinders and white glue described by Ericstrains - I think it came out well - thanks Eric !

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Yes I know we do not put petroleum products into carbon dioxide or liquid nitrogen tanks. 

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Which are you leaning towards Jeff? To my eye the chicken grit is too light but the #16 looks more natural.

Jay, I am not a fan of light ballast, but its is used all over the Midwest by the railroads - limestone is pretty cheap.  This layout will likely be coming down in a year or so (due to a planned move), so I wanted to try a few ideas for the next layout.  The grit is decomposed granite so it has all kinds of colors so its not bad. I think I would tumble it for a while to knock off the sharp edges if I were to use it again, but I think buying commercial ballast is probably a better idea. (But - grit is super inexpensive) 

The #20 is supposed to be O scale size. I ended up with the #16 because it was super cheap from Trainz and I needed more ballast to finish the tracks. I think I like the #20 better color wise. The photo angle is giving a slight change to the Ross track above and below - ignoring the brown ties of the Gargraves flex top right. The #16 is more uniform in color, with the #20 having the lighter grey pieces sprinkled in.

Working on the detail is therapy in these days of Covid.  Anyway just building up skills so I know about what I can do when planning the next layout.

Saw a layout plan where there was no lift-ups or lift-outs, but used helixes to turn around (and up). Pretty interesting but it was an HO layout.   by mpeterll  I will run a couple of ideas on Scarm to see how much room that would need for O and 72 and 88 curves (double mainline).

I think you all may be getting the idea I cannot leave things alone. Picked up a couple of MTH corner buildings and the MTH station and started figuring out where to put them on my layout. The station did not look that good in its intended spot as a station, so reconfigured the town a bit.

The station is now the Twin Pines Inn - signage since added.

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The bar and new corner buildings are on the extended area of the town.

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I pulled all the incandescent lights from the MTH buildings and replaced them with 12v led strip lighting. 1st and 2nd floors are independently controlled and on dimmers.

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The rest of the photos show how this area can come apart. All the lighting has M/F disconnects which makes pulling sections completely off without unscrewing wire terminals simple. 

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The hole in the center shows how "c" sections were used to support the upper structures but also allow just enough room to stand up in this area. Now if only the entire layout was only 12 inches higher it would be much easier to get up through the hole.  I made it at 32 inches to make it easier for the grand kids. Good thing they are now much taller, next layout will be at least 42 off the floor.

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Even the landscaping on the right is removable - its just cotton batting over pink foam.

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Here is a link to trains running on Twin Pines RR. Should give you a better idea of what the layout now looks like.  The yellowish tone is due to a halogen lamp adding needed light to the bridge area. The background has 2 10,000 lumen LED garage lamps adding needed video lighting - they are quite bright.

Hope you enjoy ... Jeff

TPRR May 2021 Trains Running

Last edited by ScoutingDad

Here is a cab view of the Twin Pines Rail Road. Sure looks different running down the rails.

I may try putting the camera at the very front of the car to see if it catches the turns any better. Otherwise I can set a wider camera angle.  The 40,000 lumens of 6000K LED garage lighting does make a difference in the video capture. Far less grainy and better color.

I can think of a couple of things I would do different next time. Like leaving the station slower and sounding the bell.  I did miss a switch which caused the camera car to derail. Did it again but it re-railed itself on the next turnout.

Total video is about 5 minutes - its probably a bit long but it covers all my interconnecting track. Running about 25 scale mph.

Hope you enjoy.  Twin Pines Cab View May 2021

Ongoing Saga - finished redoing my backdrop behind the town of Twin Pines. I like it much better than the undersized "mountain" previously in the background. Stitched together 2 layers of 1/2 inch pink foam, carved it a bit and glued down a layer of cotton batting. Painted a brown dirt color and added ground foam and leaves to add texture. Repositioned the mountain where I think it makes more sense.

Rough foam placement - I hardly ever throw anything away - never know when you can use pieces of this and that. This is a one piece section nearly 8 feet long.

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Finished section

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A before photo - mountain barely visible behind the corner building and the Twin Pines Inn on the left foreground.

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That's all for now. 

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Thanks Mark,  didn't take all that much time. I started too tall and kept trimming to get a reasonable height. Time for glue to dry and paint to dry was 90% of the time. Next time I'll have to get some better lighting.  I have so little space to maneuver its difficult to get certain camera angles.

Still thinking about re-doing the town. I think I'll move the Inn back where I originally had it and put in a couple of woodland scenic buildings I am working on in its place.

How is the back surgery recovery going?

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Well I went ahead and moved things around in the town. Ended up doing more re-wiring than anything else. I now have different connectors for my Miller 5v signs and for the building LEDs  and street lights 12v.  Not quite done with the Woodland Scenics store - lost momentum doing all the little detail painting and thinking about how to put LED chips into the goose neck lights that will illuminate the sign.

Also added a K-Line Interurban which arrived today from Stout.  1 day UPS delivery - the stars were aligned. These can be modified to run off the power poles. Next layout I have a plan for a 2 rail city line running off overhead wires. Really wanted a couple of the brass trolleys from a past auction but the hammer prices were more than I was willing to part with. One of these days. Considering they have been in a box for who know how long, once the contacts were cleaned, they run pretty nice. Interior lighting is good, interior details decent and the green/red running lights mostly switch in tandem forward and reverse.

The only Twin Pines buildings I did not move were the MTH corner buildings toward the back of the layout.

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Not super visible, but I added 5 LEDs under the theater marquee and one above to light the building medallion. These are on a dimmer to adjust to lighting needs.

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When I build the next layout the backdrops are going to the ceiling. Have to laugh, I have been watching the old painting shows on PBS and Create to pick up some techniques on scene painting. Besides the amazing way they add a little of this and a little of that and a touch of another to get the color they want - yet never mixing it uniform to have color gradation - its they way they build depth to a flat 2D canvas by painting layers back to front.     



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Have a great rest of the week everyone.  !!!

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Thanks David,  Next is to get out to the train shows and begin to pick up more little people and vehicles. No more room on this layout for more buildings except for a spot for a switch tower.  Still thinking about how to build a facade for a bowling alley. Already have part of a name "Tank's Pins and ???" or something like that. My dad was a semi-pro bowler in the late 40s and 50s and Tank was his nickname.  Next time I plan a visit to Nebraska ... - well you know how that goes.  ; )

Wow, I can't believe its been 6 months since my last update on TPRR.

But first, in that time Sue and I signed contracts on 2 homes in Michigan. Both deals fell apart due to inspection problems. One the owners refused to do $30,000+ in needed repairs and the other had soil erosion problems so bad the soils engineer told me he could not recommend buying at any price. This one had a dream layout room above the garage - 12  by 35 feet of finished and heated/cooled space just calling out for a railroad. Bummer - the home needed work but was otherwise solid. 6 acres with a meandering creek running through the middle, nicely wooded, of course that was what was creating the problem.

So on to the layout, when I built the layout I used 1/2 nominal plywood using 2x4 spacers to provide support. Over time some sections warped and other sections I goofed up during rebuilds. One section in particular was temperamental with my longer engines. There is a grade transition here where its down hill going to the right.  You might be able to see the hump above the hinge going back to the second support. There is also a turnout in this spot which none of my scale steamers liked.

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So after a bit to touchy surgery, I was able to take out the hump. My level shows no gaps so I expect this little challenge has been addressed. Still have to add a couple of supports to stiffen the road bed.  IMG_2781

While this was going on, I found a "reworked" section where I had goofed once again. I use Ross turnouts and use a feature where they provide a natural place for blocks. In this case I used an insulated pin to join the lead track to the turnout. This created a 6 inch unpowered section. If the trains were going fast enough (around 30 Smph) the only thing that happened was an occasional spurious toot from the engine.  However slower speeds and shorter spacing between the pick ups resulted in a dead engine. Of course it was at the other end of the layout where it is just inconvenient enough not to want to put up with. Next project on the docket. I will also improve the level there and try to take out a slight dip.

So here are a couple of pics of the TPRR with my recent purchases scattered about.

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Its socializing time at the Camaraderie Bar. No one minds the trains, they know they are important and what the heck, they all enjoy watching them go by.

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Got around to addressing the "dip" at the back end of the layout.  I tried to use a framing level, but that was not working across the 072 curve.  So I trimmed a 6 foot piece of masonite to give me an idea on how off "flat" the track was. [Recall most of my layout is on some kind of grade so there is almost no "level" anywhere. So I use the term "flat" to describe track sections the otherwise may be level but at a grade up to 3%.] The masonite was sitting on the outer ties clipped to the outer rail. This allowed me to see the height differences as I moved from left to right. As a temporary measure I inserted shims on the back side where I have a pop up and better track access. Way off.

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Since I really could not tear out that section of the layout, I had to figure out a way to provide a solid surface under the track but also be thin enough to be able to shim along a 10 foot section.

On the foreground track, I was able to use 1/4 plywood with shims. Placed the track down, then the long level set on the track to check for gaps. Shimmed where necessary. Being frugal and not having 1/2 ply, I cut homosote for the background track roadbed. Shims are glued in place with the road bed ready to go down for another final check for any track gap against the level.  Of course neither 1/4 ply or 1/2 homosote is any good for structural stiffness.  Skipping a couple of steps along the way but you get the idea.

