“Two powerful motors with momentum flywheel” in the AF SD70ACe's ?

I doubt it.  It seems most of the text and images were cut, modified and pasted from the 2010 Vol 2 catalog.  The Heritage units have incorrect numbers on them, too.

http://www.trainweb.org/richar...age_Photo_Shoot.html

Rusty

Could be the same setup as the new PA's, two vertical can motors.

Rich

2 motors is correct.

SantaFefan: Any chance you can persuade the powers that be to gear this locomotive down slower than the new U33C? I can only use the first 100 speed steps on Legacy before it's ready to fly off the next curve. Disappointing with the rest of the loco being so good that it was geared so high. These new scale locos aren't being purchased and run by six year olds....

Despite my gripe, keep up the good work and keep them coming; any chance of seeing the CY2000 still-born SD-40????

Great minds must think alike!  I requested a gear ratio change for this loco when we started the design process a few months back!  The U33 is 10.5:1; I expect at least 15:1 on this product.

Good Day Jon,

Thanks for the information. How about offering a Atlantic Coast Line SD70ACe in S Scale?

Regards,

Frank

      Drawing by Michael Eby          Painted by Frank Swafford

Hmmm.  The "im"famous China drive?

Strikes me as a step backwards, but I'm willing to reserve full judgment until when they come out.

Now, about those incorrect numbers on the Heritage units...

Rusty

Thanks Jon for the info on the re-gearing effort. I'll definitely have to support you with a purchase.

Well I have the KCS unit on order.  If it runs reasonably close to my SD60 I'll get a second unit but if it runs like the usual China drives do, it will be a lonely shelf queen.  I wonder why they go to the trouble of designing the drive for the U33C and then drop it for the SD70ACe.  Time will tell of course.

Greg

They pretty much have to go this route. The delays on the U33 as I understand were largely due to lack of space. The Legacy components are big. That is one of the things that bothers me. I have my doubts that we will see anything smaller than a U33 unless they redesign the electronics. This is a big reason I thikg that MTH is in a position to jump into the market. Their PS3 electronics are small enough for HO models, but powerful enough for O. S would be a no brainer. I will be very interested to see if Lionel "micronizes" their electronics or if we will just never see smaller engines. I personally prefer smaller equipment so I am taking a wait and see approach.

I have no vested interest in the upcoming SD-modern thingy... but I do understand those that are concerned about the vertical dual drive arrangement.  Haven't seen that type of arrangement perform as good as single horizontal motor w/flywheels in other installations. (i.e. 3 rail.)

Hopefully Lionel's upcoming new-tooling rolling stock will be more in keeping with my era and tastes.

Andre

There seems to be a "cultural" thing at the 3-rail O and Flyer S end of the model railroading spectrum about having two motors.  (Note: This is my opinion only.)  And that is 2 motors = better.  More pulling power, more brute force, pulls a million cars... (Insert Tim Allen grunts here.)

I'm always amused by comments on the 3-rail side when folks there question the pulling power and reliability of a single motor...

While everybody and their brother in the other scales (including O Scale) have used a single central motor for decades with excellent results, this segment seems to love two motors and will not surrender them quietly.

Well, we'll see how well this drive will do in the SD70ACe's.  I'm interested in the MP and a future MKT, more for esthetic reasons more than anything else.  Otherwise, they're way to modern for even the elastic upper end of my scale modeling era and the wrong side of the Mississippi for my HiRail interests.

Still, I'd rather see these new modern diesels available than not.  I think they're a real shot in the arm for S.

Rusty

IMHO there is no reason a vertical motor drive can't be designed to operate well. You have to spend more money on the right gears and such, but it can and HAS been done well. Modern electronics with back EMF load compensation are able to smooth them out even more. I am sick of hearing that it has to be a horizontal motor or it is junk. That just isn't true.  What S (and O for that matter)needs is some innovation. Look at what NWSL has offered recently for HO... A repower truck that has a totally concealed motor in the truck itself. If it can be done in HO it can be done in S. Technically that is... market size not withstanding. 2 small truck mounted direct drive motors would provide more than enough pulling power. There is only so much torque that can be applied before the wheels lose traction and even a much smaller motor would prove adequate. I agree with Rusty that it is more of a cultural thing. When I got my first S scale SHS SW-1 I couldn't believe the size of the motor in that thing it's probably 25-30% of the interior volume! Talk about overkill. With the right gearing you could power a kids electric powerwheel car with that thing.

