Used Train prices

It’s not just trains. It’s all collectibles.

Go price a used car since new cars aren't being made right now.  Have you been to the grocery store?

With the world production of oil and goods coming to a grinding halt during Covid it was bound to take a long time to resume production at a level Pre-Covid.

Then there was the wisdom of starting a trade war with China in addition to US carriers holding drills in the South China sea.  But hey, what does China have to do with goods Americans buy 

John

This is a guess, but with all the ships anchored off port, I'm thinking that supply of new product has dropped thus raising the prices of used products.

I am astounded about what some people are asking for used trains.  But as I often watch listings on the auction site, they are not selling at those prices and after several months get discounted. 

In the meantime, I have still been finding bargains on items I am looking for.  Like always it just takes work.  I just picked up three baggage cars (Lionel and K-line) for a M&E train and the total price not including taxes and shipping was $125.00.  No complaints from me for scale length cars in good used condition. There is one bargain out there I am sorely tempted on, but I have overspent my budget for the month.

Since we live in a market economy, a seller can ask whatever price they like for an item.  We can also chose to pay it or not.

Points in my post above aside, I feel that specifically for O Gauge trains, the semi demise of MTH played a large factor in some of these insane prices.  It would seem that the new Lionel catalogue's prices may not have spiked so dramatically if it were not for a significant reduction in the competition.

Look at what they are getting for MTH subway sets (used ones) now that no one is making them.  A year ago or so new ones were greatly discounted below list.  Now used ones are way above list.

John

@Craftech posted:

Points in my post above aside, I feel that specifically for O Gauge trains, the semi demise of MTH played a large factor in some of these insane prices.  It would seem that the new Lionel catalogue's prices may not have spiked so dramatically if it were not for a significant reduction in the competition.

Look at what they are getting for MTH subway sets (used ones) now that no one is making them.  A year ago or so new ones were greatly discounted below list.  Now used ones are way above list.

John

Being in the train industry, new pricing has little to do with MTH leaving the market.  It has everything to with increased labor costs, increased management costs, increased shipping costs, increased materials costs, and most all of less market for the products.  Brass hybrid is all about lower units. 

I would be careful to separate second hand costs from new costs.  The used MTH inflation factor is merely sentimental like postwar Lionel used to be.  Those prices will correct and when the buyers of MTH tooling start bringing new former MTH product to market.

That sounds promising Jonathan.  Thanks.

John

I think we will see a correction once the former MTH tooling comes to market via Lionel and Atlas.  Yes it will cost more than it used to, but it should bring some stability to the used market.  For the subway sets, I haven't seen who, if anyone has obtained any of that tooling so there will still be some price gouging on certain products no doubt.

I have some Atlas "Premier" special run passenger cars on order from a forum sponsor and I didn't find the pricing outrageous.  It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't ridiculous either.

I can wait, I have more than I can run now, so there's no urgency.

Fortunately for me...lol...I scooped up a bunch before the crazy hit...so I have lots of spares...but...man...I got burgled...the thief got nothing but did damage...so there's that...but still...more is better.

I'm always hunting a bargain but suddenly...there ain't none...lol.

Crazy...man...

You guys may be looking at a particular seller.  I am convinced that that seller (the one with lousy photos on a white lazy Susan platform) is taking stuff on consignment from folks who think all used trains track the 700E.  Jonathan is correct; it ain’t sellin’ at those prices.

opinion

@gibson man posted:

Am I the only one astounded by the silly pricing of used trains and accessories?

It's wasn't a year or so ago that serious bargains could be had...now that has dried up and pricing is...uh...just silly....

What's going on? Has a generation turned and now we're all waiting for the next turn...like when I turn...lol...?

Umm. Its toy train season from now until April York. You want bargains, you have to work and look out for them or wait til May -July 2022.

The secondary market is always volatile.  Used prices are set by the seller and confirmed by the buyer.  As an example concerning trains:

Last year I purchased the latest Santa Fe Super Chief with the two additional cars.  It was my first Lionel purchase ever.  Since Lionel has made everything I could ever think of using on my planned layout, I bought a stack of old catalogs, virtually every catalog from 2000 forward. )I’m only interested in command equipment an, only locomotives with flywheel motors as I came to o scale from LGB and I’m use to locomotives running smoothly at slow speeds.)

I found that a few years back Lionel had issued the same set without remote.  I also discovered that an A Dummy and B Dummy were made at the same time. Using saved searches on eBay, I found both.  I paid $119 for each on separate occasions from different sellers.  Now less than a year later someone bid an A Dummy up to $203. Now you cannot find an A Dummy or a B Dummy for less than $200.  Every one of them listed is now selling for at least $200.  I know because I still have the searches active and about every three weeks or so one or the other shows up.

As long as someone is willing to pay ridiculous prices for used merchandise then people will ask exorbitant prices and get them

As an addendum to this I must add that I don’t know if Lionel monitors the secondary market.  They should.  (I was in marketing for most of my working life and old habits die hard and I monitor everything I’m interested in with the same enthusiasm as when I was working.) Some of the items I’ve found are real opportunities for Lionel or any manufacturer.  

@Craftech posted:

Go price a used car since new cars aren't being made right now. 

John

VERY TRUE... I won't bore you with the long story, but I need to buy a truck to tow our travel trailer.  We saw a used one on the lot that was perfect but the fella would not budge on price.  But they can build me a brand new 2022 truck with all of the same options for $5K less than the used truck.  16 week lead time on the build.

After all the papers were signed, I asked the guy why didn't he just sell me the used truck for $5k less, at the price of the new one?  His reply, "I'm gonna sell that used truck at that price before the month is out, guaranteed.  So I really sold two trucks tonight".

So I'm choosy when buying used trains.  Like GRJ, I already have plenty to run now.  So I can wait for this bubble to burst later on.

Have Fun!

Ron

The prices are insane on everything. Look what ZW-C's are priced on Ebay. I'm more worried about what heating my  home is going to cost this winter. Hang folks it's gonna be one H$% of a ride.

If it’s a bad time to buy, then it must be a good time to sell.

Yeah I have some I’d like to sell but dealing with eBay and shipping stuff is such a headache it doesn’t seem worth it. I’m not retired and I have lots of other things vying for my time.

@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:

Yeah I have some I’d like to sell but dealing with eBay and shipping stuff is such a headache it doesn’t seem worth it. I’m not retired and I have lots of other things vying for my time.