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The solution was to lay a bed of setting mortar on the layout deck, so the roadbed would be fully supported underneath. And that is why the shims were glued in place prior to mortar going down.

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In the photo above, you can see a gap between the 1/4 ply and layout deck. This was taken off, mortar applied and the 1/4 ply reset.

Foreground and background roadbeds are down. Now its time to let the mortar set before screwing down the track and doing a test run.  There was a lot of back and forth trying to get both track sections flat. I found I could get a better idea on flatness using the level on top of the rails instead of on the road bed.

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After a bunch of fiddling around,  got the track section repaired, ballasted and somewhat scenic'd. I almost never pop up in this location of TPRR but decided to takes a few images of the track work looking "West". Rails are still not perfectly flat, but pretty close. The track had a few slight bends which I could not completely straighten. The 2 right tracks were completely removed along with the roadbed. The furthest right track was added last year by sliding the entire layout "south" (to the left) a few inches. For me the extra track made a huge difference in operation and "look". Yep - a track heavy layout. From right to left - track 1 and 2 form loop 1 (either can be the main); track 3 is the interconnecting section for loop 1 and loop 2;  track 4 is middle loop 2;  track 5 is inner loop 3; the rest of the track form the "yard". Each loop can be separately run convention or DCS or TMCC.

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While I was working on the section, I finally figured out what to do with the Twin Pines Inn and where to place the magnificent twin pine (as yet grown).  This is the pop up at the Nor'eastern corner of the layout. I previously has a little mesa and a feeder track coming from off the layout.  [Gosh I wish I had made the table height more than 33 inches from the deck - have to be a contortionist to stand up.]

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Here is the Inn in its most likely final position.  The twin pine will be off to the left. I am considering a large oak behind the Inn so its branches overhang the Inn.  The track to the right will be rail service to the Inn.  A low brick or stone wall will separate the Inn and track.

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What really gave me this idea was looking at timetables of the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha which used to serve Minoqua, Wisconsin - an annual vacation location for my family. Rather amazing to me to see the vacation spots people trained into prior to the advent of the interstate highway system. Next time I am up there I am going to find out where the line terminated. I think I know where it did but never registered. 

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@ScoutingDad posted:

After a bunch of fiddling around,  got the track section repaired, ballasted and somewhat scenic'd. I almost never pop up in this location of TPRR but decided to takes a few images of the track work looking "West". Rails are still not perfectly flat, but pretty close. The track had a few slight bends which I could not completely straighten. The 2 right tracks were completely removed along with the roadbed. The furthest right track was added last year by sliding the entire layout "south" (to the left) a few inches. For me the extra track made a huge difference in operation and "look". Yep - a track heavy layout. From right to left - track 1 and 2 form loop 1 (either can be the main); track 3 is the interconnecting section for loop 1 and loop 2;  track 4 is middle loop 2;  track 5 is inner loop 3; the rest of the track form the "yard". Each loop can be separately run convention or DCS or TMCC.

IMG_2848IMG_2850

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While I was working on the section, I finally figured out what to do with the Twin Pines Inn and where to place the magnificent twin pine (as yet grown).  This is the pop up at the Nor'eastern corner of the layout. I previously has a little mesa and a feeder track coming from off the layout.  [Gosh I wish I had made the table height more than 33 inches from the deck - have to be a contortionist to stand up.]

IMG_2847

Here is the Inn in its most likely final position.  The twin pine will be off to the left. I am considering a large oak behind the Inn so its branches overhang the Inn.  The track to the right will be rail service to the Inn.  A low brick or stone wall will separate the Inn and track.

IMG_2853

What really gave me this idea was looking at timetables of the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha which used to serve Minoqua, Wisconsin - an annual vacation location for my family. Rather amazing to me to see the vacation spots people trained into prior to the advent of the interstate highway system. Next time I am up there I am going to find out where the line terminated. I think I know where it did but never registered.

The Line went to  Star Lake.   The north woods HI  actually went from New Lisbon  to Star lake, where it was turned on a Y.    A  Regular Hiawatha  would have  had several cars   that were switched out in New Lisbon and taken North o the North Woods Hiawatha, up to the resorts in Northern Wisconsin, I havent been over there since November ,  The Log Station , in Woodruff and the bridge over the  lake in Minocqua    , nothing much in Star Lake, most everything is Built over or grown shut still a beautiful  area

Got a little distracted with the paying job, and selling a few items here and on the bay.

After reading forum discussions on track planning I picked up John Armstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operations".  I do not think it would have helped when I first started my layout iterations, but now I understand the wealth of information contained therein. Well worth the $12 bucks from a used book seller. Thanks to whomever cited that book.

Toying with how I want the Twin Pines Inn area to look. I've got an idea for the lone twin pine, but went ahead and started the build of a burr oak tree. As usual watched a lot of how-to videos and @Sarah 's build of her trees.  Link to Burr Oak image

Here is a bunch of 19 and 20 gauge wire roughly 20 inches long. The intent was to build a 60 scale foot oak.  Burr oaks are gnarly and usually wider than tall. I also wanted sturdy roots coming out at the bottom.

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Then it is a matter of twisting bundles of wire together around the core. A wrap of wire around the trunk helps stabilize the wire. I've seen some of these with 6 foot diameter trunks, so the wrap works fine to thicken the trunk.

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For the branches it more twisting and folding and more twisting. Wear safety glasses on something this big, hard not to poke yourself with the sharp wire edges. Bottom photo is with the first coat of heavy modeling latex over everything. I'll apply 2 or 3 more coats and cover everything with fine coffee grounds. I dump the used stuff in a sheet pan and cook off the water.

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The plan is to use sedum at the ends of  the branches coated with several layers of dilute PVA to give a little strength. They are quite brittle. The war gaming folks don't use glycerin as it makes things too floppy, so they coat with PVA to enable handling. After that I'll start with Scenic Express Super Leaves. If too sparse I'll try either Woodland Scenics Fine Leaf Foliage or do the fiber followed with ground foam and leaves method.  This is sedum before I knock off the spiky flower buds with a sturdy brush.  IMG_2883

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I think this burr oak build is going to work!

These are the sedum tips, dipped/immersed into 4:1 water/glue, allowed to drain for a minute or two, then sprinkled with super leaf.   Trying to decide to spray with hair spray to get the extra fix or spray with a thinned modge podge or the modge podge canned spray.  I have Krylon matte but not sure it has any holding power.

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I like the effect of the brownish red  color peeking through the leaves.

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Here is the wire tree armature with a second coat of latex then dusted with coffee grounds while still wet. I worked in sections as the latex skins quickly. I left the ends bare so as not to interfere with gluing the leaves on.  I think I will need 80 to 100 of the leaf bunches. Making the bunches goes pretty fast, gluing them to the tree is going to take time. I am leaning toward making all the leaf bunches and then applying, as opposed to gluing the stems on and then applying the leaves.

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@ScoutingDad posted:

I think this burr oak build is going to work!

These are the sedum tips, dipped/immersed into 4:1 water/glue, allowed to drain for a minute or two, then sprinkled with super leaf.   Trying to decide to spray with hair spray to get the extra fix or spray with a thinned modge podge or the modge podge canned spray.  I have Krylon matte but not sure it has any holding power.

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I like the effect of the brownish red  color peeking through the leaves.

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Here is the wire tree armature with a second coat of latex then dusted with coffee grounds while still wet. I worked in sections as the latex skins quickly. I left the ends bare so as not to interfere with gluing the leaves on.  I think I will need 80 to 100 of the leaf bunches. Making the bunches goes pretty fast, gluing them to the tree is going to take time. I am leaning toward making all the leaf bunches and then applying, as opposed to gluing the stems on and then applying the leaves.

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Coffee grounds , is brilliant, after I carved my park in the clay It always looked too smooth to me. I also like you leaf material

I am going to take @Dave Koehler 's advice and use modeling clay around the base. Otherwise it will take several more coats of latex to hide the wires.  Bought a bit of oven fired clay, 15 min at 275.  We will see how that turns out. Hopefully the latex won't break down at that temp. [Supposedly it will take 325 and in the process will vulcanize.] 

I think I got the coffee grounds idea from Sarah.  The dirt around here is either clay or has a lot of organics - neither of which are helpful for simulating dirt.

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On going saga of building a Burr Oak tree. The intent is to place the oak behind the Inn as seen in the photo.  I have far less room behind the Inn than I thought. This is going to have to be a 1/4 tree in order to fit. As you can tell by the building this is a big tree. But is is sitting about 6 inches higher than it really is. 

Concepts are one thing the actual build is another.  A couple of things about using the sedum heads. I really like the branching the heads have, but I really do not "care" for how flat the heads are. As a trial, I used shrink tubing (white) to slip over the wire branches with the sedum stems inserted. This allowed me to add multiple branches to a single wire.  I did not heat shrink them, but will probably buy black tubing and use those to hold everything in place while final gluing.  An easier way to do this would be with poly fiber. That method is OK, but I think the leaves get too dense making the tree too dense. Maybe the sea foam armatures are the way to go after all.

Another thought - if I were to do a "puff ball" tree line background, these would work really well planted in a foam backer.   

