Big Boy #4014 moves under power for the first time in over 50 years • The UP is bringing out the 4014, see schedule 🚂

Yawn...

A direct link to the video

https://youtu.be/Plt6UgVo9x4

Wow!  UP corporation is providing funds to rebuild one of the largest locomotives ever to ride the American rails. Wow! UP will be allowing the UP 4014 to ride their 32000 miles of rail in 23 states to celibrate the 150th anniversary of the joining of the US transcontinental railroad. Wow! Progress is being made on the restoration of Bigboy UP 4014 to celebrate this historic event!! Wow! Sorry but this is a pretty big deal! Thanks for posting Gary!

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Yawn...

Rich, I'm reminded of a retired CEO of a fortune 100 company telling me that "There is nothing so former as a former CEO."

As for your comment, 

I will be in Ogden in May, any other forum members going to the Historical society meeting? 

I’ll be chasing it somewhere. 

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Yawn...

LMAO.

question for Hot Water, you stated in an interview maybe on Notch six that when 3985 was converted to  oil, it took six months to figure how to properly draft the fire on the challenger.  If correct, I’m wondering how the UP steam crew can do the same with May right around the corner.  How difficult was it on 3895?

now keep it  sane people, and respectful. 

Thanks, Gary for posting it. It is impressive work. We're told that Laramie will be one of the first runs. 

superwarp1 posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Yawn...

LMAO.

question for Hot Water, you stated in an interview maybe on Notch six that when 3985 was converted to  oil, it took six months to figure how to properly draft the fire on the challenger.

Actually it took a lot longer than six months (I don't remember staying that anyway). It took some years to sort out the proper drafting in order to improve the ease in firing 3985.

 If correct, I’m wondering how the UP steam crew can do the same with May right around the corner.

I don't care to speculate.

 How difficult was it on 3895?

She was EXTREMELY difficult to fire, plus she made LOTS of smoke, no mate what you did!

now keep it  sane people, and respectful. 

LaramieJoe posted:

Thanks, Gary for posting it. It is impressive work. We're told that Laramie will be one of the first runs. 

I'm pretty sure that Cheyenne to Laramie will NOT be one of the "first runs" for 4014. Historically, break-in runs for the steam locomotives out of Cheyenne, run south towards Denver, where there is a good sized wye for turning the whole consist (about halfway to Denver, but can't remember the name of the town, maybe Greely?).

Close, I think you are thinking of LaSalle.

Tranz4mr posted:

Wow!  UP corporation is providing funds to rebuild one of the largest locomotives ever to ride the American rails. Wow! UP will be allowing the UP 4014 to ride their 32000 miles of rail in 23 states to celibrate the 150th anniversary of the joining of the US transcontinental railroad.

WOW! I can't wait! The UP main line runs a mile from my house. We haven't had a big articulated steamer near Chicago since the early nineties......WOW!

Que the "Ed Dickens is the Devil Incarnate" comments!

Great news to hear from them there at the UP Steam Shop. She'll be quite a sight to see! Probably the most impressive feature so far from that video is all the various parts and precise machining that goes into getting everything to fit precisely together and function properly. Impressive! 

LaramieJoe posted:

Thanks, Gary for posting it. It is impressive work. We're told that Laramie will be one of the first runs. 

Hi Dr. Russo: Your welcome, yes it is very impressive and historic. We are seeing railroad history as it happens. Jim Wrinn: Editor of “Trains Magazine” has been reporting on the Union Pacific Steam Shop for the past several years. Jim and his reporters will be out west to cover this story and the “Transcontinental Railroad Sesquicentennial”.

I post my e-mail address in my OGR Forum Home Page, please forward me any information you have from Laramie as related to the UP Steam Shop and the Sesquicentennial.

Thanks: Rail-fan & take care.

What a gigantic undertaking!  If they can do that, is 4294 a possibility?

bob2 posted:

What a gigantic undertaking!  If they can do that, is 4294 a possibility?

No. SP cab froward is beautifully stuffed & mounted within the California State RR Museum, and is the only SP cab forward remaining in the world. There were 8 UP 4000 class locomotives saved.

Hot Water posted:

superwarp1 posted:

 How difficult was it on 3895?

She was EXTREMELY difficult to fire, plus she made LOTS of smoke, no mate what you did!

 

 

Jack,

How much of that was due to the relatively light trains and therefore lesser draft on the fire?  The overwhelming comment I've been told by the majority of those that had the chance on the NS side of things was that 611 was far easier to fire than 1218 because the J was actually working as opposed to the A being so overpowered it would drift more often than not.  The one differing comment was one who preferred the 1218 since it was far easier to catch up if you got behind--no surprise.

Kevin

kgdjpubs posted:

Hot Water posted:

superwarp1 posted:

 How difficult was it on 3895?

She was EXTREMELY difficult to fire, plus she made LOTS of smoke, no mate what you did!

 

 

Jack,

How much of that was due to the relatively light trains and therefore lesser draft on the fire? 

Not really, as no matter how hard my Engineer worked her, 3985 was simply a bear to maintain 280psi steam pressure AND a proper level of water in the glass, without large volumes of black smoke. She was converted from coal burning to oil burning in 1989/1990 in preparation for the 10th anniversary celebration of the California State RR Museum. Every time I fired her, it was a bi&%$, until about 200 or 2001 when additional firebrick was added (for more/better heat retention) and the air intake tubes were corrected. After those improvements, made by the PE from the Hawaiian Boiler Company that was there in Cheyenne putting the complete new firebox in 844, I no longer had difficulty maintaining proper boiler pressure AND water in the gauge glass, with very little smoke.  

The overwhelming comment I've been told by the majority of those that had the chance on the NS side of things was that 611 was far easier to fire than 1218 because the J was actually working as opposed to the A being so overpowered it would drift more often than not.  The one differing comment was one who preferred the 1218 since it was far easier to catch up if you got behind--no surprise.

Kevin

What I've been wondering lately is why we never see any of the Heritage Diesels go out on the road??

Casey Jones2 posted:

What I've been wondering lately is why we never see any of the Heritage Diesels go out on the road??

If you are referring to the various Heritage painted diesels, the UP has, they are always "out on the road" all over the system.

If you are referring to the three executive E Units (A-B-A) and the DDA40X, those units are not conducive to hauling freight on a daily basis, plus there aren't that many folks remaining on the UP, in the shops, that know how to troubleshoot & work on them, let alone replacement specialized parts/components.

Plus to add none of them are operable at the moment.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Plus to add none of them are operable at the moment.

Do you know why they are not operable?

Not specifically, but both the double D and the E's have engine problems.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Not specifically, but both the double D and the E's have engine problems.

Funny how times have changed. Both the Executive E Units and the DDA40X were always assigned to Cheyenne, and generally maintained by the Steam Crew, prior to 2011. Apparently none of the newer folks at the Cheyenne Steam Shop know anything about those "historic" diesel units, thus the units are shown as "out of service".

Pingman posted:

Rich, I'm reminded of a retired CEO of a fortune 100 company telling me that "There is nothing so former as a former CEO."