So why not sell them here on the For Sale forum?  I guess packing and shipping is the same "headache", but there are no fees and the people here are nice.

You have to pick your spots. I’ve bought over 100 lightly used cars over the past year, a variety of modern Lionel, MTH Premier, Atlas and Weaver, mostly freights, mostly C8 to C10 quality, at an average price under $20/piece. And a couple Legacy diesels under $500. I had to view dozens and dozens of online auctions, but if you’re patient, deals can be found.

Prices are all over the place across all makes and scales,not just O gauge. About 18 months ago there were many Prewar and Postwar bargains,now prices on the same items are much higher. Common Standard Gauge,especially AF and Ives is in the gutter. Märklin HO prices in Europe are much higher than normal,in the US,prices are much lower.  It's normal and cyclic,always has been. Give it about ten more years and ALL model trains will be crazy cheap and plentiful.

@Ricky Tanner posted:

Give it about ten more years and ALL model trains will be crazy cheap and plentiful.

Why?

I know sometimes I overpay for something I really want and missed out on when it was released.  I guess it all comes down to how many are out in the market at the time someone is looking for a particular piece.  So yeah some of those prices are crazy!

This is happening in the sports memorabilia market and I think other collectibles markets. Most New products are not abundant on shelves and travel (especially international) is still messy. Mth uncertainty and the BTO Lionel program have also reduced store supplies of trains. Combine this with expansive monetary and fiscal policy and you have nutty prices. While I don’t buy many trains, I wish I would have bought a few things a few years ago. I have a Chessie heritage PS 2.0 sd70ace that still haunts me. It had a slightly bent hand rail and went for a tad over $200 on the auction site that starts with “e.” These prices are a thing of the past.

I have to wonder just how much of the overpriced stuff actually sells for that price. I am sure it happens once in a while but I don't think it happens that often.

I personally haven't been looking for locomotives lately since I bought a new one this year and I bought two locomotives from Harmon Yards. However, I have noticed that (on average) MTH trains prices for locomotives have gone up since the announcement. I remember when you could find the scale wheel steam engines everywhere usually for half of their MSRP. Not anymore. I am mainly a 2 rail guy so I usually don't look at the prices of 3 rail engines but my good friend is 3 rail and he has told me about the higher asking prices for used stuff.

I am currently trying to sell 6 accessories. I looked at the asking prices of other folks and priced mine less than that. I also put in my ads reasonable offers accepted. So people would know that I would go even lower. I haven't gotten a single offer for anything and I had close to 200 views on this board. So I took two of the accessories and put them on eBay. The MTH gas station and the MTH McDonald's. On the McDonald's I found a guy selling one for $200 plus $40 for shipping and it didn't have the SUV that drives up to the window. I saw a few others at $150 or $180. So I priced mine at $130 with Local or York Pick up. My McDonald's has the SUV and it is in great condition. I got 16 views and 1 watcher. Yesterday I lowered the price to $110. Didn't even get another "view". On the gas station I actually researched what they sold for on the bay. They have sold for anywhere between $40 and $120. So I priced mine at $80 figuring someone would make an offer over $55 and I would take it. I also got 16 views but no watchers. Yesterday I lowered the price to $60. Again, didn't even get another "view". Also, I tried to get a quote on shipping the gas station. I packed it up in a box and measured it and weighed it. I always get a quote based upon going from NJ to the west coast. The cost from the USPS was $86. If no one wants it at $80 then certainly no one will want it at $166! The McDonald's is even bigger than the gas station so I don't know how that guy is able to ship it for only $40. The high price of shipping (IMHO) has definitely put a damper on selling larger accessories on line.

Bottom line is I guess no one wants this stuff. My theories are #1) must be so few people left in O gauge that there is no market for these accessories or #2) the few people left in O gauge who would buy an accessory I am selling already have these accessories and don't need it. Other than that I can't really explain it. My next step is to try to sell this stuff at the METCA meet in November but I fear I will be wasting my time there.

I was just looking for this post to comment and there it was at the top of the list!

I am personally appalled at the prices on used train items.  It really makes it hard for those of us who have fixed incomes to build anything of merit.  And worse, it prevents a lot of those who have a genuine interest in the hobby from diving in.  I will say this much, I have noticed that this price gauging (slaughtering) is more prevalent in O scale/gauge than in HO and N.  I find as of late that I wish I had went the HO route instead of the O route.  As many have mentioned, the evil that is the bay is truly the worse and a certain "Z" is a close runner up, the latter being the worst for selling overpriced damaged goods.

I do feel strongly that the major manufacturers contribute to this issue.  They release items that modelers want once in a blue moon and they do not make extra of anything.  I'm certain that there are those that buy unneeded items just so they can sell at a heavy handed mark-up later.  The Atlas Maxi-IV Gunderson sets being a prime candidate.

I'm chiming in this morning only because I looked at buying Atlas Front Runners last night for my IM layout.  The prices were unbelievable and I suspect I'll do good to get more than two in the long run.

Anthony

@A. Wells posted:

I was just looking for this post to comment and there it was at the top of the list!

I am personally appalled at the prices on used train items.  It really makes it hard for those of us who have fixed incomes to build anything of merit.  And worse, it prevents a lot of those who have a genuine interest in the hobby from diving in.  I will say this much, I have noticed that this price gauging (slaughtering) is more prevalent in O scale/gauge than in HO and N.  I find as of late that I wish I had went the HO route instead of the O route.  As many have mentioned, the evil that is the bay is truly the worse and a certain "Z" is a close runner up, the latter being the worst for selling overpriced damaged goods.

I do feel strongly that the major manufacturers contribute to this issue.  They release items that modelers want once in a blue moon and they do not make extra of anything.  I'm certain that there are those that buy unneeded items just so they can sell at a heavy handed mark-up later.  The Atlas Maxi-IV Gunderson sets being a prime candidate.

I'm chiming in this morning only because I looked at buying Atlas Front Runners last night for my IM layout.  The prices were unbelievable and I suspect I'll do good to get more than two in the long run.

Anthony

Don't forget selling on eBay is not cheap anymore.  eBay takes a lot in fees, so sellers build that into the price too (although some prices I have seen are seriously way out there).  If I sell something on there, I just let it ride and 9 times out of 10 someone comes along who wants it.  It can takes months, but its all about timing and who is looking for what and when.

