Union Pacific Steam Shop Update • January 29th, 2019 • New Photos

AmeenTrainGuy posted:
Hot Water posted:
AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Could you elaborate more on "... and NOT just for dynamic brake."? What I don't get is how did the bigboy's stop long trains without dynamic braking but cannot stop 5 - 10 passenger cars? 

You are losing sight of the fact that more than 70 than 70 years ago, all they had were train air brakes. Thus, all trains, both freight and passenger used nothing but the brake shoes, which were cast iron at the time, to slow and stop trains. In the modern era with steam specials/excursions the use of a diesel helper in dynamic braking on long down grades, is highly beneficial, plus saves the disc brake pads on the passenger cars.  With that diesel "helper" MU'ed with the steam locomotive, it also can be used in power to stretch water & fuel usage on the steam locomotive. Maybe the steam locomotive is very capable of "pulling the train up the grade all by herself", but at reduced speed, to what point? Why beat the crap out of the poor steam locomotive for absolutely NO REASON, when just a bit of "help" from the diesel will maintain a higher speed and conserve fuel & water on the steam locomotive.

Thank you for the explanation.

So to summarize it seems like the actual steam engine is capable of doing all the work, but UP would rather preserve the life of the engine, get dynamic breaking, and reduce fuel usage by using a modern diesel locomotive to do some of the work.

Depending on the territory that will be operated over, essentially, YES. If there are no seriously long "mountain grades", the the steam locomotive should be able to handle most of the passenger train assignments unassisted. Such was done previous to 2010 with either 844 or 3985, when traveling east or south to such locations as, Chicago, Kansas City, St Louis, Houston, etc..

Hot Water posted:
Dominic Mazoch posted:
FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

I think some of you are under the impression that the locomotive’s brakes are used to slow and stop a train. In the case of a diesel with dynamic brakes, this is true. However, on a steam locomotive, the locomotive’s brakes are NEVER used when braking a train. When a steam locomotive is powering the train, the brakes on the cars are used to slow and stop a train.

The locomotive brake (the Independent Brake) on a steam locomotive is not used when moving because of the heat generated between the brake shoes and the tires. If the tires are heated too much, they could expand enough to get loose and come off. That’s obviously a bad situation!

Adding a second steam locomotive to a train adds nothing in terms of available braking power.

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.

Lack of Situational Awareness?

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

A letter from Ed Dickens • Feb. 4th, 2019

Hello Friends,

Thank you for the patience and understanding as we work through the many very important details involving the release of the schedule. As we plan the operations for this monumental year, we continue to evaluate all network impacts, such as track, bridge, yard and other crucial maintenance projects, to ensure we do not have any conflicts we can’t easily manage with a 605-ton Big Boy.

With this massive network, there is always work occurring somewhere on the system. In many cases there are large system gangs roving about, doing work like replacing ties, rail, undercutting, crossing panels, bridge approach work, ballast... maintaining a rail network for this size is a monumental task. You name a type of maintenance, it is happening at any given time on the Union Pacific.

When we officially release the schedule, it must be something we can execute flawlessly. We are honored to have the support that we do. What we do touches all departments at Union Pacific. Our planning over the years has only improved, as our “on-time” steam locomotive performance is something we take personally. We always want to meet the expectations that were established when we released the schedule. Having a solid plan keeps changes to an absolute minimum, and reduces the impacts our trips will have for not only your planning, but also the planning that affects our network.

It’s very important to bear in mind that the primary purpose of the heritage steam operation is public relations. The primary focus and existence for that well-kept “steel freeway” that we are very fortunate to operate steam on is to provide excellent customer service.

Thank you for reading this message, please share it with your friends and family. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we plan this monumental travel year for UP Steam.

Sincerely,

Ed Dickens and crew

Source: Union Pacific Steam Club

Gary: Rail-fan

Hot Water posted:
AGHRMatt posted:

The diesels aren't necessarily for assistance. Out here, they're very handy for dynamic braking going through the Cajon pass. Also, when 3751 makes a run, the diesels are handy for HEP for the passenger cars.

Which diesels? Non of the BNSF diesel are equipped for HEP. Amtrak diesel do also supply HEP.

UP handles that aspect with a generator car.

Correct, but since 2011 the steam crew have been using more and more diesel "help", and NOT just for dynamic brake.

