mark s posted:What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.
Maybe......if it's a repeat of a repeat of a repeat..... Models of stuff that's not been done before or for a very long time have fared well - Sunset's N&W 4-8-0's come to mind. Maybe the real market is more in that direction?
I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.
mark s posted:What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.
No, what you are witnessing is peoples patience boiling over.
MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.
George diSanti posted:Actually, Simon a product has to be delivered in a reasonable time frame or a refund is required by law to be returned. Second, some people who have reserved a BB did not cancel their reserved version but was cancelled be Kohs himself without informing them. Law I believe is that a deposit has to be returned in 30 Days if the company does not produce the item ordered or is not produced in a reasonable amount of time unless that law has changed.
Second - Key is not doing the BB as he can not find a builder to do it. Maybe has to do with rumors that he did not take possession of the full run of Cab Forwards? Maybe someone has more information on what has happened. This is what I am hearing from a close friend in Texas.
George diSanti
Where the Tar Heels rule!
Hello George,
I'm not an expert, or even a novice regarding contract law, but i"m guessing that they who fill out the Kohs reservation are signing a contract for GK to deliver 1 of 5 variations of the Big Boy, henceforth to be recognized as BB by members of the forum! Sorry, had to inject a little levity!
If reasonable applies (I do not know the law, but I would think it might not apply if a delivery time is not stipulated.) and if the production period is NOT stipulated, and reasonable does apply, then WHAT is the definition of reasonable?
As for GK canceling reservations, I don't think it would be prudent to comment without having the FACTS. Seems strange that GK would be canceling reservations on an project he is trying to bring in. Did he get a chest full of gold from the Sultan of Trainsylvania, thereby eliminating the need for all his prior reservations? Did the folks who were canceled miss a mandatory payment? Hard to comment without knowing all the facts!
The only thing I know about Key is that the factory they used in Korea burned to the ground
Simon
mark s posted:What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.
The problem isn't a lack of buyers. It's a lack of builders.
As the far east continues to develop the number of people (or factories) who can build Kohs and Key quality models continues to dwindle.
mark s posted:I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.
Hello Mark,
I feel your pain. The smaller to mid-size engines have always taken a back seat to the BIG stuff....and it seems it hasn't changed.
Simon
Lots of half truths and assumptions floating around here.
All the CF's sold, including 3 extras (after 75) that were assembled from spare parts. These a last 3 models were sold as DC only as the DCC systems were consumed in the 1st 75 models. I don't attend shows so maybe the 3 someone saw were Dave's personal models.
I bought a KEY CF and a KOH's Challenger and both are remarkable models. The KEY was every bit as nice in detail and came with some nice electronic upgrades that weren't available when the Challenger was built, plus it had other items modeled that had never been done on a production model. It remains to be seen how the KOH's BB will turn out.
I haven't ordered anything from KOH's since the Challenger, as his business model just doesn't suit me..........I will never tie up that amount of money again and hope for a delivery. Losing a $300 deposit (KEY) for any reason is one thing....the possibility of losing thousands, makes no sense to me. To me, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Someone will be left holding the proverbial bag IMHO. And now, hearing deposits being forfeited without the buyers knowledge, is just incredible.
The KEY factory burned down a few years ago, if you will remember, and considering Dave's age I have no idea if he will jump in again or not. I know the KEY BB project is on hold.
BH
Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder
SANTIAGOP23 posted:Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder
Better ask Dave DeVita that question!
Simon
Santiago: Key on his last trip to Asia said he found a builder for the CZ.
Kohs stated that he would post photos the BB as the builders was unable to ship it to him for the March Chicago O Scale Show. Has anyone seen any photos?
Funny, at the March Meet I was told that it had shipped but UPS had failed to deliver it to the hotel in time.............................................
But they managed to deliver a tender.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/.../march-meet-analysis
n.
Just info, there is a legal term for "reasonable time" when a contract is entered, (the deposit makes it a contract). If all concerned got together a lawyer to represent those that have put deposits down which indicates there is a contract to deliver in a reasonable time the item contracted to delivered. A lawyer can take to court and also file for loss of interest that the clients would have received and sue for the anguish caused by the unreasonable time period. The Lawyer may be willing to take as Fee the loss of interest and anguish suit filed. Something similar was and happened in Illinois on smaller sized semi-truck. Deposits were taken, after 5 years still no product, nor even a production start finish date given. Lawyer won without ever going to court and just filing and forwarding letters addressing his representing each as a client and an agreed amount anguish settlement.
Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.
I managed, along with my trusty contemporaries, to resist the temptation of the fine selection of bourbons mentioned and hearing the great man himself pontificate at length. Vacation time is precious and I'm more of a single malt man.
n.
nw2124 posted:MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.
I'd file that under smart business as I'm pretty sure those all sold out fast, and you even got your 4. Hard to find one for sale now, too. Maybe something to learn.
nw2124 posted:Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.
Well I haven't seen any photos of the finished model and now three and a half months have elapsed since the March Meet: I think we can kohs goodbye to any hope of seeing them this year.
n.
I hate to see Kohs go by the wayside. I guess I will count on someone else to do the rest of Kohs remaining list of models. Looks like those who have put their second deposit down are now out a lot more money as there is no proof of model in all these years. So much for the 3D way of doing things faster. Have you lost any money?
Kohs keeps saying on his website that he has never failed to deliver a project. Well, there's a first time for everything. In the model manufacturing business, you can not rest on your laurels, because all that they show is that you have produced and delivered models in the past. It does not translate in any way that you will continue to do so. The one thing that he HAS failed to deliver is the truth.
George diSanti
Where the Tarheels rule!
hibar posted:Its only been a little under 5 years and really no projected delivery date and with the extended time frame I would doubt the 6k is a guaranteed final price. For most of the buyers at this level of investment 3k is not a big deal for most of us the term "non refundable should be a "red flag" like the market states " past performance is no guarantee for future investments" just saying.
Yea that would be enough for me to back away.
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