As for looks, I think the tree above the roof line needs to be no more than the total height of the Inn and maybe just the height of the second floor and roof.  Basically remove the bottom branches and shorten the entire tree.  What do you think?   

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@RSJB18 posted:

IDK Jeff- I like it but I wouldn't want to sleep on the second floor in wind storm.......

The tree needs to be more dense. The clumps all on the end don't look realistic. Can you split some of the sedums and glue them down the branches closer to the main trunk? It would fill it in more.

Agreed, but the height  looks good. filling in from the sides, will flush it out.  and every one needs to remember, most of the model train layouts , we have seen the trees are way to small .  I live in an area where the trees are 40 to 80 feet tall !

Thanks @Dave Koehler  @RSJB18  The tree certainly needs more fill-in.  I was trying to get an idea on size and placement of the leaf clusters. In order for this tree to fit in the corner, I will have to bend or remove branches to the point the tree will look like an 80 degree pie shape from above. If I can bend the branches around I should have enough wire stubs to add leaf clusters to fill in. The use of the shrink tubing is a help but the stems are going in nearly parallel to the wires.  I'll have to figure out if I can get 30 to 45 degrees out of the tubing  to get more "spread".  I can then glue them in place for a more permanent set.

As this is a work-in-progress and a learning experience - next time I would knock nearly all of the flowers off the sedum heads,  paint the stems, apply the leaf material, seal and then apply to the wire tree.  The wires are about the right length if I was adding poly. But with the stems adding 2 to 3 inches I'll be doing a bit of wire trimming. 

As far as proportion, the Inn is 9 inches to the roof line, the top of the tree is 18 inches. A full grown Burr Oak tops off around 60 feet, so from 2 perspectives the height is about correct to the prototype and it looks reasonable next to each other in this photo. Although I could make an argument to shorten it by 2 to 4 inches to reduce its visual impact on the rest of the layout.  I can certainly duplicate its height with the twin pine I will model later.  Looking at this image I would love to put this tree next to or a little behind the inn off a corner. I just do not have the room - its really tight - I'll have to consider alternatives - maybe ...



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A close up of the leaf clusters. I think the leaves look pretty good. In order to get around the flat head look I might be able to separate the clusters into smaller units and hot melt them into a larger, more "natural" cluster. There are 3 different super leaf colors in this mix plus the rust coming through the stem. You can see the texture in person, but the camera will not pick it up at a distance.

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Thanks for the feedback - it helps to think about alternatives and different approaches.

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@ScoutingDad posted:

Thanks @Dave Koehler  @RSJB18  The tree certainly needs more fill-in.  I was trying to get an idea on size and placement of the leaf clusters. In order for this tree to fit in the corner, I will have to bend or remove branches to the point the tree will look like an 80 degree pie shape from above. If I can bend the branches around I should have enough wire stubs to add leaf clusters to fill in. The use of the shrink tubing is a help but the stems are going in nearly parallel to the wires.  I'll have to figure out if I can get 30 to 45 degrees out of the tubing  to get more "spread".  I can then glue them in place for a more permanent set.

As this is a work-in-progress and a learning experience - next time I would knock nearly all of the flowers off the sedum heads,  paint the stems, apply the leaf material, seal and then apply to the wire tree.  The wires are about the right length if I was adding poly. But with the stems adding 2 to 3 inches I'll be doing a bit of wire trimming.

As far as proportion, the Inn is 9 inches to the roof line, the top of the tree is 18 inches. A full grown Burr Oak tops off around 60 feet, so from 2 perspectives the height is about correct to the prototype and it looks reasonable next to each other in this photo. Although I could make an argument to shorten it by 2 to 4 inches to reduce its visual impact on the rest of the layout.  I can certainly duplicate its height with the twin pine I will model later.  Looking at this image I would love to put this tree next to or a little behind the inn off a corner. I just do not have the room - its really tight - I'll have to consider alternatives - maybe ...



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A close up of the leaf clusters. I think the leaves look pretty good. In order to get around the flat head look I might be able to separate the clusters into smaller units and hot melt them into a larger, more "natural" cluster. There are 3 different super leaf colors in this mix plus the rust coming through the stem. You can see the texture in person, but the camera will not pick it up at a distance.

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Thanks for the feedback - it helps to think about alternatives and different approaches.

corners cam be tricky! , and it is easier to clump a group of trees together

Finally got back to the layout - but really to the Burr Oak.  I stripped the tree down to bare wire branches and started re-attaching the limbs.  I did not have any black shrink tubing so decided to try hot melting the limbs. Worked OK, but is messy. Next time I'll use the black shrink tubing to hold the limb in place and then cover with a mix of white glue and coffee grounds (or latex plus coffee) to set them in place.  In places where I had extra wire I twisted it around the stem to hold better.  I also took the longer stems and added branches (leaf clusters) to get the 3 dimension look. The heads themselves are rather flat disks.

NOTE: I am going to try to use the following consistently to describe the build:

  • Wire arbor and wire branches to describe the bulk of the tree and wire branches are the attachment points for the sedum limbs.
  • Limbs refer to the thicker woody part of the sedum stem
  • Leaf clusters refer to the sedum flower heads with leaves attached.
  • Branches (as opposed to wire branches) refer to smaller groups of leaf clusters glued to the limbs.

I ended up trimming the wire branches down to get the right spread of the tree. Covering the wire with multiple coats of latex and coffee grounds worked really well. I could freely bend the wire to get access to glue in the limbs. Once attached just bend back into place. Once I figured out what I was doing, work progressed quickly. The shiny parts seen in the photo are the hot melt holding the limbs to the wire branches. Here is the tree with 40 to 50 limbs attached to the wire branches. I made another 40 or so to finish the lower portion of the tree. 

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Here is a better close up of the leaves. The 3 different super leaf colors look pretty good. Using 60% to 80% of one leaf as a base color and the other two as highlights seems to work best to my eye.  I could vary the leaf density by using less leaves and by removing more individual sedum head flowers. Taking too many off looks a little sparse but in the right place looks fine. 

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What else would I do different?  Making the limbs with the branches and leaves is the best way to do this. You have really good control of the leaves and density on individual limbs and branches and you can get extra coverage on the underside of the sedum head. But they are a little brittle. I would spray with an adhesive to get better leaf attachment and fine stem strength once assembled into branches. I have a bottle of modge podge spray to try for coating the new limbs and the already built portion of the tree.  I am convinced using the shrink tube to get an initial attachment (branch to wire) is the best way to start assembling the tree.

I found out lightly rubbing the dried flower heads together gets the flower heads off quickly and more thoroughly. Pieces that break off were probably not going to stay on anyway. A brush works ok, but is slower and you have to support the head. 

I do like dipping the flower heads in about 3 inches of "scenic" glue. This thoroughly coats the flower heads and a portion of the sedum stem (in hopes it gives a little more strength). I let the glue drain off for a minute or two prior to applying the leaf material. Shake off the sedum stem in a bag or box. Excess glue ends up in the excess leaf material and creates clumps. So I make enough leaf mix to only do 5 or 6 branches to minimize leaf waste. Even if you end up with dry leaf clumps you cannot easily break apart, you now have extra ground growth for elsewhere on the layout. Mixing small batches is also good because there will be variations in each batch creating slight color variations in the finished tree.

Not sure if this is good or bad. After a week or so the latex had cured and remained flexible. Good because it was not damaged by all the wire flexing I did. Maybe no-so-good, because it was relatively easy to pull off the latex from the wire branches meaning there was not a lot of holding power. Of course what will hold fast to thin smooth wire?

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Bill, time is all in the planning and then dry time. I estimate 30 min to form the wire tree and fiddle with it 15 min for coating with latex and coffee several times. 30 minutes max to do the leaves and maybe an hour to attach the branches to the wires. This is a 20 inch tall tree so there are going to be 50 to75 branches to attach. That will take time especially if picky like me. Of course this is a foreground tree meant to attract attention. Sara`s tree would take half the time because its more vertical and the material she used for the leaves would work well.

I've posted on making different types of pine trees using dowels with furnace filters as needle supports and wire branches with static grass for needles.  Decidious trees I've made with twigs and poly fiber and or furnace filter material covered with the super leaves. For me the wire arbor is the way to go. I think the fiber gets too dense. But could be ok for deep background trees/forest. Essentially puff ball trees.

If you have any dried sedum around, those could be glued together to form a 4 or 5 inch tall tree without too much trouble. I could not get hydrangea heads to work.

Luke Towand has a nice video on making wire trees for ho scale. He uses fiber static grass ground foam and leaves for the leaves. There is a product called seafoam a plant which could look good with some fiddling. I do not like the adhesive spray, it sticks well, but dries slow and will collapse the structure if if you compress it at all.

@Tom Tee  HI Tom thanks for the kind words.  Yes it is great to be a young 66 in August. !!!

We are hoping to buy the next house before the end of this year, we will see. We found a great house which literally backed up to an interstate. Road noise was intense. Not much decision to make - a hard no- we currently live about a mile from I57 and can hear the high pitched road noise at night - not willing to live with that any more.

Regarding Twin Pines - I knew this was going to be short lived, but watching all you and others have done has allowed me to experiment with different techniques. I love learning new stuff and get quite a bit of motivation trying out new things. The CEO commented the other day on how I am able to just go ahead and launch into things I have never done before and am not afraid to do it. I just suppose I consider myself handy.