As for your comment, 

Yeah...you’re right. I’m about as “former” as you can get. And I like it this way. 👍🏼

As for my comment, I’m sorry, but I just can’t get interested in a steam locomotive that will be all show and no go while the diesel coupled behind it does all the work.

I thought the 3 E units were rebuilt to have GP38-2 prime movers.  Were the brake systems upgraded at the same time?

Was not the problem with the one 4000 converted to oil was it used a lot of it.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I thought the 3 E units were rebuilt to have GP38-2 prime movers.

Yes, they were, but that doesn't mean anyone at Cheyenne knows anything about them.

  Were the brake systems upgraded at the same time?

Yes.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Was not the problem with the one 4000 converted to oil was it used a lot of it.

Yes, #4005 did use lots of oil fuel, and as a result the UP did NOT want to invest in an oil fueling facility on Sherman Hill, for just one class of only 25 locomotives. Thus, #4005 was converted back to coal burning.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I am a bit confused. Will the bigboy be able to run without a diesel engine coupled to it?

Hopefully, yes.

Why is it that the diesel engine has to do all the work while the steam engine is just there for show?

Lots depends on the size/weight of the passenger train behind and the grades. The diesel is also used primarily for dynamic braking on steep/long down grades. Previously, i.e. prior to 2011, many steam operations on the UP were operated without any diesel, in non-heavy grade territories.

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I am a bit confused. Will the bigboy be able to run without a diesel engine coupled to it?

Hopefully, yes.

Why is it that the diesel engine has to do all the work while the steam engine is just there for show?

Lots depends on the size/weight of the passenger train behind and the grades. The diesel is also used primarily for dynamic braking on steep/long down grades. Previously, i.e. prior to 2011, many steam operations on the UP were operated without any diesel, in non-heavy grade territories.

 

Is there something about the way 4014 is being restored that will reduce its braking capability?

Or does the need for a diesel on grades reflect some other change in the way 4014 would be operated today, vs when the Big Boys were in regular service?

Professor Chaos posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I am a bit confused. Will the bigboy be able to run without a diesel engine coupled to it?

Hopefully, yes.

Why is it that the diesel engine has to do all the work while the steam engine is just there for show?

Lots depends on the size/weight of the passenger train behind and the grades. The diesel is also used primarily for dynamic braking on steep/long down grades. Previously, i.e. prior to 2011, many steam operations on the UP were operated without any diesel, in non-heavy grade territories.

 

Is there something about the way 4014 is being restored that will reduce its braking capability?

Or does the need for a diesel on grades reflect some other change in the way 4014 would be operated today, vs when the Big Boys were in regular service?

Most likely there will be a diesel in the consist to provide enough additional power that the Big Boy can get enough miles between needing water and fuel that they won't have to stop and refuel/water as often.  Even converted to oil the engine will need a bunch of liquids if it's out on it's own power...

Professor Chaos posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I am a bit confused. Will the bigboy be able to run without a diesel engine coupled to it?

Hopefully, yes.

Why is it that the diesel engine has to do all the work while the steam engine is just there for show?

Lots depends on the size/weight of the passenger train behind and the grades. The diesel is also used primarily for dynamic braking on steep/long down grades. Previously, i.e. prior to 2011, many steam operations on the UP were operated without any diesel, in non-heavy grade territories.

 

Is there something about the way 4014 is being restored that will reduce its braking capability?

No. Steam locomotives essentially have no braking ability, unless they are running/moving light, i.e. without any train. One of the golden rules of operating a steam locomotive is; NEVER use the engine brakes when slowing a train!

Or does the need for a diesel on grades reflect some other change in the way 4014 would be operated today, vs when the Big Boys were in regular service?

Back in the days of steam, the train brakes were used, as that was the ONLY way of maintaining train speed on depending grades. With the advent of diesel, which were equipped with dynamic brakes, the use of train braking was drastically reduced, resulting in major reductions in brake shoe wear and wheel wear. The UP thus adds a modern diesel unit which can be used as need for addition pulling power with a heavy passenger train, and saves disc brake shoe and wheel wear, by using the dynamic brake on the diesel unit.

I have to ask, why do Union Pacific steam locomotives always have to have a diesel behind them? And who's to say it's doing all the work? I think the Big Boy should be able to handle terrain like that solo with no problem.

Hot Water posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

What I've been wondering lately is why we never see any of the Heritage Diesels go out on the road??

If you are referring to the various Heritage painted diesels, the UP has, they are always "out on the road" all over the system.

If you are referring to the three executive E Units (A-B-A) and the DDA40X, those units are not conducive to hauling freight on a daily basis, plus there aren't that many folks remaining on the UP, in the shops, that know how to troubleshoot & work on them, let alone replacement specialized parts/components.

Right...Thanks as referring to the Executive E Units and the DDA40X 

I just found a UP tour video from last year that explains why these units are sitting. Seems none of the "pilot" engineers like the DDA40X as it rides too rough and the E Units need new wheels as the truck frames are so low that they hit stuff while going thru a grade crossing?

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

So it seems like the real issue is the braking power of the bigboy rather than its pulling power after it is restored is that right?

Pretty much, yes.

The DDA40X seems to be a very loud locomotive.

But to me it would be nice to have it around for 2019.  They were nicknamed the CENTENNIALS?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The DDA40X seems to be a very loud locomotive.

Yes, since it was the highest HP locomotive with high capacity 16-645F series engines, WITHOUT any exhaust silencer on the turbo exhaust. The "Dash 2" series of units, which came out in 1972, all had exhaust silencers.

But to me it would be nice to have it around for 2019.  They were nicknamed the CENTENNIALS?

Yes, being delivered in time for the 100th anniversary of the Gold Spike event (May 10, 1969), the UP numbered them in the 6900 series, and referred to as "Centennials".

To sign up for the Union Pacific Steam Club. Click here

Steam Club members get the latest news and scheduling information about Union Pacific’s legendary steam train program! By signing up with your email address you’ll get:

• Immediate notification of all No. 844 and No. 4014 train schedules, tour stops and other excursion-related activities.
• Exclusive news and updates about the UP Steam program direct from the Cheyenne Roundhouse.
• Insider-only video access to UP's steam giants from rail-side to the shop floor.

You'll also get a special invitation to join the UP Steam Club Facebook Group where fans get in on the action by submitting their own photos, videos and memories of The Big Boy and the Living Legend!

• Upload your favorite photos and video of No. 844 and No. 4014!
• Share your steam knowledge via the group discussion area!
• Participate in live Q&As with members of the UP Steam Team!

Gary: Rail-fan

Is there a fee or anything to join the Steam Club or is it free?

TrainMan1225 posted:

Is there a fee or anything to join the Steam Club or is it free?

Maybe you should try, and then let us all know.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Is there a fee or anything to join the Steam Club or is it free?

Free. They just posted a quick video saying that the boiler is full of water and hydrostatic testing is imminent.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Is there a fee or anything to join the Steam Club or is it free?

The best things in life are free and so is the Union Pacific Steam Club. "Free"

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

TrainMan1225 posted:

Is there a fee or anything to join the Steam Club or is it free?