@Sean's Train Depot (Sean) - Do you still have that Lionel Intermodal Crain on your layout? A

@Hudson J1e posted:

I have to wonder just how much of the overpriced stuff actually sells for that price. I am sure it happens once in a while but I don't think it happens that often.

I personally haven't been looking for locomotives lately since I bought a new one this year and I bought two locomotives from Harmon Yards. However, I have noticed that (on average) MTH trains prices for locomotives have gone up since the announcement. I remember when you could find the scale wheel steam engines everywhere usually for half of their MSRP. Not anymore. I am mainly a 2 rail guy so I usually don't look at the prices of 3 rail engines but my good friend is 3 rail and he has told me about the higher asking prices for used stuff.

I am currently trying to sell 6 accessories. I looked at the asking prices of other folks and priced mine less than that. I also put in my ads reasonable offers accepted. So people would know that I would go even lower. I haven't gotten a single offer for anything and I had close to 200 views on this board. So I took two of the accessories and put them on eBay. The MTH gas station and the MTH McDonald's. On the McDonald's I found a guy selling one for $200 plus $40 for shipping and it didn't have the SUV that drives up to the window. I saw a few others at $150 or $180. So I priced mine at $130 with Local or York Pick up. My McDonald's has the SUV and it is in great condition. I got 16 views and 1 watcher. Yesterday I lowered the price to $110. Didn't even get another "view". On the gas station I actually researched what they sold for on the bay. They have sold for anywhere between $40 and $120. So I priced mine at $80 figuring someone would make an offer over $55 and I would take it. I also got 16 views but no watchers. Yesterday I lowered the price to $60. Again, didn't even get another "view". Also, I tried to get a quote on shipping the gas station. I packed it up in a box and measured it and weighed it. I always get a quote based upon going from NJ to the west coast. The cost from the USPS was $86. If no one wants it at $80 then certainly no one will want it at $166! The McDonald's is even bigger than the gas station so I don't know how that guy is able to ship it for only $40. The high price of shipping (IMHO) has definitely put a damper on selling larger accessories on line.

Bottom line is I guess no one wants this stuff. My theories are #1) must be so few people left in O gauge that there is no market for these accessories or #2) the few people left in O gauge who would buy an accessory I am selling already have these accessories and don't need it. Other than that I can't really explain it. My next step is to try to sell this stuff at the METCA meet in November but I fear I will be wasting my time there.

You are largely correct on the price of some stuff. There are engines and a few accessories with outrageous buy it now prices. However, there are no deals via auction like there used to be. Check under the sold listings, the McDonalds has sold for $200 plus $40 shipping. That building reminds me of my last dog. He went there way too often for a burger and ice cream.

FWIW I was at a local train show this past Sunday. Its one of the largest in the area. Most all tables were taken and the parking lot was near filled. Prices were pre covid with many deals to be had. I hope this bodes well for York.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

If I sell something on there, I just let it ride and 9 times out of 10 someone comes along who wants it.  It can takes months, but its all about timing and who is looking for what and when.

I've given up on complaining about the pricing.  Everything's posted at a certain price.  The posted prices have doubled or tripled in the last 18 months on many things.  Sean's hit the important point here, especially with respect to the big 'E'.  It usually takes months, often many months, to sell most things, even on more moderately priced items.  Now, on items having vastly inflated prices, it will take even longer.  By and large these folks are not experienced retailers, so they're not really focused on moving their inventory quickly.

As a result I just monitor and wait.  When someone wants to sell badly enough they'll lower their price.  Otherwise they're just using the big 'E' to display their (impressive?) collections.

Actually, while waiting there are occasionally a few reasonable prices to be found, here and there, but you have to spend the time to look through everything very carefully to find them.  Recent changes to the big 'E''s categorization of items (see several other very recent threads) have not helped this situation, however it's still possible to come out ahead.  See, for example:

   Auction Site All Scale Filter Change | PRR Steam

Patience is required.

Mike

@Norton posted:

FWIW I was at a local train show this past Sunday. Its one of the largest in the area. Most all tables were taken and the parking lot was near filled. Prices were pre covid with many deals to be had. I hope this bodes well for York.

Pete

Hopefully. The Edison show in August, some prices seemed reasonable while some others were just out there. I think that this could be due to no shows being the norm for a good while. No one buying what was being sold whatever the prices, so some individuals either decided to press the market by raising their price on items that were just to a bit over or just out there.

Some people still have big prices on eBay at least, and of course their items sit until a deal is reached. An example of this was the VL Niagara. The prices ranged from $2000 to $2900 or so, and not much bite high-end or in between. Some have taken the $2000, but for the most part $1800 has been the offer price that has been taken. One did sell lower than that, but not by much.

Most older items seem to fall into this similar price range of sitting until something is agreed upon. This example of the Lionel 28072 Hudson sitting at prices of $875-$1100 are not selling. All the ones I have watched whether they are bids or straight up sales have always say and been relisted. I can't remember if any have been make an offer or not, but guessing if they were, the seller wasn't willing to take the offer. eBay will still be the out of this world meter that we shouldn't expect train shows to fall into.

I see all this discussion on "shows".  The Fall of the year when I decided to renew my interest in model railroads was the Fall before the pandemic.  The Augusta Railroad Museum Club had their large expo scheduled for May and I was so stoked to attend.  Then the pandemic hit and it was cancelled.  The Club lost its space and now the Club appears to have dissolved.  One of the major Railroad stores I frequented also closed and the closest one with stock is fairly far away.  While it would be nice to attend this "York" thing, I have to work and then there would be the cost of a hotel room and travel otherwise.

So, in short, some of us have no choice but to depend on the evil bay and online retailers for purchases.

Anthony

@A. Wells posted:

I'm chiming in this morning only because I looked at buying Atlas Front Runners last night for my IM layout.  The prices were unbelievable and I suspect I'll do good to get more than two in the long run.

Anthony

In May I tried to sell a set of 4 Atlas front runners for my friend. He bought them in 2 rail and decided he didn't want to convert them to 3 rail. First I tried FB Marketplace. Not even a nibble. Then I went to the evil site. One and only one person had an interest in them. The guy lived on the west coast but wanted me to drive 4.5 hours round trip to deliver the cars to someone he knows on the east coast. Eventually I said I that was too much for me to do. I would have driven a 2 hour round trip to deliver the cars but not 4.5 hours. The guy (actually the jerk) literally drove me crazy by constantly asking for lower prices and then not bidding on the cars. I bent over backwards to try to accommodate him in any way I could because the cars were so hard to get rid of. Finally we came to an agreement and he paid the shipping. After all I did and tried to do for him I never even got positive feedback. Some people just expect you to do everything for them and they appreciate nothing.  After eBay got their ridiculous fees my friend got I think close to $45 per car.