I do intend to complete a couple of more details on the TP before it comes down for good.  Don McCuaig (former forum member) did a great video of his layout called the "Last Run" - I plan to do something similar, but will not be able to reach his Emmy award level skills. Should be fun trying though.  So I know how I will build the next one, I know some of the elements, but until I know the space everything is up in the air.  My dream besides having the 3rail, includes a small two rail town trolley system with working overhead wires and a point to point 2 rail to display and run my scale European crocs and passenger cars and "wagons". I think I can work those in together because they do not need to connect with the 3rail.

So much for a short answer. Carpe Diem  --- more accurate translation "enjoying a moment that is rooted in the sensory experience..." Jeff

Best wishes in your search,

We found that the  best style of home for us was a ranch home with a full size dry basement and  full height ceiling.

Our two story home with stacked floors only had half the potential basement foot print that the same living space would have available in a one story ranch home.  However a lot of ranch homes only had half of their basements dug out???

We too wanted a quieter location which was found in a back corner of an older community.

Took a long time in searching in this neck of the woods for our goal but we got a rather large train room and now it is up to me to fill it !!  Oh, there is a house on top of it.

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Tom - I did set the ballast in place with different mixes of 2, 3 and 4 to 1 water to white glue plus detergent. Misting with IPA was a must to break the surface tension. In a bunch of places I left the middle unglued and does not seem to pose any issues.  I've moved track around since and have not had an issue popping the Ross and Gargraves track off. Only in a couple of spots I had to get a bit aggressive scraping the ballast off, even then a putty knife worked fine. 

Well - this is the projected space for Twin Pines Rail Road version 2.  Working on finishing some details on TPRR to do a "Last  Run" video.  She will have to be down by early September.

Have a basic wish list and will have to noodle where things will go. This is going to be a combination of Ross and Atlas track - hoping to avoid buying much more rail.

The only access is the 192 length - rest are walls.

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@Mark Boyce  Mark and all, rather bittersweet with TPRR coming down. It was quite a learning experience and has a lot of hidden and patched up errors and design flaws. I am perfectly fine with memorializing it in a Last Run video. I would have approached the space much differently today based on what I have learned from many on this forum. So just time to move on and have good memories of my first real layout.  Of course it will always hold a special place remembering on how Ryan and Logan used to dance and sing in its the middle area.  Jeff

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Mark Boyce  Mark and all, rather bittersweet with TPRR coming down. It was quite a learning experience and has a lot of hidden and patched up errors and design flaws. I am perfectly fine with memorializing it in a Last Run video. I would have approached the space much differently today based on what I have learned from many on this forum. So just time to move on and have good memories of my first real layout.  Of course it will always hold a special place remembering on how Ryan and Logan used to dance and sing in its the middle area.  Jeff

Jeff, Yes you will always remember Ryan and Logan having fun in the middle area!!

My layout hasn't functioned the way I had envisioned as you and I have discussed.  I have built other layouts, but always in smaller scales.  I have put the scenery for the actual Blackwater Canyon on hold as you probably have noticed because I can't even begin to o it justice in my small space.  It doesn't help that I am on a Western Maryland Modelers Facebook group where two people are building what I had hoped to in HO scale in spaces several times the size as mine.  So, I have been adapting to what I have.  Regardless, it still is fun!!

I've known and previously posted the CEO and I are planning a move up to Michigan. That means I've had some time to think about the elements I wanted on the next layout. Of course given the unknown space dimensions, not too much planning could be done. I prefer a walk-in but this space will not allow it with planned 072dia curves. So somewhere will be access points to the interior. I imagine there will also be hatches to reach scenery and rails. I will use the "L-girder" and "open grid" construction methods described by Westcott. If I do it right I should be able to access lower track without needing a pop-up (hatch) Yes, there will be some crawling around, but that is what the grandkids are for.

I would like have the train station and surrounding city to be the initial focal point. Everything else would flex off that. Given the space requirements of the passenger yard, I think the only suitable location would be the along the long 192 length. But that creates problems for lift-outs or ups. The "natural spot" would be to have the station in the bump out at the top right, but that makes it tough to be the focal point. I would like to work in a street trolley in the city - but again hidden in a corner is not optimal.

I'll play around with SCARM to see what might work. This will be multi-level and looks like max 3% or less grade is workable. I can fold the track, but am concerned with losing yard space for the industries.

For instance I do not think this type of configuration would work very well. Curves are all 072 and there is little space available for a 2nd main let alone a 3rd. So some noodling to do. The yard track shown are less than 5 feet - I'll have to remember why the leads are so long.  This top right corner might be ideal for the intermodal with water feature.

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Looks like you've got some work to do Jeff. Those 072 curves really eat up a lot of space.

A couple of thoughts; make the outer tracks loops (I know, boring....) with double crossovers. It will free up the middle for your yards and other features and industries you are trying to fit. A couple of long passing sidings would give the appearance of a 4 track main, and could give you the passenger storage, and station space you are looking for.

The corners outside of the 072 mains are good spots for smaller industries with 1or 2 track spurs. If you are up against walls, building flats are a good alternative to full-size buildings.

Play with a ladder yard lead instead of "Y" leads. The "Y's" take up a lot of room.

I hope to replace the current RSJ&B one day too, whether it's in our current house or a different one.

Keep us posted, looking forward to your last run video.

Bob

@G3750  George - correct the grids are 6 inches square. 

I tend to build sample segments and place them in the space to see how they might fit. The ladders are something I built a while ago to get an idea of the space they consume. Maybe I misunderstand the terminology, but I thought a double ladder is not much more than two ladders next to each other connected somewhere up-rail?  Like what I have drawn.  I do not think the drawing above is workable. There have been several requests to help on planning a layout, where the wants could not possibly match the space. When I find "wants" that cannot fit a space, I put them into the "dream" category and see what "wants" I can realistically obtain.

For now all I have is the rough space with the actual layout to-be-determined.  I presume the passenger yard and a main freight yard and engine storage will be at the lowest level. The main level will hold the industries and perhaps a second level will provide interest with crossovers and tunnels and scenic details.  So layout configuration is at this point open game.

I was really hesitant to post any track plan, but thought it might be helpful for those trying to figure out what their "planned" layout might look like and what is attainable given a space. My tendency is to build a base, slap down track and see how it goes. From the iterations with TPRR, I know, while that method is quick, did not get me where I wanted to go. I ended up buying track planning software (SCARM) to figure out possibilities to get TPRR to the plan it is today.  So I have become an advocate of using track planning software.

I think what George was suggesting is a "double-ended" ladder with the switches at each end being mirror images of each other, sort of like stacked passing sidings.  However, that type of ladder has the effect of shortening each yard track from its maximum potential length, but it has the positive effect of allowing the sorting of cars from both ends which is great if you only have room for a 2 or 3 track yard.

Chuck

Chuck @PRR1950, Thanks for the explanation. I've seen several different types of designs for these particularly in HO.  I've seen a staggered version such that each leg is the same length as the others. Basically go in low come out high if travelling left to right.  Double ended diamond shape I suppose any open track could be used as a run around.  This might work if taken around a corner instead of being straight.

I am going to have to agree with Bob @RSJB18 on this size space, loop type design for the 2 -3 track mains w/sidings. After that it is an open question. The space would be easier to tackle if the entry was at the shorter end given the need for access points.

Well everyone the transition is beginning. Did a partial move into Michigan home and signed the listing agreement for the Champaign one. I've been trying to film clips for a final run video of the current TPRR but things keep getting in the way.

Did a little bit of touch up to the Inn and Supper club. For the video I'll have a few people on the path or the porch.

TPRR Inn f1

TPRR Inn f2

Was rather frustrated with an MTH N&W J Class (PS2).  I am pretty sure the wireless draw bar is the problem but don't have time to work on it. I have never seen a draw bar screwed into the loco shell before. Trouble is the connection to the tender will not come apart. I had wanted to have a video of the J running on TPRR along with its passenger cars. That's not going to happen now.

Been trying to follow everyone's work. Nice distraction.

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Well  here are the final images of TPRR (#1). We are trying to exit the house Wednesday night.

Last of the street scenes

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Bear family doing some rail fanning -

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A few take down shots.  Took about 15 hours to take down the layout and return the room to its original condition.  9 am till midnight made for a long day.  Really glad I did not glue the ballast between the rails - as it was a few track pieces were firmly glued to the base and were ruined trying to pop them up. The chicken grit ballast was the worst - I must have soaked that stuff extra well.

Structures all removed ...

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Partial tear-out of scenery ...

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empty room ... 

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TPRR will rise again in Michigan sometime in 2023. This was a great learning experience from a bunch of different aspects. I certainly will not build #2 like #1.  Best to all ... Jeff

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Jeff, I was just thinking of the Twin Pines RR when I finished some work on my layout that I hope to post in the next day or two.  Yes, if we move I will be building mine different from the present Blackwater Canyon Line.  I am doing the same as you, not gluing a lot of my layout.

Thank you for sharing the last photographs.  I wish you well on your closing and move to Michigan!!  Please keep us posted!!!