 

They use Amtrak or Metrolink (So. Cal. Local runs). 3751 "sleeps" at the old Santa Fe roundhouse site and is off-line right now (boiler inspection, I believe). The tender is detached right now.

Matt Jackson
"The best service you can provide for the hobby is to pass on what you have learned."

 Angels Gate Hi-Railers San Pedro, California

"Celebrating 20 years of moving freight and passengers from Point A to Point A!"
E-mail

YouTube Channel

TrainMan1225 posted:

This just in - the 4014 has passed her hydro test today! Next steps will be continued reassembly and STEAM TESTING! It won't be long now...

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

Hot Water posted:

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

The Steam Club email just said that it had passed the hydro test, and that the next steps were to reassemble and steam test the engine...so maybe it's the final hydro. But I'm not a part of their team, I'm just a foamer from Ohio.

Nick

Modeling the Pennsy, I guess.

Pennsy Productions - Bringing you the best railroads of the Midwest - Next stop, Fostoria

“Displaying an old steam engine is like propping up a corpse.” - Paul Merriman

TrainMan1225 posted:
Hot Water posted:

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

The Steam Club email just said that it had passed the hydro test, and that the next steps were to reassemble and steam test the engine...so maybe it's the final hydro. But I'm not a part of their team, I'm just a foamer from Ohio.

OK, right, more confusing "information" from the "Steam Club". Most experienced steam operations conduct a "pre-hydro test" so as not to embarrass themselves in front of the FRA Inspector/Inspectors. Then, after all the little "issues" are corrected, the FRA invitation goes out, and when the FRA responds with a mutually acceptable date, the final hydro is conducted and subsequently approved by the FRA folks.  

Hot Water posted:
TrainMan1225 posted:
Hot Water posted:

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

The Steam Club email just said that it had passed the hydro test, and that the next steps were to reassemble and steam test the engine...so maybe it's the final hydro. But I'm not a part of their team, I'm just a foamer from Ohio.

OK, right, more confusing "information" from the "Steam Club". Most experienced steam operations conduct a "pre-hydro test" so as not to embarrass themselves in front of the FRA Inspector/Inspectors. Then, after all the little "issues" are corrected, the FRA invitation goes out, and when the FRA responds with a mutually acceptable date, the final hydro is conducted and subsequently approved by the FRA folks.  

It was reported that the boiler was filled with hot water (no relation, I assume) last Thursday.  I would assume that they have been doing their preliminary hydros all week.  Per 230.16(b), You must give the FRA 30 days notice prior to the "official" hydro.  Getting the pre-hydros out of the way before making that appointment with the FRA is a luxury that only operations with no operational deadlines can afford.

Hot Water posted:
Casey Jones2 posted:

What I've been wondering lately is why we never see any of the Heritage Diesels go out on the road??

If you are referring to the various Heritage painted diesels, the UP has, they are always "out on the road" all over the system.

If you are referring to the three executive E Units (A-B-A) and the DDA40X, those units are not conducive to hauling freight on a daily basis, plus there aren't that many folks remaining on the UP, in the shops, that know how to troubleshoot & work on them, let alone replacement specialized parts/components.

Gee, that sounds a lot like the excuse some railroads used for eliminating steam way back when!

OLDGUYFROMNJ

Wow...she’s not even completely finished yet and she already looks stunning. I can only imagine how beautiful she’ll be running.

Nick

Modeling the Pennsy, I guess.

Pennsy Productions - Bringing you the best railroads of the Midwest - Next stop, Fostoria

“Displaying an old steam engine is like propping up a corpse.” - Paul Merriman

We all know that real trains, inspire our model trains. The Big Boys have always been popular.

Let’s check out what is new for 2019 from Lionel.

Step 1 Lionel Big BoyStep 2 Lionel Big Boy_edited-1Step 3 Lionel Big Boy Step 4 Lionel Big Boy

Source: Lionel L.C.C. • 6301 Performance Drive Southwest • Concord, NC

Gary: Rail-fan

Attachments

Photos (4)
Hot Water posted:
Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.

I had heard the same thing as a rumor from someone who claimed to be there, been wondering about that for a while if it was accurate.

The direct word from the person this happened to is he didn't 'forget' about the diesel helper. A relay in the diesel control stand in the cab had stuck and didn't drop out allowing to pusher to idle down. It finally disengaged a few seconds later after the train went into emergency. The control stand was thoroughly inspected and a ground fault was discovered. I believe the story, as you just don't 'forget' about 3000 HP pushing at your back. He just happened to be at the throttle when this malfunction occurred.

