Visionline AT&SF 3000 Help

It seems the one variable in your setup is that you moved. If everything was working well before. I'd check to make sure you you have the base plugged into a properly grounded outlet.

All VisionLine engines respond to engin 99. Try that to see if it starts up. I suppose your using the Legacy Cab 2 System.  Older TMCC engines were programmed eng 1.  Good Luck...

leapinlarry posted:

All VisionLine engines respond to engin 99. Try that to see if it starts up. I suppose your using the Legacy Cab 2 System.  Older TMCC engines were programmed eng 1.  Good Luck...

Thanks for the advice.... I just tried your suggestion of addressing it using engine 99, and it pretty much had the same outcome.... meaning, all of the number lights for the engine and tender lit up when I powered up the track.  Then when I addressed the engine with 99, it whistled to confirm the address, and then the tender started making its "at rest" sounds, but still the engine would not move.  The only difference this time (by using engine 99 to address) is that the cab light of the engine kept blinking on and off every second or so... and not the 5 error blinks.... it just kept blinking on and off the entire time I had it powered up (which was only for about 2 minutes).  Hmmmm.

Wow, it’s sure beginning to sound like a signal issue.  Do you have a Cab 1 base and remote? If so, hook that up and leave your legacy system off completely.  That’s what I do on my layout, this narrows down the problem.

leapinlarry posted:

Wow, it’s sure beginning to sound like a signal issue.  Do you have a Cab 1 base and remote? If so, hook that up and leave your legacy system off completely.  That’s what I do on my layout, this narrows down the problem.

I do not own the Cab 1 system, so I can't check.... but since I was able to run the VL Big Boy and the VL EVO, I wouldn't think it was a Legacy Base and Cab 2 issue... but to your point, I guess maybe it could be a connectivity issue with the VL AT&SF 3000.  But it's odd that I seem to be connecting with the AT&SF tender, just not the engine.

Hi,seeing your having problems with the Gevo and Big Boy engines,I would get them operating the way they should first before adding the ATSF engine into the mix. Did the fastrack terminal section have the red and black terminals on the end of the wire,if not you may have the wires backwards on the powermaster going to the track. I'm sure you have the wire from the Legacy base to the U terminal on the PowerMaster?

Doug

My guess is if two engines didn't reverse before and the third won't work now you have a track/wiring/legacy issue. I would disconnect everything and try with one piece of straight track. Don't recall, does the remote have fresh new batteries? Do they run fine conventionally? If all three engines hum something is amiss. I've never wired like this, are both bricks in phase?

Another thing to check is the infa red signal between the engine and the tender.  Make sure they are aligned  and clean with one another. 

The cab flashing indicates a possible motor or drive train failure if it's truly approximately 1 blink per second continuous.

1) Check your ground

2) Check your Legacy base/battery condition

3) Make certain the track is spotless and there are no ground plane issues. Ground plane issues are insidious !!

If you have a problem with one loco, that is one direction but since there are several problems, the issue is like to be your outlet or your base.

trnluvr posted:

Hi,seeing your having problems with the Gevo and Big Boy engines,I would get them operating the way they should first before adding the ATSF engine into the mix. Did the fastrack terminal section have the red and black terminals on the end of the wire,if not you may have the wires backwards on the powermaster going to the track. I'm sure you have the wire from the Legacy base to the U terminal on the PowerMaster?

Doug

Thanks for the reply.  Yes, the Fastrack terminal sections have the red and black designations, so I am pretty sure that is correct.  I am not at home right now, but I believe red is the middle rail and black is the outer rail. As for the connection to the Legacy base, I do not have the connection going directly from the legacy base to the U terminal of the Powermaster.  Instead, I have a second terminal section of Fastrack in my loop that only has the black wire connected to the Legacy base.  So in each track loop, I have one terminal section that connects to the Powermaster and one terminal section (only the black wire) that connects to the Legacy base to complete the circuit.

BobbyD posted:

My guess is if two engines didn't reverse before and the third won't work now you have a track/wiring/legacy issue. I would disconnect everything and try with one piece of straight track. Don't recall, does the remote have fresh new batteries? Do they run fine conventionally? If all three engines hum something is amiss. I've never wired like this, are both bricks in phase?