@Mark Boyce and all - well we got out of Champaign and are now in Caledonia Michigan.  The house right now seems 3 times smaller than what we had. (there was a 12 x 40 partially finished crawl space which could absorb all kinds of excess.) We are having a difficult time moving all of our treasures in. We got rid of a lot prior to the move and will have to get rid of more. What is more surprising is the volume of train stuff I accumulated over the last three years. 5 car passenger sets sure eat up the space. I'll have to rethink the location of the layout as I may need some of the planned layout space for storage. Probably a good exercise in getting rid of excess.

Good thing is the grandkids and son and his wife were a big help in the move and are here regularly. Which is why we moved up in the first place.  Maybe a few more days till we can get back to a reasonably organized home. 

TPRR Configuration Ideas - I am noodling ideas on how to get some of my wants in a less than ideal space.  For this iteration I want to figure out how best to layout a passenger terminal on a lower level. The terminal and town would be built over the track.  I know backing a train down a slope is not ideal but unless you can figure out how to get more space - I think I am stuck.

I would love to get full length trains on each departure rail but it looks like the best I can do is 5 cars plus an AA or ABA set. Steamers are a little shorter so are less of an issue. Looking for 8 tracks but can settle for less, but not less than 100 inches per departure track. Sidings for extra cars and engines is a plus. All my equipment is scale. MTH cars are 18 inches +/- , my Weaver Milwaukee Road Hiawatha's are 20.

I keep thinking there must be better ways to layout out yards. This is entirely new to me so any insights are helpful. Curves are all 072 Dia.

This is one possible option. The entire left side of the room is open, the rest are immovable walls. The left side is attractive because I would be able to see all the passenger cars. The downside is it would have to be a crawl under - not my favorite. NOTE: I would have an expanded space between pairs of cars for passenger walkways.

Initial options.

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I like option one for yard, kinda line what gunrunner did….I am trying to do something similar off my outside loop…..the length is somewhat disappointing cause like you, I wanted to just park a consist, drop one off pick one up, and you need to have one open all the time to drop off before you pick up…enjoying your thread and am learning a bunch

Personally, I prefer the station location where the track heads in to the alcove because you will never get any mainline track in there.  An O72 half-circle just will not fit.  HOWEVER, as far as I can tell, use of that alcove plus O72 curves, in the current configuration, leaves your station tracks at the minimum of 100 inches.  Five cars plus just one engine will not fit without fouling the yard throat.  Use of curved switches might make this option more viable.

On the other hand, with your passenger station and tracks along the long straight wall, you should be able to get 5 cars and an engine on each track without fouling the throat.  You also might be able to get both your intermodal yard and grain elevator into the alcove.  This would also allow you to put all the switches for the throat on a lift-up piece making for easy egress to the middle of the layout.

Just some thoughts.

Chuck

Last edited by PRR1950

Keep the ideas coming.  Due to space and access needs, here is a little more track planning.  Could get a freight yard in the lower level. The alcove could get a shortened version of an intermodal and grain terminal.  Thinking a switcher could build a consist and bring it to a yard lead for the main line engines.  A layout access point could be installed on the left. Interconnect switches, sidings, etc need to be considered.  Not fond of the plain double oval, but ... 

Sweet Clover Space e2

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When laying out your passenger station area, remember to leave sufficient space between the tracks for passenger and freight platforms.  Those will also have to be wide enough for walkways up to the terminal / street level.  That said, you moved everything against a solid wall; watch your reach.

Chuck

Last edited by PRR1950

Mark, this is just an exercise in what if.  The entire length from the exit curve of the yard to the turnout at the main has grades no more than 2.5%, close to the turnout it flattens out. The vertical gain is 7 1/2 inches.  I am not in love with backing down that distance, but it will be pretty cool to see the SP 4449 Daylight, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha (x2), Santa Fe F3s, N&W 611, Pennsy GG1, Great Northern F3s pulling that long way out to the mainline. Yes I am fond of passenger sets, but they pose a special problem due to their length at scale. Toss in my D&RG Railking Passenger set and I am at 8.

I am looking over an old "101 Track Plan" book by Westcott I got about 1971.   I am fond of the folded loops which tend to give longer running times, before returning to the origin. And have plenty of opportunity for scenery. 

@PRR1950  yep on the clearance. I like to photograph/video the engines and layout so having access to various vantage points is important to me.  Much of the lower area will be open grid so I should be able to access anything from below. On the other hand I may try to leave 14 to 16 inches between the wall and benchwork top and bottom for access. One looks possible, both look not!  --- On TPRR 1 I used about 3 inches between cars for a passenger platform.  That seemed to be wide enough.

So - I suppose the real question is whether to highlight a passenger terminal and surrounding city, or just bag all that and focus on scenery and long running trains with a mix of industries for interest. Staging and yards can all be below deck.

Ok everyone, I got to thinking about the double oval and how "blah" that would be. So I pulled out my ancient copy of 101 and Track Plans and came across this Wescott offering.  Surprisingly with some adaptation it fits in my available space and has room to spare for long sidings and well as a long track to access the lower level yard this all started with. (Troy and Mohawk Valley RY)

I think the passenger city terminal idea goes away but the passengers would see nice scenery.  Minimum curves are 072 with a bunch of 080 and 088 sweeping curves added where space allowed. If the lower level yard works like I think it can, the yard can be pull through.   

I can work in a parallel main on the upper level.  Because this is a crawl under, I need to figure out how big the pop ups will be. I'll have to raise the deck so it won't be a pain to crawl under for access. Including access to the lower level yard.

Amazingly I was able to run the train simulator on the finished layout and it worked!!  There are a couple of clearance issues that need to be addressed, but should not be too difficult. As drawn there was 7.5 inches vertical for clearance. No grade was more than 2.5%.

Wescott tmv 3d

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Well stuff happens, the space I thought I had is not going to work.  Back to the drawing board. Now down to a rough 12x13 space. 

Here is a possible reconfiguration of TPRR2 in a tighter space. The idea is to keep the inside open (yellow) for access and running trains. The inner yard would be connected to the double main line.  A feeder track would descend to provide access to a lower lever passenger station yard - no more than 30 inches wide and about 7 - 8 inches below the upper level.  Main lines are 080 and 072 curves. lower level access is 072 minimum.  The inner industrial yard is 042.  I am not super happy with the length needed for the wye, may ditch them for longer yard track and a return for a switcher. As drawn there would be about 30 inches in length to each yard track - only enough for 2 cars.  The alcove at the top right will be for storage so a minimum 24 inch aisle is needed across the top along the 188 space. I can grab a few inches here and there, but not feet. Just thinking out loud. Comments appreciated, especially for the inner yard configuration.  I think we have a decent idea on creating the passenger yard with curved turnouts leading into the yard and a gentle decline into the passenger area. A long backing down hill operation but should be manageable.  I would also add a passing track somewhere along the main and staging for engines if necessary.  Might use Mark's idea for an engine area with a wye turnout.

On the other hand it could be reduced to 8x13 to leave access around the layout but cram as much as possible leaving no free inner space.

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Jeff- sorry to hear that space has been lost to other needs.......

Since you need to maintain a walkway along the top, why not eliminate the center walkways and do a pop up to access the back? Are you married to the double loops? A folded dog bone or folded figure 8 could allow for a long mainline and give you space for yards, etc. A reversing loop might be fit as well. I haven't looked at anything in SCARM to see what fits.

just my $.02......

Bob

That’s unfortunate Jeff that it’s not working out as you planned. You had been so looking forward to the move and the new layout. Just to flesh it out in reality, perhaps mark off the floor with painters tape and do some measurements. Then you can play with some pieces of various curves to give you a perspective. The important thing is- you’re going to have a layout.

Jay

Jeff, just some food for thought. I don't think there's a way to do what you want in the new space, so I played around a bit.

I played with several versions of a yard to fit your peninsula and the one of the far right offers the most storage. However, they all suffer from the closeness of the turnouts, so storage is less than what's shown. Note the 4.8% grade to get down tot he lower level and be able to go under the upper level track. It'd be a little less than that because I have it going from 7.5" down to 0" when it actually only needs to go to 1"-1.5". The point is it's probably going to be steeper than you want. I also don't know how you expect to go down to passenger tracks and then get back up, so I decided to see what kind of yard I could fit on the lower left.

TPRR2 oops1 daz

This removes the peninsula, changes the inner loop to O-72, puts the station above the siding and keeps the yard. I see no way to connect the blue and orange tracks.

TPRR2 oops1 daz2

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HI all,  regarding the space, I was looking forward to a nice long 18 to 22 foot run with TPRR2. The first two homes we bought had the space. This 3rd one showed a similar length until it became apparent the basement area drawing were way off. Total square footage was correct so no real alternative than going through with the purchase and the CEO would have flipped out anyway. All in all glad to be out of Illinois and starting a new phase.  If we stay here I have a couple of alternatives, if not well the current space will not matter.

With 72 inch Dia curves, I need about 13 x 7 just to make a figure 8 or to incorporate reversing tracks. So given the space restrictions it is just not workable IMO, so no point in exploring that further.  So I have roughly a 12x13 space to work with.  I am using Westcott's building methods so each track will have its own roadbed, no full expanse of plywood, except in the yards. I have never built this way, but should be straightforward enough. It appears it will be much easier to set the grades with this method than the 2x4 on top of plywood I used previously. Made making changes really challenging.