The best things in life are free and so is the Union Pacific Steam Club. "Free"

Gary: Rail-fan

Sweet! Count me in!

I have heard that they are now working on 4014's tender instead of the tender from 3985. Is this true? Or just another un-confirmed rumor?

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Pingman posted:

Rich, I'm reminded of a retired CEO of a fortune 100 company telling me that "There is nothing so former as a former CEO."

As for your comment, 

Yeah...you’re right. I’m about as “former” as you can get. And I like it this way. 👍🏼

As for my comment, I’m sorry, but I just can’t get interested in a steam locomotive that will be all show and no go while the diesel coupled behind it does all the work.

The same thing could be said about a lot of mainline steam locomotives including NKP 765 Rich...can't we just be happy we get to witness this? I guess not. 

I believe the 4014's tender does not have a oil bunker. Originally (and likely still is) the 3985's tender was planned to be used has it has the oil bunker already in place. And no, they are not completely identical.

What is different, aside from oil vs. coal?   I will go double check my references (mostly Kratville) but they sure look identical to me.

Tops are of a different couture. Hardware is different depending coal or oil. I don't believe the Big Boy tender has passenger steam connections. (As built)

Kelly Anderson posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

I have heard that they are now working on 4014's tender instead of the tender from 3985. Is this true? Or just another un-confirmed rumor?

What difference does it make?  They are identical, and able to be swapped back and forth in a couple of hours. 

Really? The fact that 4014's tender is still coal, and 3985's tender has already been converted to oil (back in 1989/1990) doesn't mean anything?

I thought I read somewhere that all of the oil conversion stuff for 3985 was taken off 3977 in exchange for UP doing a cosmetic restoration on it? I've also heard it speculated that some or all of 3985's oil stuff is being used on 4014.. But I have no knowledge about that...

jethat posted:

I thought I read somewhere that all of the oil conversion stuff for 3985 was taken off 3977 in exchange for UP doing a cosmetic restoration on it?

Only partially true.

I've also heard it speculated that some or all of 3985's oil stuff is being used on 4014..

Correct. Also all of the UP/CNW cab signal & ATC equipment, and 3985's tender.

But I have no knowledge about that...

I thought the late 4-8-4, late 4-6-6-4, and 4-8-8-4's were spec'ed by UP and ALCO to use common parts where possible?  Guess a tender is a "part"?  And were not all three classes coal burners as built from ALCO?

Guess they are using the MU box from 3985 also?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I thought the late 4-8-4, late 4-6-6-4, and 4-8-8-4's were spec'ed by UP and ALCO to use common parts where possible?  Guess a tender is a "part"?  And were not all three classes coal burners as built from ALCO?

Guess they are using the MU box from 3985 also?

The UP had/has only one "Diesel MU Box", and simply moved it from 844 to 3985 and back, as needed.

My first question: At the Union Pacific Steam Club

Why does that Union Pacific Big Boy 4014, have a diesel pusher behind the Big Boy engine? Thanks 

This is a review of all the answers: Running on a class one railroad requires more braking to be onboard than the steamer provides and adds dynamic braking as well. Plus electrical power for the passenger cars. Also clearing the main line in case of a breakdown. The Union Pacific has liability insurance and the insurance company want back up locomotives for safety and to get the passengers to a safe area if the Big Boy breaks down. These are just some of the reasons and there are more technical issues to be resolved like PTC. (Positive Train Control) 

Source: “Union Pacific Steam Club ” • Excerpts from 25 answers

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

My first question: At the Union Pacific Steam Club

Why does that Union Pacific Big Boy 4014, have a diesel pusher behind the Big Boy engine? Thanks 

This is a review of all the answers: Running on a class one railroad requires more braking to be onboard than the steamer provides and adds dynamic braking as well. Plus electrical power for the passenger cars.

Not true, as NONE of the UP diesel electric locomotives have HEP capability. The UP passenger car fleet have their own HEP power cars which supply all the electrical needs of the passenger cars. Plus, the Steam Crew has their own "power car", i.e. the Boiler/Dormitory car "Howard Fogg". 

Also clearing the main line in case of a breakdown. The Union Pacific has liability insurance and the insurance company want back up locomotives for safety and to get the passengers to a safe area if the Big Boy breaks down. These are just some of the reasons and there are more technical issues to be resolved like PTC. (Positive Train Control) 

Concerning the PTC comment, it would make no difference whether the trailing diesel unit/units are equipped with PTC or not, as the LEAD LOCOMOTIVE must have PTC, i.e. either FEF-3 #844 or #4014, in order for it to be in the lead/controlling position.

Source: “Union Pacific Steam Club ” • Excerpts from 25 answers

Gary: Rail-fan

Kelly Anderson posted:

trainroomgary posted:

My first question: At the Union Pacific Steam Club

Why does that Union Pacific Big Boy 4014, have a diesel pusher behind the Big Boy engine? Thanks 

 

I didn't know that it did.  Please post a photo of #4014 with a diesel pusher.

Hi Kelly: There is no photo available at this time. The 4014 is still in the steam shop. The 844 does have photos of a diesel being used. 

Hope this helps: Gary

trainroomgary posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

trainroomgary posted:

My first question: At the Union Pacific Steam Club

Why does that Union Pacific Big Boy 4014, have a diesel pusher behind the Big Boy engine? Thanks 

 

I didn't know that it did.  Please post a photo of #4014 with a diesel pusher.

Hi Kelly: There is no photo available at this time. The 4014 is still in the steam shop. The 844 does have photos of a diesel being used. 

Hope this helps: Gary

OK then, why would you ask such a question about 4014?

Hot Water posted:

trainroomgary posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

trainroomgary posted:

My first question: At the Union Pacific Steam Club

Why does that Union Pacific Big Boy 4014, have a diesel pusher behind the Big Boy engine? Thanks 

 

I didn't know that it did.  Please post a photo of #4014 with a diesel pusher.

Hi Kelly: There is no photo available at this time. The 4014 is still in the steam shop. The 844 does have photos of a diesel being used. 

Hope this helps: Gary

OK then, why would you ask such a question about 4014?

OK then, why would you ask such a question about 4014?

Hi Hot Water: because Rich said the following on page one of this thread. “diesel coupled behind does all the work”.

Is this true? "the diesel coupled behind does all the work."

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

OK then, why would you ask such a question about 4014?

Hi Hot Water: because Rich said the following on page one of this thread. “diesel coupled behind does all the work”.

Is this true? "the diesel coupled behind does all the work."

Gary: Rail-fan

Maybe they will put a diesel behind it.  Maybe they won't.  844 went to Memphis in 2016 without a diesel.  Came back with one.  Most likely chance is that 4014 goes west hauling about 5 cars, which is the typical UP consist as of late.  It's a dog and pony show.  Chances of UP ever hooking up enough train behind that thing to make it work are somewhere between slim and none.  Best chance was Frontier Days, and now that's gone.

A lot of people interested in steam engines like to hear them work, especially the people that crew them.  That isn't going to happen here.  It will be a great show.  It will be fun.  It will be cool.  It's something a lot of people have never seen, and never thought they would be able to see.  It will be nothing like what the engine was designed for and used for in the steam era.....and for some people, hauling 5 cars loafing around, whether there is a diesel or not behind it, is a breaking point, and I totally understand that line of thought.