@Norton posted:

FWIW I was at a local train show this past Sunday. Its one of the largest in the area. Most all tables were taken and the parking lot was near filled. Prices were pre covid with many deals to be had. I hope this bodes well for York.

Pete

Cool. That is good news. I will be at York and I hope that trend continues for York and the METCA show on November 6th. I plan to price my items at reasonable prices.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Cool. That is good news. I will be at York and I hope that trend continues for York and the METCA show on November 6th. I plan to price my items at reasonable prices.

Examples of what I thought were decent prices, K-Line 21” ESE cars at 100 bucks each, pre negotiating, Floquil bottles unused at 1 dollar including the most desired by me, Engine Black, Lionel Korean Hudsons at 500 bucks, also pre negotiation. As only the paint was on my list the rest I left for others.

Pete

I'm not anticipating a lot of purchases at York, I think people are still thinking about inflated prices.  I see stuff on eBay and even here on OGR at way more than I'd ever consider paying.  When people are asking MSRP and more for used stuff with no warranty, I can wait for a better deal!

We'll know soon enough as York will be a good barometer.  I have about a dozen items on my list ranging from the newly released Legacy Genset to some older items from engines, rolling stock and buildings/accessories.

-Greg

Too much money in peoples hands thanks to stimulus, plus way too much time spent by people at home during the Covid period drooling over things they want to buy on the internet = very high prices.       Not just on toy trains, but also in the stock market.  (Take Gamestop and Robinhood for example.)

Also, folks who love and insist upon more and more electronic gizmos and features on new trains and rolling stock seem totally willing to pay the higher and higher prices for them, with no end in sight.   "Have ya seen the new catalog yet!  Have ya seen the new catalog yet!"

"Just Say No to Gizmos!"

O Gaugers themselves are solely to blame for higher and higher O Gauge prices.

Mannyrock

@Hudson J1e posted:

In May I tried to sell a set of 4 Atlas front runners for my friend. He bought them in 2 rail and decided he didn't want to convert them to 3 rail. First I tried FB Marketplace. Not even a nibble. Then I went to the evil site. One and only one person had an interest in them. The guy lived on the west coast but wanted me to drive 4.5 hours round trip to deliver the cars to someone he knows on the east coast. Eventually I said I that was too much for me to do. I would have driven a 2 hour round trip to deliver the cars but not 4.5 hours. The guy (actually the jerk) literally drove me crazy by constantly asking for lower prices and then not bidding on the cars. I bent over backwards to try to accommodate him in any way I could because the cars were so hard to get rid of. Finally we came to an agreement and he paid the shipping. After all I did and tried to do for him I never even got positive feedback. Some people just expect you to do everything for them and they appreciate nothing.  After eBay got their ridiculous fees my friend got I think close to $45 per car.

Unbelievable!  That's not even worth the effort.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to monitor this forum or even the evil site over the summer months due to lack of any free time.  FYI: I just bought two Front Runners, both will need to be converted to 3 rail, one needs some cleaning and the other needs serious repair.

We need to be honest with ourselves.  In this hobby we all want to buy low and sell high.  Perception is everything.  The market always determines what something is worth based on what someone is willing to pay.  If they are willing to pay more than you are, then that is the free market at work. 

As I've sold items on this forum, I feel like I price them fairly.  Some get interest, some get lowball offers, and some don't get any notice at all.  Again, this is simply the market at work.  I won't sell on the auction site due to the fees and the hassle.  Kudos to those of you who can put up with it!

@A. Wells  Cool. I am happy for you that you found some at I assume was at a fair or reasonable price. I forgot to mention the cars I sold were never run.

@Mannyrock I agree with at you are saying about the gizmos in O gauge but I don't think there is one solitary reason for the higher prices. I remember many years ago when Atlas tried to offer conventional locomotives. They were soon discontinued due to lack of interest. I think the reasons for high prices are what you said about gizmos which is definitely is part of it but also not just gizmos but the more details an item has the more the cost then there is the fact of almost no competition and much less numbers of people in O gauge buying the stuff. It all adds up to high prices and I am sure there a few other factors as well.

@Hudson J1e posted:

I have to wonder just how much of the overpriced stuff actually sells for that price. I am sure it happens once in a while but I don't think it happens that often.

I am currently trying to sell 6 accessories. I looked at the asking prices of other folks and priced mine less than that. I also put in my ads reasonable offers accepted. So people would know that I would go even lower. I haven't gotten a single offer for anything and I had close to 200 views on this board. So I took two of the accessories and put them on eBay. The MTH gas station and the MTH McDonald's. On the McDonald's I found a guy selling one for $200 plus $40 for shipping and it didn't have the SUV that drives up to the window. I saw a few others at $150 or $180. So I priced mine at $130 with Local or York Pick up. My McDonald's has the SUV and it is in great condition. I got 16 views and 1 watcher. Yesterday I lowered the price to $110. Didn't even get another "view". On the gas station I actually researched what they sold for on the bay. They have sold for anywhere between $40 and $120. So I priced mine at $80 figuring someone would make an offer over $55 and I would take it. I also got 16 views but no watchers. Yesterday I lowered the price to $60. Again, didn't even get another "view". Also, I tried to get a quote on shipping the gas station. I packed it up in a box and measured it and weighed it. I always get a quote based upon going from NJ to the west coast. The cost from the USPS was $86. If no one wants it at $80 then certainly no one will want it at $166! The McDonald's is even bigger than the gas station so I don't know how that guy is able to ship it for only $40. The high price of shipping (IMHO) has definitely put a damper on selling larger accessories on line.

Bottom line is I guess no one wants this stuff. My theories are #1) must be so few people left in O gauge that there is no market for these accessories or #2) the few people left in O gauge who would buy an accessory I am selling already have these accessories and don't need it. Other than that I can't really explain it. My next step is to try to sell this stuff at the METCA meet in November but I fear I will be wasting my time there.