I am not home right now, but I do like your suggestion about possibly just trying a simple section of straight track to see if that changes anything, so maybe I can try that tonight.  I went to the local Batteries and Bulbs store and they sold me 3 fresh, pre-charged 2500 1.2v batteries for the Cab 2, so I don't think batteries are the issue.  I haven't tried to run anything conventionally yet to know whether there is an issue there or not.  As for the Powerhouses being in phase, how would I check that?  Thanks for the help!

prh2j posted:

 As for the Powerhouses being in phase, how would I check that?  Thanks for the help!

With both Powerhouses/Powermasters on at the same voltage (18volts is the output?) measure with your meter between the center rails of each loop. If they are in phase there will be 0 voltage reading on your volt meter and if they are out of phase at 18 volts each the meter will read about 36 volts. A picture of your wiring?

Unfortunately, this takes me back to my initial experience with the ATSF 3000, which led to it being sent to a real expert, Alex M, for servicing. I bought this engine in the secondary market aware that it had been returned for service to Lionel (I was told it was fixed).

I hasten to say that it works now although there is still an annoying buzz from the electronics when the sound system is not running, which is a problem with other early Legacy engines and is a lot less than before I sent it to Alex.

This model turned out to have (a) a faulty RUN/PGM switch, which might account for your inability to get it to take a new engine ID, and (b) another electronic component relating to the IR link between engine and tender, which was overheating and not functioning. Aside from this, the engine would not roll at all when I first got it and I got the main drive fault series of cab blinks. I checked the main driveshaft (under the middle of the engine) and it had RUST on it despite being plated in some reflective metal. I had to roll the engine back and forth by hand to free up the drive mechanism and I made sure the gearbox and running gear were lubed.

All this sounds like it has something in common with your situation. This engine has back drivable gears so you can try rolling it by hand back and forth on the track to free up the drive mechanism if applying power will not do the trick. Also see if possibly your RUN/PGM with got installed wrong way round by reversing which way it is set when you try and program the engine.

And please post the result of your effort because it always helps to have any feedback with this kind of (seriously annoying) issue.

MartyE posted:

The cab flashing indicates a possible motor or drive train failure if it's truly approximately 1 blink per second continuous.

I think it only did the 1 blink per second when I tried to address it as engine 99.  I will try to address it as engine 1 tonight when I get home to see if it does the continuous blink again.  I appreciate the insight.

Hancock52 posted:

Unfortunately, this takes me back to my initial experience with the ATSF 3000, which led to it being sent to a real expert, Alex M, for servicing. I bought this engine in the secondary market aware that it had been returned for service to Lionel (I was told it was fixed).

I hasten to say that it works now although there is still an annoying buzz from the electronics when the sound system is not running, which is a problem with other early Legacy engines and is a lot less than before I sent it to Alex.

This model turned out to have (a) a faulty RUN/PGM switch, which might account for your inability to get it to take a new engine ID, and (b) another electronic component relating to the IR link between engine and tender, which was overheating and not functioning. Aside from this, the engine would not roll at all when I first got it and I got the main drive fault series of cab blinks. I checked the main driveshaft (under the middle of the engine) and it had RUST on it despite being plated in some reflective metal. I had to roll the engine back and forth by hand to free up the drive mechanism and I made sure the gearbox and running gear were lubed.

All this sounds like it has something in common with your situation. This engine has back drivable gears so you can try rolling it by hand back and forth on the track to free up the drive mechanism if applying power will not do the trick. Also see if possibly your RUN/PGM with got installed wrong way round by reversing which way it is set when you try and program the engine.

And please post the result of your effort because it always helps to have any feedback with this kind of (seriously annoying) issue.

 

 

Wow, so I am sad to hear that you had issues with your VL AT&SF 3000 at the outset, but I appreciate you sharing your experience since some of the symptoms sound very similar to mine.  I can't speak to the motor inside the engine, but I am able to easily move the engine and tender forward and backward on the Fastrack with no binding or resistance.  So that's good news I guess.  I will also try to recommendation about the RUN/PGM switch just in case it may have been installed bacwards.  Doesn't hurt to try.  Thanks for sharing!

 A couple of questions.

 Are the 2 loops connected in anyway trackage wise ?  From what I'm reading they aren't and only share the Legacy Base and they have separate power supplies.