It's the equivalent of seeing a mainline locomotive like 611 run 10mph at Spencer.  Been there, done that.  It can be fun, and there are friends to see.  It's close to home, so it's cheap.....but it's nothing like seeing the engine on the mainline climbing Blue Ridge or Christiansburg Mountain with 20 cars tied to the tender.  That is worth the trip every time, whether to ride or chase.  Its a very impressive show.  That's what Rich is getting at.  The intended use isn't enough to get excited over.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I hope I am, but I'm not holding my breath either.

I thought there was talk of them doubleheading 844 and 4014.  Has that been ruled out?  if they did doublehead would a diesel still be necessary; if nothing else for braking?

John Mills posted:

I thought there was talk of them doubleheading 844 and 4014.  Has that been ruled out? 

No, not yet.

if they did doublehead would a diesel still be necessary; if nothing else for braking?

A diesel is always welcome for dynamic braking assistance on those long western downgrades.

Kelly Anderson posted:

kgdjpubs posted:

It will be nothing like what the engine was designed for and used for in the steam era.....and for some people, hauling 5 cars loafing around, whether there is a diesel or not behind it, is a breaking point, and I totally understand that line of thought.

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power.

Of course that is a pointless request, those people will be out in force, *****ing endlessly about how it is completely unsatisfactory, and if they had been in charge, things would have been completely different and oh so much better. 

I suspect they will be there anyways.  I tend to remember the same remarks for 1218 as well back in the day.  The thing was so overpowered that it didn't make much noise on large parts of the system.  I never got a chance to see 3985 run, but I suspect similar comments were made.  Still, like 4014, it is pretty cool to see something like that running under its own power.  Any steam, especially steam on the mainline, is a good thing and not to be taken for granted.  Should be a fun time.

Too bad there will not be a "steam pull" contest between 4014 and a C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Too bad there will not be a "steam pull" contest between 4014 and a C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

Who is restoring a C&O H-8?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Too bad there will not be a "steam pull" contest between 4014 and a C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

Actually, it would be a pushing contest:

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Too bad there will not be a "steam pull" contest between 4014 and a C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

Who is restoring a C&O H-8?

Just wishing!  See who really was the best of the best#

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I don't get why people have to hate on Union Pacific. They could have just said F you to the big boy and not restored it. Instead, the company spent millions on equipment, parts, and labor to restore the locomotive.

Rather than spending only about 25% of that on continuing maintenance and the FRA mandated 15 year inspection on Challenger 3985.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I don't get why people have to hate on Union Pacific. They could have just said F you to the big boy and not restored it. Instead, the company spent millions on equipment, parts, and labor to restore the locomotive.

Rather than spending only about 25% of that on continuing maintenance and the FRA mandated 15 year inspection on Challenger 3985.

What happened to 3985?

Absolutely NOTHING! The current manager wanted #4014, and subsequently stuffed poor 3985 into the last stall of the roundhouse, back in the winter of 2010/2011.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Too bad there will not be a "steam pull" contest between 4014 and a C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

Who is restoring a C&O H-8?

Just wishing!  See who really was the best of the best#

 Neither. An N&W y6 would out pull them both.But...that's for another thread.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I don't get why people have to hate on Union Pacific. They could have just said F you to the big boy and not restored it. Instead, the company spent millions on equipment, parts, and labor to restore the locomotive.

Rather than spending only about 25% of that on continuing maintenance and the FRA mandated 15 year inspection on Challenger 3985.

What happened to 3985?

Absolutely NOTHING! The current manager wanted #4014, and subsequently stuffed poor 3985 into the last stall of the roundhouse, back in the winter of 2010/2011.

Do you think a triple header with 4014, 3985, and 844 is possible? 

NO.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I don't get why people have to hate on Union Pacific. They could have just said F you to the big boy and not restored it. Instead, the company spent millions on equipment, parts, and labor to restore the locomotive.

Rather than spending only about 25% of that on continuing maintenance and the FRA mandated 15 year inspection on Challenger 3985.

What happened to 3985?

Absolutely NOTHING! The current manager wanted #4014, and subsequently stuffed poor 3985 into the last stall of the roundhouse, back in the winter of 2010/2011.

Do you think a triple header with 4014, 3985, and 844 is possible? 

Maybe, but it would be Foamer City if it happened.

And the big question:  Where can you run a BB locomotive?  Length?  Weight? 14 wheel tender?  North Platte to Ogden, OK?   Hopefully they have checked the railroad for more places to run.  Withoit any fore seen isdues.

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And the big question:  Where can you run a BB locomotive?  Length?  Weight? 14 wheel tender?  North Platte to Ogden, OK?   Hopefully they have checked the railroad for more places to run.  Withoit any fore seen isdues.

By and large, it should be able to go the majority of places you can take 844 or 3985.  I'm sure there are a few spots here and there where you might have an issue turning it on a wye or getting it into a display site..."mundane", but important, concerns.  I'd be surprised if most of the mainlines themselves present many issues.  It's the side tracks and switches once you get off the mainline to tie up for the night where you might find some issues.

They know where it will make it and that is where they will go .

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

 

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

ROFLMAO, FOC-R--Good one!!!

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

I won't be going either but not because this planned event is not interesting.  You imply the restoration and likely operation of one of the biggest, strongest, and successful steam locomotive types in U.S. history is not interesting? Really?

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

R. Hales posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

I won't be going either but not because this planned event is not interesting.  You imply the restoration and likely operation of one of the biggest, most powerful, and successful steam locomotives in U.S history is not interesting? Really?

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

Exactly.

Pingman posted:

R. Hales posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

I won't be going either but not because this planned event is not interesting.  You imply the restoration and likely operation of one of the biggest, most powerful, and successful steam locomotives in U.S history is not interesting? Really?

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

Exactly.

The Big boy was not the biggest nor was it the most powerful or the most successful. I think its cool they restore one. I dont like the fact that the restoration comes at the expense of other equipment in the historic UP steam shop. including 3985 witch IS actually the most successful (based on number built) Articulated design of the steam age.

jethat posted:

Pingman posted:

R. Hales posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

I won't be going either but not because this planned event is not interesting.  You imply the restoration and likely operation of one of the biggest, most powerful, and successful steam locomotives in U.S history is not interesting? Really?

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

Exactly.

The Big boy was not the biggest nor was it the most powerful or the most successful. I think its cool they restore one. I dont like the fact that the restoration comes at the expense of other equipment in the historic UP steam shop. including 3985 witch IS actually the most successful (based on number built) Articulated design of the steam age.

I thought the Big Boy was the largest ever built?

 

The Big boy was not the biggest nor was it the most powerful or the most successful. I think its cool they restore one. I dont like the fact that the restoration comes at the expense of other equipment in the historic UP steam shop. including 3985 witch IS actually the most successful (based on number built) Articulated design of the steam age.

I thought the Big Boy was the largest ever built?

