Visibility of Engineers

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

Well, I know this subject was discussed here recently, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, remember that "back in the day", there was also a Fireman on the left side, so that no matter whether it was a lefthand curve or a righthand curve, there was always a cab crew member "watching forward", on that side. Additionally, with say a steam locomotive or a GG1, anything that could not be seen within about 50 feet in front of the locomotive, simply got run over anyway.

Western Maryland 734, cab ride,  I was behind the fireman.  

It rained, the trip back to Cumberland. 

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Interesting to note that, even though there was a very good mechanical stoker, the rear two corners of the fire box had to be hand shoveled. Wonderful ride. Don't wear your best clothes.    Relatively comfortable ride, colder weather even being close to the fire box would have been a bit uncomfortable. 

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Absolutely correct, even on modern locomotives with "all weather cabs", such as UP 844 & 3985, or SP 4449. 

Rusty

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Is it hard to see in front of a steam engine? Yeah, on curves. "Modest?" I wouldn't say that. What, exactly, is your question?

As for you wondering what the correct term is for what a locomotive engineer does, you've been on this forum long enough to know that, unless you're in England, one does not "drive" a steam locomotive. "Piloting?" Seriously?

"Operate" is acceptable, but generally, one "runs" a steam locomotive.

This is a photo taken this past Saturday on the Everett RR's steam excursion to Martinsburg Jct.,PA.
Look how far the engineer is leaning out to watch the engine back onto the sharp curve of the wye track.

This day was 55 degrees with a steady breeze, imagine doing it in sub-zero cold or driving rain.

smd4 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Is it hard to see in front of a steam engine? Yeah, on curves. "Modest?" I wouldn't say that. What, exactly, is your question?

As for you wondering what the correct term is for what a locomotive engineer does, you've been on this forum long enough to know that, unless you're in England, one does not "drive" a steam locomotive. "Piloting?" Seriously?

"Operate" is acceptable, but generally, one "runs" a steam locomotive.

Maybe I've been on G Scale Central too long.....LOL

Rusty Traque posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Rusty

During my working career, as a carpenter, I've had those days when I said to myself, WTF and I doing here.....LOL

I asked that question recently.  It still seems hairy.  For a shovel fed engine, wouldn’t the fireman be busy with that job, without eyes on the track?

I watched a show on tv recently about snowplows.  A guy was in the cab of the snow plow ahead of a CN F7 that was pushing it, of course with some force to get through the drifts.  Now that takes some stones.  

As far as working outside, I’ll never forget one Christmas Eve.  I was working as a carpenter and we had just topped off a townhouse building and I had to hang over the corner of the 8/12 pitch roof to cut off the last tail of subfascia with a 7 1/4” skilsaw to finish the job.  The snow was just starting to come down, huge flakes ever so gently, the sun was just visible behind the clouds and it was quiet as a mouse house except for the generator humming along.  I had 80’ of roof all to myself. With a view.  So I sat down on the ridge and contemplated life.  I’ll never forget that peaceful feeling and sense of accomplishment...

No matter how hard I try!

Cheers.

Like Jack and others, much more qualified than me, have stated, the fireman and engineer work as a team to call out signals and/or something fouling the track, etc. Typically you'll notice that the fireman will make an effort to look out in front of the locomotive from his seat or gangway while the locomotive approaches and starts to enter a grade crossing. This is obviously done in case a vehicle from the left side of the locomotive enters the crossing or tracks, but is still out of the line of sight of the engineer. 

Having taken various cab rides on smaller to medium sized steam locomotives, the line of sight is an issue, but just from a "layman's" standpoint you can still see plenty far ahead on your side of the locomotive without having to lean out very far. Now if we are talking about a C&O H9 or a UP 4000 or even the N&W Class A or Y that's a different story. Obviously, curves are a different animal too and that's where the communication between the fireman and engineer comes into play. 

I'm curious, Kelly, why is it so hard to see forward from an SW8 cab?

William 1 posted:

I asked that question recently.  It still seems hairy.  For a shovel fed engine, wouldn’t the fireman be busy with that job, without eyes on the track?

Cheers.

The fireman doesn't have to shovel all the time, at least not a good one.  While hand-bombing IRM's Frisco 1630 I had plenty of time to observe the track ahead.

Rusty

"The fireman doesn't have to shovel all the time, at least not a good one. "

As I recall, a VP of the DL&W testified against legislation requiring mechanical stokers, saying that the fireman could rest going downhill.

I have read enough real stories to realize that depending on the engineer, hand firing could be real work.  Kind of like shoveling ear corn into the sheller but a lot longer. 

wb47 posted:

I have read enough real stories to realize that depending on the engineer, hand firing could be real work.  Kind of like shoveling ear corn into the sheller but a lot longer. 

Absolutely yes, the Engineer can, and will, teach a new Fireman a real lesson. When I was learning to fire on the Buffalo Creek & Gauley RR in 1962/1963, I really thought I was getting better and better. Finally, the day came when I was to "fire on my own" with the regular Fireman simply riding the seat-box. I was doing pretty well, just as I was taught, firing the "horseshoe pattern", then resting awhile, then shoveling again. After the stop for water at Swandale, the ascending grade got steeper, for the final 8/9 miles up to the coal mile town of Widen, West Virginia. The further we went the more I had to shovel, eventually shoveling continuously, without a rest.

The next day, Hosteler Bob Curthers asked me how everything went. I told him everything. I smiled, and said, "How did the engine sound?", and I responded that she really sounded great, nice and loud! Bob smiled again and said, "No, I mean REALLY, how did the engine SOUND?".  I said that I didn't understand what he meant. Bob then went on to explain valve gear cut-off, and how the Engine could work a Fireman to death by keeping the power reverse gear way too far in the corner, thus wasting water and fuel. Bob then handed me a small piece of welders soap stone, and explained that when the big 2-8-0 sounds nice and sharp, and I'm able to follow the "normal" firing pattern, with rests, then note where the Engineer has the reverse gear set. Reach over his lap, and make THAT SPOT with your piece of soap stone.

Sure enough, after the water stop, I began to shovel harder and harder, and harder! I then remembered that I had used the soap stone to make the power reverse quadrant, when the exhaust sounded nice and sharp, and I was firing easy. Well I'll be darned! Engineer Jobe Young had the power reverse gear WAY FORWARD of my mark!!!!    I reached over, tapped Mr. Young on the shoulder, and pointed to my mark on the reverse quadrant. He smiled broadly, took his pipe out of his mouth and said, ""You're learning kid!", and promptly hooked her up where she was supposed to be. I've been learning about steam locomotive operations ever since.

Yeah buddy.  That’s what I’m talkin about.  Real stories.  Very cool.

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer...