My Challenger has swinging pipes on the top of the front steam chests. Don't these need to be disconnected before pulling the front drivers??? The pipes are just like those on the Allegheny #1604. The job doesn't look that simple to me because of the fragile piping on the steam chests.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a video of the new Challenger with the articulated sound that Lionel is putting in the Challenger when buyers request it. Does anyone own a sound-revised Challenger that can post a video with sound?
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John: I think the backlog is four weeks or so. I doubt any of these have been updated and returned yet.
We're all going to be waiting for that day. I've yet to pick mine up before I even get a call tag for it. See about that soon enough.
An interesting thought with the sound file, is it an addition to the current sound file (with matching # crew sounds) or is the sound file that is loaded simply the old file?
hclarke posted:Like I said, it's no big deal for me. I'll check it out and then decide. Lot's of trains to play with in any event.
Harold
I decided to play with my other trains while my Challenger and 2 sets of my Legacy ALCOs are in. I kept thinking that at some point down the road I might regret not having the sounds updated. Just a preference or recognition of my self diagnosed OCD. I would have wondered every time I ran the Challenger. Oh well, 4 weeks and the family will be together again.
I will add, beautiful engine. Don't regret the purchase 1 iota.
John Rowlen posted:I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a video of the new Challenger with the articulated sound that Lionel is putting in the Challenger when buyers request it. Does anyone own a sound-revised Challenger that can post a video with sound?
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Check back in a month. Mine arrived at Lionel on Friday.
The sound files are specific for the Vision Line engine road number. I wonder if my Greyhound #3977 will come back with a generic sound set, but with articulated sounds? It would be nice if Lionel posted what the sound update would and would not do.
It has to go in because the Ground Motion Light above the Engineer side rear drivers does not light. I thought these Challengers had been inspected. I know my Hanes underwear is. For what I don't know.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
my Challenger is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Will check it out and report.
😎
Harold
John brings up a good point. I'm not willing to lose my cab specific crew talk and loco ID.
That said, I'm not sure if the "chuff" sound and the crew talk are related.
I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.
Generic sound files wow let’s see how much other crazy stuff gets thrown out....
John Rowlen posted:The sound files are specific for the Vision Line engine road number. I wonder if my Greyhound #3977 will come back with a generic sound set, but with articulated sounds? It would be nice if Lionel posted what the sound update would and would not do.
It has to go in because the Ground Motion Light above the Engineer side rear drivers does not light. I thought these Challengers had been inspected. I know my Hanes underwear is. For what I don't know.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Spoke with Katie who was extremely helpful in solving several issues. She said they have not been told yet as to what the update entails in terms of new crew talk specific with articulated sounds vs if it would be a throwback to the earlier Challenger sound files. As she did not know, she did not state either way. I do appreciate her honesty!
Presumably, this would be the worst case scenario on the sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlhzVTyMtng
Lionmaster Legacy 3985
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.
After all the flap about the non-articulated sounds, can you imagine if they came back with the wrong cab number in the crew talk?
gunrunnerjohn posted:Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.
After all the flap about the non-articulated sounds, can you imagine if they came back with the wrong cab number in the crew talk?
John, are you saying people may get the chickenline Challenger? Now that I thought about it some more, I still think whatever the swap is that those particular sound files would have to be in there, crew talk and all.
My f40 came back with wrong sounds, so I wouldn't be surprised if they screwed anything up.
I looked closely under bright light at the two Work Lights/Motion Ground Lights on the Engineers side of the Challenger tonight. The right front Light socket has a yellow LED in it that gives white light. The other socket in the rear has a gray interior and has no sign of the yellow LED. No wonder the light fixture does not give white light.
This engine was inspected and has a label on the box. Did they inspect the engine? Or did they inspect the box?
I am very disappointed with this engine. I had to tighten screws on the front end cow catcher assembly underside because it hung down when I put the engine on the track. A front railing on the porch assembly was also out of its post. The power plug to the tender was also out of its socket because the wire lead was very short and wrapped in a tight bundle of wires. It must have vibrated loose during shipping. I was able to pull a little more gray cable and plug it into the tender power socket.
This 1931250 Greyhound Challenger #3977 is beautiful. It will look perfect pulling my 21" Challenger Cars that I detailed with Presier people that I painted. I am beyond frustrated. Good night.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Received my Union Pacific 3717 Challenger last week with this label affixed to the box
I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation. Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.
