Vision Legacy ES44 Diesel- starting speed step problem- final diagnosed as loose motor drive impeller

I recently had a challenge with one of my diecast ES44ACs.  It would initially run but eventually stall after operation.  The throttle and sounds were saying "go" but the wheels we not turning.  While not the same problem description as yours quite a few of this model suffer slippage between the motor shaft and the output impeller.  This link below to another OGR thread spells it out quite well.  I suspect you have slippage on one of your motors and that is why it is running slower than expected.  Your motor is spinning fine but it's not all making it to the wheels.  Seems like just a drop of  Loctite (Blue for metal/plastic/other) is all you might need to be fully back in business.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/es44-diesel-repair

I had lubed the trucks wheel gears and the lion gears, but did not think to check for loose impellers. I can see the rear motor is trying to start at speed step 1.  I can't see front motor but I can hear something slipping. How hard is it to remove the diecast shell? Will Loctite Super Glue Gel work instead of the 380?

The shell is not too difficult to remove.  Keep track of where the short screws come out of since they are not all the same length.  However, this job can be completed without shell removal.  The trucks come off with a simple 90 degree counter-clockwise rotation.  You could try the Lotite Super Glue Gel and if it slips then go after the stronger Loctite 380. 

I seriously doubt this is a truck issue from the description of the symptoms.  The Odyssey on should start moving on the first speed step, and the control electronics just keeps increasing the power to the motor until it does.  If it runs fine with cruise off, there's something wrong with the cruise IMO.

Is this a Cab-2? Could it be the brake slider is on?

The brake slide will prevent speeds past it's setting for any throttle setting, but it wouldn't cause the locomotive not to be able to move until throttle setting 50-60.

Was the stall setting set inadvertently?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The brake slide will prevent speeds past it's setting for any throttle setting, but it wouldn't cause the locomotive not to be able to move until throttle setting 50-60.

Thanks. I'm still attempting to figure how if the gear is slipping its running faster than it should be John. 

Greenline posted:

"Running speed at 100 step is slower than it should be. With odyssey turned off the engine will start to move at speed step 15 and running speed at 100 step appears faster than it should be."  I did reset to factory settings with no change. It seems to perform OK in a lash-up with another engine, with best performance as trailing engine with odyssey off. With engines uncoupled it runs slower with odyssey on and faster with odyssey off.

Not an expert but that may be because with Odyssey on it is holding some voltage in reserve for load increases.

MartyE posted:

Was the stall setting set inadvertently?

Interesting thought, but wouldn't that just make it take off faster at first?  The stall setting just starts you out at a higher speed setting when you crack the throttle, right?

OK, the problem is solved. Loose impeller on the front motor. I glued it on last night and engine is running fine this morning, starts creeping on step 1. Thanks to Steims and Alex M for posting the ES44 repair info.

As I said before, I could see from the top of the rear motor that it was properly trying to start on speed step 1. I could not see if the front motor was helping. I should have listened more closely for spinning sounds in the front motor instead of assuming that Legacy was somehow at fault because of the speed step issue. That accounted for the higher steps required to get the engine moving, and the discrepancies at higher speeds. Lesson learned is to always rule out all mechanical possibilities first.

BobbyD posted:

Not an expert but that may be because with Odyssey on it is holding some voltage in reserve for load increases.

Odyssey in command mode should start at speed step #1, the hold-back is in conventional mode.  It doesn't need any hold-back when it's just starting up in command mode, it has 18V on the track available.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

BobbyD posted:

Not an expert but that may be because with Odyssey on it is holding some voltage in reserve for load increases.

Odyssey in command mode should start at speed step #1, the hold-back is in conventional mode.  It doesn't need any hold-back when it's just starting up in command mode, it has 18V on the track available.

I agree, just going by what he said.

Greenline posted:

"With engines uncoupled it runs slower with odyssey on and faster with odyssey off." 

I know what he said, my point is it's indicating a malfunction, not normal operation.

Greenline posted:

OK, the problem is solved. Loose impeller on the front motor. I glued it on last night and engine is running fine this morning, starts creeping on step 1. Thanks to Steims and Alex M for posting the ES44 repair info.

I hasten to point out, my experience is that normal glue doesn't last long on the LionDrive impellers. I use a Loctite retaining compount for this kind of issue.

Update on my ES44 after further testing. The engine ran OK  but the lion gear/ trucks interface was too tight and there was a rubbing noise that I could hear with the engine off. I did not push the impeller all the way on, there was a tiny gap. It should be flush with the top of the motor pin.  It is probably a good thing that I used the Locktite super glue gel. It had not fully set and I was able to get the impeller off, clean, and re-glue with it flush with the motor pin. I think it will be OK for light duty and if it comes off again I will use a better version of Locktite. There is a taper in the impeller, so if you press it on the glue is not the only thing holding it on. A better design would be a slot or flat spot, but Lionel took cheaper approach for easier factory assembly.

Greenline - good info!  So the hub of the impeller should be flush with the end (top) of the pin; not pushed all the way down to the body of the motor.

On this loco you cannot push the impeller any farther down to the motor body  than flush with top of pin. Also, it won't go on at all if you reverse it.