Kelly Anderson posted:

I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.

Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).I would be more than happy to show you copies of the original EMD Engineering "work sketch" with the late Bruce R. Meyer's name on it.

Both the Pilot Engineer and the UP Steam Crew Engineer, i.e. Ted, verified that he, Ted, simply forgot to throttle back the diesel units when trying to slow for the service stop.

Hot Water posted:
Kelly Anderson posted:

I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.

Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).

I didn't say that there was any issue with the MU control box.  What I was told was that the diesel locomotive itself had a malfunction.  I was told that its internal computerized record recorded that the inputs from the MU control box to throttle back and so on were received, but it continued to put out tractive effort just the same.  However, I wasn't there.  I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.

Kelly Anderson posted:
Hot Water posted:
Kelly Anderson posted:

I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.

Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).

I didn't say that there was any issue with the MU control box.  What I was told was that the diesel locomotive itself had a malfunction. 

Still not true, just another smoke screen.

I was told that its internal computerized record recorded that the inputs from the MU control box to throttle back and so on were received, but it continued to put out tractive effort just the same. 

Again, false information, as I was informed by the UP Mechanical Dept. people that checked the computer on the MU'ed diesel unit, it verified that it responded to EXACTLY what it was told to do from the can of 844.

However, I wasn't there.  I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.

I did talk to more than one witness, however.

 

I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.

Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break. Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!

On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.

And there you have the sixty four thousand dollar question! Ed was NOT on the Engineer's side, but was on the Fireman's side. What got his attention was, when Ted put the brake valve in emergency. Both men had obviously overlooked that the Diesel MU Control Box was STILL dialed up to throttle #7 or #6.

Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break.

Except nothing was worn out nor broken, which was carefully verified.

Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!

On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.

The "new" and much larger "MU Box" has all sorts of color lights, to fully indicate EXACTLY what throttle position the operator is using. Internally, it is still the same electrical design.

 

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks?  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks.  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo. 

Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks?  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

The brownie points stay for life, until the person eventually admits he committed an error. Not to mention all the subsequent damage to the boiler on 844, which took her out of service for about 4 YEARS! Blame for any and all "events" has always been pointed at "others" since January 2011.

My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher.  How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules. Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid. I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.

Chuck Sartor posted:

My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher.  How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules.

Yes,,,,,it certainly DOES sound "ridicules" (sic), but lots of other ridiculous events have happened since January 2011.

Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat

No, he simply reached across Teds lap and pulled the reverser gear into reverse, then cracked the throttle open. When the train went past the Steam Team Mechanical men on the ground, with the drivers locked & sliding on 844 (there was a video of this posted on the internet shortly after), they subsequently heard the diesel drop to idle.

and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid.

Well, that is simply an opinion based statement on your part. You have never actually worked with either of them. Yes, they may not be "stupid" but a number of stupid things have been done.

I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.

I believe the term is "Loss of situational awareness.". It happens.

 

Rayin"S" posted:

It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.

Ray

J 611 posted:
Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks.  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo. 

Yeah, unfortunate for those of us who enjoy restoration projects and have no agenda or personal vendettas always lose out to the couple people who can't resist bloviating the same old tripe they've been posting over the years every time someone shows excitement over UP Steam.

Music, trains, boneless chicken farming
David

Rayin"S" posted:

It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.

Ray, now you're just being silly!

UP steam is a very polarized subject among rail preservation and fan types.

All I know are the facts that can't be disputed (such as when a locomotive is or isn't running or when it obviously is in a condition where it can't run, such as being taken apart for whatever reason). I have no opinion as I have no actual facts.

There are clearly agendas in both directions, and I'll never know for sure who was right about any of it.

The only sad part in my opinion is that even when (and I believe it's a 'when' at this point, not an 'if') 4014 starts running, a moment that should leave each one of us in child-like amazement, there'll still be haters and lots of them. Don't forget all the people who thought that 844 was 'ruined' by the removal of the mars light on the head end...

Ed and the boys might be the ultimate source of evil in the universe as they're accused of being. I have no clue either way. I just want to see 4014 on the road in steam and hopefully someday alongside a running 3985 and 844 at the same time!

Add Reply



OGR Publishing, Inc. PO Box 218, Hilliard, OH 43026 330-757-3020
www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
×