 If you are running command for these engines. You can hook the 180 bricks right to the track for testing for now. The powermasters are not needed.

 The Big Boy and the EVO ran properly before. Do all other functions work and they just don't reverse ?

 I never liked the combination rocker switch for directional changing, boost and brake. Seems like a weak link in the remote. If everything is working except the direction change. Try spinning the wheel quickly counterclockwise after you bring the engine to a stop. This will also reverse it. The manual explains how.

 As far as the infrared tether. The engine should function normally without the tender being on the track as far as running and programming.

Thanks for your sympathy about my ATSF 3000 but apart from the buzz it all works as it should now (on a Fastrak layout powered by a ZW-C with two power bricks). I should have added in my initial response that all of the special VL features of this engine (blowdown smoke, swinging bell, crew talk etc.) worked right out of the box - it just made a loud noise and would not move! And the dreaded cab light flashes came up quickly. That however disappeared when I manually freed up the drive train.

Looking again at your posts, I am unsure whether the other two VL engines you mention are now operating as they should or not. (I have those too and neither has ever exhibited the symptoms you describe, especially the buzzing noise.) If they are not working, on reflection it strikes me that, as others have said, you may have a wiring/ground plane issue. I've avoided using Powermasters because the standard transformer setup I have is fine for Legacy operation (and the occasional test I do in conventional mode) so I can't comment on those but the way you have hooked up the common connection for Legacy seems a little odd. I'd do it by the book and see whether that makes a difference. Setting up a small section of test track with a standard Legacy connection is a very good idea.

I assume that you know the simple test for ground plane issues is to hold your hand right above the engine when trying to address it and see if it responds as it should. After we had some new house wiring done to add some outside LED lighting, I found that the circuit in the adjoining room caused ground plane issues and had to move the layout elsewhere. 

Again, please post your solution or the lack of one for the benefit of the virtual library on specific engine/wiring issues.

Dave_C posted:

 A couple of questions.

 Are the 2 loops connected in anyway trackage wise ?  From what I'm reading they aren't and only share the Legacy Base and they have separate power supplies.

 If you are running command for these engines. You can hook the 180 bricks right to the track for testing for now. The powermasters are not needed.

 The Big Boy and the EVO ran properly before. Do all other functions work and they just don't reverse ?

 I never liked the combination rocker switch for directional changing, boost and brake. Seems like a weak link in the remote. If everything is working except the direction change. Try spinning the wheel quickly counterclockwise after you bring the engine to a stop. This will also reverse it. The manual explains how.

 As far as the infrared tether. The engine should function normally without the tender being on the track as far as running and programming.

 

Dave.. thanks for the reply.   Here are my answers to your questions.

Correct, my two loops are not connected track wise and yes, the loops have separate 180W Powerhouse power supplies.... the only connection of the two loops in any way is by the black wire that connects each loop separately to the Legacy base.  (I plan to try to post a picture of my wiring setup in a separate post later this morning as it might help others find my issue.) 

As for connecting the 180W Powerhouses directly to the track as opposed to going through the Powermasters, I don't think I can do that right away since the powerhouse has the special connector on the end of it, and thus I don't a way to connect it to the Fastrack.   (I also live about 90 minutes from a Lionel dealer, so not something I could probably get too easily right now.)

Correct.... all other functions of the Big Boy and EVO seem to work, they just won't reverse.  The only other time I had the directional reversing problem with the EVO was before I moved, and I found a very slight break in the Fastrack, that, once I secured the fit all of the way around the loop, the directional reversing function worked correctly.  However, I don't see any breaks in either the O-84 or O-96 Fastrack loops, and the Fastrack is all newly purchased. 

prh2j posted:

So in each track loop, I have one terminal section that connects to the Powermaster and one terminal section (only the black wire) that connects to the Legacy base to complete the circuit.

Are the loops connected together by a switch?  If so you need to remove one of the Legacy base connections.  There should only ever be one wire from the base to a layout, which is why it's recommended to connect the base to the PowerMaster.

EDIT: Seems you answered my question.  But I would go back and say start with just one loop of track.  Got to make the setup as simple as possible.  Also, have you held your hand over the locomotive as you issue the commands?  That'll help figure out if it's a signal issue.  Are you using any kind of grounding power strips, or is the base plugged right into the wall for power?  Have you checked to make sure the house is wired correctly for earth ground?