This also brings up another issue I have, why are classification lights always lit in green? My understanding was that classification lights were clear or white, and were turned on only when special circumstances existed. "Green. Indicated that, while the train displaying the lights was a regularly scheduled one, a second section was following behind it. " White was used only if it was an extra train, not shown in the timetable.
When Lionel, MTH and others advertise a prototype correct engine, I wish they would discontinue marker lights on tender and correct the classification lights. Yes, I know that some roads had marker lights permanently installed on tenders, such as the Penn, but most all others did not use marker lights on tenders except is they were pushers.
Ray
Berkshire President posted:John: I think the backlog is four weeks or so. I doubt any of these have been updated and returned yet.
I was just told 6 to 7 weeks... i just called in for mine...
Bob: assuming you're at liberty to say, can I ask what you're sending it in for? Just the articulated sound upgrade?
Ray of sunshine posted:I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation. Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.
Ray
It is a very simple fix. Like any other modern Legacy or VL locomotive, you can turn those markers off using the cab2 remote. When you go to the AUX2 secondary screen, you have icons to turn them off/on. When pulling a train, turn off your rear markers. Turn off your front Class Lights.....
VERY SIMPLE
Laidoffsick posted:Ray of sunshine posted:I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation. Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.
Ray
It is a very simple fix. Like any other modern Legacy or VL locomotive, you can turn those markers off using the cab2 remote. When you go to the AUX2 secondary screen, you have icons to turn them off/on. When pulling a train, turn off your rear markers. Turn off your front Class Lights.....
VERY SIMPLE
Good information, as I did the same thing with most all of my MTH steam locomotive models. That said, why does Lionel still insist on offering these high end Vision Line steam models of freight locomotives, with green class light?????
Yes, I am aware of how to turn them off, and it was good to see a reminder on that, thanks Laidoffsick.
I personally would rather not have marker lights at all on the tender of engines, with only a few exceptions like PRR, that the prototype did not have/use. They aren't correct and I personally just really don't like them. It's as though the manufacturers fell that the more lights added to the animation of a model engine, attracts more buyers.
And as far as Class lights, I agree with Hot Water.
RAY
because Lionel feels the same as many people in the 3 rail hobby....they just love all the lights and sounds whether they are accurate or not. Kinda the reason this and several other threads have started recently. Better to have them with the ability to turn them off, we never had that ability before. I went in a cut or unplug a lot of lights.
Just because your car has a dome light doesn't mean you ever have to drive with it on 
but better to have it in case you dropped your ________ in the dark so you can find it.
Like Hot Water says, get rid of the green, at least go with clear, but we were all told they are no longer accepting input from their customers!
Berkshire President posted:Bob: assuming you're at liberty to say, can I ask what you're sending it in for? Just the articulated sound upgrade?
Surely not Bob said he was ok with the sound the way it was did he not!!!!!
As we become more educated in the hobby and in prototype operation, and with manufactures, such as Lionel, that does a fantastic job of detailing models for us 3rd railers, it sure would be nice if they did pay more attention to our input and suggestions. Weather they implement out suggestions, is another thing.
Not taking anything away from others that like all the gimmicks , whistles and bells, even if not accurate, is fine. I'm not saying that everything needs to be prototypical correct. Look at what Lionel did with the SP AC12 cab forward in Daylight colors, or the UP Challenger "what if" paint scheme. I don't like them, but others do and they should have what makes them feel happy.
But more and more modelers, especially those that are coming of age, are looking for something that is even more accurate. The great improvements in sound and control, WIFI instead of remotes, quilling and smoking whistles and "smoking" water scoop on the new Niagara, etc. have enhance the hobby. So I applaud Lionel and others to continue to push up the bar.
I support the elimination of marker lights on a tender, even for "what if" paint schemes. This little change may be too late as the dies have already been cut years ago. The last thing Lionel wants to do is invest $$$$ in new dies for existing tenders.
So I guess "it is what it is".
RAY
How hard can it be to lop them off and re-touch the crater?
Half my locomotives have green class jewels. I put as many markers as I can on my models. An AC-11 can have four markers and two class lamps. Mine get them all! Yet I insist on 2-rail track, and a scale that makes the track scale out to 4'8 1/2" gauge. Takes all kinds.
Cut those offending suckers off, fill the hole with JB Weld, and touch up with a black paint marker.