I don't think price is your problem, local pickup is probably what's limiting you on the big auction site that shall not be named. Another is you have to have what people are looking for. I'd get the gas station, except 1) The Camaro doesn't fit the time period I'm modeling, 2) 76 isn't a brand station I'm interested in. If it were the Sinclair one, with the 57 Chevy, it'd be sold. But that's just me. Hang in there, have patience, sooner or later someone will come along that wants it. Without shipping, you'll probably stand a better chance moving it at some local meet or posting it on a local for sale listing like facebook or craigslist.

@Mannyrock posted:

Also, folks who love and insist upon more and more electronic gizmos and features on new trains and rolling stock seem totally willing to pay the higher and higher prices for them, with no end in sight.   "Have ya seen the new catalog yet!  Have ya seen the new catalog yet!"

"Just Say No to Gizmos!"

O Gaugers themselves are solely to blame for higher and higher O Gauge prices.

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

It pains me greatly to say this, because you've added so much that is good to this forum since you've been posting, but:

1.) We need to stop confusing asking price with selling price.  Currently very, very little sells for the price that's asked.  Asking prices are indeed rising like the devil, but there's little evidence that selling pricing prices are following suit -- except in limited circumstances (people with more money than brains), and to those that are impatient.

   and

2.) Apparently there's no room in this hobby for innovation.  With that in mind it looks like about 80% of us should exit the hobby, and leave the pickings for the true hobbyists, thus restoring order to the market by helping to lower prices on "the good old stuff".  With all due respect, that's baloney.

If you don't like it don't buy it, which you're apparently doing quite well with.  Just don't blame the rest of us, those who buy gizmos, for fueling the apparently rising prices on the stuff you do buy.  We, and the gizmos, have nothing to do with it.  (By definition, being fixated on gizmos, we aren't the slightest bit interested in "the good old stuff" and so don't compete with you for it.)

M.H.M.

@Hudson J1e posted:

@A. Wells  Cool. I am happy for you that you found some at I assume was at a fair or reasonable price. I forgot to mention the cars I sold were never run.

About $50.00 each.  I'm fearing I may get them and decide they are destined for the scrap heap.

Mellow,

Thanks for your comments.

However, I offered no discussions as to "asking prices".    People here aren't primarily concerned with the asking prices at which they don't buy, but with the actual purchase prices, that they have to pay.   Selling prices, not just asking prices, are at an all time high.

People asked the question as to why prices are so high.   I gave factual reasons for it.  I'm sorry you don't like the answers.

I didn't solely blame the new gizmo items for the high prices.  Please re-read the very first reason I listed.

Moreover, I didn't tell anybody to leave the hobby.  If you like paying higher and higher prices for more and more gizmos and details, then that is great!   But then that leaves little room to complain about the high cost of anything.  (Every time a new Lionel or other catalog comes out, we see postings about how shockingly high the new prices are.  And then,  . . . people just buy.)

Do you seriously think that if folks stopped paying the higher and higher prices for the new gizmo items, and all other items for that matter, that the cost of those items wouldn't start to fall in a mere 90 days?

I just bought a new Williams 44 ton scale diesel, for $149, after refusing to pay the higher listed prices of $229 to $249 for six months.  If everybody was calmer and waited longer before knee jerk buying and paying higher prices, then all of the prices would come down, dramatically.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

"Just Say No to Gizmos!"

**** NO!  I sell gizmos for model trains, I don't want people saying no!

LOL! Not to worry John. I don't think the gizmos are going anywhere.

I probably posted on a similar topic like this a while ago, but I feel like chiming in anyway.

I personally think you guys are right on the money for the most part. At least in the last few years, thankfully I have been able to get not just reasonably priced stuff, but some darn good bargains too. But of course through my travels and my searches on the internet, there were things I definitely wanted, but they were priced like they were brand new from the factory. And it seems like model trains in general can be seen like buying cars; ones that have been out for no more than a few years may see a price drop at some point, but then ones that are decades old could see higher values due to how collectable they are. One thing that personally bothers me is when stuff from 20 years ago with PS1 and TMCC are still trying to be sold for the same or similar prices to their newer counterparts with new electronics.

I pay top dollar for something I want that is sealed. However, after buying a couple of pre 2000 locomotives, I have stopped buying used locomotives and any locomotives with non flywheel motors.

I *rarely* find a decent deal on the "Big E" auction site, and generally have only used it for things I really needed. I do sell items there just for the ease of doing so, but the fees they take are pretty steep. I'll try selling a few pieces here and see how that goes.

Much better deals can be found by regularly searching auctions on HiBid.com or Proxibid -- there's your Tip of the Day, LOL.

Lately, I have had much better luck buying straight from a dealer. The items are mostly NOS, are almost always listed below what is shown on the bay, the shipping is cheaper or free depending on where you buy from, and most of the dealers have online discount codes. It takes some effort to track down something specific but it almost always pays off.

@A. Wells posted:

About $50.00 each.  I'm fearing I may get them and decide they are destined for the scrap heap.

I saw some of the atlas front runners in 3 rail available new from one of the forum sponsors for $89.95

@Mannyrock posted:

Mellow,

Thanks for your comments.

However, I offered no discussions as to "asking prices".    People here aren't primarily concerned with the asking prices at which they don't buy, but with the actual purchase prices, that they have to pay.   Selling prices, not just asking prices, are at an all time high.

People asked the question as to why prices are so high.   I gave factual reasons for it.  I'm sorry you don't like the answers.

I didn't solely blame the new gizmo items for the high prices.  Please re-read the very first reason I listed.

Moreover, I didn't tell anybody to leave the hobby.  If you like paying higher and higher prices for more and more gizmos and details, then that is great!   But then that leaves little room to complain about the high cost of anything.  (Every time a new Lionel or other catalog comes out, we see postings about how shockingly high the new prices are.  And then,  . . . people just buy.)

Do you seriously think that if folks stopped paying the higher and higher prices for the new gizmo items, and all other items for that matter, that the cost of those items wouldn't start to fall in a mere 90 days?

I just bought a new Williams 44 ton scale diesel, for $149, after refusing to pay the higher listed prices of $229 to $249 for six months.  If everybody was calmer and waited longer before knee jerk buying and paying higher prices, then all of the prices would come down, dramatically.

Mannyrock

And I thank you for your comments as well.

Asking prices are easy to find, actual sold prices require some digging.  They're not in your face like the asking prices are.