I am going to try to post a hand drawn picture of the wiring for the two loops in case anyone sees a glaring error.  (Please forgive my penmanship and poor scaling.)  I did check the wall outlets and the surge protector outlets, and they all are grounded correctly.  I noted it in the picture, but the wiring for the O-84 Fastrack loop goes underneath the O-96 Fastrack loop in order to connect with the powerhouse, powermaster, and Legacy base.  I was told by Ryan Kunkle at York to connect both separate track loops to the same Legacy base in order to prevent interference, so hopefully I did it correctly (see picture below).

If I get a chance, I will unhook everything, and just focus on one loop.  One weird thing last night, utilizing the hand drawn wiring schematic above, I powered up the O-96 loop and ran the Big Boy around the loop once.  When I brought it to rest, the engine lights seemed to be brighter white than normal and it was making a sound I had not heard before.... almost like it was getting too much juice.  I then took the Big Boy off of the O-96 loop and placed the VL EVO on the O-96 loop.  It started up fine, but halfway around the loop, it lost power going over a portion of track, then powered itself up and continued moving.  I brought the EVO to rest, and when I walked over to the section of track where it lost power for some reason, I could hear high pitched humming coming from that area of track. 

Is it possible to have bad track (even though the track is all brand new), and, if so, what is the best way to test the track?

Thanks again to everyone for all of the help!!!!

Phil

The Legacy base plugged into the surge protector could be degrading your signal.  Try plugging it right into the wall outlet.

Is it possible to run the Legacy base wires right to both "U" terminal and eliminate another track connection?

Also, is this the same issue? Was it ever corrected?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=40849085806055264

MartyE posted:

The Legacy base plugged into the surge protector could be degrading your signal.  Try plugging it right into the wall outlet.

Thanks, Marty.... I will try your suggestion.  It can only help.

BobbyD posted:

Is it possible to run the Legacy base wires right to both "U" terminal and eliminate another track connection?

 

Also, is this the same issue? Was it ever corrected?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=40849085806055264

Bobby.... it certainly would be possible, and probably even ideal, but I'd have to go buy either wire or single C connector strips in order to be able to remove one of the terminal sections from each loop and maintain the connection to the Legacy base.  I should probably head towards such a solution, but, for right now, the loops containing two terminal sections each are the best I can do.

As for the link you posted (which was my issue back in 2015), it's a different issue.  Back in 2015, I wasn't getting any power to the track at all, and, after much agonizing, I discovered that one of the slide connectors underneath the terminal section of my loop had come loose.  As soon as I connected the wire, the issue was solved.

Well your posts in this thread led me to believe these engines never worked correctly:

prh2j posted:

I recently moved and just got around to setting up my small layout loops.  I have a separate O-84 inner loop and an outer O-96 loop.  Each loop has its own 180W Powerhouse and Legacy Powermaster.   I use 2 Fastrack terminal sections on each loop to make the necessary connections to each Powermaster and to the Legacy base.  Before I moved, I had already programmed the Visionline Big Boy and Visionline EVO into the Legacy Cab 2 remote. I was just able to get the Big Boy to operate on the O-96 loop and the EVO to operate on the O-84 loop, although I couldn't get either one of them to reverse directions... maybe I have a track or power issue??? 

 

As an aside, on either track loop, I seem to be getting a humming sound from the tenders of my steam engines and from the EVO diesel when I power up the track before I even address the engines.... I assume that's not normal (as I don't remember such a hum when I had my loop at the other house).  I am just trying to provide as many details as possible in case it might help someone deduce my problem.  Thanks in advance for the help!!!

Phil

prh2j posted:

Dave.. thanks for the reply.   Here are my answers to your questions.

Correct, my two loops are not connected track wise and yes, the loops have separate 180W Powerhouse power supplies.... the only connection of the two loops in any way is by the black wire that connects each loop separately to the Legacy base.  (I plan to try to post a picture of my wiring setup in a separate post later this morning as it might help others find my issue.) 

As for connecting the 180W Powerhouses directly to the track as opposed to going through the Powermasters, I don't think I can do that right away since the powerhouse has the special connector on the end of it, and thus I don't a way to connect it to the Fastrack.   (I also live about 90 minutes from a Lionel dealer, so not something I could probably get too easily right now.)