Berkshire President posted:Bob: assuming you're at liberty to say, can I ask what you're sending it in for? Just the articulated sound upgrade?
Hi Berk... yes sounds upgrade...
Then i will reset drivers when they get home!
They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.
Not sure what you expect them to say every has been answered on here about those questions, one has nothing to do with the other.......
Shawn_Chronister posted:Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.
Not sure what you expect them to say every has been answered on here about those questions, one has nothing to do with the other.......
No, not everything has been answered here Shawn, and obviously the two locomotives I am talking about aren't the same. My point was that they actually answered my email which included questions about the two. I know someone besides myself has stated that the emails we send in go to the great black hole more often then not. I was surprised to get a response. Granted they were a bit sketchy with not exactly telling me if it was the sounds or the drivers they were talking about of the second part of my question I had asked as I was asking about both the sounds and the drivers(this had been before most of this thread had gotten underway as the prior one had just been shut down IIRC).
If Dave Olsen would do a brief Video of the new and old sounds in just one road number, it could help owners decide if it is worth sending the engine back for service.
I know you are busy Dave, but this actually could cut back on some returns …. or bring you a large number more. It would allow owners of Challengers to make an educated decision.
Again, Thank you for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the Oil Burning Big Boy Tenders.
Thanks, John Rowlen
I saw an HO steam engine that you could control the class lights. you can turn them on and off and change the color from white to green. I believe they used 2 color LEDs for the two colors.
John Rowlen posted:If Dave Olsen would do a brief Video of the new and old sounds in just one road number, it could help owners decide if it is worth sending the engine back for service.
I know you are busy Dave, but this actually could cut back on some returns …. or bring you a large number more. It would allow owners of Challengers to make an educated decision.
Again, Thank you for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the Oil Burning Big Boy Tenders.
Thanks, John Rowlen
Are you serious???????? OMG
Howard Reed posted:I saw an HO steam engine that you could control the class lights. you can turn them on and off and change the color from white to green. I believe they used 2 color LEDs for the two colors.
yes bi color or tri color led allows you to change the input voltage to get different colors. Would be a cool option could switch from white green or red depending on the service schedule.
Well, red was not exactly heavily used, only when the locomotive was on the rear end of the train and running backwards, so the white and green should get the job done for most of us.
The problem with current designs is that the class light fixtures are designed to accept the tiny 2mm ceramic LED's for the most part, and those are not bi-color.
Shawn,
I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches. I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.
Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur. At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel. But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night. I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others. The parade of issues is just unbelievable. It must stop.
I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John Rowlen posted:Shawn,
I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches. I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.
Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur. At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel. But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night. I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others. The parade of issues is just unbelievable. It must stop.
I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.
Shawn,
Thank you for clarifying your statement. I am old and feeble and sometimes get confused. Since I get confused, an organized video comparing the original sounds of the current run of Vision Line Challengers to the new and improved sounds of the service update would be helpful.
I know what that Challenger should sound like, if my first Vision Line Challenger was correct. That being said, then Lionel should have known what a Vision Line Challenger should sound like. So why are we having to take this action?
I just want to verify that the sounds will change, and that is worth getting the engine scratched up during the repair.
Sincerely, John Rowlen,
Charter Member, Old and Feeble Model Railroaders of America
I put both the original Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.
The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967. Both Challengers appear to be the same height.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John Rowlen posted:I put both the original Lionel 6-11410 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.
The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967. Both Challengers appear to be the same height.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I don’t hear any difference.
romiller49 posted:John Rowlen posted:I put both the original Lionel 6-11410 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.
The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967. Both Challengers appear to be the same height.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I don’t hear any difference.
IMHO its not a very good comparison...
Rod, You really don't hear the two-tone cadence of the articulated?
Shawn, We work with what we have available.
Since these are both Lionel Vision Line Challengers, this is probably what Lionel has available too.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John Rowlen posted:Rod, You really don't hear the two-tone cadence of the articulated?
Shawn, We work with what we have available.
Since these are both Lionel Vision Line Challengers, this probably what Lionel has available too.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
That what I meant the 3977 being in the foreground overtook the the cadence of the correct chuff. Be better to run the 3977 completely by and then bring in the other challenger with the correct chuff.