Dave, the yard entry track will extend beyond the double main entering somewhere in the top left of the plan.  I may have to elevate the double main a bit to get clearance in order to avoid more than 2.8% down grades. According to SCARM this should be doable.  As built the first bench has 40 inches of clearance from floor to bottom of beams - much better than the 28 inches I had with TPRR1.  The inner loop track will be at nearly the same height as the main so should not be an issue connecting. I think it showed up at 0 with the double at 7 - yes those would be a challenge to connect.  Looking at it, I will probably have to flip the terminal to end toward the top. Since I'll do a duck under starting the downgrade at the top will keep the 40 inch clearance. I do not see doing lift outs, although I may try a roll out, given the modular build I am attempting.

So yes I was expecting and planning for a much larger space and did not get it. So its work with what I have and make the best of it. Then get the trains running to get Ryan and Logan back "playing trains". That's what its all about anyway. But I still want a larger layout.  I probably have only 20 to 30 years left to get it done - time to get busy. ; )   

I do have to relate a story - my backpacking and camping buddy recently had a cancer diagnosis but after further testing, verified there was in fact no cancer. In the course of discussions his doc asked him about "checking out" when the time came. He responded he wanted a Niagara Falls death. Of course the doc thought than meant he would hurt himself, but the meaning was instead, "I would rather go like a bat out of **** and then fall off the cliff and check out quickly, than do the slow decline bit".  While that would be my preference as well, I don't think we get to choose, except maybe to maintain a "healthy" lifestyle and avoid doing really stupid stuff.  Just a relief to know the docs were wrong.

Have a great, healthy and prosperous New Year everyone. And Go ILLINI !

From my family to yours

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Last edited by ScoutingDad

As I was laying out the plan, I was getting concerned about the track plan getting too tight for the space.  I went ahead and built a couple of benchwork pieces to get an idea of space and size relative to the room.  They are surprisingly light and sturdy. For reference the uprights are 48 inches and the L-Girders are 8 feet long. I think I will be able to narrow the benchwork to minimize wasted space.

One lesson here is, in my previous house, I had a separate workshop and a separate storage area for the trains and modeling supplies. Except for a small narrow area under the stairs, this space has to have everything in it. Along the side wall is the first of 3 storage cabinets.  The cabinets are pretty simple to build with 1/2 ply. My table saw (garage), chop saw and air-nailer makes quick work of the cases. The cases will slide on the floor to match up with the benchwork and may provide a point to secure the benchwork if necessary.  And yes I know several of you who have the same situation and are playing a miniature fiddle in response to my plight - no sympathy.    A case of not appreciating what one has until its gone.   

@mike g.  just a suggestion as you are moving things back and forth as you rebuild your layout - any possibility to making similar storage units to minimize all the moving back and forth? I personally can't stand having to do or move things twice. Right now I am trying to minimize the clutter in order to make some additional progress.

SweetClover room 2

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Hi Jeff, I probably could, but everything I am moving is pretty much everything I took off the layout. I had most of it in the garage, but needed it back in the train room so I could work on things in the garage.

Once done all that will be under the layout will be empty boxes and scenery supplies.  Maybe some rolling stock, but I am trying not to have any rolling stock under it.

I hope with a little bench work up it will help your mind go free with ideas for your layout!

I am glad your friend is ok! The "C" word is really scary!

Last edited by mike g.

Got back to Menards to buy more sheet goods, this time 3/4 ply for a cabinet to hold steam engines. At basically 12x12 this is where the layout plan is today.  I would like to get one side down to 11 feet for added walkway, but anything under 12 foot would help.  I still have to think about the center yard as it does not leave me with much car storage.  On the passenger level I made use of double curves to gain extra track length for 3 passenger trains. Not 8 but it will work. The passenger track will be "hung" below the upper deck so that it can be removed for modeling or repair with a simple drop down.

Sweet Clover 3D

The yellow portion is an open area.  I need to widen the top area to 18 inches or more for easier access. The areas at the bottom are 24 inches.  I'll have to move the passenger tracks left. I can see having a nice long lower level passenger platform on the left side of the layout to show off "prized cars".  A long view would be available looking down the length of the tracks.

For reference blue is lower level, red is transition track and yellow is upper level. Actual placement of track is approximate and positioned to make sure there is enough clearance.   

Sweet Clover SpaceR2

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Jeff, here's some food for thought. The yard on the left can store 14 50' boxcars while the one on the right can store 16. However, the one on the left saves you 2 switches, some fitters, plus quite a bit of aisle space, and looks better. Even if you extend the spurs on the right, you still only get 16 cars because they won't be long enough for another car on each. Of course, cars are different lengths, so it's a crap shoot. And that's not counting the switches, etc., for the wye, so I'm just not sure the payoff to store that many cars is worth the investment. Have you thought about just using the wye/peninsula to turn engines and as an engine maintenance facility or something?

yard

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@DoubleDAZ posted:

Jeff, here's some food for thought. The yard on the left can store 14 50' boxcars while the one on the right can store 16. However, the one on the left saves you 2 switches, some fitters, plus quite a bit of aisle space, and looks better. Even if you extend the spurs on the right, you still only get 16 cars because they won't be long enough for another car on each. Of course, cars are different lengths, so it's a crap shoot. And that's not counting the switches, etc., for the wye, so I'm just not sure the payoff to store that many cars is worth the investment. Have you thought about just using the wye/peninsula to turn engines and as an engine maintenance facility or something?

yard

I agree with Dave. A lot of distance eaten up by traversing the switches. The switches are $$$$$ and the trade off is not that great IMHO. It's all about trade-offs after all.

What about using a straight yard leader with either 072's or numbered switches? The straight tracks can be cut shorter to tighten the space between tracks.

TPRR Yard Test2

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@mike g.  I have about 40 inches of clearance floor to L-girders. That should be plenty of space for a "duck under". However if that gets to be problematic, I would do a pull out section.

@DoubleDAZ and @RSJB18  I agree with the problems with the wye in the space. I had wanted to see what it would do and how it would fit and its impact on the layout width.  I think it eats up too much space with switches.  I would like to use the island for a short grain terminal on one side and an intermodal on the other. Those cars tend to be longer than box cars so track space is at a premium. I have #4s but no #11s.  Cutting the turnouts is something I'll have to think about. I can get away with much tighter curves as I would not run the big iron down there, just the diesels.   

@ScoutingDad posted:

@DoubleDAZ  What would you think about removing the wye and having the entry tracks cross each other? I lose the reversing, but maybe gain yard function? I don't think I have room for the 5th yard spur. I only have 30 inches of width on the lower level.

I will look into that tomorrow. I was thinking the same thing earlier, but didn’t get a chance to play with the idea.

Here's a version with a grain elevator and an intermodal (simulated by stringing dual track signals together ). I moved the 4-way yard over a bit and adjusted the baseboard to show the aisle. I used O72 curves before I realized the switches were O42, so redid it with O42 curves and the 90° to shrink the peninsula a bit for more aisle space. Turn on layers 6 & 8 for a 3D view with opaque decking.

Sweet Clover SpaceR2 daz2

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Last edited by DoubleDAZ

@DoubleDAZ  I think this last plan will work. I'll add another parallel track to the transition.  I have room since I want a hill or something taller to hide the rising track. At the end it can come out of a tunnel and then a cut. It will be open from below so no issues in accessing the track. Plus the hills will be foam and removable as necessary.  I am also thinking about how to address the station with the double main up there as I do not have any more horizontal space.  If I get real adventurous, I'll put a "narrow" gauge up there to run my Shay and lumber cars on a point to point for fun. Crazy operation of the drivers - fascinating to watch go.

@RSJB18 Bob - when you cut down your yard switches how much space did that give you and how close to the points did you go? or can one go?  I need more track in the peninsula. I can see adding one turnout on the curve and maybe another if its short enough. Too bad I sold off a bunch of non-Ross turnouts, I would not have felt bad about chopping those up.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@DoubleDAZ  I think this last plan will work. I'll add another parallel track to the transition.  I have room since I want a hill or something taller to hide the rising track. At the end it can come out of a tunnel and then a cut. It will be open from below so no issues in accessing the track. Plus the hills will be foam and removable as necessary.  I am also thinking about how to address the station with the double main up there as I do not have any more horizontal space.  If I get real adventurous, I'll put a "narrow" gauge up there to run my Shay and lumber cars on a point to point for fun. Crazy operation of the drivers - fascinating to watch go.

@RSJB18 Bob - when you cut down your yard switches how much space did that give you and how close to the points did you go? or can one go?  I need more track in the peninsula. I can see adding one turnout on the curve and maybe another if its short enough. Too bad I sold off a bunch of non-Ross turnouts, I would not have felt bad about chopping those up.

I cut some scale trax 031's down for my yard expansion last year. I'll share more pix and info when I'm at my laptop. The biggest issue is power continuity for the center rail due to shortening the distance between the turnouts.

I am getting ready to cut plywood sections for the lower passenger yard and the upper main line.  I was going to piece the mainline in place, but the extra work and cutting makes little sense. I'll also leave the top wider than necessary to provide an easier transition for the track coming up from the lower station. I have found using the "cookie cutter" approach for these transitions yields the best results for me. The start of the grade is much gentler.  The lower section will be removable with bolts.  Photos later - maybe?