I do find things that have sold for ridiculously high prices, but these are few.  Furthermore it's absolutely true in my mind that there's been a large influx of newbies, probably because of the pandemic, many of whom are apparently paying the asking price without blinking an eye.

"Length of time for sale" is also not easy to find.  These figures tell the real long-term story.  Many, many, many listed items have been for sale for a long, long time, with no takers.    I've been tracking select items for five years now.  In too many cases there were no takers at the lower asking prices of two or three or four years ago, and there are still no takers at the much higher ones of today.

This is why asking price is so important to understanding the current situation.  Asking prices are too high, and as a result many things are not selling, so they generate no selling price to compare with.

This is just what you would hope in order to send the correct message to sellers.

Just like the stock market a correction is in order.  I know that you can wait for it.  How about everyone else (especially the newbies)?

I stand behind my claim that it's not the gizmos that are causing the problem.  It's the newbies (and maybe a few of us long-time buyers with sudden extra income gone crazy as well, but only a few).

As things get back to normal the newbies will get distracted and stop buying.  Prices will come down, but only for those who are patient.

Mike

@Magicland posted:

I don't think price is your problem, local pickup is probably what's limiting you on the big auction site that shall not be named. Another is you have to have what people are looking for. I'd get the gas station, except 1) The Camaro doesn't fit the time period I'm modeling, 2) 76 isn't a brand station I'm interested in. If it were the Sinclair one, with the 57 Chevy, it'd be sold. But that's just me. Hang in there, have patience, sooner or later someone will come along that wants it. Without shipping, you'll probably stand a better chance moving it at some local meet or posting it on a local for sale listing like facebook or craigslist.

@Magicland I think you are right about the gas station. The Sinclair version seems to demand a high premium. It appears that the Sinclair version is very desirable but that doesn’t explain the other accessories. Shipping is out due to the high cost. Even if I lowered the price on the McDonald’s to $25 it would probably cost $100 to ship it across the country due to the size of the box. I do live in an area (2.5 hours from York) where there are a large number of O gauge enthusiasts. I guess after reading this thread I just have to hold on to this stuff until a buyer comes along. Hopefully, at some point in time someone will make me an offer on some of the items.

One more thing: occasionally good deals are out there but a very good deal usually sells very quickly. Case in point I checked the Buy/Sell forum 3 hours ago and I saw a guy selling a MTH NYC F7 or F3 B unit (unpowered) for $50 and a MTH RK SW and SW calf (looked mint) in Illinois Central for $300. The ad is gone. I can only assume both got sold or the seller changed his mind. Two very good deals. Both were newer MTH models. The F unit was from last year.

Excellent follow up points Mike!

Mannyrock

I guess I just got into this at the right time...and that time has passed.

Most of my higher-end stuff is put away for a better tomorrow...and I am going after cheap k line stuff that can be upgraded (gun runner)...and there are still some bargains at that level.

Otherwise...forget it. It's too expensive...and my cars and guitars want love too.

Interesting that I am not the only one seeing what is going on...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not anticipating a lot of purchases at York, I think people are still thinking about inflated prices.  I see stuff on eBay and even here on OGR at way more than I'd ever consider paying.  When people are asking MSRP and more for used stuff with no warranty, I can wait for a better deal!

Glad to know it just wasn't me, thinking that way!!

I agree with the OP.  Availability of new necessary goods aside, we are talking about expendable income purchases here, I've been priced out of the product market for a while now and see prices on the secondary market heading that way.  Like GRJ I have more than I need already so purchases are less frequent and lean toward smaller accessory items and necessary track items.

I came into this a year ago, and was frankly shocked at the high asking prices then, and now I am double shocked at how much they have risen in the past year.   I rarely buy NIB stuff, but even the used, VG+, lightly run quality stuff in the $180 range last year all seems to be in the $280  range now.

It would seem to me that if anyone has accumulated a large collection of quality items in the past, and put them away with a specific view to selling them at a profit, . . . now is the time.   

From this point onward, I believe that with inflation and shortages, disposable income is going to fall for the foreseeable future.  (Mine certainly has).  At the same time, the total number of people in the O gauge hobby seems to be falling. 

The price of O gauge stuff is elastic, and it will hit the top and stall at some point in the next couple of years, and begin to fall.

(I notice that a number of people going to York this week have specifically said that they are not going to buy anything, because the prices are too high.)

All investments have a maturity point, and it is amazing how many investors simply "fall in love" with their investments and hold them way too long.

Year 2032:

Mom:  "Well, it was a beautiful funeral, and your father is finally at rest."

Daughter:  "Yes, . . . but Mom, what are we going to do with those hundreds of train cars in the basement?"

Mom:  "1-800-Got-Junk"

Mannyrock

I think the proof of all this will be evident by Saturday night.  For me, I have certain pieces on my wanted list but also have a maximum amount I'm willing to spend for them.  As far as sales go, I will have a LOT of excess that I need to get rid of and I'm not overly interested in bringing it back home.

Some items that are truly rare or hard to find, I'm looking to get what I can out of them but negotiable.

Common items like VG condition rolling stock will be in the $5 to $20 range and postwar black steam engines will be under $100.

I see at shows way too many folks trying to sell common steam engines in the $150 range and they just sit on the tables forever.  Just how many 2020, 2026, 2035 engines can anyone own and how many collectors/operators already have all of those.

Of 120 items on my Lionel list (postwar & MPC) 70 are $20 and under.  Only 25 items are in the 3 digit range and that includes full boxed and unboxed sets.  I really don't think the high prices folks are seeing are real or sustainable.

My feeling is that most plain old TCA member & York table holders like me will be looking to move items, not pocket as much money as possible like back in the late 90's early 2000's.

Hope I don't get in trouble posting this.

LionelFlyer

I personally loathe buying used items. I guess it's some underlying mental disorder.  But, given the lack of availability of new items from manufacturers, I'm forced to buy used items that I want for my layout (or just want in general).  Again, this goes back to my earlier comments that one reason for outrageous used model train prices is that manufacturers only re-release many desirable items every half a century.

Anthony

Lionel Flyer,

If I were going to York, I would definitely be shopping your table!

When you get back, maybe you could group your remaining low priced rolling stock in logical groups of four, and list them for sale here

Mannyrock

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Why?