Union Pacific Challenger #3967 in the "Valley of Bridges"
Vision Line articulated 6-11210 Challenger, Union Pacific #3967, pulls long freight past 1931250 UP Challenger 3977.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Hey John: who makes the blue and yellow Sante Fe E or F unit that appears in that video?
BTW: I like the look of your train room!
Berkshire President,
The Santa Fe F3 #200 LABC is a Lionel Legacy from several years ago.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John Rowlen posted:Union Pacific Challenger #3967 in the "Valley of Bridges"
Vision Line articulated Challenger, Union Pacific #3967, pulls long freight past UP Challenger 3977.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Ok John. I heard it with the new video. Huge difference. That’s the sound I’d go for. Looks like a great layout.
Shawn_Chronister posted:John Rowlen posted:Shawn,
I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches. I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.
Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur. At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel. But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night. I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others. The parade of issues is just unbelievable. It must stop.
I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.
There are few more videos of the WM Challenger on youtube
sahan posted:Shawn_Chronister posted:John Rowlen posted:Shawn,
I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches. I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.
Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur. At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel. But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night. I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others. The parade of issues is just unbelievable. It must stop.
I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.
There are few more videos of the WM Challenger on youtube
That would explain why he ran it all goofy trying to make it sound like it had it so he could sell them.
After comparing my Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger to the 1931250 new Vision Line Challenger #3977, I see no reason the articulated sound, un-sync drivers can't be added to the new Challengers.
I don't understand why Lionel chose to manufacture the new Challengers the way they did. It is not the first time they made a Vision Line Challenger.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
John Rowlen posted:After comparing my Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger to the 1931250 new Vision Line Challenger #3977, I see no reason the articulated sound, un-sync drivers can't be added to the new Challengers.
I don't understand why Lionel chose to manufacture the new Challengers the way they did. It is not the first time they made a Vision Line Challenger.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
You do realize none of the scale Lionel Challengers (nor any other of their scale articulated steamers) actually go in and out of sync with the front and rear engines, that it's electronic wizardry? Same with scale MTH and Sunset/3rd rail that I know of. Much prefer the artificial 4 chuffs going to 8 chuffs then back to 4 chuffs articulated chuffing than having it fixed at 4 chuffs.
Bobby D,
I did not know that. I do know the two chuff sound chuffs, as currently released by Lionel, sound more like my FEF-3 steam 4-8-4, than the earlier Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger #3967 steam 4-6-6-4. Shouldn't technology be moving the sound systems forward toward greater realism? $2,000.00 is a lot of money for something that is not quite right. A half way effort should have a half-off price.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
At the end of the day, I expect this loco to sound like my JLC Legacy Big Boy and the first VL Challenger. I don't want it to sound like my 844 or my TMCC Mallet that was only "two chuffs".
I doesn't even matter what is technically correct, per se....although that is certainly important. What does matter is this model be DIFFERENT sounding than most of my non-articulated steamers.
Personally, I like the sound "offset" below speed step 14 or so.
Tested new Challenger tonight. Great looking engine - runs really well and I am happy with the sounds. Smoke is excellent, especially the generator smoke.
😎
Harold
My Challengers were sent to Lionel two weeks ago to add the Articulated sound. They originally said maybe three weeks in the shop. Fingers crossed they come home soon.
hclarke posted:Tested new Challenger tonight. Great looking engine - runs really well and I am happy with the sounds. Smoke is excellent, especially the generator smoke.
😎
Harold
Tested mine out as well over the weekend on a 89 car reefer train. Enjoy.
jeremy ferrell posted:Tested mine out as well over the weekend on a 89 car reefer train. Enjoy.
...holy cow... 
Mark in Oregon
hclarke posted:Tested new Challenger tonight. Great looking engine - runs really well and I am happy with the sounds. Smoke is excellent, especially the generator smoke.
😎
Harold
The actual sound quality is VERY robust. Deep and full sounding.
Now if only they had the articulated sound package from the factory........ 
Strummer posted:jeremy ferrell posted:Tested mine out as well over the weekend on a 89 car reefer train. Enjoy.
...holy cow...
Mark in Oregon
pretty impressive, huh? that's a long train.....at a train show, no less.
Unbelievable, how much more can we expect from these engines of today. Thank you for the video.
Loved that video. Is there a way to download to my phone?
89 cars - amazing!!!
Harold
Alabama Joe posted:Loved that video. Is there a way to download to my phone?
I got it, Thanks
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