No, it was not the largest ever built.  But it was one of  the largest, more powerful, and successful steam engine types with 25 built.  It was not the heaviest or longest of all engine types and did not possess the most tractive effort.  But it was up there!

R. Hales posted:

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

And I remember when the Union Pacific steam program meant actually running steam locomotives, not shoving them around with diesels.

In my opinion, this contrived dog and pony show has very little to do with “trains.”

jethat posted:

The Big boy was not the biggest nor was it the most powerful or the most successful. I think its cool they restore one. I dont like the fact that the restoration comes at the expense of other equipment in the historic UP steam shop. including 3985 witch IS actually the most successful (based on number built) Articulated design of the steam age.

I wouldn't say the Challenger type is the most successful articulated design; the number made does not directly constitute whether the design is successful or not. I would say the best articulated steam locomotive designs come from the N&W. The A's were smaller than the Challengers, but had up to 126,000 lbs of tractive effort, which is almost as powerful as the Big Boys. And don't even get me started on the Y6's...

Now a Y6 would be someting to see.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now a Y6 would be someting to see.

Travel to Roanoke, Va and view the Y6a #2156.

The argument about "best" just doesn't have much meaning unless "best" is put in context.  Different engines are built for different jobs. 

A different example.  Lots of folks here adore the NYC Hudsons, and they were very good at what they were designed for:  high-speed passenger service on the Water-level Route.  But bring them out here and put them on the roller-coaster profile of the Frisco or the Mopac, and they would have limped home with their tails between their legs while a much less glamorous (and maybe even homebuilt) 4-8-2 did the job with aplomb.

T.E., HP, driver diameter, grate area, etc., etc. are a set of variables that allow for excellent specialization.  Those big articulateds excelled in the roles they were designed for, but, as just the pair of Big boys and Challengers demonstrate, they were not interchangeable.

kgdjpubs posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And the big question:  Where can you run a BB locomotive?  Length?  Weight? 14 wheel tender?  North Platte to Ogden, OK?   Hopefully they have checked the railroad for more places to run.  Withoit any fore seen isdues.

By and large, it should be able to go the majority of places you can take 844 or 3985.  I'm sure there are a few spots here and there where you might have an issue turning it on a wye or getting it into a display site..."mundane", but important, concerns.  I'd be surprised if most of the mainlines themselves present many issues.  It's the side tracks and switches once you get off the mainline to tie up for the night where you might find some issues.

That engine shoudl be able to run on most UP main lines.  The axle loading of the main engine (34 tons) is less than that of a 110 ton grain car (37.5 tons.).  So the main constraint is the location of wyes with heavy rail.

John Mills posted:

I thought there was talk of them doubleheading 844 and 4014.  Has that been ruled out?  if they did doublehead would a diesel still be necessary; if nothing else for braking?

Why would you even think about a need for another engine for braking.  A Big Boy has the pump and air resevoir capacity for braking long freight trains down Sherman Hill.

I think some of you are under the impression that the locomotive’s brakes are used to slow and stop a train. In the case of a diesel with dynamic brakes, this is true. However, on a steam locomotive, the locomotive’s brakes are NEVER used when braking a train. When a steam locomotive is powering the train, the brakes on the cars are used to slow and stop a train.

The locomotive brake (the Independent Brake) on a steam locomotive is not used when moving because of the heat generated between the brake shoes and the tires. If the tires are heated too much, they could expand enough to get loose and come off. That’s obviously a bad situation!

Adding a second steam locomotive to a train adds nothing in terms of available braking power.

Here's an dumb question. That's a "water bottle" between UP 3985's tender and the diesel? Does the water flow from it, into the 3985's tender? Gravity? Pump?

I believe the photo is from Frontier Days, July 2004, in Carr Colorado. Hot Water …. who may be in the cab?

Thanks

EBT Jim posted:

Here's an dumb question. That's a "water bottle" between UP 3985's tender and the diesel?

Yes. Normally referred to as an auxiliary water tender/tank.

Does the water flow from it, into the 3985's tender? Gravity?

Yes, by gravity. There are 2 1/2" fire hose fittings at the lower corners for refilling from a fire hydrant.

Pump?

No need for a pump.

I believe the photo is from Frontier Days, July 2004, in Carr Colorado. Hot Water …. who may be in the cab?

Engineer, Fireman and Pilot Engineer or Pilot Conductor. Possibly a "guest".

Thanks

I just do not understand why it is that the folks who do not care to see the Big Boy run grump about the rest of us, or the UP, who are excited to see this locomotive operate, whether helped by a diesel or not. If you would rather be somewhere else, be there and enjoy that. Let us enjoy what would thrill us in peace but I'm sure not in quiet.

Ray

I just don't see how the feelings and opinions of those who disagree affects the others.  Will Rich's comments, opinions, and or feelings about the BB somehow stop you from seeing it, getting excited about, etc?  Also, you can proceed past reading his or other's posts which you find objectionable.  There are people on this board I do just that with.  It's not complicated, I see their screen name, I keep scrolling.  Life goes on and the world fails to explode.

For what it's worth, I don't and have not always agreed with Rich, HW, and others, but it surely doesn't make me have a negative opinion of them.  I even find I disagree with myself sometimes.....

Rayin"S" posted:

I just do not understand why it is that the folks who do not care to see the Big Boy run grump about the rest of us, or the UP, who are excited to see this locomotive operate, whether helped by a diesel or not. If you would rather be somewhere else, be there and enjoy that. Let us enjoy what would thrill us in peace but I'm sure not in quiet.

Ray

TexasSP posted:

I just don't see how the feelings and opinions of those who disagree affects the others.  Will Rich's comments, opinions, and or feelings about the BB somehow stop you from seeing it, getting excited about, etc?  Also, you can proceed past reading his or other's posts which you find objectionable.  There are people on this board I do just that with.  It's not complicated, I see their screen name, I keep scrolling.  Life goes on and the world fails to explode.

For what it's worth, I don't and have not always agreed with Rich, HW, and others, but it surely doesn't make me have a negative opinion of them.  I even find I disagree with myself sometimes.....

Remember how geared-up people used to get here while UP 844 was being worked on? Holy cow! 

Someone would post a progress report on 844, Rich would usually start things off with his very clever "Kool-Aid" insult, and from there it turned into a food fight. lol. Got kinda nasty at times. Even a couple of folks from other websites, that don't normally post here, would join in on the Union Pacific steam program bashing.

I'm glad that's pretty much over. Steam locomotives are cool. American history. I wish more of them would/could run. Thanks to UP for doing this.

TexasSP posted:

….  I even find I disagree with myself sometimes.....

..... Sometimes I give myself the creeps ...

One thing that I see Rich's viewpoint on, is when 844 was doing it's first runs, it had a diesel coupled to it, which really seemed to be anticlimactic and a little misleading.  IMO, I would rather have seen her moving completely on her own, without a diesel helper (especially since she had no consist to pull at that point!)

Hopefully with 4014, we'll see her run for a bit without assistance.