The vast majority of O gauge collectors and operators are of the "Baby Boomer" age who are now retired or near retirement age. In the next ten or so years most of us will be boarding that last train to that "big train room" in the sky. The market in ten years will be flush with used trains. Remember,over the past 40-50 years there has been a tremendous amount of product that has been bought up for collections and layouts.  The younger folks in this hobby will pay much less for used trains due to the huge supply that will be available. I'm already seeing this trend locally. I've been contacted about buying collections more in the past year than the previous forty!

I came to York wondering how things would be priced.  Although the meet hasn't started, I've been to a couple of the bandit meets - asking prices are pretty much unchanged from the last meet 2 years ago, and the one guy I bought from was very interested in negotiating.  Common items in "operator" condition do not appear to have gone up.

My theory is that the perceived run-up in prices is primarily for mint/rare items, and it is fed by people being stuck at home.  This will change as meets open up.

We'll see what tomorrow brings...

Excellent insights folks. Coming into the discussion I have a nice size selection of PW rolling stock, plasticville, and some accessories from my childhood. During the lock down I enjoyed the bay; and found things I didn’t know I needed. I also like to make purchases at my LHS; important to support. Now, on the Eve of York I have a list of need to have and those items if they  cross my path. My goal at York is to enjoy the experience because I surely did miss the experience last year.

@Hudson J1e posted:

One more thing: occasionally good deals are out there but a very good deal usually sells very quickly. Case in point I checked the Buy/Sell forum 3 hours ago and I saw a guy selling a MTH NYC F7 or F3 B unit (unpowered) for $50 and a MTH RK SW and SW calf (looked mint) in Illinois Central for $300. The ad is gone. I can only assume both got sold or the seller changed his mind. Two very good deals. Both were newer MTH models. The F unit was from last year.

That ad is not gone (shameless plug)

@MikeH posted:

That ad is not gone (shameless plug)

Mike that is so strange. I looked all over and I couldn't find it but yes, you are right it is there. I guess I was looking in the wrong spot. Sorry about that. I sent you an email on it.

This morning a bunch of us were discussing prices and I brought up this thread. We are all hoping that prices will be where they ought to be and not out of this world like some items on eBay. We were discussing the changes on eBay that are effecting prices there to be higher in order for people to at least make what they should on an item in some cases(because some are again, overpriced by a lot). One such instance was a PRR Mountain(not sure which model from Lionel) being priced nearly $2K, nearly double of what it was new. The item sold for that price though which is ridiculous even if you are factoring in the costs for the changes on eBay and Paypal too boot.

Well, whatever comes here is to hoping that this York will be great for everyone, and prices hopefully will be where they should be. I know that in 2018 I think it was, there was someone trying to win the lottery with their sealed set from I think from the mid 1950's, which was I think in or around $20K. I'd have to ask Peter, AKA Putnam Division as he was the one that told Ed Boyle and I before the OGR meeting.

I find a lot of new items on eBay. When I do I always look for a "Make Offer". If I see one, I'll do some research (Greenberg's if Lionel) or go to the Train City website that has a price guide for what they've sold. And sometimes I can find the MSRP on Grahams website (they have a section for Archived items). Then I'll make an offer. Many times I've gotten the items for less than their asking price (including shipping to me).

Paul,  I have contacted the seller on items with Buy It Now listing and offered what I thought was a fair price.  It never hurts to ask, doesn't cost a penny and often has resulted in a sale at a fair price.  Whether at the auction Internet site, OGR For Sale or a train show or swap meet, you won't know until you ask. John

@rattler21 posted:

Paul,  I have contacted the seller on items with Buy It Now listing and offered what I thought was a fair price.  It never hurts to ask, doesn't cost a penny and often has resulted in a sale at a fair price.  Whether at the auction Internet site, OGR For Sale or a train show or swap meet, you won't know until you ask. John

Yup; you never know until you ask. Typically I find most sellers will not take your first offer, but I just keep trying. Sometimes I decide not to buy at the sellers offered price. And then later I sometimes get an offer from that same seller for less than what they previously offered me.

I just returned home from attending the first day at the York Train Show. I found the prices for PW to be reasonable. IMHO there may be a down turn in prices because people, on both sides of the table, will be returning to such venues. This was the first TCA York exhibition in two years! During the interim I made more purchases on the bay than before. However, in addition to my LHS, I’ll wait on a meet.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

I just returned home from attending the first day at the York Train Show. I found the prices for PW to be reasonable. IMHO there may be a down turn in prices because people, on both sides of the table, will be returning to such venues. This was the first TCA York exhibition in two years! During the interim I made more purchases on the bay than before. However, in addition to my LHS, I’ll wait on a meet.

I agree.  Prices especially in the dealer halls were under control.  Some of the other vender halls thought they had gold and stuff was marked high, but in general I thought prices were OK.  I thought Trainz has a very good selection with very good prices.

I saw MTH Premier Diesel PS1 engines for $150-$175 and PS2 engines for $300-$350.  Most anything PS3 ranged from $400-$500.  There were several times I had to talk myself out of another diesel and focus on getting the stuff I came for.

I had fun and really enjoyed seeing all of the OGR forum members.

Ron

eBay is a pain. People tag some ridiculous price on things and wait. If it doesn’t sell eBay lists It again for free . All this means is they can throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. If it doesn’t stick eBay will throw it at the wall again.  In addition seems reasonable prices are accompanied by some insane amount of shipping. $5.00 dollar caboose with $75.00 shipping. I still keep prowling eBay for engines and stuff that needs a friend to repair them, but I am a lot more cautious now. Good deals are still available among the hucksters .

Good observation Ron. I also stayed focused on the items I needed. Saw some nicetahaves but there will be future opportunities.

Supply vs. demand.  Pen in demand for 1-2 years and watch what happens!  I've been lurking on eBay and the OGR FSOT forum page looking for an opportunity to add switchers to my roundhouse-to-be.  Prices haven't budged over a year, with one particular 20-year-old steam switcher still offered at the same price as a year ago.  Asking prices were way up for everything last spring.  But sell prices not so much - got a dockominium slip for my sailboat at 25% under ask, this month, and not out of line with prices a year ago.  Fortunately, I purchased my full-scale mainline locos when they cost 2/3 of what's asked today.  And the switchers will eventually settle into a more reasonable price range.

