VisionLine Challengers

 

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Possibly one of the worst quotes on this Forum...of all time.

If you and the two people who liked that post want to just sit back and accept sub-standard or misrepresented product from Big Orange, that's your prerogative.

Others simply expect that a premium price bring a premium product.

So....is the fix just an upgrade to the sound file to include Articulated Sounds....but no change to the position of the drive wheels?

Mine arrived yesterday but I haven't opened it up yet.

Hot Water posted:

I remember back in the "Mike Regan  era", Lionel had a "Quality Control Inspector" over there in China.  So,,,,what happened to him, and why wasn't this reported "sound mistake" found by that "Inspector", over in China prior to any models even being packed?”

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Bottom line, you're stuck with what Lionel decides to put in there. Lionel has a history of unpleasant surprises when it comes to sounds in their high end engines. I have a JLC Allegheny and Legacy Big Boy with whatever random whistle file was available at the time. It's a bit strange when their Lionmaster or Flyer offerings have more correct sound features. They had the edge up until maybe 15 years ago with reliable command control and sounds that had an easy to use interface. The aftermarket at the time picked up the slack with upgrade parts but now they are so far behind the curve. Seems like they just dumbed their stuff down to appeal to boomers and toddlers and no one in between. I was watching a random Loksound vid and the dude was demoing 16 different whistles! 16!”

Years ago when Lionel was first in HO they produced a DCC Veranda Turbine with the most spectacularly realistic sounds I have ever heard from a model engine; I think that they were done by QSI. I’ve never understood why Lionel could not put similar sounds in the O Gauge Veranda Turbine they issued at roughly the same time, which is otherwise one of their finest model diesels ever (IMHO). But judging by what is said above and in particular by GRJ it seems to be a system limitation. Behind the curve indeed.

Berkshire President posted:

So....is the fix just an upgrade to the sound file to include Articulated Sounds....but no change to the position of the drive wheels?

Mine arrived yesterday but I haven't opened it up yet.

Exactly what I was told from Lionel Customer Service (Katie). " Fix sound, do not touch wheels".  Pretty clear to me.  By the way, she said it would take about 48 hours to get the email with label.  4 week turn around at this point.  Still fixing stuff that came in before the move.

Berkshire President posted:

 

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Possibly one of the worst quotes on this Forum...of all time.

If you and the two people who liked that post want to just sit back and accept sub-standard or misrepresented product from Big Orange, that's your prerogative.

What’s that Walter Matthau....?!?

I DO expect a premium product!  Especially for the price!!  But I’m not going to continue to subject the members of this forum to continued whining about what’s happened... especially when the fix has been announced.  It’s a hobby... not a life-determining surgical operation.  

Call Lionel and get an RMA.  They will change your sounds.  They won't do anything with the drivers.  I called this morning, got an RMA (will be emailed to me in the next 24 hours), was told it would take 4 weeks and they are still working on work prior to the move.  They will even pay for shipping.  A bit of a hassle, but better than being told "too bad".

Seriously, for what it is worth, I have a high performance Acela set with the add-on car and will offer anyone a fair even trade if they choose not to keep their Challenger.  Email is in my profile.

Byron:  Kudos for the Grumpy Old Men reference....and I do have some Lake Erie walleye for you....but I won't stick it in your car without letting you know first.

FWIW, there is a difference between simply complaining.....and the purchasers of a product voicing their displeasure in said product b/c it didn't meet their expectations.  Expectations, I might add, that are simply based on a prior run from the same manufacturer.

When you have skin in the game, you're not just a complainer.  You're an end user commenting on the product in question.  In this case, it's an expensive product....that we had to wait for and agreed to purchase sight unseen. 

To the extent that I've waited so long for my 3985, my anticipation built over time.   (I even bought a JLC 4014 in the interim.)  When that anticipation is met with less than expected results, disappointment sets in.

Fortunately, Big Orange appears to be making this right....or at least giving one the option of going down that path.  I feel that, eventually, I'll have the locomotive that I wanted when I ordered it.  I may have to send it back for a sound upgrade and then manually change the position of the front drivers....but I'll have my VL UP 3985 without smoke deflectors....that I can run with my first Legacy version 844 and JLC Big Boy.

Here's my input on the topic.

I personally haven't bought one of the Vision Challengers, so keep in mind my view is from the outside looking in.

Technically speaking, assuming all of the Challengers came with the two sets of drivers in sync, then the sound would be prototypical. If they were to come with the drivers in sync, but with the sounds out of sync, that would not be prototypical. For those who are arguing that in-sync drivers on an articulated wouldn't stay in sync for long (because of wheelslip, vibrations, etc), then to model the physical drivers going out of sync on these engines, you are asking for something that simply isn't easily do-able on a model train with traction tires.

I'm certain that as soon as folks who sent their engines in get them back, some will be whining about the fact that they didn't rotate one of the driver sets to match the sound set. Like Bryant said above, Lionel will not touch the wheels. My suggestion is, if you want articulated sounds so badly, and also want the drivers out of sync, take the risk and send the engine into Lionel and get the new sound set, and then (carefully) adjust the drivers yourself, although you will void the warranty by doing this. There's a tutorial on YouTube!

I hate bashing on manufacturers and on other forum members, and it appears that this is exactly what this thread has devolved into. There is no such thing as perfection. Many people in this hobby worry too much.

Now go run some trains.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Here's my input on the topic.

I personally haven't bought one of the Vision Challengers, so keep in mind my view is from the outside looking in.

Technically speaking, assuming all of the Challengers came with the two sets of drivers in sync, then the sound would be prototypical. If they were to come with the drivers in sync, but with the sounds out of sync, that would not be prototypical. For those who are arguing that in-sync drivers on an articulated wouldn't stay in sync for long (because of wheelslip, vibrations, etc), then to model the physical drivers going out of sync on these engines, you are asking for something that simply isn't easily do-able on a model train with traction tires.