Here you go Jeff-

I didn't cut the turnout leg, just the straight. Now, I was trying to fit 3 031's inside an 027 loop, I'm sure if you are cutting 072's or numbered switches you wouldn't need to cut so much.

2021-03-27 15.58.52

My one issue is a dead spot between the 1st and 2nd switches which stalls some of my engines. I even added some center rail to lessen the issue but I couldn't completely eliminate it. Just do some testing as you go to make sure you have solid power all the way through.

2021-04-01 16.13.51

2021-04-08 07.07.55

Bob

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A quick update. I found out drawing out a possible layout is a lot easier than figuring out how to actually assemble the supporting structure, especially when considering a modular style build.

After laying down test track, i have a better Idea on how all this will fit together and will start the corner pieces this weekend.  This table is 3x8 and handles the town and lower level passenger station. The bottom panel completely slides out to make it easier to lay down the yard track. The front right corner will have to be trimmed to provide for a decreasing grade to access the passenger yard.  It also means adding a leg and cutting a portion of the L-girder.  I've also decided to use a slide out access just to the left of this section. This will have bridges and a water feature which one day will tie into the docks around the intermodal and grain terminals.  I may take a page out of Arnold C's book and use sheeting to simulate water in the planned open areas around the peninsula terminal.

TPRR2 e

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I was waiting to post pics when I got farther along. but getting farther along keeps being pushed out further and further.  You'll have to reference the tracks plans to get the full picture.  I have essentially a 12x12 space to work with. Wish it was bigger, but "c'est la vie"  (Also a terrific song by Emmerson Lake and Palmer.)

I am trying to build this in a sectional format, meaning I can take it out without destroying the layout.  In earlier posts Dave and I went round trying to figure out how to maximize the lower passenger station and freight yard.  I ended up using Ross curved switches in an effort to get as much length out of the space as possible. Where the upper deck starts is a full 8 feet of space going left.  If I do not mind fouling the lower switch - that will give me over 13 feet. Right now this will have 3 long passenger tracks and 4 freight tracks. I'll add a turnout to the top track.  You may notice there is only 4 inches of clearance at the L girder.  That will have to be cut and re-arranged.

lower curve

End view of the upper and lower sections. The upper section is attached to L girders to the extent I can remove a few screws from the legs and the whole assembly come off.  For now the lower yard is a dead end. Note the track in front beginning its long fall into the lower yard.  Total track length for the descent is about 36 feet along the outer edge of the layout - between a 2% and 3% grade.

Main section

The track will come across and turn along the wall to meet up with the yard track coming from the back right.  Not pictured (because that came down in the crash) is a center island which will host an intermodal terminal and grain terminal. The Ross 4 way will provide about 4 feet of track to hold the intermodal cars. To the right will be a 2 (maybe 3) track to support grain operations.  Since the center is an "island",  my wild dreams have it surrounded by water and some sort of freighter simulations.  I will have 2 feet on either side so I can easily reach any spot on the railroad.   

far end

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@Mark Boyce  LOL Mark when I think about the next steps - after I figure out how to support everything and finish off the decking. Then its lay the track and run for a while to see how everything works.  Then pull sections up to paint and detail roadbed and all.  Then build a hill/mountain to cover over the mainline leaving a water route for the inside track (left side of the layout).  Then build a point to point up on the mountain for my Shay to run a simple logging operation.  Then ...  well you know how its goes.  Every time I go down there I keep thinking about other things I could try. The only think I don't see for a while is a layout as "finished" as TPRR 1.

@mike g.  I realize most think I am moving along quickly, to me its a snails pace. I keep overthinking the whole process. But in reality this is much different than laying plywood down on a frame.  I decided to go ahead and build sections I may end up redoing.  My entrance to the center of the layout will be a "bridge" section about 24 inches wide. I want to have a valley floor beneath the bridges. That means a lift anything will not work unless it is one of the Mianne lift devices.  I will try a slide out section first as the floor is slippery tile.

I've used the cheap 1/2" 3 ply on the earlier layout and saw the stuff warp over time. Lots of reasons, but it was clear that stuff is really not very good if you want to have a flat roadbed. I cannot find baltic birch plywood anywhere in Grand Rapids. (that is the 1mm multi-ply stuff - dimensionally stable)  The 1/2 sheets I found has about 7 plies but has a cured finish on both sides. They retail at $80 a sheet. However if you can find damaged ones, the stores will often discount them 20% to 30%.  If I did not want to take the assembly down, I could use 3/4 ply, but that really adds to total weight, which I want to avoid.  @Tom Tee  has built sections with thin ply and framing much like guitar construction, strong but light weight. I do not know yet what the layout will be to go in that direction, but it is elegant.

Mike I have measured 3 times and still cut wood too short many times, so for me it more of knowing what not to do. My "vision" has been changing because my original vision was for a much larger space, the reality of the 12x12 forces me to adapt to reality.  The only way to fit more in, is to change levels and that requires a lot of track to get needed clearances or decide the layout will have track that does not interconnect.  My insistence on the long passenger yard creates lots of opportunities for compromise.

ScoutingDad...This is wonderful and thanks for sharing. I was considering making pullout lower decks for my new expansion portion of our layout. This has given me many ideas a few questions. IF you have time......

1) Can you tell me the specifications of your drawer slides used for the pullout section? ie weight bearing limits etc. I assume they need to be pretty heavy duty!

2) Is the descending portion of your layout (at 2-3% grade) all on a curve? The reason I ask, is that my plan was to have the large portion of my descending grade on a curve, but I am only going to be able to muster a 3.8% grade. Just curious if you have any experience with curved grades and what those experiences may be.

Again, it looks amazing and thanks for sharing!

Last edited by LT1Poncho

@LT1Poncho

Just to be clear,  the bottom section slides out.  Sliding out is meant to be used to install or maintain track as infrequently as necessary or to disassemble the layout.  The lower deck is 1/2" multiply screwed into 1x2s.  I'll add some cross bracing below as it will not interfere with anything and it will correct a slight bow to the panel 30x96.  At the 4 legs I attached a cleat (just above the cross brace) for the assembled panel to rest on. Once in place a screw secures the leg to the deck.

This is not meant to be used like a drawer. Once in place it will pretty much stay there.  If you want more of a drawer action, there are several options depending on load and extension.  The full extension drawer slides work pretty well. The better ones use ball bearings, at a price of course. Maintaining a clearance between the rails will be the bigger issue. Even the good slides will have side play which could rip out the train track if "racked" too much.

lower level detail

As far as curves go, the road bed will have to have a twist in order for the curve ends to align with the opposing ends which are at different elevations. @Tom Tee in his posts shows a way to laminate thin curve sections together forming a long continuous curve section.  To me this is cleanest, most problem avoiding way to lay in a curve at grade.  While you could cut the long curve out of a sheet of plywood, I think it will use up a lot of wood.  As planned the layout will have 2 90 degree curves on a grade.

The original TPRR was nearly all on some type of grade including curves and switches.  But nothing more than 3% and much at 2.5% and lower. I had no issues with running on the curved grades. The curves ranged from 042 to 072 diameter.

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Last edited by ScoutingDad

Jeff, I can’t see your latest photograph, but I think you drawer idea is great!  How many tracks will be at the gap when the drawer is opened and how will you get power to the drawer tracks?  Contacts that match up like my and Mike’s lift bridges?

LT1Poncho, I have approximately 4% grades on my layout in a room a little smaller than Jeff’s, 054 curves.  I haven’t had any issues at all, but I do not run trains fast either.  The fastest is 20 scale MPH as read on the MTH DCS remote.

ScoutingDad……thank you for your reply. I too only planned to use the pullout drawer idea for emergencies. I just felt it would be easier to spend some time engineering the pull out the drawer than crawling under as I get older.

Mark Boyce…..nice to hear that you are using a 4% as I will be very close to that. My descending curve for this portion will be O72 so that should help me out.  I too will be moving the consists slow as I plan my lower level to be mostly freight storage.

I assume the photo now shows up.  LT1Poncho the slide depends on how big and heavy the "drawer" will be.  I am trying to keep everything as light as possible and built in such a way I can take it apart if necessary.  I suggest using some sort of hard wood at the slide areas - they will slide easier.  Then you have to decide whether to support from the sides or from the bottom. Depends on the situation. I suggest using some sort of pinning arrangement to keep everything in alignment.

Mark I like using stereo banana plugs for anything that will be disconnected regularly.  Same style as what MTH uses, but far more robust and I can use 16 gauge stranded stereo wire. I like the gold plated ones where the wire feeds through the center and the strands fold over. A cap screws over the piece creating a solid connection. Many choices out there - there is even one similar to your favored Wago nuts, a little more expensive. 

Yes indeed, I see the photograph now!  Thank you, Jeff!  It looks like lightweight but strong construction to me!  I never heard of anyone using those stereo plugs on a layout, but I think that is a great idea!  They will make a positive connection when pushed in!!  Well done!

Oh, I don’t recall you mentioning the depth of your pullout shelf.  That would make a difference on construction too!  Let me say again, I really like your ideas that are coming to fruition!! 👍🏻👍🏻

Boy once a term gets used its hard to change it up. I can live with the "pullout shelf" term.  To answer Mark's question the lower shelf is 30 inches wide by 8 feet long. Even when the layout is complete, I will be able to slide the entire shelf out.  It will be a lot easier with two people but it is light enough for me to handle by myself. Once it has 6 tracks on top - not so sure.