Eddie Marra posted:

One thing that I see Rich's viewpoint on, is when 844 was doing it's first runs, it had a diesel coupled to it, which really seemed to be anticlimactic and a little misleading.  IMO, I would rather have seen her moving completely on her own, without a diesel helper (especially since she had no consist to pull at that point!)

Hopefully with 4014, we'll see her run for a bit without assistance.

Isn't this often done with the diesel in dynamic braking mode in order to simulate a load for the steam loco?

---PCJ

RailRide posted:

Eddie Marra posted:

One thing that I see Rich's viewpoint on, is when 844 was doing it's first runs, it had a diesel coupled to it, which really seemed to be anticlimactic and a little misleading.  IMO, I would rather have seen her moving completely on her own, without a diesel helper (especially since she had no consist to pull at that point!)

Hopefully with 4014, we'll see her run for a bit without assistance.

Isn't this often done with the diesel in dynamic braking mode in order to simulate a load for the steam loco?

---PCJ

Generally only within the Cheyenne Terminal (Yard Limits), and thus not occupying a main line.

Eddie Marra posted:

jethat posted:

Pingman posted:

R. Hales posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Then my suggestion is for those people to stay home, so there is more room for the rest of us who appreciate seeing an engineering landmark that we never dreamed would return, rolling past under her own power. 

No problem, Kelly. You can have my spot.  

If/when this thing ever runs, I’ll be somewhere else doing something interesting.

I won't be going either but not because this planned event is not interesting.  You imply the restoration and likely operation of one of the biggest, most powerful, and successful steam locomotives in U.S history is not interesting? Really?

I remember when I use to think you were a "train guy."

Exactly.

The Big boy was not the biggest nor was it the most powerful or the most successful. I think its cool they restore one. I dont like the fact that the restoration comes at the expense of other equipment in the historic UP steam shop. including 3985 witch IS actually the most successful (based on number built) Articulated design of the steam age.

I thought the Big Boy was the largest ever built?

There doesn't seem to be any disagreement that the Big Boy was the heaviest reciprocating locomotive ever built, based on total weight of engine and tender. 

There have been claims made in books that a certain C&O locomotive was heavier (locomotive-only weight), but those claims are based on the 1941 weighing of one incomplete locomotive, combined with weight estimates for the missing parts.  Four years later, when that same locomotive and one other were weighed (complete and in full working order), neither one was heavier than the 1944 order of UP 4-8-8-4's. 

Suffice it to be said that the official specification table published by the C&O railroad lists the locomotive weight of this type at 771,300 lbs.  The equivalent official specification published by the UP lists the locomotive weight for the 1944 series 4884-2 at 772,250 lbs.

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Eddie Marra posted:

One thing that I see Rich's viewpoint on, is when 844 was doing it's first runs, it had a diesel coupled to it, which really seemed to be anticlimactic and a little misleading.  IMO, I would rather have seen her moving completely on her own, without a diesel helper (especially since she had no consist to pull at that point!)

Hopefully with 4014, we'll see her run for a bit without assistance.

Diesels behind 844(4) is nothing new:

Rusty

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

I think some of you are under the impression that the locomotive’s brakes are used to slow and stop a train. In the case of a diesel with dynamic brakes, this is true. However, on a steam locomotive, the locomotive’s brakes are NEVER used when braking a train. When a steam locomotive is powering the train, the brakes on the cars are used to slow and stop a train.

The locomotive brake (the Independent Brake) on a steam locomotive is not used when moving because of the heat generated between the brake shoes and the tires. If the tires are heated too much, they could expand enough to get loose and come off. That’s obviously a bad situation!

Adding a second steam locomotive to a train adds nothing in terms of available braking power.

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The diesels aren't necessarily for assistance. Out here, they're very handy for dynamic braking going through the Cajon pass. Also, when 3751 makes a run, the diesels are handy for HEP for the passenger cars. UP handles that aspect with a generator car.

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now a Y6 would be someting to see.

Travel to Roanoke, Va and view the Y6a #2156.

Operating, not just preserved.

AGHRMatt posted:

The diesels aren't necessarily for assistance. Out here, they're very handy for dynamic braking going through the Cajon pass. Also, when 3751 makes a run, the diesels are handy for HEP for the passenger cars.

Which diesels? Non of the BNSF diesel are equipped for HEP. Amtrak diesel do also supply HEP.

UP handles that aspect with a generator car.

Correct, but since 2011 the steam crew have been using more and more diesel "help", and NOT just for dynamic brake.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

I think some of you are under the impression that the locomotive’s brakes are used to slow and stop a train. In the case of a diesel with dynamic brakes, this is true. However, on a steam locomotive, the locomotive’s brakes are NEVER used when braking a train. When a steam locomotive is powering the train, the brakes on the cars are used to slow and stop a train.

The locomotive brake (the Independent Brake) on a steam locomotive is not used when moving because of the heat generated between the brake shoes and the tires. If the tires are heated too much, they could expand enough to get loose and come off. That’s obviously a bad situation!

Adding a second steam locomotive to a train adds nothing in terms of available braking power.

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

The diesels aren't necessarily for assistance. Out here, they're very handy for dynamic braking going through the Cajon pass. Also, when 3751 makes a run, the diesels are handy for HEP for the passenger cars.

Which diesels? Non of the BNSF diesel are equipped for HEP. Amtrak diesel do also supply HEP.

UP handles that aspect with a generator car.

Correct, but since 2011 the steam crew have been using more and more diesel "help", and NOT just for dynamic brake.

 

Could you elaborate more on "... and NOT just for dynamic brake."? What I don't get is how did the bigboy's stop long trains without dynamic braking but cannot stop 5 - 10 passenger cars? 

You are losing sight of the fact that more than 70 than 70 years ago, all they had were train air brakes. Thus, all trains, both freight and passenger used nothing but the brake shoes, which were cast iron at the time, to slow and stop trains. In the modern era with steam specials/excursions the use of a diesel helper in dynamic braking on long down grades, is highly beneficial, plus saves the disc brake pads on the passenger cars.  With that diesel "helper" MU'ed with the steam locomotive, it also can be used in power to stretch water & fuel usage on the steam locomotive. Maybe the steam locomotive is very capable of "pulling the train up the grade all by herself", but at reduced speed, to what point? Why beat the crap out of the poor steam locomotive for absolutely NO REASON, when just a bit of "help" from the diesel will maintain a higher speed and conserve fuel & water on the steam locomotive.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Hot Water posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Could you elaborate more on "... and NOT just for dynamic brake."? What I don't get is how did the bigboy's stop long trains without dynamic braking but cannot stop 5 - 10 passenger cars? 

You are losing sight of the fact that more than 70 than 70 years ago, all they had were train air brakes. Thus, all trains, both freight and passenger used nothing but the brake shoes, which were cast iron at the time, to slow and stop trains. In the modern era with steam specials/excursions the use of a diesel helper in dynamic braking on long down grades, is highly beneficial, plus saves the disc brake pads on the passenger cars.  With that diesel "helper" MU'ed with the steam locomotive, it also can be used in power to stretch water & fuel usage on the steam locomotive. Maybe the steam locomotive is very capable of "pulling the train up the grade all by herself", but at reduced speed, to what point? Why beat the crap out of the poor steam locomotive for absolutely NO REASON, when just a bit of "help" from the diesel will maintain a higher speed and conserve fuel & water on the steam locomotive.