Good Day,

Two motors in the SD70ACe’s sound great to me. For the 21^st Century Model railroaders these diesel locomotives will be perfect for pulling your favorite intermodal or grain train!

On a side note: I sure hope the Norfolk Southern Heritage SD70ACe’s are produced in S Scale!

Regards,

Swafford

Johnyspeed,

You are correct about the design and cost if applied correctly would make the two motor units just as good.  Track record is contrary though.  Using electronics to correct a problem that could have been designed out of the equation is silly.  I’ve used plenty of two motor units along with single motor units to know I like single motors with good truck gearing.  As far as Lionel spending the money to make slower geared vertical motor units I don’t see it.  They are still aiming at the AF crowd, which like the 3 rail crowd like fast running trains.  The irony is, their U33C design leaves plenty of room for DCC, which I will be using.  But I do give Lionel a big high 5, two thumbs up and what ever else because they are cataloging scale unpowered versions of the SD70ACe.  So I can still get one and run it with my SD60’s.

Greg

Two motor design leaves room for a larger speaker and baffle with more bass response in the fuel tank.

Carl

As I've stated, I'll reserve full judgement on the SD70's drive until when they come out. 

But, I can predict, the vocal hard-core scalers will site this as yet another example on how AF is only "toy trains."  They haven't (and won't) get over floating pilots...

Rusty

Rusty, you are correct in that the final product should be the standard for judgement and that the "hard-core" scalers will not buy this product.  Granted, Lionel has indicated that they are interested in going after this portion of the market but, for better or worse, I  think Lionel could not care less what this facet of the hobby does.  From what I can see, these guys are not very far removed from both the 2R and 3RS crowd in what they would like to see in an acceptable product.  They too have been very outspoken about getting what they want and Lionel has never really produced anything to their standards.  I have to give Lionel its due: they have products that are very good, as-is and they are a marketing powerhouse.  From what I have seen in 3 rail, Lionel will get you to like what they are already making WAY, WAY more frequently than they will develop products that the market claims it wants.  To me, this is why the U33C seemed to be such a departure for them.  Usually, Lionel will come at you with china drives, floating pilots, BEMF cruise control, Leagcy and RS 5 and guess what, it will be a sell-out!  IMO,  Lionel tends to know their markets as whole, better than the factional groups do and then proceedes to sell s#$t loads of product in it.  To be fair and honest to Lionel, their methods are very successful for them as well.   Lastly, at the end of the day, if I want a modern (I guess) diesel in S I have one prototype: the SD60.  IIRC, Overland made one in brass and American Models has both the Spartan cab and Wide Cab versions in plastic.  As a product, even with the quality issues, "china drives" and floating pilots, the new SD70ACE is probably a better overall package than either of those.   What this unfortunately means for the scale/Yahoo crowd is that lionel will proably get more existing 3 railers to buy their new S scale product than the scale/yahoo crowd will forefit and there goes their leverage. 

I couldn't agree more with CSXTroy. It is a minor miracle that Lionel has gone so far as offering scale wheels and couplers. The 3RS and 2 rail O crowd have been screaming for these features for years. Lionel has said on Facebook that they are looking into offering scale wheels for Steam engines going forward in S. And while they are taking scale modelers into account, I think they will likely fall short of going "all the way like the "hardcore scalers" would like. Quite frankly I would guess that there will be far more converts from other scales that will buy these new products than "hardcore s scalers". Lionel tends to know the market very well from a macro level. They need to sell as many trains as possible. Ironically, the more the market grows as a whole, the more likely it will be that products will be made for special interest groups in their niche.