Correct.... all other functions of the Big Boy and EVO seem to work, they just won't reverse.  The only other time I had the directional reversing problem with the EVO was before I moved, and I found a very slight break in the Fastrack, that, once I secured the fit all of the way around the loop, the directional reversing function worked correctly.  However, I don't see any breaks in either the O-84 or O-96 Fastrack loops, and the Fastrack is all newly purchased. 

If you have 3 engines and they all have issues, either all are defective or something is wrong with your power set-up. Connecting the Legacy base directly to the Powermasters probably would've cut your wire run shorter and also eliminated a connection variable. Fastrack track pins are not always good for connections as many posts here have noted, that's why I recommended a only a straight for testing to resolve your issues. I purchased a 30" piece of straight track just for situations like this one. Keep us posted what you discover tonight.

Any update?

So for those who are still monitoring this thread, I appreciate the help..... here is a quick update.  I took Marty's advice and plugged the Legacy base straight into the wall outlet (instead of going through a surge protector).  I did the same for the 180W Powerhouse just to try to remove as many variables as possible.  I then took the advice of many and created a short section of straight track with my two terminal sections to connect to the Legacy Powermaster and the Legacy base.  I don't have jumpers under my Fastrack so I was only able to get enough juice in my straight track test section to go for about 30 inches or so.  However, with the VL EVO, I was actually able to get it to reverse directions using the Legacy Cab 2, so my original problem does not appear to be with the EVO itself. 

I then proceeded to put the AT&SF 3000 on the track (just the engine as I was afraid if I put the tender on the track it would be too long to maintain juice to the test track section I created).  Unfortunately, while the number markers lit up on the AT&SF engine, I couldn't address the engine and the cab light flashed on and off continuously every second or so.... per Marty's earlier comment, I have a bad feeling that it's a very bad sign and that it will require me to request repairs of either Lionel Service, Mike Regan, Alex M, etc., or a local authorized dealer/service station (although I don't know if a local authorized dealer typically services VL product.... I expect not).  Plus my local dealer/service station is about 90 minutes away.... but it would prevent me from having to endure potential shipping damage back and forth.  No idea how much repairs might cost if it's a motor or drive issue?  By the way, where the heck do I find the AT&SF 3000 serial number so that I can register it with Lionel?  I gave a quick look under the engine and tender and didn't see it right away, but I probably just overlooked it.

Thanks again for all of the help!  I am heading out of town for a few days, but I can try any other ideas anyone might have once I get back, so feel free to keep making suggestions.

Phil

prh2j posted:

"I then took the advice of many and created a short section of straight track with my two terminal sections to connect to the Legacy Powermaster and the Legacy base.  I don't have jumpers under my Fastrack so I was only able to get enough juice in my straight track test section to go for about 30 inches or so.  However, with the VL EVO, I was actually able to get it to reverse directions using the Legacy Cab 2, so my original problem does not appear to be with the EVO itself."

Phil

Glad to hear the EVO worked Phil. Not sure what "jumpers" under the track you are talking about. If you have power to one track, it should power the other tracks stuck together, no jumpers required.

Might have missed it, did you try and reset the engine?

BobbyD posted:

prh2j posted:

"I then took the advice of many and created a short section of straight track with my two terminal sections to connect to the Legacy Powermaster and the Legacy base.  I don't have jumpers under my Fastrack so I was only able to get enough juice in my straight track test section to go for about 30 inches or so.  However, with the VL EVO, I was actually able to get it to reverse directions using the Legacy Cab 2, so my original problem does not appear to be with the EVO itself."

Phil

Glad to hear the EVO worked Phil. Not sure what "jumpers" under the track you are talking about. If you have power to one track, it should power the other tracks stuck together, no jumpers required.

Might have missed it, did you try and reset the engine?