Thank you for the explanation.

So to summarize it seems like the actual steam engine is capable of doing all the work, but UP would rather preserve the life of the engine, get dynamic breaking, and reduce fuel usage by using a modern diesel locomotive to do some of the work.

Depending on the territory that will be operated over, essentially, YES. If there are no seriously long "mountain grades", the the steam locomotive should be able to handle most of the passenger train assignments unassisted. Such was done previous to 2010 with either 844 or 3985, when traveling east or south to such locations as, Chicago, Kansas City, St Louis, Houston, etc..

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

I think some of you are under the impression that the locomotive’s brakes are used to slow and stop a train. In the case of a diesel with dynamic brakes, this is true. However, on a steam locomotive, the locomotive’s brakes are NEVER used when braking a train. When a steam locomotive is powering the train, the brakes on the cars are used to slow and stop a train.

The locomotive brake (the Independent Brake) on a steam locomotive is not used when moving because of the heat generated between the brake shoes and the tires. If the tires are heated too much, they could expand enough to get loose and come off. That’s obviously a bad situation!

Adding a second steam locomotive to a train adds nothing in terms of available braking power.

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.

Lack of Situational Awareness?

A letter from Ed Dickens • Feb. 4th, 2019

Hello Friends,

Thank you for the patience and understanding as we work through the many very important details involving the release of the schedule. As we plan the operations for this monumental year, we continue to evaluate all network impacts, such as track, bridge, yard and other crucial maintenance projects, to ensure we do not have any conflicts we can’t easily manage with a 605-ton Big Boy.

With this massive network, there is always work occurring somewhere on the system. In many cases there are large system gangs roving about, doing work like replacing ties, rail, undercutting, crossing panels, bridge approach work, ballast... maintaining a rail network for this size is a monumental task. You name a type of maintenance, it is happening at any given time on the Union Pacific.

Source: Union Pacific Steam Club

Gary: Rail-fan

Hot Water posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

The diesels aren't necessarily for assistance. Out here, they're very handy for dynamic braking going through the Cajon pass. Also, when 3751 makes a run, the diesels are handy for HEP for the passenger cars.

Which diesels? Non of the BNSF diesel are equipped for HEP. Amtrak diesel do also supply HEP.

UP handles that aspect with a generator car.

Correct, but since 2011 the steam crew have been using more and more diesel "help", and NOT just for dynamic brake.

 

They use Amtrak or Metrolink (So. Cal. Local runs). 3751 "sleeps" at the old Santa Fe roundhouse site and is off-line right now (boiler inspection, I believe). The tender is detached right now.

This just in - the 4014 has passed her hydro test today! Next steps will be continued reassembly and STEAM TESTING! It won't be long now...

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Are there any major modifications made to #4014?

Besides the oil conversion, I don't think so.

TrainMan1225 posted:

This just in - the 4014 has passed her hydro test today! Next steps will be continued reassembly and STEAM TESTING! It won't be long now...

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

Hot Water posted:

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

The Steam Club email just said that it had passed the hydro test, and that the next steps were to reassemble and steam test the engine...so maybe it's the final hydro. But I'm not a part of their team, I'm just a foamer from Ohio.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Are you sure that 4014 actually passed its FRA hydro test? This may just be the preliminary test, prior to inviting the FRA inspector/inspectors in to witness, and APPROVE, the final hydro test, i.e. the one that counts.

The Steam Club email just said that it had passed the hydro test, and that the next steps were to reassemble and steam test the engine...so maybe it's the final hydro. But I'm not a part of their team, I'm just a foamer from Ohio.

OK, right, more confusing "information" from the "Steam Club". Most experienced steam operations conduct a "pre-hydro test" so as not to embarrass themselves in front of the FRA Inspector/Inspectors. Then, after all the little "issues" are corrected, the FRA invitation goes out, and when the FRA responds with a mutually acceptable date, the final hydro is conducted and subsequently approved by the FRA folks.  

Hot Water posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

What I've been wondering lately is why we never see any of the Heritage Diesels go out on the road??

If you are referring to the various Heritage painted diesels, the UP has, they are always "out on the road" all over the system.

If you are referring to the three executive E Units (A-B-A) and the DDA40X, those units are not conducive to hauling freight on a daily basis, plus there aren't that many folks remaining on the UP, in the shops, that know how to troubleshoot & work on them, let alone replacement specialized parts/components.

Gee, that sounds a lot like the excuse some railroads used for eliminating steam way back when!

The cab is on and moved into the yard. Short photo essay. 🚂

Source: Union Pacific Steam Club • Cheyenne, Wyoming

Gary: Rail-fan 

Wow...she’s not even completely finished yet and she already looks stunning. I can only imagine how beautiful she’ll be running.

Looks like they have been welding on the pilot which had been cracked.

Hmmm wonder if those number boards came from 3985?

Here's an image of 4014 in progress on it's return to Cheyenne.  Looks like the number boards were in place then.

That was 5 years ago!! They've been removed since then and they were crooked and warped and what not. Easy swap is all I'm saying.  I'm just saying those number boards look like they came from 3985.

Guys....the mods got alerts and we have done some editing and deleting.  Try to not be so emotional and personal in your comments...otherwise the thread will be either zapped or closed...

Side bar:

Anybody have a contact in the steam shop who can email me decent pictures of 5511, inside of the cab and back head, I can use for details reference on a TTT project I have sidelined? 

We all know that real trains, inspire our model trains. The Big Boys have always been popular.

Let’s check out what is new for 2019 from Lionel.

Source: Lionel L.C.C. • 6301 Performance Drive Southwest • Concord, NC

Gary: Rail-fan

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.

The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.

I had heard the same thing as a rumor from someone who claimed to be there, been wondering about that for a while if it was accurate.

The direct word from the person this happened to is he didn't 'forget' about the diesel helper. A relay in the diesel control stand in the cab had stuck and didn't drop out allowing to pusher to idle down. It finally disengaged a few seconds later after the train went into emergency. The control stand was thoroughly inspected and a ground fault was discovered. I believe the story, as you just don't 'forget' about 3000 HP pushing at your back. He just happened to be at the throttle when this malfunction occurred.

Kelly Anderson posted:

I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.

Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).I would be more than happy to show you copies of the original EMD Engineering "work sketch" with the late Bruce R. Meyer's name on it.

Both the Pilot Engineer and the UP Steam Crew Engineer, i.e. Ted, verified that he, Ted, simply forgot to throttle back the diesel units when trying to slow for the service stop.

Kelly Anderson posted:

Hot Water posted:

 

 I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.

Yeah I was going to say....  

Kelly Anderson posted:

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.

Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).

I didn't say that there was any issue with the MU control box.  What I was told was that the diesel locomotive itself had a malfunction. 

Still not true, just another smoke screen.

I was told that its internal computerized record recorded that the inputs from the MU control box to throttle back and so on were received, but it continued to put out tractive effort just the same. 