I'm certain that as soon as folks who sent their engines in get them back, some will be whining about the fact that they didn't rotate one of the driver sets to match the sound set. Like Bryant said above, Lionel will not touch the wheels. My suggestion is, if you want articulated sounds so badly, and also want the drivers out of sync, take the risk and send the engine into Lionel and get the new sound set, and then (carefully) adjust the drivers yourself, although you will void the warranty by doing this. There's a tutorial on YouTube!

I hate bashing on manufacturers and on other forum members, and it appears that this is exactly what this thread has devolved into. There is no such thing as perfection. Many people in this hobby worry too much.

Now go run some trains.

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff due to the design of the simple articulated locomotive and it has nothing due with wheel slip that it happens. Drivers appearing out of sync is due to wheel slippage but can be in sync as well.  

Nick:  Your argument misses two major points.....and like you said, you don't have any skin in this game.

There is nothing unreasonable about expecting the 2019 VL Challengers to sound and function like the 2010 VL Challengers....and almost every other articulated that the Company has issued.  That is NOT complaining or bashing in my book.  (Now, if you wish to purchase via BTO and have no reasonable product expectations when doing so, that's up to you.)

Second, it's important (to me, at least) that my 3985 sound more like my 4014 and not like my 844.  It doesn't matter where the drivers are or whether they are in or out of sync.  I want an articulated to sound different than a regular steam engine.  I want the variety and the locomotive sound differentiation.  As delivered from the Factory, this will not happen.  Ergo, my initial disappointment.

So...nobody re-phases their articulated drivers anymore? That was always the first thing you did when you got a new one. Is it against the law now?

Norm Charbonneau posted:

So...nobody re-phases their articulated drivers anymore? That was always the first thing you did when you got a new one. Is it against the law now?

Norm I do not have a problem with the driver being synced my problems is people thinking that if they are synced there is no syncopated chuff.

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff

I don't think that is true, if by "syncopated chuff" you mean the double chuff that can be heard at low speeds and certain angular mismatches between engines.  At several angles the chuff from a simple articulated sounds a lot like a two cylinder locomotive would.  It of course depends on the length of the exhaust stacks, so you may actually get double chuffs when both engines match.  Remember, there will be four angles, at 90 degrees from each other, that will produce single chuff.

There are no economical ways to simulate this in a scale model except for maybe slightly different gear ratios between engines and sound cams on each engine.  You could go to a two motor solution, but most of them involve butchering the boiler and rear cylinder block.  Yuk!

just got notice that my Challenger is shipping.  When it arrives I will run it to determine if I am pleased with the sounds.  If I am, I will not send it back.  Otherwise, I will.  Hopefully, everything else about the engine will be ok.  We will see.

Harold

Having the wrong sound file loaded at the factory is annoying but at least it can be remedied.  I am more disappointed that the Challengers do not have the kinematic drawbar for close coupling as they were advertised to have in a product preview video.  I did not pre-order because I am skeptical of anything Lionel catalogs.  I am glad I didn't and I will not be purchasing this engine as I hoped I would.  Frankly I am surprised people aren't more upset about that omission.

Harold:  the overall sound package appears to be very clear and robust.  Very impressive, actually.

Some, like me, just want to add some low speed articulation to the Sound Package.  

T4TT posted:

Having the wrong sound file loaded at the factory is annoying but at least it can be remedied.  I am more disappointed that the Challengers do not have the kinematic drawbar for close coupling as they were advertised to have in a product preview video.  I did not pre-order because I am skeptical of anything Lionel catalogs.  I am glad I didn't and I will not be purchasing this engine as I hoped I would.  Frankly I am surprised people aren't more upset about that omission.

I agree. I was also disappointed in this especially when they advertised it in the Ryan and Dave show.  I was also disappointed in the non articulated sound.  So I cancelled my order. I learned my lesson. No more preorders. I wait and see what it is like before I buy it. 

Guys, the driver issue is pretty easy to fix.  If you don't want them "in sync", just remote the single screw holding the articulated power truck on, slide it forward and rotate the drive shaft link to a new position, slide it back together and put the single screw back in.

The sounds only Lionel can fix, and obviously they're going to do just that for folks that send them back in.  Sure, it would have been nice if they were fixed when they had them all apart, but that ship has sailed.  At least they are going to make it right.

bob2 posted:

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff

I don't think that is true, if by "syncopated chuff" you mean the double chuff that can be heard at low speeds and certain angular mismatches between engines.  At several angles the chuff from a simple articulated sounds a lot like a two cylinder locomotive would.  It of course depends on the length of the exhaust stacks, so you may actually get double chuffs when both engines match.  Remember, there will be four angles, at 90 degrees from each other, that will produce single chuff.

There are no economical ways to simulate this in a scale model except for maybe slightly different gear ratios between engines and sound cams on each engine.  You could go to a two motor solution, but most of them involve butchering the boiler and rear cylinder block.  Yuk!

Lionmaster semiscale and MTH Rail King articulateds have separate motors for each set of drivers but I don't think this mechanical arrangement would 'scale up' for the full scale versions. It's kind of funny that semiscale engines could actually simulate driver phasing better than full scale ones. 

There are some halfway decent YouTube vids of the 3985 where you can clearly hear the exhaust without it getting blown out by the insane amount of whistle yanking you hear in your typical railfan vid. This is a nice example starting around 0:43:

I started this post because I was pleased to hear Lionel would add the articulated sound.   Again, thanks to Lionel.     This thread was and still is, intended to be positive and informative.     Positive that Lionel is correcting the problem and informative to anyone who may want to send theirs to Lionel.    If you want to whine, start your own thread.