@Ron045 posted:

I agree.  Prices especially in the dealer halls were under control.  Some of the other vender halls thought they had gold and stuff was marked high, but in general I thought prices were OK.  I thought Trainz has a very good selection with very good prices.

I saw MTH Premier Diesel PS1 engines for $150-$175 and PS2 engines for $300-$350.  Most anything PS3 ranged from $400-$500.  There were several times I had to talk myself out of another diesel and focus on getting the stuff I came for.

I had fun and really enjoyed seeing all of the OGR forum members.

Ron

And, of course, the PS2 engine I'm looking at is over $400.  I keep hoping it will drift downward.

I don't get upset over what someone wants to charge for an item.  If it's too much for me then I move on.  There are items I've seen both on ebay and at York that I desired, but passed on what the seller was asking.

There are 3 high-priced items that I have been searching now for a while and 2 of those items I am willing to pay quite a bit for.  I was hoping to find one or all at York, but no luck.  Regardless, the thrill of the chase is exciting!

@Mannyrock posted:

I came into this a year ago, and was frankly shocked at the high asking prices then, and now I am double shocked at how much they have risen in the past year.   I rarely buy NIB stuff, but even the used, VG+, lightly run quality stuff in the $180 range last year all seems to be in the $280  range now.

It would seem to me that if anyone has accumulated a large collection of quality items in the past, and put them away with a specific view to selling them at a profit, . . . now is the time.   

From this point onward, I believe that with inflation and shortages, disposable income is going to fall for the foreseeable future.  (Mine certainly has).  At the same time, the total number of people in the O gauge hobby seems to be falling.

The price of O gauge stuff is elastic, and it will hit the top and stall at some point in the next couple of years, and begin to fall.

(I notice that a number of people going to York this week have specifically said that they are not going to buy anything, because the prices are too high.)

All investments have a maturity point, and it is amazing how many investors simply "fall in love" with their investments and hold them way too long.

Year 2032:

Mom:  "Well, it was a beautiful funeral, and your father is finally at rest."

Daughter:  "Yes, . . . but Mom, what are we going to do with those hundreds of train cars in the basement?"

Mom:  "1-800-Got-Junk"

Mannyrock

Very well said.

Mike

I just watched an auction where a USED Lionel #990 Legacy Command Set base sold for $437 (including buyers' premium, but before tax and shipping). The lot listing didn't even have a picture of the unit to allow buyer to assess condition.  The list price for a NEW one is $399 and I've seen them at dealers for around $325-330.  So . . . umm . . . yeah, I guess there is some craziness in the market. LOL. 

Yes, I constantly tell people if you do not know what it costs ,don’t buy it on eBay .

Typical supply and demand driven pricing.  As demand goes up and the supply shrinks a bit, prices rise accordingly.  With more people staying home, less travel=more money to spend on hobbies.  I also think many people rediscovered trains as a hobby during the lockdown and this has increased demand for all trains, not just 3 rail or vintage.   Many things I could easily find at a "song and dance" price pre Covid, are now much harder to find and what is available is much more expensive than it was.  But we are nowhere near the prices that, say Postwar Lionel, was fetching in the mid to late 1990's.  Still plenty of deals and attic fresh trains out there despite all the "doom and gloom" some preach.   Happy hunting!     AD

There was plenty of high priced postwar at York which looked to still be there on Saturday afternoon.  For me, I sold three 2020's with tenders (two in sets), a 2046 w/tender for under $100 each.  Also sold a fair amount of postwar and MPC cars and accessories cheaply.  Note the word cheaply because that is what it seemed to take in order to move the items, along with being willing to negotiate.

I was surprised that it was not crowded at all on Saturday. I was there on Thursday but it wasn’t as robust as in the past. It was also curious that there weren’t any shuttle buses. Last time,    10-19, there were two vehicles. What was the crowd like on Friday?

this is not good for me as someone on a very tight budget who depends heavily on the used market

plus i'm looking for stuff that is specifically Norfolk and Western and i also need more fastrack so i'm in a difficult spot right now

@paigetrain posted:

this is not good for me as someone on a very tight budget who depends heavily on the used market

plus i'm looking for stuff that is specifically Norfolk and Western and i also need more fastrack so i'm in a difficult spot right now

You should be glad you don't need more Atlas O track!  I think platinum is cheaper by the ounce that an O-72 Switch.

I have Fastrack for sale but no one wants it except a guy from California. Unfortunately, it was too expensive to ship the 30” straights out there.

@paigetrain posted:

this is not good for me as someone on a very tight budget who depends heavily on the used market

plus i'm looking for stuff that is specifically Norfolk and Western and i also need more fastrack so i'm in a difficult spot right now

Tight budgets come in to play for everyone. The market for anything changes so much that you will always see some things selling way out of what is considered outlandish. Thing is there are some folks who have the right price. The big problem is that usually these disappear even before you know they were there. The other part of it, and this has been discussed on here as well as people talking to me that some who buy those reasonably priced items turn around and raise the prices through the roof.

The good thing is that there are always other options, just need to know who to talk to and accept some things as they are. I had heard about the K-Line NYC J1 Hudson for example, and how great it looks. Since the release of Lionel's recent Hudson's, the market for most Hudson's has risen because of it. Yeah, some prices are reasonable, but most are really pushing it.

What wound up happening to me was I had talked to the one seller on the Bay, but he chose to stick to his big price tag of $600+. After talking to Pat and Pete, they steered me to the TCA buy/sell site. There I found one for just a little over $400. I had to pay the shipping, and that was the only reason it was just over $400. Meanwhile the Bay seller is still waiting for someone to pick up his $600+ engine that many are watching, but no one is biting on.

@paigetrain posted:

this is not good for me as someone on a very tight budget who depends heavily on the used market

plus i'm looking for stuff that is specifically Norfolk and Western and i also need more fastrack so i'm in a difficult spot right now

Given the current situation I think York recovered very well.  Nobody expected it to be bigger than ever with the COVID cloud still hanging over our heads.

At my local flea market used train shop, things are generally priced very reasonably.

But, last week I saw that they had a basket full of used Fast Track, straights and curves, and every piece was marked $5.00.

Just me, but I thought that was pretty high, especially since the well-used Lionel tube track is often priced at eight pieces for $10.  (They do have rust on them though.).

Mannyrock

Being a traditionalist, I picked up some tubular track, various lengths,  at York for great prices. They cleaned up nicely and only three of the longer lengths have been designated for a siding/yard.