Well then we might be on to something here.... I assumed that the power supply would only function so far without a closed loop track circuit.  (I think I read somewhere on the forum in a different thread that you might need to use wire jumpers to connect pieces of track that aren't in a complete closed loop in order to have electrical current extend along the complete length of open ended track.)  At any rate, my straight test track arrangement consisted of two terminal sections (one for the connection to the Legacy base at one end and one for the connection to the Powermaster and Powerhouse at the other end) and four 10 inch straight pieces of Fastrack between them.  The EVO started at the terminal section at the end connected to the Powermaster and Powerhouse.  The EVO only managed to travel forward one more straight track piece before it completely lost power on the third 10 inch section of straight track.  I assumed that maybe was due to the fact that I didn't have a closed loop and the electrical current could only travel so far, but if you're telling me that the 180W powerhouse should be capable of maintaining power across 6 connected straight pieces of Fastrack with no problem, then something is wrong.  I just purchased all brand new Fastrack, but I guess it is it possible to have "bad" track.  Anyone have any advice as to the best way to test the individual pieces of track to see if I have any duds in the mix? 

Also, if you're asking whether I tried to reset the AT&SF 3000 engine last night, I did not.  I am not at home right now, and I assume it's in the instruction manual, but what's the best way to perform a reset from the Legacy Cab 2? 

Thanks!

Usually a blinking cab light means that it lost signal from the Legacy base.  Are you sure your antenna is plugged in correctly? Can you see any visible damage to the handrails? 

Evan Cihlar posted:

Usually a blinking cab light means that it lost signal from the Legacy base.  Are you sure your antenna is plugged in correctly? Can you see any visible damage to the handrails? 

Evan, thanks for the advice.  I will check both the antenna and the handrails, but I would think (maybe incorrectly) that if the Big Boy and the EVO are receiving commands and aren't suffering the blinking light issue that the Legacy base antenna is not the source of the issue with the AT&SF 3000.... and I am pretty sure that the AT&SF 3000 had never been taken out of the box, so it looks to be in pristine condition but I will check it over more closely when I get the chance.  It doesn't hurt to try. Thanks for the help!

Maybe you could put a voltage meter to each piece of track to determine if there is a bad one.

prh2j posted:

Evan Cihlar posted:

Usually a blinking cab light means that it lost signal from the Legacy base.  Are you sure your antenna is plugged in correctly? Can you see any visible damage to the handrails? 

Evan, thanks for the advice.  I will check both the antenna and the handrails, but I would think (maybe incorrectly) that if the Big Boy and the EVO are receiving commands and aren't suffering the blinking light issue that the Legacy base antenna is not the source of the issue with the AT&SF 3000.... and I am pretty sure that the AT&SF 3000 had never been taken out of the box, so it looks to be in pristine condition but I will check it over more closely when I get the chance.  It doesn't hurt to try. Thanks for the help!

A flashing or flickering headlight usually represents a weak signal to the engine.  If you unplug your base and start your layout up, watch the headlight.  For the first few seconds while the engine is "looking" for the Legacy  or TMCC signal it will exhibit the same action.  Once it realizes it's on a conventional layout the light goes solid.  When it's on a layout with a weak signal it will continue to flicker.  Just as a note though, a solid headlight on a Legacy layout does not always indicate a good signal reception but a flickering headlight usually always points to a poor signal reception.

The only other thing I did last night was to take a short video of the VL EVO on the short portion of straight test track while it was at rest on a powered track.  Hopefully you can hear the hum from this video.  Does it sound normal.  The hum seems much louder to me than I remember (before my move), but maybe I am fretting about something needlessly and perhaps it is normal.  Or maybe it’s a symptom of my original problem. I’ve never posted video before so hopefully this works   Thanks!

Sounds normal to me. 

I agree with Rod, that sounds like typical background hum of an RS6 board.

Second, I wan't able to get through all the replies to this thread, but as was suggested earlier, it could be a bad or reversed program/run switch.

So if AUX 1 is the reset for the engine, the AT&SF 3000 did not seem to respond when in either Run or Program mode since it was mentioned that maybe the run/prgm switch may have been installed bawkwards.  The headlight seems to have no flicker or degradation once power is given to the track, but since I don’t have a conventional transformer and only have the 180W powerhouse, I am not sure how to unplug the Legacy base yet still give the track power to check for a headlight flicker.   All handrails seem to be perfect and not broken or damaged.   Only other option would be to buy a replacement Legacy base antenna and see if that could be the problem as I have no way to test it as far as I know.  

Well if the other locomotives are working with the base the base is not the issue.  To take away base power all you need to do is unplug the base and still apply power to the track.