Again, false information, as I was informed by the UP Mechanical Dept. people that checked the computer on the MU'ed diesel unit, it verified that it responded to EXACTLY what it was told to do from the can of 844.

However, I wasn't there.  I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.

I did talk to more than one witness, however.

I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.

Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break. Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!

On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.

And there you have the sixty four thousand dollar question! Ed was NOT on the Engineer's side, but was on the Fireman's side. What got his attention was, when Ted put the brake valve in emergency. Both men had obviously overlooked that the Diesel MU Control Box was STILL dialed up to throttle #7 or #6.

Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break.

Except nothing was worn out nor broken, which was carefully verified.

Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!

On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.

The "new" and much larger "MU Box" has all sorts of color lights, to fully indicate EXACTLY what throttle position the operator is using. Internally, it is still the same electrical design.

It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.

Ray

Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks.  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo. 

Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks?  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

The brownie points stay for life, until the person eventually admits he committed an error. Not to mention all the subsequent damage to the boiler on 844, which took her out of service for about 4 YEARS! Blame for any and all "events" has always been pointed at "others" since January 2011.

My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher.  How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules. Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid. I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.

Chuck Sartor posted:

My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher.  How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules.

Yes,,,,,it certainly DOES sound "ridicules" (sic), but lots of other ridiculous events have happened since January 2011.

Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat

No, he simply reached across Teds lap and pulled the reverser gear into reverse, then cracked the throttle open. When the train went past the Steam Team Mechanical men on the ground, with the drivers locked & sliding on 844 (there was a video of this posted on the internet shortly after), they subsequently heard the diesel drop to idle.

and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid.

Well, that is simply an opinion based statement on your part. You have never actually worked with either of them. Yes, they may not be "stupid" but a number of stupid things have been done.

I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.

I believe the term is "Loss of situational awareness.". It happens.

Rayin"S" posted:

It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.

Ray

J 611 posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute.  How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks.  It's been seven years.  Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?

Let it go already.

Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo. 

Yeah, unfortunate for those of us who enjoy restoration projects and have no agenda or personal vendettas always lose out to the couple people who can't resist bloviating the same old tripe they've been posting over the years every time someone shows excitement over UP Steam.

Rayin"S" posted:

It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.

Ray, now you're just being silly!

UP steam is a very polarized subject among rail preservation and fan types.

All I know are the facts that can't be disputed (such as when a locomotive is or isn't running or when it obviously is in a condition where it can't run, such as being taken apart for whatever reason). I have no opinion as I have no actual facts.

There are clearly agendas in both directions, and I'll never know for sure who was right about any of it.

The only sad part in my opinion is that even when (and I believe it's a 'when' at this point, not an 'if') 4014 starts running, a moment that should leave each one of us in child-like amazement, there'll still be haters and lots of them. Don't forget all the people who thought that 844 was 'ruined' by the removal of the mars light on the head end...

Ed and the boys might be the ultimate source of evil in the universe as they're accused of being. I have no clue either way. I just want to see 4014 on the road in steam and hopefully someday alongside a running 3985 and 844 at the same time!

Hot, What was the point of putting the engine into reverse and cracking the throttle? What was supposed to be the desired outcome?

Would it have been a better idea to immediately bail off on the engine brake, and wait for the train to come to a stop?

Thanks, makes sense.

Kelly Anderson posted:

From what I was told, the entire short train's (seven cars IIRC) brakes were not enough to hold back the high HP diesel.  The train had been in emergency for some time and wasn't slowing down.  The fear was that the brakes were going to overheat and fade soon, and the diesel was located in an inaccessible location in the train (water cars in front, and a box car behind).

Not to mention that the current manager always ran with the "mountain cock" cut out, i.e. the driver brakes would not come on on 844, thus they never had to "bail off" the independent brakes. Reportedly, the FRA folks were NOT real pleased with THAT "plan".

What makes no sense to me is when the air was dumped and went into emergency, why didn't the diesel immediately drop the load and go back to idle? The diesel was still pushing after the train was in emergency. Even if everyone 'forgot' about the MU box was still in run, the emergency brake application would have over ridden that.  Electrical malfunction was the cause, not human error.

Chuck Sartor posted:

What makes no sense to me is when the air was dumped and went into emergency, why didn't the diesel immediately drop the load and go back to idle? The diesel was still pushing after the train was in emergency. Even if everyone 'forgot' about the MU box was still in run, the emergency brake application would have over ridden that. 

There was no PC function built into the Diesel MU Control box, as the designers made the assumption that the operator knew what the he)) he was doing. Besides, simply dropping the Generator Field button, would have unloaded the MU'ed diesel units.

Electrical malfunction was the cause, not human error.

Nope! You have no idea what you are talking about!

So the whole train would brake in emergency, the diesel would have it's brakes applied and still pushing? I know you can't control the diesels' brakes from the steamer control stand, so you are telling me there was no over-ride safety that would throttle the diesel down unless it was done manually? So they forgot about the field switch too?

Chuck Sartor posted:

So the whole train would brake in emergency, the diesel would have it's brakes applied and still pushing?

Yes, that is EXACTLY what happened! There is even video to prove it.

I know you can't control the diesels' brakes from the steamer control stand,

That is wrong, as the independent air is also MU'ed to the trailing MU'ed diesel units! Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

so you are telling me there was no over-ride safety that would throttle the diesel down unless it was done manually?

Correct! However, the NKP 765 group have since modified their EMD supplied Diesel MU Control Box with PC protection, at the request of the Norfolk Southern Mechanical Dept..

This thread has gotten way off the title of this topic......! 

Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.

Mike

mikey posted:

Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.

Mike

The only "absurdity" here is that one man's personal vendetta continues to be allowed to be posted to this day!

Mike,
I have confidence that if the UP wants to run 3985 & 844 again, they will. What you really need to worry about is the UP hierarchy being invaded by the kind of people that don't like steam.

I am sitting back waiting to see if there is enough meat on a crow for more than one person to eat. 

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

This thread has gotten way off the title of this topic......! 

Yeah guys, let’s try to get back on track. I just want to hear about the Big Boy, not some excursion from 2011.

Big Jim posted:

mikey posted:

Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.

Mike

The only "absurdity" here is that one man's personal vendetta continues to be allowed to be posted to this day!

Mike,
I have confidence that if the UP wants to run 3985 & 844 again, they will. What you really need to worry about is the UP hierarchy being invaded by the kind of people that don't like steam.

I am sitting back waiting to see if there is enough meat on a cr

ow for more than one person to eat. 

 

The Steam program has got to show a real payoff. It has got to show a relivence. UP management is no longer going to allow money to be flushed down a steam restoration toilet. Back in the Steve Lee era it did totally justify its existence as a PR tool. It stopped doing that right after the management change. It went from being a functioning viable steam program to a invisible  steam shop. That is what is going to kill the UP steam Program in the end. I personally already think its to late. The lack of presence has already killed it.

>>The fear was that the brakes were going to overheat and fade soon, and the diesel was located in an inaccessible location in the train (water cars in front, and a box car behind).<<

Put in a call to Hollywood for their best stunt man!  "Roof walk?  I don't need no stinkin' roof walk!"