The shelf has to be removed by sliding it out of the narrow end. This means I need 6 1/2 feet of clearance in order to get it completely out. Good thing that section pretty much looks into a hallway. 

When I get around to laying the track, I'll simply remove the upper section since there is nothing permanent in place.

I hesitate to say this pullout shelf is a novel idea. Many of you do the same for controls and have lift-ups and removable bridges. Having had to rip apart TPRR1, and hoping like heck we find our dream home on water up here, I want to minimize the total destruction and provide for flexibility should I decide to change things up.  I might call this a sectional build. Modular seems more like something intended to be taken apart and reassembled multiple times. Regardless there are lots of great ideas out there on those kind of builds. I will borrow good ideas from where ever I can.   

Sectional is a better term.  What term do you think is best for the “pull out “ shelf?  I was thinking it must be pretty long.  That is great you can pull it out to the hallway.  I agree, there are lots of pull out , lift up, swing out arrangements out there, mine included!  The thing I haven’t seen is a ‘drawer’ that is as bug as one as in a morgue.  😄  My wife is a retired registered nurse, so that is the analogy that came to mind!  

Still working on the railroad!  Here are a couple of pics of the lower level track as it starts its run to the upper level.  I was fixated on cutting curved sections out of a sheet of plywood and perhaps laminating 1/4 ply together. Then saw a guy showing how he made an HO scale helix. BING light bulb went off!

I have always been concerned with wood waste on any of my projects this was no exception. Cutting sweeping curves from plywood sheets would create a lot of waste. Using trapezoids allowed me to cut straight sections, in my case 12 inches thick to accommodate the double track. And then using 4 sections to make the 90 degree turn meant 15 degree angles on the trapezoids.  I made a mock up with cardboard and purely eyeballed the sections would work best at 18 inches long measured across the middle of the trap.  DUH ! The circumference of a circle is pi x D.  The arc length of a 90 degree 72 diameter is about 56.5 inches. The arc length of an 088 section is 69.1.  So the eyeball came in not too bad.  I should have made the sections at 14 inches instead of 12.  Now all I have to do is figure out the corner benchwork to support this and the upper section.  As shown there are 6 inches between center rails.  This will make laying out the single track curve easier.

I can easily adjust the grade from the yard entrance back to the upper level entry point. I'll add stiffeners to the long 1/2 inch thick 8 foot long grade sections as they are a little bendy.

Grade curve 1Grade curve 2

Below is the entrance to the yard with the offending L-girder removed. A little more needs to go.



Yard Curve 

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Update, more benchwork in.  I think I worked out the transition section.  Looks like the grade will be a little over 2% and not the 3% I was concerned about. Installing the supporting risers in a way I can go back and re-adjust so I have a consistent grade.

Here is a photo of the layout as of this evening. Track is just laid in place to get an idea of placement especially for the curves, but also switches.

TPRR2 wide angle

This is a mockup of the center section for the intermodal and grain terminals. Except for the Ross 4way, all the inner loop is Atlas track.  All other track is Ross switches and track, with a few Gargraves flex track sections thrown in.  Not convinced the 4way will work as conceived. As is I will only have 2 to 3 feet past the switch for terminal track. Maybe a 3 way would be better?

TPRR2 center isle

The far left track is rising from the lower level yard. The furthest left track will continue its run to the upper loops. The second track will terminate in a dead end for additional train storage.  This section will probably be split to allow the storage track to be at 0% grade.

TPRR2 incline

My thought right now is to have a water level route for the far right track. The other 4 tracks will be covered by a removable mountain/hill. No switches here - I do not expect problems, but one never knows.

TPRR2 left side

I wonder why sectional track seldom lays in its 90 degree  config - always have to coax it into a 90. Atlas seems to be much better in this regard.  Still have to work on the back left corner and the bridge section in front. 

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Hi all, thanks for the comments.

RE - staging and storage - I learned the value of both from trying to run TPRR1. I kept adding passing tracks, freight yards and ultimately a "below the town" 4 track yard. Taking engines and cars off the tracks, re-boxing and taking replacement trains out was simply not something I wanted to spend my time doing - it took the fun out of running trains.  My sweet spot for running trains is 15 to 30 minutes. I suppose if I had a switching activity or a crew together the time could be extended. BTW many on this forum recommend planning new layouts with plenty of staging and yards - of course that is hard to translate to someone building a new layout especially when their only experience is with simple loops and short trains. I read the same recommendations, but did not comprehend the real meaning until experience reared its head.

RE - materials - I built TPRR1 with 1/2 CDX plywood in order to keep the costs down. Turns out not to be a good idea as this stuff moves, twists and warps all by itself. 1x3 and 1x4 pine works fine. If you can get the stuff out of Sweden, the wood grain is a bit tighter so seems to be more stable. For plywood I was recently searching for baltic birch plywood. Really hard to find right now so the options fall to other "cabinet grade" plywood.  At $50 to $80 a sheet vs $25 to $35 for CDX, and that a new freight car is running up to $100, not a big financial decision to go with the better ply.  So far I invested in 4 sheets -  Less than what I paid for my recent "win" from Cabin Fever.

@Dave_C  You could always consider modifications to your layout to make room.  Many of us are redoing our layouts - for any number of reasons.

Trying different options in corners and the front entry to TPRR2. I've got the inner loop of Atlas track laid to the point I could add power and run a train with a little more work.  I forgot about connecting the double mains as I used my Ross crossover for a connection to the inner loop.  Space is an issue and now I think the only solution is to get a L&R pair of Ross curved 96/72 turnouts mated with a pair of #4s.   

Thanks for your update, Jeff! I was like you and read many times to add staging and storage tracks, but as you stated when I started 7 years ago all I had was 1 engine and maybe 5 cars. It is funny how much you collect as you build because you know as you're going along that I need this, and I need that! LOL

Your information on the plywood is great lesson and looks amazing too boot!

First - its been great seeing all the work being done, the trains run, the building details added ... WOW

One of the things about starting with a blank canvas is there are so many options. They just get reduced as we go along.  I finally decided to go ahead and build out the incline section thinking I can always change it later.  I'll post photos later, not much to see from the previous posts.

My total run from upper section to lower section is about 399 inches and encompasses nearly 3/4 of the way around the outer edge of the layout. That was me wanting a large passenger station and freight yard on a lower level.

In order to make sure the grade was consistent across the distance, I measured distances and heights off the floor at key sections. Since I am building this in sections, each corner is a section and the straights connecting them are sections. In the long straight runs, the 1/2 ply is supported at the edges with 1x2 pine strips for rigidity. That means I only need to support at the ends ... no sag in the middle. Sections are screwed together at the sub-road bed to limit movement relative to each other. Remove the screws and the sections come apart.

After that, it was to the spreadsheet to model the slopes. For the most part I tried to keep changes to the 1/4 inch.  Happy to report I was able to have a 2% grade (roughly)

HIGHLOW
SEGMENT Length080635083555216
TOTAL Length080143193276331383399
Height40.53937.7536.753533.832.7532.75
Increment Height1.51.2511.751.21.050
Grade SEG1.88%1.98%2.00%2.11%2.18%2.02%0.00%
Grade Run1.88%1.92%1.94%1.99%2.02%2.02%1.94%


I also wanted to see if the grades were fairly consistent. A scatter plot shows a pretty consistent slope, although you can see that from the table data.

The graph below shows the initial build - note the change in slope in section 3. The end section is a short level section which holds 2 switches where I wanted a flat lead to avoid operating problems. It was just a matter of playing with the elevation at each section to obtain the slopes. Once the slopes were as I wanted, I went back to the layout and raised or lowered the sections as needed.

Now its lay down some track and see if a car will coast down the grade into the yard.

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@Bill Webb  That must have been quite a bash. 

Our courts of honor probably had 100 to 150 total - maybe more.  With 60 to 80 boys plus parents and siblings it added up pretty quickly. Of course not all the scouts would attend, especially the high schoolers. 

This was a typical summer camp crew for us.  And yes we could hear a train in the distance blowing its horn at crossings - A requirement for any scout campout. The high schoolers usually would go to summer camp as we did not require them to do anything except put on a few campfire skits.

Owisippe2000

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Jeff- things are looking good. I was never into Scouting, did 4H for a few years. I admire your dedication to the Scouts. Same for you @Bill Webb.

Yours and others discussing hidden storage had me fiddling around with the track plan I've been designing for the space where my current layout resides (need one less kid taking up space first).

I was able to add a 7 track yard under the main layout with a run around track that would allow for some subway runs too. I haven't calculated the grades since I may never build this layout but it does work as far as I can tell.

The yellow track is at grade, with the yard lead on the left dropping down, and the red is below the table.

Test Plan 1.0.1_hidden yard

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Bob, as I recall your space is tight.  I like the run around approach.  I suggest you look at running the red track exiting the yard along the back and then down the left side. Use that track length to make the climb to the next level.  Even at a 4% grade you would need 14 1/2 feet plus the transitions. I think you have that length on those two sides. Mine is complicated by the 72 dia curves with the parallel main at 88 dia.

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